Zane Smith

YOB: 1974
Experience: Commercial Fisherman, Commercial Pāua Diver
Regions: Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait, Fiordland
Interview Location: Halfmoon Bay, Stewart Island, NZ
Interview Date: 10 December 2015
Post Date: 04 July 2021; Copyright © 2021 Zane Smith and Steve Crawford

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Let's start at the beginning, Zane. What year were you born?

SMITH: 1974.

CRAWFORD: Where? 

SMITH: Invercargill.

CRAWFORD: Then directly back here to Stewart Island?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What’s the first memory you have of spending a lot of time around the water? Maybe swimming with the family on the beach, or out on the boat with your Dad?

SMITH: Probably be, yeah. But it’s just always been there. Always been part of it.

CRAWFORD: When did you first start to swim? Do you remember that?

SMITH: I've been swimming as long as I can remember. I was not allowed in the sea, until I was probably ... The water down here is a little bit cold, so I was given a wetsuit by a family friend, probably about the age of eight years old, I suppose. And then I started getting into diving. 

CRAWFORD: Diving as in freediving?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Had you taken any type of swimming lessons? My understanding is there were swimming lessons from school too?

SMITH: Yeah. There was the swimming pool down at Halfmoon Bay. 

CRAWFORD: Your entire history was after they built the swimming pool. There are some people I've talked to that pre-dated the pool, when the school swimming classes went down to Bathing Beach.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah. I was after that. I didn’t do school lessons at the beach. 

CRAWFORD: School lessons were all at the pool for you?

SMITH: Yeah, but not by much. I think my Sister, who's older than me, she did some lessons at the beach.

CRAWFORD: She was in the transition. So, the pool was fairly new then for you. Swimming lessons in the pool were one thing, but you were about eight years old when you got that wetsuit?

SMITH: Yeah, I reckon about that.

CRAWFORD: At the age of eight, were you at the stage when your folks let you go swimming on your own? Or would you still have to be swimming or diving with them around?

SMITH: Most of the time they would’ve been there. Or at least had friends with me, or other people. 

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?

SMITH: Paterson Inlet, mainly. Bravo Island - we've got family land over there. But all over the place.

CRAWFORD: I expect it started out that you were fairly confined spatially, to wherever your Parents or the people that you’re with were. Then you hit an age when things became more free. When you were eight, got your wetsuit and started doing some free diving - was that mostly in Paterson inlet? Or did you spend time all over Halfmoon Bay too?

SMITH: Yeah. Halfmoon Bay, Horseshoe Bay, Lee Bay. Anywhere bike-riding distance from Halfmoon Bay, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: You’d be swimming, you'd be diving, you'd be harvesting as well?

SMITH: Most likely just trying to harvest seafood for a feed.

CRAWFORD: What kind of seafood?

SMITH: Flounders, Scallops, Pāuas. Anything really. And spearing fish.

CRAWFORD: As a kid, I'm guessing you spent a fair bit of time on dinghies? 

SMITH: Heaps. From about the same age.

CRAWFORD: Did you get your own dinghy, or unrestricted access to one, at a certain age?

SMITH: I built one when I was ten, eleven years old. 

CRAWFORD: That’s what I'm looking for. In which case you had your own boat, and you could row yourself around from A to B whenever you wanted?

SMITH: Used to row to school quite a lot.

CRAWFORD: You took your dinghy to school? [chuckles]

SMITH: Used to row it to school, yeah. So, I could leave straight after school, walk down to the beach in front of the school, check my Craypots and the nets.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was you and your dinghy. To what extent did you spend time on other people’s boats? Going out with them on daytrips or whatever?

SMITH: Yeah. I probably started from about ... well, I was with my Father, as far back as probably six, seven, eight, nine. When he was still actively commercially fishing.

CRAWFORD: Would those have been daytrips?

SMITH: Yeah. I went fishing with him for a week, when I was about eight or nine I think. Something like that.

CRAWFORD: What kind of fishing was your Father doing at the time?

SMITH: Crayfishing.

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?

SMITH: We fished Lords River, down the east coast of the Island here.

CRAWFORD: Any linefishing on the north side of the Island?

SMITH: Yeah, I linefished. Mucking around in dinghies from the age of eight, nine onwards. Probably first of all with my Grandfather, or my Father or Mother. And after that, on my own freely by the time I was eleven, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: When did you get access to motorized boats?

SMITH: Grandfather gave me a Seagull outboard when I finished building my dinghy. I must have been about eleven, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: That outboard expanded your range of where you could go?

SMITH: It was a Seagull outboard, so it never really ever went that good. But yeah, my Father had outboards and clinker dinghies we used a lot. With my Grandfather more than anybody, to start.

CRAWFORD: Still mostly in Horseshoe, and Halfmoon, and Paterson Inlet?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: When did you start to spend more time outside of the two Bays and the Inlet?

SMITH: Probably when I started commercially Pāua diving, at thirteen years old. 

CRAWFORD: You were working for somebody, or it was your operation?

SMITH: I was commercially Pāua diving with a couple of friends of mine. Two Brothers, Stu and Richard Cave. The three of us were very close in age, and pretty thick as thieves when we were younger. Still are.

CRAWFORD: So, you started commercial Pāua diving at thirteen, in a commercial operation between the three of you?

SMITH: Yeah. Stu and Richard's Parents had a bit of Pāua quota, and we used to catch that for them in the holidays. 

CRAWFORD: Where did you fish for Pāua?

SMITH: Well, at that age we were only using a dinghy. A decent-sized dinghy, with a forty-horsepower outboard on it. We’d range from probably Smoky, the north coast of the Island, right down to Port Adventure. That was our range in that dinghy.

CRAWFORD: So, daytrips?

SMITH: Yeah, daytrips. We did the odd one right round the back, but only in really good weather. Really good forecast.

CRAWFORD: You were thirteen when you started up this commercial venture with the Cave Brothers. But you were still in school at the time? It was a part-time business?

SMITH: Yeah. It was transitional. We started leaving Stewart Island and going to high school round about that time.

CRAWFORD: High school in Invercargill?

SMITH: I went to Dunedin. Started in boarding school as Otago Boys High School.

CRAWFORD: That’s a natural breakpoint. You were up in Dunedin for the school year?

SMITH: Yeah. And you just go home on the holidays. Maybe every six or eight weeks, you come home.

CRAWFORD: And as soon as you got back to the Island, I presume you were going to be spending time back on the water - going fishing, Pāua diving, those kinds of things?

SMITH: Breaking your neck again.

CRAWFORD: When you were in Dunedin, did you spend any significant amount of time on or in the water?

SMITH: Yeah, a little bit of surfing, a little bit of diving. Same thing - I might go home with a school friend for the weekend, and go Pāua diving or just recreationally surfing. Quite a lot of surfing.

CRAWFORD: When you were surfing in the Dunedin region, whereabouts would you go?

SMITH: Oh, all around Dunedin, the back of the Peninsula. A friend of mine lived at Waikouaiti, just north of Karitane. Up that way. But yeah, anywhere along that coast north of Dunedin - and south.

CRAWFORD: That would have been weekends? Or evenings too?

SMITH: Yeah, weekends mainly. Boarding school was pretty tight on rules, so you couldn't sneak away too often. But as you get older, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you have a vehicle up there that you could borrow?

SMITH: No. It was more when we were away for the weekend with a friend. Because the hostel wouldn't really allow us to do too much of that sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: Was that a summer kind of activity? Or all year round?

SMITH: Year-round, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What years were you in Dunedin?

SMITH: '88 to '91. Four years I did at that high school.

CRAWFORD: Then you were back here to the Island for holidays. After the four years of high school in Dunedin, what happened then?

SMITH: Straight right home. 

CRAWFORD: Fulltime, right back into commercial diving?

SMITH: Fishing, diving - a mixture. Crewing on Crayfish boats, Blue Cod boats. Pāua diving as well.

CRAWFORD: When you were crewing for other people, what kind of boats were you on?

SMITH: 38-foot+ commercial Cray boats. Pāua diving in smaller boats. 

CRAWFORD: Let's focus first on the Cray operations. Where would you go fishing?

SMITH: First fulltime job I had was with Gary Neave, working down at Pegasus. We'd stay away for up to ... our longest trip we did was thirteen days. The Toanui was about a 38-foot rounded bulge - planked boat. Fished down at Pegasus for a season with him. 

CRAWFORD: What was the season, roughly?

SMITH: Crayfish - we started about the end of June, fished right through to about the end of February. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was one year, you did that?

SMITH: Yeah. One year with Gary.

CRAWFORD: What did you do when you weren't fishing Cray?

SMITH: Pāua dive.

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?

SMITH: Everywhere around Stewart Island, some in Fiordland. 

CRAWFORD: Pāua diving in Fiordland?

SMITH: That's when Stu got a bigger boat. In the off-season, when I wasn't Crayfishing, I'd go with him, and we'd go Pāua diving all over. Right round Fiordland, as well as Stewart Island.

CRAWFORD: When you went Pāua diving in Fiordland, whereabouts up there?

SMITH: Oh, everywhere. From Sand Hill Point, which is at the west end of Te Waewae Bay, right round along the south shore ... Presy, Chalky, Dusky, Fingers, Breaksea, Daggs. We might not have gone too far past Breaksea with Stu's boat. Later on with my own boat, I fished right up to Big Bay.

CRAWFORD: To begin, when you were fishing Fiordland - it was Pāua diving mostly, or Pāua diving exclusively?

SMITH: Exclusively Pāua diving in my off-seasons. I didn't do much Cray fishing up that way until I got my own boat.

CRAWFORD: But that was later. You were on Stu's boat, to start?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was for one year - or did it extend beyond that?

SMITH: Oh, yeah. Often, in the off-seasons, for several years.

CRAWFORD: What's the next natural break in your fishing pattern? When you got a boat of your own?

SMITH: After that one season with Gary, I did another four seasons with Colin Hopkins - Crayfising down the bottom of Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: Back to Pāua diving again, when you weren't Crayfishing? 

SMITH: Yeah. Stewart Island and Fiordland, both. Mainly around Stewart Island, but definitely ranging into Fiordland up to Breaksea.

CRAWFORD: So, you were all over the place, on a regular basis?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: With Stu and his Brother?

SMITH: Yeah, but Richard was doing something else.

CRAWFORD: Just the two of you then?

SMITH: We had another local guy as dinghy boy.

CRAWFORD: When did Pāua quota come in? Was there already quota by the time you and Stu came into the fishery?

SMITH: Yes. But not by much. Probably would have been about ... just guessing here, probably '86. It might've been two years before we started. 

 CRAWFORD: So, you guys had to either acquire or lease quota?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And that was true for Fiordland as well?

SMITH: When we first started, it was all one area. From Waitaki River mouth, right round to about here I think it was - off Jackson's. 

CRAWFORD: All of southern South Island?

SMITH: That was all PAUA 5. 

CRAWFORD: But I've seen lines on PMAC charts that are A, B, C or whatever. They subdivided it after?

SMITH: That's right. When we originally started diving, it was all one area - just PAUA 5. And then they realized that too much pressure was going on Stewart Island, because there's always someplace sheltered you can dive round here. So, they split it into three areas. PAUA 5A is from the middle of Te Waewae Bay round, B is Stewart Island, D is from there round to Waitaki River mouth. So, you've got A, B and D.

CRAWFORD: What happened to C?

SMITH: I don't know what happened to C. [both chuckle] I think it may have been put aside for Ruapuke, but that's not a commercial area - it's closed to commercial fishing.

CRAWFORD: Alright. I'm guessing that pattern of Crayfishing and Pāua diving in those places, continued for a while. When did you get your own boat?

SMITH: 1996, I think I bought my first boat. 

CRAWFORD: How big?

SMITH: 40-foot Morgan hull.

CRAWFORD: Specifically for Pāua and Crayfishing?

SMITH: More so Crayfish, but I did Pāua in the offseason, with that. And School Shark.

CRAWFORD: You did School Shark as well? Was that setnetting?

SMITH: Just longlining. 

CRAWFORD: Was that a relatively minor part of your fishing activities?

SMITH: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: With the new boat, overall what was the split in time spent on your main fishing activities between Crayfish and Pāua?

SMITH: Crayfish would be July until January, Christmas - depending on how good the season was. 

CRAWFORD: So, six or seven months. 

SMITH: Yeah. Probably six, roughly. If I'm not Muttonbirding. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Let's put a placeholder on that activity, please. In 1996 you got your first boat - that's roughly nineteen years till now. During that nineteen year period, were there any other significant changes in vessels or anything else?

SMITH: Yeah. The Fugitive was my first 40-foot Morgan. The first boat I had. I had that until 2001, I think it was. 

CRAWFORD: Then were you running two boats? Or you sold the first one?

SMITH: Sold one, bought another. Sold the Fugitive 2001, straightaway bought another one. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did your fishing activities remain the same? It was just the boat that changed?

SMITH: Similar. Only the two seasons down the bottom of Stewart Island for Crayfish with the Fugitive. With the new boat, the Te Wai, it was a bit bigger, it had a bit more capacity. She could stay away longer, more fuel, more water, more everything. Then I moved up to Fiordland, and started Crayfishing out of Breaksea Sound. They seemed to be a whole lot easier up there to catch my quota quickly, so we spent less time Crayfishing. It might've been from June through until November - if that. June till September. Because I was still getting the same amount of quota, but it was a hell of a lot easier to catch it up there. And then from that point on, it was Pāua. So, I would have done another two years down here, and it would have been three years up in Fiordland, with that same boat. When I bought the new boat, I was only fishing for Crayfish in Fiordland - Dusky to Breaksea. The new boat from 2001 through till 2006 or 2007, something like that. Crayfishing, Pāua. Same sort of thing. Crayfishing Fiordland from June until September, October, November - till we caught all the quota. And then, Pāua diving through the summer period, maybe until February - and then we were setnetting for School Shark until the next Cray season.

CRAWFORD: What year was that, when you started setnetting for School Shark? Roughly?

SMITH: Probably about 2002. 

CRAWFORD: And where would you go setnetting?

SMITH: Everywhere around Stewart Island, right out to the Traps. Right up as far as the boundary.

CRAWFORD: School Shark is a quota species as well?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: You had to go and acquire quota for that, as well as your Crayfish quota? Purchase or lease or whatever?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: What kind of gear for the setnetting? What kind of stretched mesh size, what kind of strap length?

SMITH: Just gillnet, 7 1/2-inch monofilament gillnet. A kilometre of net we used to set a day, leave it overnight, check it the next day.

CRAWFORD: What kind of water depth, roughly?

SMITH: Oh, anywhere from three or four fathom, out to eighty fathom.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was the next major change in your fishing activities? Was there a new boat that came in more recently? Or is that the boat you are operating with now?

SMITH: I sold the Te Wai about 2006, 2007. Started my flying career.

CRAWFORD: Right. When did you start flying?

SMITH: I started training in 2003, between everything else. 

CRAWFORD: Was this fixed-wing or helicopters?

SMITH: Helicopters only.

CRAWFORD: When did you get your commercial licence?

SMITH: 2005. 

CRAWFORD: When did flying become a significant part of your commercial work life?

SMITH: I worked over in Australia for a couple of winters, a couple of dry seasons. Building hours. Back to New Zealand, worked in Wanaka one summer period for a couple of months - four months maybe. Got my machine at Stewart Island in 2008. First heli on Stewart Island.

CRAWFORD: When you were flying here, was it 30%, 50%, 70% of your work time?

SMITH: Flying would have been well over that. 

CRAWFORD: Almost fulltime flying here at Stewart Island?

SMITH: Yeah, definitely. When I had a machine based here, fulltime. It was taking up all of my time. Pāua diving came second. I had to dive my quota in the winter.

CRAWFORD: So, a significant reduction in your time for fishing?

SMITH: Yeah. Well I just put the flying first, because that was the business I was focussing on. Did the diving in the winter, when there were less people around, less tourists around. Less activity for the helicopter. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Were you still doing Crayfishing?

SMITH: No. The Crayfishing stopped when the bigger boat went. When I sold the bigger boat, and I started flying, I wasn't doing Crayfishing then. But I was still Pāua diving.

CRAWFORD: I think you said you sold the bigger boat around 2006, 2007?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Then you were in a mixed flying and Pāua diving world. Does that pretty much bring us up to the present?

SMITH: I guess so. From probably 2008 or '09 till '12 or '13, I was pretty full with the helicopter business. 

CRAWFORD: So, just a bit of Pāua diving through that period?

SMITH: Yeah. And it was usually during the winter, when things were quiet.

CRAWFORD: This past while you've been flying in Papua New Guinea ...

SMITH: Past eighteen months I’ve been in Papua New Guinea, flying helicopter.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I think that brings us up to the present. But we previously put a placeholder on your Muttonbirding experiences. My understanding is that it's something you started at a very early age, and it has become engrained in your seasonal calendar? When you go, it's for a month to six weeks? That type of thing?

SMITH: For me it's definitely a month. Sometimes six weeks, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Where do you go when you're Muttonbirding?

SMITH: I Muttonbird on Herekopare, out in front of Halfmoon Bay. You can see it straight out in front of the Bay here.

CRAWFORD: That's the one island you've been to year after year?

SMITH: There's been other islands I go to, just to get a feed off - now and again. That we have a right to go to. But the one that's where the Family's always gone, we have a hut we can stay at - that's Herekopare.

CRAWFORD: You're harvesting at night, processing the birds. When you're out there, are you fishing in any way?

SMITH: Yeah, of course. You're going to get feeds of Pāuas off the rocks, either in gumboots at low tide or put a wetsuit on. Do some fishing in a dinghy out in front of the hut. Round the Island on good weather days.

CRAWFORD: What kind of fishing? Linefishing for Blue Cod?

SMITH: Yeah. And the odd setnet for Butterfish or Greenbone, whatever you like to call them.

CRAWFORD: That would be just a normal process of harvesting, while you and the Family are out Muttonbirding?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Harvesting Muttonbirds on the land, but also discarding after processing. Also harvesting fish and Pāua nearby?

SMITH: Just for food, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Right. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: If you had to estimate the degree to which Māori culture and knowledge has affected your understanding of New Zealand's marine ecosystems generally, maybe White Pointers specifically, would you say that was Very High, High, Medium, Low or Very Low? Has Māori knowledge had a big impact on you?

SMITH: It's not so much an impact. It's just me. It's the way I've been brought up and grown up. The way I go about my day. 

CRAWFORD: You're immersed in it?

SMITH: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That's a High, more likely a Very High.

SMITH: Yeah. Not by choice. That's just the way it is.

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. Same thing, but this time for the Science side of things. if you had to estimate the degree to which Science culture and knowledge has affected your understanding of New Zealand's marine ecosystems generally, maybe White Pointers specifically, would you say that was Very High, High, Medium, Low or Very Low?

SMITH: Put it at Pretty High. Yeah. I really enjoy Scientists like Malcolm Francis [NIWA] and Clinton Duffy [DOC]. They don't tell you "I think this, or I think that" It's like "The evidence says this, or says that." I like the way that they operate when they come up with their observations. Not only for Sharks, but all sorts of things.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever go out with the Clinton and Malcom on their White Pointer tagging trips?

SMITH: No.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever been to any of the public meetings or presentations at the community centre?

SMITH: I don't think I have. Oh, I may have been to the odd one. 

CRAWFORD: But you've picked up a fair amount of Science knowledge from the internet or tv?

SMITH: I like talking to Clinton and Malcom. Very knowledgeable. They're the best in New Zealand.

CRAWFORD: If you picked some of the most important things you've learned about White Pointers from them, from the Science knowledge system, what would those be?

SMITH: They have a very low metabolism. That they don't need a whole hell of a lot of fat to sustain their whole migration. 

CRAWFORD: What do you know about their migration?

SMITH: That some of them leave here and go east coast of Aussie, or up to New Caledonia, that way. 

CRAWFORD: Much further afield than what I think most people had expected?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: In terms of that kind of migration, do you have any sense about why it might take place? More specifically, why the White Pointers come back to Stewart Island?

SMITH: I think, from talking to Malcom and Clinton, that they're coming back to these Island to feed on the Seal pups. Clinton says when they go away, they don't feed a lot - if at all - when they're doing the migration. According to Clinton, I think he said a medium-sized, 3-4 metre White Pointer can survive on 30 kilos of Whale blubber for the whole migration. That's not a lot. That's not even a fish case worth of blubber. 

CRAWFORD: Was there any indication, during this migration, about whether there were places where White Pointer reproduction was happening? Here or someplace else?

SMITH: I don't know. Clinton would know about that.

CRAWFORD: Had there been any discussion about White Pointer mating from the previous generations, the old-timers, or your contemporaries here? Anybody ever see anything that maybe looked like mating behaviour, or fresh wounds? Anything like that?

SMITH: Not that I know of. The only thing I have some knowledge on is that they could be breeding in the Kaipara Harbour on the west coast of Auckland there. Apparently they've seen some pretty large females there, and the odd very, very small juvenile, in Kiapoura Harbour. But I don't know enough about it. It's not my end of the country.

CRAWFORD: That could be the birthing side of reproduction. In contrast to the courtship and mating between females and males. 

SMITH: Maybe. I don't know enough. 

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: What's the first memory you have of a White Pointer, either hearing about it or seeing it?

SMITH: There was always, on average, probably one a year that was caught. That everybody knew about. Whether it was dragged up on the beach at Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay or somewhere. There was usually probably one a year on average, sometimes two, sometimes none. 

CRAWFORD: So, as a kid - say, less than ten - you remember seeing these animals hauled up?

SMITH: Oh, yeah. Definitely.

CRAWFORD: At that age, when you first saw these White Pointers, what was the impression you had of them? Did people talk about them in a particular way, or explain why they were caught and brought to the shore? Anything like that?

SMITH: Not really. I think there was a bit of a challenge-thing to try and catch one, I suppose, for the fishermen of that era. They might have seen it is a bit of a threat, or a bit of a challenge, to try and catch one of these great big things, I suppose. 

CRAWFORD: I know it's difficult to go back in time, and try to figure out what the different motivations were ... one of the principal motivations I've heard about was risk management. This idea that if a White Pointer came into the Bays, it had crossed a line. That it was perceived to be posing a risk - especially to people in the water, swimming and bathing at Bathing Beach and the other beaches. If a White Pointer crossed the line, the community responded by putting out some type of gear in order to remove the animal, remove the risk?

SMITH: That's correct, yeah.

CRAWFORD: That was your understanding as well?

SMITH: Yeah. Particularly my friends, Stu and Richard Cave - their Father Joe, he had specifically made a net or two to catch them at that time of year. Because he had four kids - they were always running around on the beach from a pretty young age. Just playing in the surf and waves, right out in front of their house. It's exposed to the open water. So, he was concerned about that. When you see the Sharks around, you've got your kids down the beach every day. So, that was his motivation, for sure. He was the only one at the time that actually had nets specifically made up for that reason - for the safety of his family. But when they caught one, they disappeared. You didn't get another one that year, generally. If you did, you got it right at the start of the season, probably straight after Christmas. You might get another one later in the year, but once you got one, they just sort of seemed to disappear. They got very wary. They've always been very elusive. 

CRAWFORD: Getting back to your first impression ... even from an early age, would it be fair to say that you perceived White Pointers as having been removed from the water because they posed a risk to people?

SMITH: Yeah, by some - for sure. Definitely for Joe. Four kids.

CRAWFORD: Was Joe a commercial fisherman?

SMITH: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Was he a setnetter?

SMITH: Only for bait for his Craypots. 

CRAWFORD: So, these big Shark nets were specialty gear, made up specifically for the purpose of White Pointers?

SMITH: That's right.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember seeing these nets out there?

SMITH: Yes. I've helped set them myself. Before Great Whites were protected, we set them specifically for the same reason. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how long were they? What kind of mesh?

SMITH: Two hundred metres of line, I think they were, each. Maybe not even that - a hundred and fifty metres?

CRAWFORD: Two different straps? Three?

SMITH: Straps?

CRAWFORD: Lengths of setnet.

SMITH: Length of rope - yeah, about 150 metres long. And the nets are quite deep. I think Joe's Wife Helen may have had something to do with building them. She maybe made them. The mesh was orange string, and the squares were specifically designed to ...

CRAWFORD: Like a half-metre?

SMITH: To fit round the gills of the Great White Shark, yeah. And they worked.

CRAWFORD: So, the entanglement was at the gill?

SMITH: Same as any gillnet, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Well, sometimes you get fish that get their bodies wrapped up in them. Others, the actual gills get caught.

SMITH: Generally though, most gill nets the fish is too big to bounce around, and it's too small to swim straight through. Quite selective, gillnets. These were built for gillnetting Great White Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Were those nets always around, in your lifetime?

SMITH: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Your Dad was also talking about old times - barrels with baited hooks. 

SMITH: Yeah, 45-gallon drums with a hook made out of a crowbar or jimmybar. Leg of venison, or something like that, on a chain. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember those?

SMITH: Yeah. Still a couple hanging around my Father's house. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember them fishing, though?

SMITH: No, I've never used them myself. Not those big ones. But my Grandfather ... they were his hooks. 

CRAWFORD: So, back in the day, drums and hooks were the principal White Pointer removal device? Those baited barrels?

SMITH: That's right, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Were Joe's White Pointer nets the first like that?

SMITH: Yeah, I think so. They were the only ones I've ever known of, on the Island.

CRAWFORD: I'm trying to figure out when the baited barrels were no longer being used, and the White Pointer nets started to be used.

SMITH: When you see a barrel now, it seems like quite a primitive method ...

CRAWFORD: Not when you talk to guys in Otago Harbour. 

SMITH: Well, they certainly worked. But some of them, the hooks got straightened out - and they're pretty sizeable hooks. Made of jimmybar or crowbar that's been bent around.

CRAWFORD: Yeah. We're talking three quarters of an inch, or whatever.

SMITH: Or more, yeah.

CRAWFORD: I was going to bring this up later, but since we're talking about White Pointer control in the Bays - was it just Halfmoon Bay and Horseshoe Bay where, if the White Pointers came in, the gear would go out to remove them?

SMITH: Just Halfmoon Bay, Horseshoe Bay. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. There has been a fair amount of discussion about people shooting White Pointers. Depending on who I hear the account from, sometimes it was done just on principle, sometimes it was for shits and giggles because shooting a rifle into the water is not very effective, and even if it did work - you've got a tonne of White Pointer carcass, and most people are not geared to lift that fish out of the water. Or even tow it, sometimes. Was it the case that, if a White Pointer was in those Bays, that they would shoot at a White Pointer anyways - just to try and kill it?

SMITH: I think they'd have a go anyway. Even if it was someplace that wasn't in these Bays ... just because they feared them, I suppose. And they didn't like them being around. Maybe some of the other fishermen might have wanted them for the jewelry, for the teeth. 

CRAWFORD: Well, that is s something that goes a long way back in history. 

SMITH: That was a motivation for me. For ones that were taken out, was to try and use as much as you can of the body. But there's not really a lot on them, other than the teeth, of any value.

CRAWFORD: What about the liver?

SMITH: There's a thing called squalene they're after in the liver. And it's not in such a high percentage in White Shark liver, I don't think. It is in the liver, but I don't know whether it's worthwhile people taking it. It's not really that valuable.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear anybody talk about flesh? Feeding on flesh from White Pointers?

SMITH: Eating Great White Shark? No. No one ever, that I know of, has eaten it. I don't think it's that suitable to eat.

CRAWFORD: I've heard some people say that, depending on the circumstances, it's completely edible. But that's different.

SMITH: Yeah, I don’t know. I've never eaten it myself.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's wrap up with the White Pointer nets. When an animal was sighted, and the nets went out, roughly what percentage of deployments would the nets actually catch a White Pointer?

SMITH: Oh, gee. If there was a few sightings, Joe put the nets out. Usually within a couple of weeks, you'd get one. And then, that would be it. You may have them still out there, but that was pretty much it. It seemed to be that when one got caught, you didn't seem to get another one.

CRAWFORD: I'm trying to get a feel for how many times when were White Pointers sighted, the nets were deployed - but did not catch?

SMITH: Don't know. That would be a question you'd have to ask Joe.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I'll follow up with him on that. But if I heard you correctly, you said on average you might see one of two White Pointers in the Bays over the course of the year?

SMITH: Probably, yeah. You might stretch that to three or four, if you were lucky. But, not many sightings, no. Very elusive.

CRAWFORD: You also spent a substantial amount of time in Paterson Inlet when you were a kid. Did you ever see any White Pointers in the Inlet?

SMITH: No.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear of anybody who saw White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?

SMITH: No. 

CRAWFORD: So, if they were there - it was a rare occurrence?

SMITH: Yes. Or they were just elusive.

CRAWFORD: Right. A rare occurrence in terms of the observation, is what I meant.

SMITH: Definitely. It was unheard of to see one in the Inlet, as far as I know.

CRAWFORD: Where else around Stewart Island have you heard of people seeing or encountering White Pointers?

SMITH: There was a Whale stranding, 288 Pilot Whales - it was one of the biggest strandings.

CRAWFORD: Was this the big stranding in Doughboy?

SMITH: Yeah. Because all of the Whales that were stranded in there, there was a whole lot of smell, obviously, washing out in the water. So, we thought "Hell, we'll go and set these nets of Joe's." Because Great White Sharks weren't protected at that point. So, Stu actually went round and set the nets. He went round looking for them in the net, but the nets actually disappeared. We thought it must have got rolled up in a storm. I had my first fishing boat, and I was going down one day, and stopped in, and actually found it had drifted way in here. And it had a Great White Shark in it. 

CRAWFORD: The net had been set just off the stranding?

SMITH: Yeah, out in the Bay a bit further. It was quite a reasonable size length, and they're quite deep. Maybe 25 feet.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, you mentioned that before. So, Stu had set the nets off the stranding, and then couldn't find them?

SMITH: And he said: "If you're down that way, could you have just a quick nosey." Because I had pots all around there. So, I went in there, and I couldn't see it. He gave me the gps coordinates where he set it. But I could see these floats way in here. "Oh, that could be it." So, I steamed in. It was a long way from where he'd set it. And it had a Shark in it. He caught that one. 

CRAWFORD: Shark was dead?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: It had rolled up the net?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Other than that instance off Doughboy, did you or anyone else fish the big Shark nets anywhere else along the Stewart Island shoreline? Or in Paterson Inlet?

SMITH: No. That was just a one-off, because we thought we might catch one there because they'd be coming in to feed on the Pilot Whales. 

CRAWFORD: Right. And this was pre-protection ...

SMITH: Of course.

CRAWFORD: So, there was no prohibition about possessing the jaws or teeth or whatever?

SMITH: No, no.

CRAWFORD: In terms of ancestry, in terms of Māori ancestry in particular, is there any kind of provision for post-protection ceremonial harvest of White Pointers?

SMITH: No. I think that should be allowed. But, no.

CRAWFORD: It's pretty clear, even based on the literature that I've seen, that archaelogical artefacts have shown that White Pointer teeth in particular were pretty prominent in Māori materials, both pre- and post-contact. Were those kinds of things ever discussed at the Iwi level?

SMITH: Not that I'm aware of. Also, the skin is used for sandpaper as well. There's absolutely a place for the harvest of them.

CRAWFORD: But it's not just an economic thing, for trade. There's mana and other cultural considerations as well.

SMITH: Absolutely.

CRAWFORD: Some people have talked about attacks of White Pointers on birds, where the bird is released, as well. So, that kind of fits in there. Let's go back in time a bit more. Without focussing so much on Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay, or even Paterson Inlet for that matter ... what was the common knowledge, what did the old-timers say about White Pointers in the region of Foveaux Strait and Stewart Island? When you were growing up, what was the common knowledge in terms of where they were around ,and when they were around?

SMITH: I heard a few stories, different ones that caught at different encounters. Not many, really. They're pretty elusive. From my Grandfather's era, and my Father's era. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of encounters did you hear about?

SMITH: They might have been cleaning fish. Sitting in Smoky or Ruggedy, cleaning fish - and one would circle the boat, and they'd try to shoot it. Or they were Blue Cod lining round the back of West Ruggedy, and one came up and grabbed the rudder of the boat, or the rail of the boat and bent the rail. There wasn't too many stories of them round about the Cape. I suppose more so around the north and northeast side of the Island. But there's no real, like "Oh, they're only around here"

CRAWFORD: Right. But some of that could be a reflection of the fact that nowadays, the vast majority of Islanders have homes on this particular shore of the Island, the northeast shore.

SMITH: That's right.

CRAWFORD: And it's not that the other shores aren't travelled and fished - they are. But there's going to be more people, and more traffic, and more potential observations on this northeast shore of the Island. 

SMITH: Yeah, possibly. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: But back in your twenties, was there any sense that there was a seasonality to the White Pointers around Stewart Island? You started talking about this before.

SMITH: It seemed to be, in later times when Joe started using his nets, that there were sightings around that autumn time.

CRAWFORD: 'Autumn' here, meaning when?

SMITH: February, March, April. 

CRAWFORD: But were there more sightings in the summer? Or the same? Or fewer?

SMITH: Just historically, I think the main time of year when people did see them was maybe even January, but more February to April. That seemed to be the time when they were sightings. 

CRAWFORD: They're relatively rare instances?

SMITH: Yeah, they are. 

CRAWFORD: To the point of somebody having thirty years on the water, and maybe only one or two observations of a White Pointer?

SMITH: That's right. Like, I just thought I've been unlucky, because you hear these stories. But we're talking about stories over a couple of generations. Back until five or six years ago, there were just a handful of stories. But they're talked about regularly because it's sort of like an exciting topic.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, White Pointer observations around Stewart Island are sporadic, they're rare, and they're spatially distributed ... there might be some kind of regional north and eastern effect, which may or may not be influenced by current locations of Human settlement, with some notable exceptions. But in terms of the old-timers, when you were coming up through the system, did they talk about any distinct pattern or cycles or circuits or anything like that?

SMITH: No, not really. It wasn't until Joe started setting his nets. And he only seemed to have them out in that late summer-autumn time. Because that was when the sightings, if there were any sightings, that's when they were. They never really had them out any other time of year.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms specifically of the Titi Islands, that's part of your historical range. Over different periods, you've spent considerable time in that area. Crayfishing, Codpotting, Angling, Pāua diving, Muttonbirding, general boating. In total, how many White Pointers have you seen around the Titi Islands? There was that first one you talked about, roughly in 2008 - the breach attack on the Mollymawk ...

SMITH: Since then, heaps round the Islands. Usually when we're trying to catch a feed of Cod or whatever. Or setting nets for Greenbone, Butterfish - which I do commercially, as well. 

CRAWFORD: Since the beginning of cage dive operations, what about your sightings of White Pointers elsewhere along the northeast side of the Island?

SMITH: None.

CRAWFORD: So, localized to the Titi Island region specifically?

SMITH: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Going back in time ... For a port like Halfmoon Bay that has an active commercial fishery, where boats might be cleaning as they steam back to the wharf, or if they're not finished they might stop in at nearby, protected embayments like Deadman's, where one or more boats could moor and finish their fish cleaning. In some cases, fishermen at these fish cleaning stations dump their frames and waste, then leave without ever seeing any Sharks. In other cases, they see exactly what you saw - one or more White Pointers coming round to hoover up their Cod frames. At least the ones the birds don't get first.

SMITH: Anything the Mollys don't get, yeah. The Mollys are pretty good.

CRAWFORD: But also there's this idea that, when the White Pointers show up at these active fish cleaning stations, the Birds typically fly off just before arrival. 

SMITH: Oh, they do - yeah. You know when one's around. The Mollys will take off.

CRAWFORD: When I've heard about White Pointers taking seabirds at the surface, like what you described, the majority of times the bird is spit out. 

SMITH: Yeah. Maybe it's a learning thing for the fish. It could be playing.

CRAWFORD: Yes, it could be young White Pointers that are learning. It could be extreme hunger, but then just not the taste they wanted.

SMITH: There's some theory that they can sense the fat level of something, and then just think "Ah, that's not for me." I've heard that they feed on fledgling Albatross and Mollymawk chicks. Maybe they can tell the difference. If they bite one "Oh, that's got a good fat level" Like a Muttonbird. Maybe an Albatross is no different. A young one that’s just fledging would have a hell of a lot higher fat content, it would be worth eating more so than the adult one which is scrawny.

CRAWFORD: Right. The White Pointers are also obviously interacting with the fish frames or discards from fish cleaning. Of all of the natural food for White Pointers that could be in this region, were you ever told by the old-timers that there are certain times or certain places to stay away from because the White Pointers would be hunting Seals?

SMITH: No. I think we all know now, that Sharks are here to feed on the Seal population.

CRAWFORD: But that's in a more modern context. 

SMITH: If we thought, or took notice of that, myself and Stu and Richard Cave - we wouldn't have been diving all out round these Islands, all up this shore, all through late summer.

CRAWFORD: No, I don't think you would. 

SMITH: If we had any idea back then ... there's no way we'd do it now. But back then we were doing it all the time. And we never had a problem.

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. 'We never had a problem' ... that doesn't mean the White Pointers weren't there. 

SMITH: Absolutely. They were there. 

CRAWFORD: Well, we don't even know. Maybe they really weren't even around that much, back then. We don't see them, we don't know. We can maybe infer that they're around. 

SMITH: Knowing what I know now, they were there for sure. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. But there could be other things going on. The next step in these specific question has to do with changes in Seal abundance here over the years. When I spoke with your Dad and others of his vintage, I learned that there has been a dramatic increase in Seal abundance at least since the 1950s, 1960s. During your lifetime, did you see that sharp increase in Seal abundance? Or were they already hitting medium abundance by the time you were a kid?

SMITH: I think they were medium abundant by the time I was a kid. Although they were not as abundant as they are now. So, they're still on the rebuild. I think they were still hunting Seals for the fur up until the '60s maybe? Cause I talked to an old-timer about it, and he told me about a pallet of Sealskins they had down in an old cave tunnelled into the hill down by the wharf, with an old heavy steel door. I think there was a pallet of Seal fur there, right up until the '60s.

CRAWFORD: I've heard some things about protection for the Seals starting much earlier than that, but not really being enforced until the '60s, '70s. But everybody agrees that the Fur Seal numbers have been going up dramatically?

SMITH: My Father's generation really noticed it, for sure. 

CRAWFORD: Prior to that, Seals had actually been a rarity for a fairly long period of time. My understanding is that was true around the Titi Islands as well. Some people say they were still more abundant around the Islands than they were along the shoreline of Stewart Island. 

SMITH: That's always been the case, yeah. The Seal rookeries aren't really on the mainland so much. They're on the islands. All these islands, even down south.

CRAWFORD: But when you were a kid, they were still at relatively low abundance, compared to today?

SMITH: Yeah, they were lower abundance. 

CRAWFORD: What I'm ultimately trying to get to is ... and there's two ways of me coming in on it ... one of them has to do with observations of White Pointer attacks on Seals. You've seen a White Pointer attack on a seabird. Have you ever seen anything you thought was a White Pointer attack on a Seal?

SMITH: Absolutely. I just never witnessed the action happen. But I've seen the result. 

CRAWFORD: 'Result' as in a fresh kill?

SMITH: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Where did you see that? Do you remember?

SMITH: I've seen it on a couple or three occasions. A floating Seal that's got its guts half-ripped out, or something like that. 

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts, roughly?

SMITH: I'm just trying to think. I can't put my finger on exactly where, but I think more around maybe Port Adventure. I've seen it two or three times. 

CRAWFORD: It could also have been a carcass from some other kind of death ...

SMITH: It could have been run over by a boat. 

CRAWFORD: Could've been a prop, could've been a Shark. The thing is, that if it was a White Pointer, you'd almost expect that if it was an attack, you'd figure it would've been lunch for somebody. 

SMITH: I don't know. I don’t necessarily think that they eat everything they kill, for some reason. Don't know. I've seen some pretty substantial bites out of a Whale that we saw floating one day out here. 

CRAWFORD: South of Codfish?

SMITH: Yeah. I was fishing with Colin Hopkins, and we stopped - there was a big Whale, very white because it was decomposed, but it had some serious halfmoons taken out of it. 

CRAWFORD: Were there any White Pointers on it, at the time?

SMITH: No.

CRAWFORD: Had anybody else that you knew seen White Pointer attacks on Seals?

SMITH: Yeah, the odd one. They said "Ah, it was still alive, there was still blood running out of it." They had either seen the attack, or seen the result of something very, very recent.

CRAWFORD: Would it be fair to say that even those observations were fairly rare?

SMITH: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Considering the increasing number of Seals out there?

SMITH: Yes, that's right.

CRAWFORD: We don't really get to know what these White Pointers are eating - especially now that they're protected. I've got a request in to DOC for their White Pointer incidental catch records, that by law are supposed to be submitted to them. I have not heard back from DOC. Somehow, I doubt they will share those records with me. But to the extent that sometimes those incidental catches, especially if the White Pointer's body is retrieved, we get to know things that we otherwise wouldn't know. Since they've been protected, we don't get to just go out and cut open White Pointer stomachs. But of all the places I've heard of White Pointer stomachs being cut and examined, it was actually pre-protection - especially Joe's big Shark nets in Halfmoon Bay and Horseshoe Bay. Those fish - they were actually brought in, rather than deep-sixed. I know fishermen. I know that one of the first things that's going to happen is they'll cut it open to see what it was eating. How many of the White Pointers that came from Joe's nets into the Halfmoon Bay wharf did you actually see stomach contents for? Do you remember?

SMITH: They caught two in a net, just about 200 metres off Halfmoon Bay wharf. The stomach contents of those I saw. One was eleven, and one was a nine, I think. Both caught in Joe Cave's net, both in the same net. It was in January, late January. Cause we were all jet-skiing and playing around in Halfmoon Bay. There's a photo of me holding the jaw open of one of them. I was in the Southland Times. The guy that was managing Joe Cave's fish factory at the time, Merv - me and Merv holding the jaw open. They had many Codframes in them, those two. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I'd like to switch to something I've heard from different people who have talked about the vertical component of the water column as being important to understand White Pointers. The idea that the White Pointers can be there, but depending on the depth of the water and water clarity and all the rest of it, a Human at the surface simply would not see them. But you're a Pāua diver, and you have spent a considerable amount of time freediving in the water. In general, what would be a typical breath-hold for you on a freedive?

SMITH: Depends where you're working. If I'm in the shallows around here, it might only be less than 30 seconds at a time. Even around here in deeper water, it might be ... I don't know, maybe a minute. 

CRAWFORD: You're going down and up. When you're at the top, there's a dinghy that you're dropping your Pāua off at?

SMITH: Close by. He'll be within a hundred metres, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: In all of the time that you've spent Pāua diving here, Fiordland and everyplace ... have you ever see a White Pointer under the water?

SMITH: No. 

CRAWFORD: While you've been Pāua diving, have you ever seen a White Pointer at the surface?

SMITH: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let me add something else into the mix. I've heard from several different perspectives, including a completely accidental observation of some flotsam that the current was carrying past the Shark diving cage, but also people that were accidentally or on-purpose putting floating things on the surface of the water, like newspapers.

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah, that's what the old-timers reckoned used to bring them up. If there was one around, you get a piece of newspaper or cabbage leaves ... making tea, and cabbage leaves ... they'll come up and nose the thing. Because it's sitting on the surface. They weren't coming up and trying to breach.

CRAWFORD: No, it's not an attack at all.

SMITH: Inquisitive.

CRAWFORD: It's almost as if they can't help themselves. If something's floating up there at the surface, they just have to check it out.

SMITH: Yeah. I've heard the same. Newspapers, cabbage leaves. All the stories from that generation before, aren't very common - as you've probably worked out. When they did show up around a boat, it was like "Let's catch that thing." I think the Sharks are very aware of that. They've always been there, knowing full well that if they show themselves, they might end up dead. So, they just remain elusive, and just stick to the peripheral, if you like. Just out of view. But they're there. Picking up Codframes if they can get a feed. Or checking out a Pāua diver from a distance. Or something like that. We don't know they're there, but I'm sure they've always been there. 

CRAWFORD: You're kind of tying two different points together, in my mind anyways. One of them is that - these White Pointers are out there, and we just do not see them ...

SMITH: That used to be the case. Now they're not getting taken out. They're not getting caught and hooked - no one's trying to catch them. So, now they're bold. 

CRAWFORD: I think you are the second person to raise that idea, specifically. From my perspective, the fancy ecology name for it is 'artificial selection.' If in the past - pre-protection - if the more inquisitive, or more mobile, or more active, or more aggressive White Pointers were being removed from the population by the baited drums, or shooting, or the nets ... then, by definition, the White Pointers that are left are less inquisitive, mobile, active or aggressive. And if those behavioural tendencies are actually heritable, that effect can be passed down to reflect in the next generation of White Pointers.

SMITH: Absolutely.

CRAWFORD: This idea that Humans themselves may have played an important role in shaping the behavioural characteristic of the White Pointer population.

SMITH: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: And the idea that protection, when it comes in, it says "Thou shalt not kill White Pointers." Then the natural behavioural tendencies of the White Pointers that were suppressed by Human culling, those tendencies could re-emerge back into the population.

SMITH: It sort of changes over time.

CRAWFORD: It changes back to its previous condition, which means you're going to have more White Pointers of the more curious, bold, mobile, active varieties. 

SMITH: That's exactly right, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Is that pretty much a Zane Smith way of thinking? Or is that something that your contemporaries have talked about as well? Or is that something you picked up from the old-timers? Where did that way of thinking come from?

SMITH: That's something that I've seen and decided for myself. It makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. That's exactly what happened, yeah. Now that you're not taking the odd one out, they're getting bold. Look at any wild animal ... look at Bears - you'd know firsthand in Canada. Bears, rubbish tins. It's just a wild animal that's trying to get food, or get something for easy. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Before we get to the effects of cage dive operations, let's finish off the idea of White Pointer aggregations. Spatially or temporally. You've fished all over the place, Fiordland, Foveaux Strait, right round Stewart Island. And you've heard things that you trust from contemporaries or the old-timers. When you think of White Pointer hotspots or aggregations in this general region, where do you think of?

SMITH: Not that I know of. I've heard of one in a place in Breaksea Sound that was there. The fishing boats were off one day, anchored up because the weather was no good. And they saw one swimming around Breaksea. That's the only one I really heard about that way.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of residency, have you ever heard anyone talk about White Pointers that stick around in a particular place for extended periods of time? They're big fish, they often have individual markings that can be recognized. In all of your time, have you ever heard of White Pointers that had some unique, recognizable feature - and were seen over and over again at a particular place?

SMITH: Yeah, there's one the Old Man talks about. They nicknamed him Smoky Joe, or something. It used to be around Smoky? But I don't know enough about it. Not in my generation. That's the only one I ever heard of. And who knows if it was the same one. I don't know.

CRAWFORD: You are a unique knowledge holder for a few different reasons, but one of them actually has to do with your experience as a helicopter operator around Stewart Island. A pilot who is also quite seasoned as a commercial fisherman. For all your hours flting along the coastline, and for all of your discussions with pilots of other helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft, have there been instances when people have been flying and they've spotted Sharks in general, White Pointers in particular?

SMITH: I never have. I know the fixed-wing guys that land on Masons Bay, I think they may have seen the odd one. Patrolling the back of the surf break maybe. Raymond, from Stewart Island Flights - he would be a good one to ask about that.

CRAWFORD: Has anybody flying shuttles between Invercargill and Stewart Island seen any on those flights?

SMITH: The two that were caught off Halfmoon Bay wharf, Raymond saw them and rang up Joe, and said "Hey, there's a couple of Sharks in your net. Go and pull them out." Surf beaches, you can see them pretty easy.

CRAWFORD: In your 41 years of life, have you ever heard of a Level 4 White Pointer attack on a Human anywhere in this region?

SMITH: One guy at Bench Island, I think he was tankdiving, I don't know the guy, not from Stewart Island. He lost an arm, maybe. They thought it was a Mako, but now they think it was a White Pointer. 

CRAWFORD: When was that?

SMITH: Maybe two years ago, or thereabouts. I think. 

CRAWFORD: Would have been summertime? 

SMITH: I don't know. That's the only one I know of around here.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Anything along the north side of Foveaux Strait?

SMITH: There was a recent one at Curio Bay, was it? A couple or three years ago. A surfer, I think. 

CRAWFORD: Yes.

SMITH: There's a couple of Sevengiller events up around Riverton, but no Whites. Bruce Skinner dragged a guy out at Dunedin, when he was younger - before he came to Stewart Island. That would be probably forty years ago. That's about all I know.

CRAWFORD: Ok. For your experience with Muttonbirding prior to cage dive operations, that 4-6 weeks every year, did you see any White Pointers during the Muttonbirding season out there?

SMITH: No.

CRAWFORD: You also spent time boating and fishing around the island, in addition to harvesting Muttonbirds?

SMITH: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. During your Muttonbirding during the last seven years, since cage diving has been going on, have you seen any White Pointers around the island?

SMITH: No. But other people, yes. On that same island. 

CRAWFORD: What type of interactions?

SMITH: Great Whites - dinghies, fishing for Blue Cod. 

CRAWFORD: Swim-Bys or Circling?

SMITH: Circling.

CRAWFORD: Taking fish off the line? Bumping the dinghy?

SMITH: Possibly both. Certainly landing in a hurry, because they weren't comfortable being out there in a 12-foot tinnie.

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: What was the first time you saw a White Pointer alive, in the wild?

SMITH: I'm just trying to think. The first time I saw a live one, it must have been about 2008 I suppose. 2007, 2008 roughly. 

CRAWFORD: Where was it?

SMITH: It was Maria Higgins Reef. 

CRAWFORD: Southeast of Jacky Lee?

SMITH: Yeah, pretty much. Those rocks there. It was just on the inside of that. Beautiful day. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year?

SMITH: About five days before Christmas. I was catching a feed of Cod.

CRAWFORD: Handlining?

SMITH: Just on a rod. I know it was before Christmas, because I was catching a feed of fish for some friends of mine. Beautiful, flat, calm day. Twenty feet from the boat - the first live White Pointer I see is taking a Mollymawk. This thing jumping out of the water, twenty feet away from me. Completely clearing the water, Mollymawk in its mouth, splashing back down again, letting the Mollymawk go, and disappearing. Leaving the Mollymawk sitting at the surface, wing broken and bleeding, still alive. I'm thinking "Oh, this is interesting. It's going to come back and eat this." It didn't. I watched it drift around. Probably I waited about a half an hour, just fishing for Blue Cod. I went over to where the Mollymawk is, and I thought "No one's going to believe me." So, I've got the Mollymawk, it was still alive and still bleeding. I brought it into the Department of Conservation - I actually rung one of the guys that works down here, and said "Tell me that's not a bite from a Great White Pointer. I saw it happen right in front of me. You can inspect the cuts and the marks on it." I just wanted to bring it in - they euthanized it, because it wasn't going to survive. We all thought you only hear of them from January sort of through till June, through till late summer, autumn or early winter. So I said "Here's one now."

CRAWFORD: Taking into account where you have been over your lifetime, and what you were doing, the localized numbers of your observations of White Pointers started to increase after cage diving?

SMITH: Hugely.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'hugely' ...

SMITH: Going from none for the first 35 years of my life, to in the last six years of my life ...

CRAWFORD: Roughly how many?

SMITH: Not that I even go looking for them. Just out catching a feed of Cod. Just about every time I go out there. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how many over the past six or seven years?

SMITH: Oh ... I saw the first live one eight years ago, so 2008. Since then, just getting more and more regular ...

CRAWFORD: Like maybe five White Pointers a year? Something like that?

SMITH: On average, probably. Between five and ten. 

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White PointerSMITH: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]. Over the past eight years, when you've been seeing those five to ten White Pointers per year, roughly what percentage of those were Level 1 Observation?

SMITH: Probably about half, I suppose. The other ones have been some interaction for sure, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What percentage do you reckon were Level 2 Swim-Bys?

SMITH: That's hard to say. Probably earlier they are more Swim-Bys, I'd say. The odd one back then was inquisitive. Nothing too interactive until more recently. 

CRAWFORD: So, the degree of interactivity has changed over time?

SMITH: I think so. I'm sure of it, yeah. Maybe 30% Swim-Bys. Then when you get an interaction, it might come around for another look. 

CRAWFORD: Have you had any of the Level 4s - with Intensity? With Attitude?

SMITH: Yes. Coming up and wrapping their mouth around the propeller of a boat. Getting very close to the boat. Bumping the boat. Yeah, that sort of thing. For sure. I just remembered another one - I was in Halfmoon Bay, might've been a year after the first one. I was in Harrold's Bay, which is a sheltered bay right in Halfmoon Bay out towards the lighthouse. I was cleaning some Blue Cod that I caught - again, a week before Christmas, different year. One came up, swam around the boat, and was eating my Codframes. Right in Halfmoon Bay, and it was a week before Christmas as well. 

CRAWFORD: Harrold's Bay - is that close to Ackers Point?

SMITH: It's probably half a mile in from Ackers Point, on the front of Halfmoon Bay. There was another sighting, and it came round and was eating the Cod frames, hanging round the boat for quite a while. 

CRAWFORD: The issue of what the White Pointers are responding to, what they're attracted to, what they're eating - has come up several times in these discussions. When you saw that first White Pointer when you were cleaning fish, you were drifting? Or moored?

SMITH: I was moored. 

CRAWFORD: You were just cleaning your Cod - it wasn't a commercial operation, it was just a feed of Cod?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: You might have had a dozen, something like that?

SMITH: Yeah. Fifteen to twenty.

CRAWFORD: You were cleaning, and the Cod frames were going over. When did you see the White Pointer in that circumstance? Had you already been cleaning for a while?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you see it first below the surface, or at the surface?

SMITH: Below. Just below.

CRAWFORD: Was it circling?

SMITH: It just come past. Just caught my eye. And then it was swimming round and round and round.

CRAWFORD: It circled. Did it interact with your frames?

SMITH: Oh yeah, absolutely. It was eating them. Throw a frame over and watch it sink in the water, and then it would just disappear. 

CRAWFORD: It would swim right to it, open up ...

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Circling with a casual gait? Or did it have some edge to it?

SMITH: Pretty casual, yeah.

CRAWFORD: You were throwing scraps, it was eating scraps?

SMITH: Yeah. Another one I caught, I was fishing with my Uncle. We were setnetting for School Sharks up off the Saddle here. We got one in a School Shark net out there. It was drowned, obviously. Right round its tail, and we lifted it up. Because they're so heavy, when it was upside down, all these rib-bones, and bones, and ripped-up flesh came out of it. Which was from a decomposed Seal. That was thirteen feet, or fourteen feet, I think that one.

CRAWFORD: How many other White Pointers that were caught in Joe Cave's nets had you seen stomach contents for? Or even heard of, for that matter?

 SMITH: I can't be certain I saw any of them. I wasn't hugely interested. Maybe other people were, I don't know. 

CRAWFORD: That's fine. In general, I was looking for a general split of stomach contents between Fish and Seals. And then for the Fish, the split between Fish frames and parts of whole Fish. Do you have any recollection of anybody talking about White Pointers that had been caught around here, that were filled with Seal pups?

SMITH: That one off the Saddle definitely had Seal in it. I don't know if they were Seal pups - it was too decomposed to tell.

CRAWFORD: Right. But there are people who say that this is an area with dynamic Seal colonies, especially on these islands. And this is the time of year when the females are pupping. And pups are naive and easy prey. All of this rationale is completely plausible. Yet, if it was the case, you would predict finding White Pointer stomach contents with lots of Seal pups. But it's obvious that these White Pointers are feeding on a variety of different things when they're here. And in some cases, opportunistically on these Codframes. Because they're available, right? This region has an active commercial fishery.

SMITH: From what I understand now, talking with Clinton Duffy [DOC], he said that Great Whites' metabolism is very, very slow. So, they don't actually need a lot to sustain them. According to what he's told me. In more recent times when I've been out there, I've noticed if there's a Shark around and you see a Seal around, you're gonna go "Oh, this is going to be interesting. There's going to be blood here." But when the Seal knows the Shark's around, he just plays around. The Shark's never going to catch him, if the Seal knows he's there. 

CRAWFORD: There's definitely an agility factor with these Seals - and they know it.

SMITH: Oh, heaps of it. They're only going to get a Seal by surprise. 

CRAWFORD: Final question for this part of the interview. There's this idea that has come up that dead White Pointers are sensed by live ones ...

SMITH: Yeah, I think it is. 

CRAWFORD: And this is related to a highly-publicized event at Edwards Island that you were part of, along with one of the cage dive operators. I've heard different perspectives on the event. I don't want to ignore the issue, and I don't want to spend too much time on it. And just to be clear, I'm less focused on what people said during the event - more focused on what exactly happened with the White Pointers - especially in terms of their behaviour. Are you ok to talk about it from your perspective?

SMITH: Out there netting for Butterfish. We’ve got quota to do so. Done it for years.

CRAWFORD: This was how long ago?

SMITH: Not last February, the February before.

CRAWFORD: You were setnetting?

SMITH: Yeah. Setnetting for Butterfish, Greenbone.

CRAWFORD: Specifically where?

SMITH: Back of Edwards Island. Actually, the end of Edwards Island and the back of Edwards Island. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year?

SMITH: End of January, start of February. Roughly. In my little boat, the inflatable. Just got my nets in the water, and one of operators turned up to do their Shark cage diver operations on the back side of Edwards there. He steamed up to me, and said "Have you got any divers in the water there?" I said "No, I'm netting for Butterfish." And I said "I don't like the idea of you guys coming and doing this here today. I've got my nets in the water. Can't you see?" And I said, "You should know better, Mike. You're an ex-Pāua diver. I don't agree with what you're doing. I don't agree with it at all. And I'm here, netting today." He sort of got a bit funny with me, and went and anchored about a hundred metres off one of my nets. Started chumming for Sharks. What if I get one in my nets? Well, I did get one of them ... it ripped my net and managed to get tangled in one of them.

CRAWFORD: You had come back the next day?

SMITH: Same day. End of that day. I just set my nets first thing in the morning, let them soak through the day, pick them up around two or three o'clock. 

CRAWFORD: And you had a White Pointer in your setnet?

SMITH: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: It was still alive?

SMITH: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What happened then?

SMITH: I heard the Shark operator upped and gone with his punters, before I started lifting my nets. Well, I had to get my nets out of the water, and I had to deal with this bloomin' thing. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: The White Pointer was wrapped up? Entangled in your setnet?

SMITH: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What did you do?

SMITH: I got the Shark up to deal with it, and get the net off of it. At that time, it was very interesting what all the other Sharks were doing. They were very inquisitive, and they were hanging around, and they were right in amongst it all. Which wasn't very pleasant for me.

CRAWFORD: Seems to me, this would have been no different than any other situation that DOC is supposed to manage with regard to incidental catch of an organism that is legally protected. An unplanned, non-target death of a White Pointer that results from legal deployment of gear for other purposes. There is a DOC process in place for reporting of such incidental catch. 

SMITH: That's right.

CRAWFORD: I think I understand the nature of the interaction between you and the cage dive operator in this case. What I'd like to focus on now are the specifics of how the other White Pointers responded to the death of one of their own in your net. You said that the other White Pointers were behaving strangely?

SMITH: When I had the net alongside my boat, and I was trying to deal with it, yes. 

CRAWFORD: So, you had started lifting that final setnet ...

SMITH: I didn't do it from the dinghy. I did it from my bigger boat. The other Sharks were very lively, and inquisitive about what was going on. Even after the point where I let the thing go, it was no longer alive, it sank to the bottom. There was lots of them ...

CRAWFORD: Roughly, how many?

SMITH: Oh, six plus. They were diving down to it, and they were coming round, and they were bobbing down. I could see their bellies as they twisted to look at it. It was very interesting. They knew one of their own was dead on the bottom. And they were checking it out, seeing what was going on. It was a real eye-opener for me. 

CRAWFORD: Did those White Pointers respond in any way to you and your boat?

SMITH: No, not really. They were more interested in one of their own, dead on the bottom. That's what the focus was for them. Absolutely. It wasn't about me.

 CRAWFORD: When you see the transcripts from both of the cage dive operators, it becomes clear that there was an unprecedented lack of White Pointer activity around Edwards Island for the next two weeks after the incident. 

SMITH: Apparently so.

CRAWFORD: As unfortunate as this incident was, it still tells us something uniquely insightful about the White Pointers. It has become quite clear to me that these animals are much more socially complex and dynamic than we had previously thought. 

SMITH: I think so, yeah.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: In terms of people who were Pāua diving around Stewart Island before you, in previous generations, do you remember hearing stories about Pāua divers having interactions with White Pointers?

SMITH: Not really. Ross Newton's had a couple of encounters at the Seal Rocks out by Ruapuke. That was probably sometime in the '80s, maybe late '80s or early '90s.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of our Encounter Level classification, what kind of encounters would those have been?

SMITH: Swim-Bys. The one sat and looked at him, just like ... dead in the water. It just stopped. And looked at him.

CRAWFORD: It stopped?

SMITH: This is what he told me. It was only the moment that he turned and swam for the dinghy that he started to panic. John Hildebrand's told me about a Swim-By or two that he had. Storm Stanley saw one at Dog Island I think, one day - a Swim-By. And another one at the Solanders. These are all guys that are half a generation behind me. Ten years, fifteen years older. 

CRAWFORD: If I'm hearing you right, there are two things to note. Pāua diver - White Pointer interactions are rare. And they tend to be Swim-Bys?

SMITH: Yeah, that's right. There's been no interaction. 

CRAWFORD: No circling, no added interest?

SMITH: Well, no one's going to stand around.

CRAWFORD: Right. But even then, if a White Pointer is circling around the dinghy, that would have made it into the stories you would have heard from these guys as well.

SMITH: Not that I know of. Rastus said that he had one round here - a huge one. And that was a Swim-By as well.

CRAWFORD: Actually, I interviewed Rastus. And that White Pointer stopped dead in the water as well.

SMITH: Yeah? Ok. He said it was a big one.

CRAWFORD: Not only was it a big one, but it was above him, and it stopped. He was running out of breath, so he had to swim by it on his way up. 

SMITH: He said it disappeared so fast. It was just gone. Mind you, it can do that quite easy - out of sight. Just with the movement of the tail. 

CRAWFORD: I think people grossly underestimate just how incredibly powerful these White Pointers are, as swimmers. I've heard maybe four or five accounts so far of 'a flick of the tail' - and the animal's gone. To move a tonne of flesh through the water so effortlessly - that's pretty impressive.

SMITH: I don't think they do it, unless they really need to. Maybe they just get a little bit spooked, for whatever reason. 

CRAWFORD: Well, that's another important factor. We can surprise the hell out of them sometimes.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: But based on what you've heard from other Pāua divers, encounters with White Pointers are rare, and when they do occur, they're Level 2?

SMITH: Correct.

CRAWFORD: Well, Level 1 Observations - when you're Pāua diving, you're working in the water, so your field of view ... the chances of you actually seeing a White Pointer that wasn't in your immediate proximity - I'm guessing that's pretty low?

SMITH: For me, I've got a black mask, so I don't get any peripheral. And I don't really want it. You're only looking for Pāuas. I'm not interested in a White Pointer coming along. If it's going to get me, it will. There's not a lot I can do about it, so I'm not even going to bother looking or think about it. That's just the way I am with my diving.

CRAWFORD: Right. And this is related to their curiosity. Different people, at different times, have talked about these White Pointers having a very high level of natural curiosity, natural inquisitiveness. In what you have seen personally, and what you've heard, have people ever gotten the distinct impression that a White Pointer has been checking them out specifically?

SMITH: I've heard stories about that. That's a Level 2, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: It's beyond Level 2 Swim-By, there and gone. It's more Level 3 Interest, in this case what appears to be a White Pointer curious about a Human. Directed curiosity to a person.

SMITH: I don't know. The ones that stopped with Rastus and Ross Newton. It's a possible curiousness there.

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

CRAWFORD: What was your first recollection of cage dive operations in the region? Do you remember?

SMITH: Pete Scott, probably. On the Argo. Must've been about seven, eight years ago. I think he started doing little bits and pieces. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of a routine for their cage dive operations, do you know what exactly they do? Have you seen them start to finish? What they do?

SMITH: Not really, no. I’ve got a bit of an idea.

CRAWFORD: What's the idea that you've got?

SMITH: I've been out when I've been netting. I've seen what they do, from my netting boat. Come up to his boat, and had a look at what they're up to.

CRAWFORD: So, he comes into the region ...

SMITH: He comes in from ... like, he lives in Dunedin. He's got a new boat now, but he was bringing in the Argo - his old wooden-planked trawler. Turns up here about the new year. Because his boat's quite slow, most of the clients either fly over or come over on the ferry. Go out with his punters for the day. He seems to leave the Bay wharf about 7 o'clock maybe, in the morning. Earlyish, round about then - possibly 8 o'clock if they come over on the ferry. They seem to be out there ...

CRAWFORD: Do you know where they go?

SMITH: Yeah, Edwards Island. They all go there now. It's the only place they do go.

CRAWFORD: That's part of the DOC permit, as of last year.

SMITH: He can take eight or ten people, something like that. They seem to be out until about 2 o'clock. I can see the boat from my Muttonbird hut when I'm Muttonbirding. That's the prime time of year when they're out there doing it. 

CRAWFORD: When they're out there, they pick a station around Edwards ...

SMITH: They used to have a mooring there, but I think probably people have taken it out. So now they just drop their anchor, because they've probably gone back there enough times and it hasn't been there. Not that I've been any part of that. But it seems to be where they anchor now. 

CRAWFORD: So, they take station - and then what happens?

SMITH: I think they're allowed to berley, and they're allowed to use throw baits to attract the Sharks to the back of the boat. They put the cage in the water, people put their wetsuits on - with a hookah system for air. They sit there, and go "Ooh, Aah." With bars in front of them. That wouldn't get my heart rate up. Maybe if you got on the other side of the bars. That's what we do, when we're Pāua diving. 

CRAWFORD: And that's pretty much their day. Then they pack up?

SMITH: Yeah. Pete takes a whole lot of money off them. They jump off at Halfmoon Bay wharf, going "Oh wow. That was an adrenaline rush. Great. Marvelous. Wonderful. Seen the Jaws movies, now that's just awesome." In a day. I can see the attraction for a city-lover that doesn’t really have any understanding of it. I can see the adrenaline and the thrill of going and seeing this apex predator. Everybody's watched the Jaws movies, and got this engrained in their minds from 20 or 30 years ago. Reality is far, far different from that. But these people don't know anything about the reality. They're just get this buzz about being in the water with an apex predator - behind bars. Whoop-de-do. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Now that we've got a sense of what the operations are ... do you think that Shark cage diving has important, long-lasting effects on the White Pointers or on White Pointer-Human interactions?

SMITH: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's partition the factors. What kinds of important effects do you think the cage dive operations have on the White Pointers?

SMITH: The Shark cage season goes from say January to mid-May. That day that I caught that one in my net, I watched Mike Haines - he would have thrown several reasonable-sized Tuna that got eaten by Great White Sharks. Say half a dozen Tuna. Say four - a number a little bit less than what I saw that day. Say he did that fifteen days a month, for that whole season. That would be over sixty Tuna. But then, Clinton tells me that they can sustain their whole migration on very little. Tuna's pretty good stuff. That could condition or change their behaviour - it's easy food. Easier than chasing Seals, or picking up Codframes. You just eat. Sixty Tuna? That's potentially giving twelve Great Whites enough sustenance to maintain their whole migration. 

CRAWFORD: To clarify, there were pre-permit practices, and now there are post-permit practices. Pre-permit, DOC did not regulate anything to do with where or how the operations took place. But under the conditions of the DOC permits that started a year ago, the operators are allowed to use a fine berley, and use a throw bait to guide the White Pointers. But they are explicitly not supposed to actually feed the White Pointers anymore. For the throw baits, the operators are supposed to do everything in their power to ensure the White Pointers don't get it. And if they do get it, there's a limit on how many throw baits they can actually use per day. I'm presuming that, based on your observation, you're thinking that the permit conditions and reality could be two different things?

SMITH: That's correct.

CRAWFORD: One way or another, do you think there could still be actual feeding going on at the post-permit cage dive operations?

SMITH: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And depending on the quantity and quality of any such food, that it's not just the berley that attract the White Pointers. There could actually be a behavioural modification through learned association with food?

SMITH: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: And you think that, in turn, could affect their other feeding requirements or practices in the region, while they're here. I think I understand what you're saying. Are there any other kinds of effects on the White Pointers that you think might be happening?

SMITH: Damage from the cage. I've got footage of it on my computer at home. Smashing of the cage, and being seriously scarred and maimed around their jaw, their head, nose, eyes. I've got footage of one hitting the cage, and breaking three welds of the aluminium cage. 

CRAWFORD: This was footage that was posted online, taken by one of their punters?

SMITH: No, it's not online. It was given to me by one of their clients. There's a before and after - nice clean nose of a Great White, and then the damage after. 

CRAWFORD: So, that's another form of direct effect from the cage dive operations?

SMITH: They want to give their punters a thrill. Pull a throw bait past, and the Shark goes by with a big open mouth in front of the cage, and smashes into the cage. It's just part of the deal. It's what sells. It's what sells to your person out of a big city that's come for a thrill - who doesn't really know the gist of what's going on.

CRAWFORD: Ok. At this stage, you have two clearly identified concerns about the effects on the White Pointers - the first one about diet, and the second one about physical injury. Any other effects we should get into?

SMITH: Behaviour change. Huge behaviour change. That's the main one, which is obvious.

CRAWFORD: Let's dig into that. What effect do you think the cage dive operations are having on the White Pointers' behaviour, specifically?

SMITH: Change of behaviour. Because they're feeding them a food that they really like, they really want. They're putting a Human silhouette behind bugger-all bars, in some cases no bars - it's just a sheet of perspex. Those Sharks have got good eyesight, as far as I'm aware from talking with Malcolm and Clinton. They have a very good sense of smell for offal or something like that in the water. They have an extremely acute sense of electrical energy, whether it be a Minnow swimming past or a Blue Whale - they can sense that energy by those receptors, those little dot receptors around their jaw and mouth, where they can feel that energy. Well, if you've got a person in the water that's emitting that electrical energy, you've got a silhouette of a person in a diving suit, and you're throwing them offal and throw baits, berley - those are the three ways they feed, isn't it? Eyesight, smell, and electrical energy. And then you're out there in your wetsuit one day, to scratch out a feed of Pāuas, and they'll go "Ooh. I recognize that electrical energy, and I recognize that silhouette. Last time I was here, I got a good feed of something that I wanted to eat."

CRAWFORD: So, once again, it comes back to feeding. If feeding wasn't actually taking place - if it was just berley, just the smell of food without anything to bite or swallow, let's deal with that. Because that's what is required by the permits currently in place. In a situation where it is only the smell from a fine mince berley, plus the visual presence of a throw bait that they're not supposed to get, recognizing that sometimes they will catch it by accident ... it's the association then between the smell of the berley and the presence of the Humans, whether it's by smell or electrical or sight. You believe that association with just the smell of food would affect the White Pointer's behaviour in an important and lasting way, such that when they see a Human in the water elsewhere without the food smell, that they are much more likely to engage with that Human?

SMITH: I think so. Definitely different, for sure. Before they were protected, when they did that and become inquistive - they got sorted out. 

CRAWFORD: You mean 'sorted out' in terms of removed from the population?

SMITH: Yeah. So, if they're protected and they're always going to be protected ... and I don't agree with that, I think how it was before is just fine. I don't think we should be going out mindlessly killing every single one. I think they're an amazing, wonderful animal. But no more special or amazing than the Blue Cod or the Pāua or anything else. They're just another species that gets around in the ocean, that's every bit as fascinating as the next thing. I have respect for them just like everything else - I don't want to see them wiped out. But I think the way it was, was managing our culture in the situation, it wasn't doing the White Shark population any harm at all. That's just me.

CRAWFORD: That's an important context for this discussion about the effects of cage dive operations. If I heard you correctly, you said you think there is indeed an important and lasting association between the smell of food only, and the presence of Humans in the water?

SMITH: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: To the extent that it changes the probability of an individual White Pointer engaging with Humans in the water in an important way?

SMITH: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Where a Swim-By becomes Circling, or a Circling becomes Attitude?

SMITH: Yeah. Just conditioning. No different from your Bears, or anything else.

CRAWFORD: All of these things are possible. Do you believe there's any evidence that there actually has been a change in the behaviour of White Pointers in this region, since the beginning of cage dive operations?

SMITH: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What kinds of changes have you seen, or heard of?

SMITH: They're more bold. 

CRAWFORD: For example ...

SMITH: Coming up to people's boats. Trying to bite propellers of boats. Hanging on to rudders of forefoot of boats. Coming dangerously close to people in small boats. Just showing up around a boat that doesn't even have a line in the water, let alone any berley. They're bold.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's sort some these things. These elevated frequencies of interactions, where are they taking place geographically?

SMITH: In the islands in front of Halfmoon Bay.

CRAWFORD: So, in among the Titi Islands?

SMITH: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Even though the cage diver operators, now according to the permit, can only work around Edwards Island, are these increased interactions happening more broadly that that?

SMITH: Yeah, but mainly close to the Edwards Island area. But certainly between Bunkers, Edwards, Jacky Lee, Herekopare, Maria Higgins Reef, Bench Island. This area here.

CRAWFORD: And some of these increased interactions out there among the Islands would be coming from other people who might be commercial fishing, recreational fishing, people who are just out there boating, people who are out there Muttonbirding at particular times. In general has there been a clear increase in the frequency of White Pointer-Human interactions, or an increase in the intensity of those interactions, or both?

SMITH: Both. We talked earlier about Paterson Inlet ... Peter Scott brought his boat into Golden Bay last year. And the Sharks know the sound of his boat. Hopefully he wasn't in there berleying for Sharks, and I don't think he would have been. But he come, and he anchored up just outside Golden Bay - between Golden Bay and Iona Island. The Salmon Farm guys leave to go to work every morning at 7 o'clock. Sharks. Great White Sharks. There. 

CRAWFORD: At Golden Bay?

SMITH: Yes. Because he was there, and they know the sound of his boat.

CRAWFORD: When did that happen?

SMITH: Last year.

CRAWFORD: What time of year?

SMITH: During the Shark season. Must have been February, March, April - something like that. Might have been later in the season.

CRAWFORD: This gets back to my previous question about your observations, or other peoples' observations, of White Pointers in Paterson Inlet.

S That happened last year. You can talk to Craig Farmer, he's one of the Mussel farmers - he saw it. Talk to any of the Salmon farmers who were working last autumn. They would have seen that on their way to work. It was only when his boat was there. They know that boat.

CRAWFORD: This is a qualitatively different effect now. Do you think in that situation, the White pointers that were seen in Paterson Inlet adjacent to the cage dive boat - do you think they followed the cage dive boat into Paterson Inlet? 

SMITH: Possible. They either followed it in, or they recognized the sound of it when they were cruising the area.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Those two things could, but not necessarily, happen at the same time. And they needn't be mutually exclusive.

SMITH: I think the Sharks only travel at about two or three knots, roughly - give or take. Just if they're cruising along. I'm sure they can go a hell of a lot faster than that, when they need to. Pete Scott's boat travels about seven knots, so they'd be putting in pretty good horsepower to keep up with it - to follow it all the way. I don't know how far they can hear - probably quite well, I would imagine. I don't know. That would be a question for Malcolm and Clinton.

 CRAWFORD: Regardless of whether they actually, physically followed his boat in, if his boat was operating they could have picked up the sound of his boat from a distance and homed in on it. The association under those circumstances would not necessarily be between the smell of food and the visual cues of the boat, but rather between the smell of food and the sound of the boat or its motor?

SMITH: Yeah. If I was paddling around somewhere here, having a dive, and the Argo was puttering up towards me, I'd be seriously concerned. Put it that way.

CRAWFORD: Do you know of any other instances, where either of the two cage dive boats - or any boats for that matter ... have you seen or heard of White Pointers following boats?

SMITH: Even before protection and before cage diving, the same boats were going into Deadman's Bay to clean Cod every night. Some Sharks definitely even learned a habit out of that. The odd person would go out and try to catch them. Some of the fishermen would sort of be protective, and say "Leave them alone. They're just eating up the fish being cleaned at Deadman's Bay." Like Gary Neave, he'd tell you that. They're going back to that same place every day, it's a habit. To eat the Codframes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That's a good example of White Pointers associating food to a place. 

SMITH: Yeah. But they would maybe start to recognize that boat. Like Gary Neave's boat maybe. I don't know. Maybe follow it in.

CRAWFORD: That's possible, but right now we don't have any evidence either way.

SMITH: No, that's right.

CRAWFORD: Likewise, it's quite possible that following behaviour could take place. You do have what you think likely to be evidence of following, with the Argo in Paterson Inlet. You think that's consistent with White Pointers following, one way or another?

SMITH: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Some other people have put forward the idea that the White Pointers may actually associate the place, rather that necessarily the boats, with the food or the smell of food. And that because of the cage dive operations immediately around Edwards Island, that the White Pointers that would normally have just been doing their thing out along the coastline, are now more aggregated around Edwards Island. That they've associated the place with the smell of food.

SMITH: Absolutely. No question. Look, I've dived Edwards Island through years of diving, up until about the last seven. In the autumn. Ask Stu Cave - we dive together. Never gave it a second thought. I would not dive there now. No way. I'll dive there, but I won’t dive there in the autumn. That would be the last place on my radar to be diving. 

CRAWFORD: Fifteen years ago, if you had taken a boat out to Edwards Island, would there have been White Pointers coming round the boat?

SMITH: I hadn't seen one until five years ago, so no.

CRAWFORD: Well, that's fairly straightforward. Tomorrow, if you were to take a boat out to Edwards Island, would there be White Pointers coming round the boat?

SMITH: Ask me that in February.

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. Let's make it a boat trip out to Edwards in February. Nothing else going on. No cage diving, no fishing, no cleaning. Would the White Pointers come round your boat?

SMITH: I think you'd be unlucky not to see one. At least one. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Last thing in this regard, and it's related to the idea of feeding White Pointers. You have a strong feeling that in the past there was active feeding of large fish parts by the cage dive operators to the White Pointers. And you said that was an important factor in the association the White Pointers make with place, and boat, and Humans. Under the current DOC permits, there is supposed to be strict control and minimization that the White Pointers now get anything foodwise from the cage dive operations. However, there is nothing under New Zealand law that would prevent young Sam here, from taking his mate out to Edwards Island tomorrow, or anyplace else - and dumping, not just Codframes, but whole fish of whatever kind. Cod, Tuna, whatever. With the purpose of attracting White Pointers for an ecotourism experience. 

SMITH: That's right.

CRAWFORD: I might be missing something under the laws or regulations, but as far as I can tell - there's nothing preventing that kind of non-commercial, citizen behaviour of feeding the White pointers. I don't know for sure. There might be something in the Wildlife Management Act or something, because White Pointers are a protected species.

SMITH: Well, if it is - why isn't it true for the cage divers?

CRAWFORD: But they're not dumping fish or fish parts, according to the DOC permit. So, whatever their variance is, it's covered under their cage diving permit. 

SMITH: There's nothing really in place to stop somebody that doesn't really know about it. 

CRAWFORD: Or even to stop somebody who does know what their doing. Some people have been concerned that, as time has gone on, there are now people who are going over to Edwards - from Bluff, from here, from wherever. They're not running cage dive operations, so they do not require a permit. But these other people are in fact actually feeding the White Pointers there. They feel that there's nothing legally stopping them from doing it, and they get a good show or whatever. 

SMITH: Yeah. I know what you're saying. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that type of thing is increasing in occurrence?

SMITH: Yes. I'm sure it is. You can get an operator around Halfmoon Bay here to take you out fishing for Blue Cod, and they'll say "Well, come along with me, give me an extra few dollars, we'll just throw our frames over here, and you might see this." Yeah, of course.

CRAWFORD: Although that's not specifically related to the cage dive operations, it's part of the broader concern about the interactions between Humans and those White Pointers in that place.

SMITH: Yeah. You could get a cage dive operator and a charter operator - one's there to Shark cage dive, and one's there to throw frames over the side. They're not working together.

CRAWFORD: One final thing in this regard ... this idea about the berley as a smell of food, and it's effect in the association with place, boat, Humans. I was interested when I interviewed one of the cage dive operators, and learned that prior to the DOC permit, he was actually using a piece of carpet cut out in the shape of a Seal, and the shadow cast from the surface. We talked about the natural curiosity of the White Pointers. But as a result of the permit, DOC says there that no artificial baits shall be used. He thought maybe their thinking was to protect the White Pointers, in case they ate a piece of the carpet or something. In that case, I asked him specifically if just the silhouette would attract the White Pointers, and he said "Oh, yeah." So, my question for you is ... if there was some form of non-berleying attractant being used by a cage dive operation - something that did not have the smell of food ... I'm not even saying that it necessarily would work, or that it would be a viable business model ... but if they didn't use the smell of food, would you still have the same kind of concerns about the cage diver operations and their effects on the White Pointers?

SMITH: I think it would be different. My own personal view is I'd like it to be back how it was. When they were not protected. When one or two show up that are getting a little bit too friendly, they should be taken out for the right reasons, and used for cultural purposes. Maybe one a year or something like that, I don't know. But that worked. That's how it was to start. My main concern in this whole thing is for the young growing up in this community with this fear. I didn't have that - I'm very lucky. Neither did my Father or my Grandfather. But my child, and my friend's kids - young families growing up in this community, they've got this fear now. They're not going to grow up and be Pāua divers. They're not going to grow up and do these coastal activities like we did. That's my biggest driver in this whole thing. It's changing the way of this community, and the way that people grow up, socialize, and go about their lives.

CRAWFORD: I think I get the idea of the broader social, community context. The bigger picture. But If there was some form of cage diving that did not involve the smell of food, is that something that could potentially affect your opinion on whether cage dive operations could continue?

SMITH: Yes, possibly. But it would have to be a long way from my back door. 

Copyright © 2021 Zane Smith and Steve Crawford