Tim Dawson

YOB: 1982
Experience: Pāua Diver, Commercial Fisherman, Ferry Skipper, Charter Operator
Regions: Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait
Interview Location: Halfmoon Bay, Stewart Island, NZ
Interview Date: 11 December 2015, 16 January 2016
Post Date: 04 July 2021; Copyright © 2021 Tim Dawson and Steve Crawford

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: When and where were you born, Tim?

DAWSON: I’m a 6th-generation Islander. Originally born in Dunedin, come straight back to Stewart Island. Been here pretty much my whole life. 

CRAWFORD: Born in Dunedin. When did you move back to the Island?

DAWSON: My parents had been there, but my Mother was originally from Dunedin. So, for me and my Brothers, she went up there to have us, and then come straight back to the Island. 

CRAWFORD: So, you were an infant when you arrived?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What’s the first memory you have of spending time on or in the water? 

DAWSON: I can always remember being on, around boats and dinghies at a young age. My Father and Grandpa being fishermen. Probably from about five or six I can remember things.

CRAWFORD: Did you live in Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay?

DAWSON: Always been Halfmoon Bay. 

CRAWFORD: Your Dad and his Dad had always been fishermen?

DAWSON: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of fisheries?

DAWSON: Crayfishing, Codding, and Pāua diving. That was before things got quota'd.

CRAWFORD: Was there a period of time, prior to boating, when you spent time on the beaches or swimming or doing things around the water?

DAWSON: I think growing up on the Island, you’re always around the edges of the water or the beaches. It wasn’t until maybe I was a teenager that I really, seriously got into the boatworks side of things. 

CRAWFORD: So, as a young kid, spending time with family at the beaches?

DAWSON: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Did you have swimming lessons?

DAWSON: Yes, we had swimming lessons. I can remember it was in the swimming pool at Halfmoon Bay. Also Bathing Beach was a big place we used to do a lot of swimming as kids. 

CRAWFORD: But there was also a school component for swimming lessons?

DAWSON: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: I've heard that the previous generation had swimming lessons down at Bathing Beach, but I'm guessing your generation had swimming lessons at the pool? 

DAWSON: That’s right, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: At what age did your parents give you a bit more independence around the water? When you were allowed to go off on your own, with your mates?

DAWSON: We were maybe seven onwards. I remember from when we were eight or nine onwards, we had our own dinghy at the Bay. The rules were, we had to learn how to row it first. Then we were allowed an outboard. And then after that, we were pretty good to go. 

CRAWFORD: You had to cut your teeth with boating - to demonstrate you were responsible to go to the next level?

DAWSON: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: And swimming was a common thing throughout? 

DAWSON: All the time. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you do any sailing, or was it mostly dinghies?

DAWSON: Row dinghies. We used to build our own rafts and stuff, as well. 

CRAWFORD: Farting around, exploring the high seas? 

DAWSON: Yeah, exactly.

CRAWFORD: Mostly here in Halfmoon Bay? Or did you also spend time in Horseshoe Bay or Paterson Inlet?

DAWSON: Yeah, a little bit of all areas. But mainly Halfmoon Bay area. I remember we had a family speedboat as well, that we used to take out and go fishing. At a young age.

CRAWFORD: When you went on those kinds of family outings, generally where would you go?

DAWSON: Mainly in Paterson’s Inlet area.

CRAWFORD: How did you get to the Inlet?

DAWSON: We would probably go from the Golden Bay side. But when we were first learning on dinghies rowing and that, we were mainly in Halfmoon Bay area. The regulations from my Grandparents, we weren’t allowed to go outside the points, until we were fully confident in what we were doing.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you were spending quite a bit of time in and around the Bay. And as you got a little older, a bit more in Paterson Inlet?

DAWSON: Yes, that’s right.

CRAWFORD: Did you do any fishing as a kid?

DAWSON: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of fishing?

DAWSON: Mainly just linefishing. Blue Cod fishing.

CRAWFORD: Get a feed of fish?

DAWSON: Yeah, always. Fishing was always good. 

CRAWFORD: Did you do diving of any kind?

DAWSON: Yep. We started doing a bit of Pāua diving at a young age with our Dad. He was always a diver, so he’d take turns taking one of three sons out and teaching us how to dive for Pāua.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, what age when you started going out Pāua diving with him?

DAWSON: Maybe seven or eight. At the time it was just recreational Pāua diving. I think he did a lot of the commercial stuff before we were old enough to get into that sort of thing. 

CRAWFORD: And then he switched into other things?

DAWSON: Yeah. There wasn’t a lot of money left in fishing, by the time we got of age where we could have been getting right into it. 

CRAWFORD: When did you first have access to a motorboat that was yours for the using? 

DAWSON: Like an outboard motor? We had that at quite a young age. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly at what age were you allowed to leave Halfmoon Bay on your own?

DAWSON: Was it twelve, maybe?

CRAWFORD: You and your mates would pack up? Go out and day trip on your own.

DAWSON: Yeah

CRAWFORD: Any overnighters?

DAWSON: We would do a few overnighters here and there, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Once you were allowed to take the boat outside of the Bay, where did you go?

DAWSON: A lot of time when we were anywhere around Paterson’s Inlet. We’d go exploring. We’d come up Ryan’s Creek, Kaipipi. We’d go around Halfmoon Bay into Horseshoe Bay. 

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing you boys in your early teens, you probably weren’t allowed to go over to the Titi Islands?

DAWSON: No. At that age, no. Another thing, when I was young, I did a lot of dinghy-boy work and Pāua divers.

CRAWFORD: You did? Yeah, that’s extremely important for this discussion.

DAWSON: Yeah, sorry I forgot to mention that.

CRAWFORD: That’s fine. What age were you? 

DAWSON: That would have been in my teen years. 

CRAWFORD: Early teens? Late teens? 

DAWSON: Probably more early teens, yeah. And I’ve done dinghy-boy work on and off right through till now. 

CRAWFORD: Dinghy-boy work is important for this project, because while you’re not in the water - you’ve got two or three divers in the water, who you are supporting. You’re picking up their Pāua harvest, but you’re also supposed to keep a keen eye there while they’re in the water. 

DAWSON: Yes.

CRAWFORD: From what I've heard, sometimes the Pāua divers see things underwater that the dinghy-boy doesn't see at all. And sometimes it's the dinghy-boy sees things the divers are oblivious to.

DAWSON: Yeah, yeah. On and off for my teens, right through till now. I'll pick up the odd job. Filling in for divers that haven’t got a dinghy-boy there.

CRAWFORD: When you do go out, are those day-trips, or two- to three-day trips?

DAWSON: Combination of day-trips, up to two or three days.

CRAWFORD: When you were working with Pāua divers who were you dinghy-boying with? For the most part?

DAWSON: For a large part, I was dinghy-boy for [Ian Wilson??]. There were a couple others, but I’m not too sure who else I was with. 

CRAWFORD: Where did you go with Ian, when you went out?

DAWSON: Oh, all round the Island.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But what were some of the major places you would go to?

DAWSON: Probably come right down as far as Lords River

CRAWFORD: Working the coastline all the way down?

DAWSON: Yeah. And around to Mason's Heads.

CRAWFORD: Once again, working the way around?

DAWSON: Yeah. Well, usually if it was easterly, we'd be right around the back, iin sheltered weather.

CRAWFORD: So, boating around the Ruggedies, in behind Codfish Island?

DAWSON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about the southern end of the Island?

DAWSON: I never really did a lot down that way.

CRAWFORD: So, if it was wind out of the west, you’d be in the lee - on the east or northeast side of the Island?

DAWSON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: And if it was out of the east, you’d be on the west side?

DAWSON: Yeah, if there was a good strong easterly, we’d be on the west side.

CRAWFORD: Ok. After your early teen years, what was the next significant change in terms of your boating and coastal activities?

DAWSON: It would have been round my mid-teen years, fifteen or sixteen. It was around the time we really explored different things. Catch bigger, stronger fish.

CRAWFORD: Bigger, stronger ... like what? 

DAWSON: Sharks. That was something, as a young boy, it was always something like "I want to catch a Shark." I think the first one we ever got onto, we were trying to catch bait for one of our Crayfish pots - in a gillnet.

CRAWFORD: Where was that?

DAWSON: It was actually in the Paterson Inlet area. But now looking back on rules and regulations, we weren’t allowed our nets in there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. This is a different type of thing than I was expected. To be clear, you and your mate were still kids, teenagers. You had Craypots and a gillnet to catch bait for the pots, but this was still just for shits and giggles - it wasn't a commercial fishery?

DAWSON: Right. 

CRAWFORD: But it’s a higher level of recreational fishery. Kids don’t typically go and catch big Sharks. 

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. As you got older, was there any change in the vessel you were using or was it still the same family dinghy?

DAWSON: One of them was the family speedboat that we had. So, of course we were allowed to have open reign with it. 

CRAWFORD: You had the keys to that boat, and all the responsibility that went with it. 

DAWSON: Yeah. That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Was the range that you were allowed to take that boat expanded? Or was it still pretty much the two Bays and the Inlet?

DAWSON: Yeah, it could have been expanded. But for a small boat, and the type of weather we had - it was still the Bays and the Inlet. And that was where the most fun was, shallow water. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Even then, in your mid-teen years, your activities changed a bit. Including becoming a fair bit more ambitious in your fishing?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. What was the next thing that changed? Or was that pretty much consistent through the rest of high school?

DAWSON: Yeah, pretty much consistent through high school. Until me and my Brothers started purchasing our own bigger boats. That's when things started expanding. 

CRAWFORD: When was the first bigger boat that you purchased? 

DAWSON: Must have been my early twenties, I think.

CRAWFORD: Was it a boat that was purchased specifically for fishing or what?

DAWSON: Just for pleasure, mainly. A 30-foot wooden boat, with a wee bit of accommodation. 

CRAWFORD: This was something you and your Brother bought?

DAWSON: I bought it myself. Me and my Partner at the time, we bought that. Still got it now. After that, both my Brothers followed years later, and bought their own boats as well. 

CRAWFORD: In general, what types of activities on this 30-footer? 

DAWSON: Everything from hunting, fishing, diving - you name it. Anything and everything we could get into. 

CRAWFORD: What was your job at the time? After high school?

DAWSON: At the time, I was either Crayfishing or crewing on the ferry for my Father. 

CRAWFORD: So, a split between fishing and ferry work?

DAWSON: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And fishing, it was mostly Crayfishing? 

DAWSON: Yes, mostly. A wee bit of Cod, as well.

CRAWFORD: During the offseason, after Crayfishing?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when was your Cray season?

DAWSON: It started round August, I suppose. August, September, October. A bit of Codding was always after that. I've had a few different Crayfishing jobs, just different boats and that. 

CRAWFORD: Crewing for other people on their Crayboats?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: In general, where around Stewart Island was your Crayfishing experience? 

DAWSON: A lot of it was up the coast of New Zealand.

CRAWFORD: Fiordland?

DAWSON: Yeah, Fiordland coast.

CRAWFORD: How far up? 

DAWSON: Preservation, and up probably as far as Chalky. 

CRAWFORD: These were what ...ten-day,  two-week trips? 

DAWSON: Yeah, about ten days.

CRAWFORD: You were crewing for other people. How big were the boats that you were taking up to Fiordland?

DAWSON: Some of them are probably 40-foot a wee bit bigger. I’ve done the odd trip, just out of the Bay, Crayfish as well. In the off-season. 

CRAWFORD: Did you fish places other than Fiordland? 

DAWSON: No. Just out the front of the Bay. Out in front of Halfmoon Bay. 

CRAWFORD: Out around the Titi Islands?

DAWSON: Yeah, out around there. There’s Crayfish out southeast and that.

CRAWFORD: What about fishing or boating the east side of Stewart Island? Or down south?

DAWSON: Haven’t had a lot of experience. I did a lot of crew work on the ferry, when my Father was driving. So, I've seen a lot of it along the coastlines and that. Dropping hunters off and doing Muttonbird runs, and that sort of stuff. Dropping them off down the South Cape. But apart from that, not a great deal of fishing or anything along there.

CRAWFORD: In terms of the ferry work with your Father, was it all based out of Halfmoon Bay? 

DAWSON: It was, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Was it the type of Bluff - Halfmoon Bay shuttle, but sometimes shuttles all around Stewart Island?

DAWSON: Yeah, that's right.

CRAWFORD: Was that part-time, or on a regular basis for part of the season?

DAWSON: Yeah, for a main part of it. I started off doing it in my school holidays. And then after that, it eventually went into a full-time job. 

CRAWFORD: Beginning in your mid- to late-teens? 

DAWSON: Yeah, I suppose it would have been considered full-time. And then, when a Crayfishing job would come up, I would go off and do that. If you're young and chasing the money, I suppose. That's where it was.

CRAWFORD: Right. If I’m understanding, that would have been all the way through winter and summer? 

DAWSON: Yes.

CRAWFORD: In terms of Muttonbirding, was that just shuttling to and from the Islands? Or were you out as a harvester as well?

DAWSON: Nah. Just shuttling. Picking up, dropping off.

CRAWFORD: Would that have been mostly the northern Titi Islands, or the southern islands as well? 

DAWSON: Yeah, pretty much all of the Muttonbird Islands around Stewart Island, we did a drop-off and pick-up to. A majority were down the South Cape. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. That gave you very good coverage around Stewart Island from your ferry work. What was the next big thing that changed?

DAWSON: Probably not really a great deal. From there, I went and got my Skipper's ticket. And then I pretty much took command of the vessel after that. 

CRAWFORD: The ferry vessel? 

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When was that - when you got your Skipper's ticket? 

DAWSON: I think I was 20 or 21, when I got that. And then after that, I had a wee bit of a part-time Skippering. And then eventually into a full-time position on the ferry. 

CRAWFORD: The same ferry you had previously crewed on? 

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Mostly Bluff-Halfmoon Bay, with some other Stewart Island shuttles?

DAWSON: Yeah, yeah. Majority was across the Strait. Do hunter dropoffs, Muttonbirding dropoffs. Went down as far as the Snares, sometimes - drop Scientists off, down there. 

CRAWFORD: How long did that continue? 

DAWSON: Right through till today, pretty much. I’ve had another section of time when I did a bit of charter boat work in between there. And I take some holidays from charter work, and just do a little bit of Crayfishing. 

CRAWFORD: When you say 'charter work' is that Skippering for somebody else’s vessel?

DAWSON: Yeah, someone else’s operation, but I was a Skipper for them. That was doing a wee bit of diving charter work, and some kayaking charters.

CRAWFORD: 'Diving charter work' as in being a support vessel for recreational scubadivers?

DAWSON: Recreational divers, mainly. A lot of them were just learning. 

CRAWFORD: These were their open-water certification dives, or whatever?

DAWSON: Yeah, yeah. It was just mainly in shallow water areas. And we'd do a little bit of fishing with them.

CRAWFORD: Where would those shallow water dive sites be?

DAWSON: Up Port William was the main area. But I do a wee bit of snorkeling. Show them a few different things under the water. Bit of kayaking. 

CRAWFORD: What vessel were you using for the charter work?

DAWSON: It was called the Rakiura Explorer, at the time. Then had its name changed to [Candace Britt??]. I think it was the same vessel they used for the Shark cage diving that, after it sold. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when was those charter years? 

DAWSON: When I was probably 23, 24.

CRAWFORD: Roughly 2003?

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Was the charter work during the same period you were working on the semi-submersible you were telling me about?

DAWSON: That’s slightly different. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When did the semi-submersible come into the picture?

DAWSON: That comes in under the ferry company, when it was first purchased. 

CRAWFORD: Was this Real Journeys? 

DAWSON: It was purchased before Real Journeys, I believe.

CRAWFORD: Purchased by whom? 

DAWSON: [Phil Keskie??] was I think who bought it. 

CRAWFORD: An independent operator?

DAWSON: Yep. This is where it could become a bit complicated on my dates and times but ...

CRAWFORD: Don’t worry about it. 

DAWSON: Yeah, ok. He came in, and was operating the ferries at the time. I think he brought the semi-sub over from Australia. Then I believe her sold to Real Journeys. He was the same guy who went and bought another charter boat, and worked that. 

CRAWFORD: I’m interested in how long you Skippered the semi-submersible?

DAWSON: Pretty much since it arrived, till it left. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when was the beginning and end of that period? 

DAWSON: It left maybe a year ago, two years ago. Yeah, I’d say 2013 it was sold.

CRAWFORD: How long did it run? Five years?

DAWSON: Yeah. Probably would have been about five or six years, I’d say. 

CRAWFORD: So, roughly 2007, 2008 to 2013?. 

DAWSON: Yeah, roughly. 

CRAWFORD: Was that a seasonal gig? Summertime tourist season only? 

DAWSON: Yep, summertime. 

CRAWFORD: Started up around maybe November, ran to April-May? Something like that?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: The semi-submersible was based out of Halfmoon Bay?

DAWSON: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Half-day trips?

DAWSON: They were only 45-minute trips around the Halfmoon Bay area. Until later in the years, when we relocated it out to the Titi Islands.

CRAWFORD: Relocated the destination? Or relocated the departure?

DAWSON: The vessel out there, with a permanent mooring. 

CRAWFORD: People took a shuttle over to the semi-submersible? 

DAWSON: They would take the ferry over there, tied alongside, transfer the people, swap the moorings, and then go from there.

CRAWFORD: Oh, I see. But, it was based out of Halfmoon Bay for the first two or three or four years? 

DAWSON: I think for the first four years. And then I think we did maybe one possibly two seasons out at the Islands. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. For the first years you ran multiple trips per day from the Halfmoon Bay wharf?

DAWSON: I think we did three or four 45 minute to an hour trips, around the shoreline of Halfmoon Bay.

CRAWFORD: And for the last couple of years, the decision was made to base the semi-submersible out at the Titi Islands. You did the tours out there?

DAWSON: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: What was the reason for relocation?

DAWSON: Well, the belief that there was probably more to see out there for people. Looking back at it, I don’t think you could beat Halfmoon Bay, for what you could actually see. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of diversity?

DAWSON: Yeah. But when we got out, there were certain things we could see. There were Seals out there, there were bigger schools of fish. 

CRAWFORD: That’s an interesting thing. It will become I think an important part of our conversation later on, because there a very few people who have your kind of experience. Both in terms of seeing underwater from that type of vessel, but also what you actually saw in Halfmoon Bay versus out around the Titi Islands. Even if it was only for a couple of seasons. 

DAWSON: Yep. Probably two years, I’d say. Two seasons. 

CRAWFORD: If I’m doing the math right, the semi-submersible started up about the same year as the Shark cage diving out at Edwards?

DAWSON: Yeah, sounds about right. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. At the end of the second season, why was the decision made to end the semi-submersible program?

DAWSON: Too many weather variables, really. When you’re out in that area, you don’t have a lot of shelter from anything. And once you start cancelling trips, due to bad weather ...

CRAWFORD: The business model?

DAWSON: Yeah. It doesn’t work.

CRAWFORD: And people want to book things with a degree of certainty. If the weather is like lately ... you know, beautiful day today, yesterday the exact opposite. 

DAWSON: Yeah. You wouldn’t be going anywhere near it, yesterday. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. After the semi-submersible, you went back to working the ferry?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Nowadays, is it the case that you Skipper the ferry predominantly on the Bluff-Halfmoon Bay run? 

DAWSON: It’s predominantly the Straits nowadays, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And that’s pretty much your full-time gig, leading up to the present?

DAWSON: It is, yeah. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: In a very general sense, to what extent has Māori culture and knowledge affected what you know about New Zealand coastal ecosystems in general, not necessarily the Sharks? On a rough scale, Very Low, Low, Medium, High, Very High?

DAWSON: I don’t have a huge amount of knowledge about it. Growing up, a few friends were Māori. And dropping off Muttonbirders - that sort of stuff. There is no Māori blood in my family at all. 

CRAWFORD: But six generations on an Island that has strong Māori presence. That's git to have an effect.

DAWSOM. I’d say Medium. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. More than a passing knowledge. What about Science? How much has that kind of knowledge contributed to your knowledge, on that same scale?

DAWSON: I’d put it at Medium as well. Medium to High.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I'm going to push that to the High side, because of your Skippering experience and you made references to watching documentaries. 

DAWSON: Yeah.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: What is your first memory of either hearing about or seeing a White Pointer?

DAWSON: First memory would be ... I can always remember my Father had Great White Shark teeth that he had [copse??]. I don’t know where or when. He made them into a necklace and earrings for my Mother, So, that was probably my first ever thought of knowing about the Great Whites. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how old were you when you learned about them?

DAWSON: I would have been anywhere from seven to nine. 

CRAWFORD: Was that a White Pointer he had caught? 

DAWSON: I believe so, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know how he caught it? 

DAWSON: I’ve got a funny feeling it would have been in a Greenbone net. 

CRAWFORD: Incidental catch. So, he was targeting something else?

DAWSON: Yeah. A by-catch. Then after that, I was a wee bit older - like primary school years. I think we were swimming at Bathing Beach one time, we were told to get out of the water. I think a plane flying over must have spotted two Great Whites doing the rounds of Halfmoon Bay, and they set a Shark net across there. The next day, two big Great Whites were caught in the same area where we were swimming.

CRAWFORD: Turns out that is a very significant event in this community that I’ve heard about several times from different people. In some ways, it’s remarkable the significance of the event, and in some ways its remarkable the different perspectives of the people sharing their memories of the same event. You were actually on Bathing Beach at the time? Swimming recreationally, or as part of swimming class? 

DAWSON: No, just playing as kids. Me and my Brothers and friends. 

CRAWFORD: And word came to the beach?

DAWSON: I can’t remember. I think someone must have come down to the beach, and told us to stay out of the water.

CRAWFORD: Was it the case that, as a result of the Sharks being seen, that the nets went out? Do you remember that? Or were the nets already out? 

DAWSON: No, they went out as a result of being seen. I could be wrong, but I believe that the planes coming over had spotted them. A couple of circles around the Bay. Identified what it was. 

CRAWFORD: Right. One of the other important things about this event was 'Sharks' plural. Do you remember how many? 

DAWSON: Yes. I believe ... not 100 percent, but I believe two. I think the way the community worked, and things were then ... kids swim there, and these Sharks were doing the rounds past there ...

CRAWFORD: The White Pointers had to be removed? 

DAWSON: They had to go, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: That’s consistent with what I’ve heard from other people, in the sense that Halfmoon Bay had a line. If the White Pointers were outside that line, then that’s fine. If the White Pointers came inside that line, then the community - or some part of the community -takes action.

DAWSON: That’s right, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Of all the years that you spent in Halfmoon Bay as a kid, was that the first time you recall it being an immediate thing? When you were told to stay out of the water at the beach? 

DAWSON: Yeah. It's alright being at the beach. But don’t go in the water. 

CRAWFORD: You would have been how old do you figure, when that happened? 

DAWSON: Yeah, probably eight or nine. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did it happen in your youth again? That there was some kind of community alert to get out of the water, because there were White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay?

DAWSON: No, no. 

CRAWFORD: So, just the once.

DAWSON: Only once, that I can recall. 

CRAWFORD: Even later, as an adult?

DAWSON: Yep, even as an adult. The only other one I’ve heard of in the last years, is since the Shark cage diving. I don’t know whether it’s correct or not, but people have said they’ve seen Sharks come through the Bay. And that's from usually people in a house out on a hill or something like that. 

CRAWFORD: Really?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: This is the first time I’ve heard about that. I’ve noticed myself as a matter a fact, when I walked back from Ackers Point ... There are a couple of houses elevated up on the east side of Halfmoon Bay, that are strategically located - they would have a particularly good vantage point for seeing White Pointers swimming around the inner waters of Halfmoon Bay, depending on the conditions. 

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: You’re the first person I’ve heard kind of talk about that. It’s not really 'surveillance', because they’re not they're not looking for White Pointers in an organized way.

DAWSON: No. 

CRAWFORD: But those houses are in a position where, if a White Pointer was out there, and it was near the surface, and if conditions was particularly clear - they could or would see it.

DAWSON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you recall if that has happened? 

DAWSON: Well, it definitely did happen once, that I’ve heard through people. I heard directly from the person that ... this particular lady's not alive anymore, but from her house up on the hill by Bathing Beach, she believed she’d seen a Shark in Halfmoon Bay. 

CRAWFORD: Who was this lady?

DAWSON: It was Margaret [Fearhall??]. Yeah, she had a house up on the hill there.

CRAWFORD: By Bathing Beach?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Well, definitely something to consider. Maybe deploying webcams at those elevated houses overlooking Halfmoon or Horseshoe Bays. Maybe real-time for the community to keep an eye on? Maybe also using machine-learning software to do more in-depth analysis to try and describe White Pointer trips into the Bays?

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: I'd like to ask a little bit more about your recollection of what happened with those White Pointers that came in when you were at Bathing Beach. Specifically, about the nets that were deployed to try and remove them. Your recollection is that, the next day White Pointers were caught in those nets?

DAWSON: That is my recollection. Whether it was a day or a couple of days after. But I do remember the word going around the community that these Sharks were in the net, and they were bringing them into the wharf.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember other people talking about having seen those White Pointers swimming around in the Bay?

DAWSON: No, I don’t really recall.

CRAWFORD: That’s fine. Do you remember the White Pointers actually being caught? Did you see them?

DAWSON: I remember the boat bringing the Shark nets up. And then coming into the wharf.

CRAWFORD: Where was that boat lifting the Shark nets?

DAWSON: At Bathing Beach. Just outside Bathing Beach. 

CRAWFORD: A couple hundred metres?

DAWSON: Oh, just off the shore, probably. A hundred metres off the shoreline. I believe it was across the mouth of Bathing Beach area. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember being on the shore, seeing the boat lifting the nets?

DAWSON: Not physically lifting them. But I remember the boat being over there pulling them in. And word got around the community. It was quite a gathering down on the wharf, waiting for them.

CRAWFORD: Were you on the wharf when the boat came in? 

DAWSON: Yes. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember who was Skippering the boat?

DAWSON: I remember which boat it was. I’m pretty sure it was the [McLaughland??] which would have been Joe Cave at the time, I'm assuming.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember anybody that was in charge, or appeared to be doing things on the boat or on the wharf? 

DAWSON: The only one I can sort of remember was Zane Smith. He was there, whether he was helping them lift or not. I can’t recall anyone else. 

CRAWFORD: I interviewed Zane last night. Do you remember how many White Pointers there were brought in to the wharf?

DAWSON: Just the two, I believe. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember anything specifically about them?

DAWSON: Just remember that one was larger than the other. I can’t recall a lot more about it. 

CRAWFORD: I imagine people were taking pictures?

DAWSON: Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember anything about people cutting open the White Pointers? To see what they had been eating?

DAWSON: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Evidently, it made quite an impression on some people.

DAWSON: Yeah. I don’t recall anything like that. 

CRAWFORD: I know this is a difficult question, but did you have the sense that the warning in conjunction with the nets in conjunction with the catching ... did you get the sense that maybe the community felt safer afterwards?

DAWSON: I suppose as a young kid, you’re probably thinking that the danger’s now gone. Not realizing that there’s a lot more numbers out there. And maybe they’re doing the same route for food? I don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. What did your parents or the old-timers say about it? What was the common wisdom of the day, in terms of guidance to kids - especially at your age, when you’= were out there rowing your dinghy? Did your Dad, who was a fisherman, or your family, or anybody else in that kind of older generation ... did they give you advice in terms of what to do, or where to not go, or things to watch out for?

DAWSON: Not really, no. I don’t know if the sightings of Great Whites were quite as much so, as they are now. I know they’ve always been there. But we never really had any big warnings about the Sharks, you know? The only funny thing was when we used to be diving, my Grandfather always said "If you see a Great White, throw a handful of shit in his eyes". And before you could say "Where am I going to get that from?", he’d say "Don’t worry, it’ll be there". [both laugh] That’s the only thing that I remember from being young, and diving - if I see a Shark. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Well, that's traditional, inter-generational knowledge. For sure.

DAWSON: It was never really a big deal, I don’t think. Nothing was really drummed into us. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of your personal observations, did you ever encounter any White Pointers in the wild?

DAWSON: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: In your youth, when you were mostly constrained to Halfmoon or Horseshoe Bays or Paterson Inlet, did you see any White Pointers?

DAWSON: No. Only the ones that were caught in the Shark nets. 

CRAWFORD: Other than those two White Pointers caught off Bathing Beach, did you know of any others caught in the big Shark nets?

DAWSON: Yeah. The only other ones that I knew about were caught at Ocean Beach after the Whale stranding. Just at the Neck right over here. My younger Brother caught one.

CRAWFORD: Let’s go back to Halfmoon Bay. You never saw any White Pointers swimming around Halfmoon Bay?

DAWSON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Had you heard from other people, that they had seen any White Pointers swimming in Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay? Do you remember?

DAWSON: Nothing that sticks out, no. I don’t remember there being huge sightings of them really, in the Bay area.

CRAWFORD: As a dinghy-boy in your early teens, did you see any White Pointers on any of those trips? Or did any of the Pāua divers you were working with see any White Pointers? 

DAWSON: Not that I was aware of. They never let me know, if they did. For all the times I’ve been dinghy-boying, I’ve never seen a Shark. Even up to a few years ago, I was still doing the old Pāua diving trip as a dinghy-boy. And literally, I’ve never seen a Great White Shark during those trips. 

CRAWFORD: Did any of the old Pāua divers talk about places around the Island that were known to be 'Sharky'?

DAWSON: I did hear down in Doughboy Bay, I think one of the divers had a little Swim-By as such. Just a wee look, and then they left again. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any other stories or general references by the old-timers?

DAWSON: I remember up in Waituna Bay, Dad always used to say it was the home of the Great Whites up there. When he was fishing. But I never saw any up through there. I used to go past when I was fishing. I think the other place must’ve been up around Smoky. But I never saw any there, either. 

CRAWFORD: Did you guys ever fish up among the Titi Islands, the northern Titis? Or was it mostly along the actual shoreline of Stewart Island?

DAWSON: Yeah, we did a wee bit out at Bench Island, and around there, with Ian. But I still don’t recall seeing anything at all. 

CRAWFORD: Before we wrap up this part of the interview, I wanted to get back to what the old-timers said. You said the Titi Islands were kind of known to be Sharky. I want to move the conversation more to what the heck these animals are doing here at Stewart Island in the first place. Was there ever anything from the old-timers about patterns in place or time? Or some insights into what they thought was so important for the White Pointers here? Stewart Island or the Foveaux Strait region?

DAWSON: Not that I can really recall from the old-timers. It’s just that you’ve seen a big change around here. A long time ago, when the Sharks would come around the boats, they’d either try to catch them or shoot them. Nowadays, it’s the total opposite, where they’re a protected species, and they come around looking now. 

CRAWFORD: But in terms of an Islander’s perspective ... is there a period of time when these animals are not around or at least not abundant? And then a period of time when they are? 

DAWSON: Oh, definitely. Winter-time they seem to disappear. You don’t seem to see or hear about them anymore.

CRAWFORD: Islanders are still out on the water in the winter. So, it’s not that everyone’s cozied up at home in front of the fire. They’re still out fishing, boating, working?

DAWSON: Oh, definitely. Everyone’s out and about, doing it. The Sharks are just not seen as much. Obviously we know now, with the technology ...

CRAWFORD: Right. But what I’m trying to get to is, what was the common knowledge amongst the old-timers - even your parent’s generation - in terms of where the White Pointers were, if they weren’t here in the winter? Didn’t people have ideas about that?

DAWSON: No, not really. 

CRAWFORD: It was known that when they were here during the season, your summer primarily. You mentioned before the Seal colonies and the feeding. Was that the general idea, that the White Pointers were here for feeding? 

DAWSON: I think so, yeah. That’s when the Fur Seal pups were about. So, it all sort of just made sense that the food was there then, and that’s when they were here. 

CRAWFORD: Did anyone ever talk about the possibility that they could also be here for reproduction? 

DAWSON: Never. I’d never really heard much discussion about that. 

CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember anybody talk about seeing anything that could have maybe been courtship behaviour between a pair of large White Pointers? Anything like that?

DAWSON: No, I suppose it wasn't something that people got into as much, back then. It wasn’t an interest, I suppose. They saw one, and that was about it. Or they caught one. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Now, let’s fast forward to the more recent White Pointer scientific research that's been going on in this region. When was the first time that you recall people doing that kind of science research here? 

DAWSON: I suppose it was when DOC started doing their tagging program. It was DOC and NIWA I’m assuming, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When that start, roughly? Do you remember? 

DAWSON: Oh, I don’t know.

CRAWFORD: And when they were here, did they communicate what the purpose of their research was? 

DAWSON: Not a great deal, that I can recall. 

CRAWFORD: It was just done. 

DAWSON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember hearing any stories about what they were doing? What they were finding? 

DAWSON: No. The only things I kind of remember is them bringing the Sharks around their boat, trying to tag them. All the different ones they could see. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember anything about different types of tags that they would use for different reasons?

DAWSON: I do remember they put those buoys in. I can’t remember what they’re called now. 

CRAWFORD: Hydroacoustic receivers?

DAWSON: Yeah. In different locations, to see where they were going.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember where those buoys were deployed? 

DAWSON: Yeah. There was one off Bench Island, in the corner there. One at Bullers Point. One at the end of Ulva Island. I think there was another one ... Native Island.

CRAWFORD: Any in Horseshoe Bay or Halfmoon Bay? 

DAWSON: There may have been, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What do you maybe know might’ve come from those hydroacoustic studies? What did they learn about the White Pointers that had these hydroacoustic transmitters on them? Where were they moving?

DAWSON: I think they probably just learned about areas where they were going, where they weren’t aware. I believe one time, they said there was a whole lot of them went up into the Inlet somewhere.

CRAWFORD: Paterson Inlet?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever go to any of the public presentations at the community centre or anything? 

DAWSON: I don’t know if I did, actually.

CRAWFORD: What about the satellite tagging, the GPS satellite tagging?

DAWSON: Yeah. I did hear that, obviously in the end of summer and that, they would disappear way offshore. 

CRAWFORD: Long migrations?

DAWSON: Yeah, big ones.

CRAWFORD: And then some of the animals come right back to very same place. 

DAWSON: And the amazing ability, to be able to navigate. All the time. 

CRAWFORD: So, from an Islander’s perspective, some of the Science knowledge that was coming in ... people didn’t know some of these crazy things about what the White Pointers were actually doing out there.

DAWSON: No, not at all. 

CRAWFORD: In this entire region, all of the south end of South Island, Foveaux Strait, all of the Islands around Stewart Island - do you ever remember hearing about anything that would constitute a Level 4 encounter? A White Pointer involved with a Human in a vessel, or with a Human in the water, but high intensity. Including possibility of an attack, but could be anything high intensity?

DAWSON: No. The only sort of thing, there was one of the boats around here - it might have even been Johnny Leask’s boat, where one grabbed at the rudder or the bow of the boat. I think he might've got a tooth out of it.

CRAWFORD: So, there was an interaction there. That would be a Level 4 for sure. Anything else like that, Shark-boat high intensity?

DAWSON: Not that I can recall, no. 

CRAWFORD: Any Shark-Human encounters? A swimmer, a boarder, a Pāua diver, a scubadiver? Any type of high-intensity interaction directly with a White Pointer? 

DAWSON: I heard of one ... I think it was out Bench Island, or something like that. I believe someone got bitten on the leg there one year, when they were diving.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember what the circumstances were for that? 

DAWSON: I don’t know. To be honest, I don't know if it had been a Great White, myself. A big bite on the leg by one of them, you know - it's gonna be pretty severe.

CRAWFORD: Even a case of mistaken identity could be lethal. 

DAWSON: Yeah, definitely.

CRAWFORD: Anything on the other side of the Strait? You hear of anything like that around Bluff, Riverton, even getting over to the Catlins? Anything Level 4 around there that you may have heard about? 

DAWSON: I heard about something out of Oreti Beach one time. But once again, I don’t know ... The only other one’s Campbell Island, way down south was that attack. 

CRAWFORD: Which I think blew everybody here away. 

DAWSON: Yeah. Didn’t even know they were down there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Didn’t even know they were there. And I think that’s just another indication of how little we know about these White Pointers. 

DAWSON: Oh, for sure. 

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

 CRAWFORD: Let's get back to that first encounter you had with a White Pointer. I think you said you and your younger Brother had a setnet out?

DAWSON: We were trying to catch bait for our Craypots, with a net.

CRAWFORD: Roughly how old were you?

DAWSON: Twelve, thirteen maybe?

CRAWFORD: What time of year was it?

DAWSON: Must have been spring. Just before spring, maybe. 

CRAWFORD: Where were you?

DAWSON: We were actually in Paterson Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?

DAWSON: Top end of Ulva Island. I can’t remember the rules and regulations ... we probably should not have had our nets in there. 

CRAWFORD: And you were trying to catch bait for Crayfishing?

DAWSON: Yeah, for little Craypots

CRAWFORD: You were using a little gillnet, a setnet?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What happened?

DAWSON: We stretched it across a wee piece of the bay. I think we were going back the next morning, and the weather was that rough we didn’t get back to it. The following day, when we went back there to pick it up, the two floats were right close together. Which indicated to us something big's happened with the net. As we started to pull it in, I just remember a big tail coming up. And yeah, it was one, about 12-foot Great White wrapped fully in the net. 

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing it was dead?

DAWSON: Yeah, drowned. 

CRAWFORD: What depth of water was that, roughly? Do you remember?

DAWSON: It’s pretty shallow in close. It wouldn’t have been more than 5 metres?

CRAWFORD: Prior to that incident, do you remember anyone talking about seeing White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?

DAWSON: No. Not back then. Not that I can recall. 

CRAWFORD: So, this came as quite a big surprise to you and your Brother then?

DAWSON: Oh, it did, Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What the hell do you think that White Pointer was doing there? In Paterson Inlet?

DAWSON: My thoughts are probably vibrations of fish caught in the net probably attracted it.

CRAWFORD: That’s possible.

DAWSON: Yeah, well I suppose. Fish that are stranded or fighting or putting out those vibrations. I would say they’d get picked up pretty quick, the wounded fish. And I’d say it's - just my thoughts - I’d say it's probably come in, pick these fish up, and doing so got himself caught in the net. 

CRAWFORD: Not gilled in the net, because this would be very small mesh, relatively speaking. But wrapped up in the net. 

DAWSON: Wrapped up, yeah.

CRAWFORD: What did you guys do?

DAWSON: We pulled it to the surface - we were in a 16-foot speed boat. Wee aluminum boat. We strapped it alongside, and we pulled into a shallow beach where we pulled it up. We gutted it, rolled it back into the boat. There was two or three of us, and we did circles in this wee bay, till we got there at on the plane. And headed straight for home.

CRAWFORD: Coming around Ackers Point, and then bringing it back in to the Halfmoon Bay wharf? 

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you cut the stomach open, do you remember what was in it?

DAWSON: I think it was mainly fish frames. Blue Cod frames. 

CRAWFORD: What happened when you got the White Pointer back to the wharf?

DAWSON: I remember ringing Dad, and telling him to come down and have a look what we caught. 

CRAWFORD: You didn’t tell him it was a White Pointer?

DAWSON: No. The picture on his face was priceless. [both laugh]

DAWSON: It was about 12-foot, because we had it stretched - tail was touching the motor and nose was right up forward on it.

CRAWFORD: I bet you have a picture of that, don’t you?

DAWSON: I do somewhere. But you think I can find it? 

CRAWFORD: I’m interested in the reaction of the people at the wharf. Did it appear to come as a surprise to everybody else? That these two boys had just caught a 12-foot White Pointer in Paterson Inlet?

DAWSON: Yeah. Well, at the time I don’t think we told people it was in Paterson’s Inlet, Because I think we’d figured out "Shit. We’re not meant to have our nets in there." [silence, then both laugh]

CRAWFORD: Didn’t anybody ask you where this White Pointer came from? Or did you kind of ... a separate story came out? 

DAWSON: A different location was told. 

CRAWFORD: Looking back at it now ... I mean, obviously kids do what kids do. But where did they think this White Pointer had been caught?

DAWSON: I think we told them around the Neck, which is not far. 

CRAWFORD: Not far, but on the outside rather than inside Paterson Inlet itself?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

DAWSON: Young and dumb. [both laugh]

CRAWFORD: Maybe just young. Was there anything else about that incident that was notable or that stuck in your mind?

DAWSON: No, not really. The only thing I suppose ... I perceived White Pointers to be mammal eaters, till we cut it open and seen just fish frames. Maybe that changed my thoughts, to say that juveniles are maybe fish eaters till they get to a certain age.

CRAWFORD: Yes, it is very likely a developmental or an age-related progression in diets. The interesting thing there is that, yes the stomach contents were fish. But more specifically, they were fish frames. And those fish frames had to have been created by Humans. 

DAWSON: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: You were reasonably confident these were fish bones, not Seal bones or anything else? 

DAWSON: No, no. They were definitely fish frames. I recall seeing definitely fish frames from a commercial fishing vessel. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Ok. I think maybe you said you'd had two fishing encounters with White Pointers? What was the other encounter? How old were you?

DAWSON: Sixteen maybe. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year was this?

DAWSON: Yeah, I can’t be too clear what time of year it was. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What happened?

DAWSON: One of the main cleaning bays - which is Deadman’s Bay - a lot of commercial boats would clean their catch in it. We’d heard rumours through the village that the odd Shark would turn up out there, when they were cleaning. We had decided we wanted to try and catch one of these Sharks, so we set ourselves up a Shark line, big hook, steel tracers, floats, buoys. All that sort of stuff.

CRAWFORD: This wasn't on a rod-and-reel, was it?

DAWSON: No. Hand rope, 12-mill rope.

CRAWFORD: What was the rope tied to?

DAWSON: It was tied to the boat. [chuckles] Our 12-foot aluminium boat. 

CRAWFORD: Young and dumb, again?

DAWSON: Young and dumb. Yeah. Wouldn’t dream of it now. So, we went out there. Oh, the other thing in the same spot, was a mooring block. I believe that maybe we had tied one end of the rope to that mooring block, and we could have cast it off if we needed to. 

CRAWFORD: Young and ...

DAWSON: Dumb. 

CRAWFORD: Mostly dumb, not entirely dumb. [both laugh]

DAWSON: So, we went to the fish shed, and we loaded up ...

CRAWFORD: Which fish shed?

DAWSON: Main fish shed in Halfmoon Bay. With all their frames, Blue Cod frames. Knowing that’s what they were hanging around for. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

DAWSON: We went out there, and we baited several hooks. 

CRAWFORD: What size hooks?

DAWSON: One was quite small, probably six inches. Roughly. 

CRAWFORD: Six inches? 

DAWSON: Within twenty minutes, we had hooked what was probably around a 12-foot Great White. 

CRAWFORD: You took a few Codframes ...

DAWSON: Yeah, we had a few. Fed them onto the hook. 

CRAWFORD: And you had multiple hooks deployed?

DAWSON: No, I think we just had one. One good-sized hook, and a steel trace to a rope. We went out started feeding frames over. And one turned up

CRAWFORD: When the White Pointer turned up, was it circling? Did you see it feeding on the frames?

 DAWSON: I believe it was feeding along the bottom. When we seen it turn up, we stopped throwing any more in.

CRAWFORD: How does a White Pointer feed on frames on the bottom?

DAWSON: Don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: Because it doesn’t have that kind of bottom-feeding mouth?

DAWSON: No, it doesn’t

CRAWFORD: And It can’t suck food in - to my knowledge. 

DAWSON: I don’t know how it could. 

CRAWFORD: It must have shoveled the Codframes in, somehow?

DAWSON: Yeah, must have been. 

CRAWFORD: So, you didn’t actually see it feeding?

DAWSON: I know he was down low, and it looked as though he was working the bottom - getting those frames.

CRAWFORD: What happened next? 

DAWSON: We put the line in with the hook on it, and he took it. 

CRAWFORD: Took it casually?

DAWSON: Just came past in a swoop, and just grabbed it. 

CRAWFORD: Was the animal kind of jerking it around, or ...

DAWSON: Very relaxed. 

CRAWFORD: Casual?

DAWSON: Very casual

CRAWFORD: The whole time that it was eating the frames?

DAWSON: Yeah. Until it took the hook. Once it was caught, it started to do big wide circuits around. Me and my Brother were holding on to it. Trying to feel the power of it. Eventually we thought "Let it swim a bit, tire itself out". We were gonna pull it alongside and shoot it. We had a rifle with us. So, we played it for a while. 

CRAWFORD: What’s 'a while' in this case?

DAWSON: Maybe half-an-hour, forty minutes? We got it to come alongside the boat, at one particular point. 

CRAWFORD: How big was the boat again?

DAWSON: Sixteen-foot. 

CRAWFORD: And how big was this White Pointer, relative to the boat?

DAWSON: Estimating round about 12-foot. It was just under the same size as us. We let it run out of a bit of energy. We were pulling alongside, coming in ready to shoot it, and at the same time I caught my ... the rope had gone around the lead of the motor, and the Shark was about to power off again. So, we just dropped everything, sat down, swung the whole boat around. At that time, we probably should have given up. 

CRAWFORD: You reckon??

DAWSON: But we let it tire out a bit more. Eventually, I think it straightened the hook and got off. And that was the last we saw of that one. 

CRAWFORD: It straightened the hook on a 6-inch shank?

DAWSON: Yeah, I think it was around that size. 

CRAWFORD: Half inch diameter?

DAWSON: Maybe a little bit smaller. Once that happened, probably only 5-10 minutes after that ... a really, really, big one - which we estimated was probably 18-foot - I’m assuming it was a female, she turned up pretty much five minutes after that. And yeah, we were both looking over, slowly sinking into the side of the boat, thinking "Shit look at the size of that!" I believe we had another Shark hook in the water, and it come up and grabbed that one. It was quite a bit bigger Shark hook.

CRAWFORD: As in, 12 inches?

DAWSON: Yeah, possibly. Attached to a Mussel float, maybe a metre under the water - which was attached to us. We made a mad scramble to untie lines, because we did not want that attached to us. It did a couple big thrashes of its tail - [halfed up??] the Mussel float, straightened up the hook. Gone. That was the end of that. 

CRAWFORD: Wait a sec. Somewhere in there, I missed the where the larger Shark ... did you say it was a female?

DAWSON: I’m guessing it was a female. From what I understand. 

CRAWFORD: Because it was a significantly larger White Pointer?

DAWSON: Particularly around. As it swum under the boat, its tail was still out there - and its snout was coming out past the boat. Both the pectoral fins visible on each side, under the boat. 

CRAWFORD: When it first came in, was it in that same kind of casual mode? Or was it a little more interested, and a little bit more focused? Was this maybe a simple Swim-By at first?

DAWSON: The first we sighted it, it was coming right under the boat. Possibly half-a-metre under the boat. 

CRAWFORD: So, you didn’t actually see it coming in?

DAWSON: No. 

CRAWFORD: And you didn’t see it doing any circling to begin?

DAWSON: No. 

CRAWFORD: The first time you saw it, it was directly under you? 

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: In general, there’s a classification of encounters that has developed during theses interviews. [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]. It seems this encounter was different, because you had Shark hooks in the water?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And also, as soon as the larger White Pointer came in it came under the boat, then it took the baited hook?

DAWSON: Came under the boat, I’m sure it did one turn, come - grab the hook.

CRAWFORD: Did you get the feeling on that turn, that it was still casual? Or was it a little bit sharper, and a little bit faster?

DAWSON: Still seemed fairly casual to me. I can’t recall it being ... the only time I think any aggression or any power that was put in, was when it realized it was hooked and attached to a float. 

CRAWFORD: Once it was hooked, how did it respond?

DAWSON: It started to thrash. Couple of big thrashes of its tail.

CRAWFORD: Thrashes to move itself away? Or thrashes to get off the hook?

DAWSON: I think to try to dive deep with what it had. 

CRAWFORD: What was the length between the float and the hook?

DAWSON: It was only probably a metre, two metres at the most. 

CRAWFORD: So, not only was it a hook - it was a hook close to the surface?

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: With pretty big floatation?

DAWSON: Mussel float.

CRAWFORD: I don’t know - how big is that?

DAWSON: Probably a good meter and a half high.

CRAWFORD: Oh, that’s a substantial float. I mean, you’re still talking about having a tonne of White Pointer on that line? 

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Definitely enough resistance on that line to alert and alarm the animal.

DAWSON: Oh, for sure. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What happened then?

DAWSON: When it had a couple of swoops of its tail, obviously to power off, or do what it was going to do. I quite clearly recall the Mussel float getting dunked down to about 3/4 depth, and then just rocketing back up. We pulled it up. The hook was straight.

CRAWFORD: The hook was still on it?

DAWSON: Yeah. It had just straightened the hook out. 

CRAWFORD: Did you keep that hook?

DAWSON: It would be somewhere.

CRAWFORD: I would like very much like to see it. That could have been the only thing that saved your lives.

DAWSON: Yeah. It’ll be somewhere. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Wow. I wasn't expecting that. You boys were scared shitless, I’m sure. 

DAWSON: Yeah, that was the end of that. 

CRAWFORD: White Pointer took off - you didn’t see it anymore?

DAWSON: Nah. As soon as it dunked, it was gone. 

CRAWFORD: Never paid any more attention to the boat?

DAWSON: No. It was a big, big, cluster of Codframes on a hook.  

CRAWFORD: Let’s talk about your ferry work shuttling between Bluff to Halfmoon Bay. I'm guessing that you've done that run now hundreds of times?

DAWSON: Oh, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When you've made that run, have you ever seen anything - either visually or electronically with the vessel's depth sounder - that you thought could have been White Pointers?

DAWSON: Twice. I’ve seen two of them airborne out of the water.

CRAWFORD: Really? Full-body breaches?

DAWSON: Full-body breaches. 

CRAWFORD: When was the first instance?

DAWSON: They were both in the same year, maybe three or four years ago.

CRAWFORD: Before, during or after you were Skippering the semi-submersible?

DAWSON: During that period, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What times of year did you see the breaches?

DAWSON: That would’ve been roughly summertime, January.

CRAWFORD: How far apart were the encounters?

DAWSON: Probably about a month apart, I’d say. Roughly. Maybe three weeks. I do recall them being reasonably close in timing.

CRAWFORD: Where?

DAWSON: The first one was out the back of Bluff Hill. Coming in, we were cruising - out off our starboard side, we both sort of looked up to see ... We didn’t see the exit out of the water, but it was on the way back down. And we both thought “Hang on. Was that a Dolphin?” And then we both realized the tail was the opposite way. And the sheer size of it - it had to be a Shark. The colouration. Everything. 

CRAWFORD: How much distance was between you and the shore?

DAWSON: Probably two to three hundred metres, I’d say. 

CRAWFORD: At that point, roughly over what depth of water were you?

DAWSON: Probably only about 20 metres, where it come out.

CRAWFORD: Did you notice anything in its mouth? A Seal or anything?

DAWSON: No. We didn’t see the mouth. Both times we went right to the spot to have a look, thinking "Well there must be some sort of debris or something,"

CRAWFORD: Right. Blood or something.

DAWSON: Yeah, something. And we didn’t see anything. No indication of anything.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember if there were Seals around that stretch of the mainland coastline over by Bluff Hill?

DAWSON: You always see Seals in there, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: You may not have seen Seals that day, but it’s a region where you would have seen them frequently?

DAWSON: Yeah, where you would spot Seals. For sure. 

CRAWFORD: When you coming from the tip of the Bluff, roughly how far in?

DAWSON: I would say around that contour line there.

CRAWFORD: Just past the point?

DAWSON: Still outside the point. We hadn't quite reached the lane. It was just off to our starboard side. I'd say 200, 300 metres at the most. Just slightly in front of us. I turned and said "Did you see that?" And we were both locked on. We’d both seen exactly what it was.

CRAWFORD: You were at the helm of the ferry?

DAWSON: Yes. Cory was right beside me, standing beside me.

CRAWFORD: Right. As they often are, when you're steaming - either talking or watching or doing whatever. And you both saw it, and it was ahead and to your starboard?

DAWSON: Yep. Ahead and to our starboard - I would say, about 2 o’clock. 

CRAWFORD: You had passengers onboard, but they would have been a bit below your seat. I'm guessing they might not have seen anything?

DAWSON: We had no reactions from any passengers at all. 

CRAWFORD: No 'Ooohs' or 'Aaahs'?

DAWSON: Nothing at all. 

CRAWFORD: You said your steamed immediately over to the site?

DAWSON: Went straight over to the site.

CRAWFORD: And you didn’t see anything. Just carried on to the Bluff wharf?

DAWSON: Yeah, didn’t see a single thing. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was your second instance of seeing a White Pointer breach?

DAWSON: The second one was inside Edwards Island, between Edwards and Fish Rock.

CRAWFORD: So, you had just passed Edwards? You were right in the middle of the channel between the Titi Islands and Halfmoon and Horseshoe?

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Alright. You were cruising along - what happened?

DAWSON: Same again. We didn’t catch it on the way up, it was on the way back down. Me and the same crew again, spotted it, massive splash, straight to the spot - once again, nothing.

CRAWFORD: And once again, nobody else onboard commented?

DAWSON: No one else saw anything.

CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember hearing from anyone else about them seeing White Pointer breeches around the island?

DAWSON: That’s the crazy thing, I’ve never heard of anyone else spotting or seeing that.

CRAWFORD: Because based on the interviews I’ve had so far, it is an exceptionally rare event. It’s so rare as to be puzzling. Because other places where there are aggregations of White Pointers - I think breaches, while still relatively rare, are seen with more frequency. 

DAWSON: Yeah, for sure. I'm aware of that. I doubted myself several times. But everything I replay back in my head ...

CRAWFORD: But there were two of you who saw it happen - both times. Who was your mate?

DAWSON: [Graham Nickle??]. He was my crew at the time. 

CRAWFORD: And the fact that it happened not once, but twice ...

DAWSON: Twice yeah. And in a similar period of time. Whether it was the same Great White or not?

CRAWFORD: With both of you seeing it?

DAWSON: Yeah. We're both certain that's what we saw. The only other thing to jump out of the water is a Dolphin, but not like that.

CRAWFORD: When you're Skippering the ferry, do you keep an eye on the sonar?

DAWSON: Yeah, at certain times. If something solid comes through, you definitely pick it up.

CRAWFORD: Do you have an target alarm, or anything that will alert? Or you just keep an eye on it?

DAWSON: Yeah, it’s always running. On a split screen, beside the GPS.

CRAWFORD: So, you’ve got active depth readings, plus you’ve got the chart?

DAWSON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever had any situations when you've had Whales underneath the ferry? Anything like that?

DAWSON: Generally, when we see Whales we tend to turn the sonar off. Sometimes we're thinking it scares them away.

CRAWFORD: Right. But have you ever seen something large on the sonar, before turning it off?

DAWSON: I have seen stuff that’s large on the sonar. But I can’t say what that is. It could be a huge school of fish.

CRAWFORD: Could be a school of fish. Or it could be a single large fish?

DAWSON: Could be anything. So, I can’t postively say what it is. 

CRAWFORD: Right. When you see those kinds of signals on the ferry, are they randomly interspersed along the ferry run? Or are there certain areas that you see them more than others?

DAWSON: It’s very infrequent, really.

CRAWFORD: As in, one every five years or so? That kind of thing?

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Any of the other ferry Skippers doing that run ever comment on anything regarding Sharks, in any way?

DAWSON: I think the odd one has seen a fin or something like that. I have seen other Sharks, but definitely not the size of a Great White. Just on the surface. Sorry ... just in the recent last couple of years, we did see one from the ferry, on the surface outside Paterson’s Inlet. It was cruising on the surface. We thought that was a Great White Shark as well. 

CRAWFORD: This was during one of your charter runs?

DAWSON: Yeah. I think we were heading into Big Glory, or something. It was in that same period of time as the semi-sub years. When we couldn’t get on the semi-sub, we would take people up into the marine farms. That was the time when we saw one.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That puts a general timestamp on the observation. Just outside of Paterson Inlet?

DAWSON: Yeah, it was more at the mouth of Paterson’s Inlet. We were cruising in, it was just off of Native Island. It was on the surface, heading into Paterson’s Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: This was you, your crew, and your passengers seeing the White Pointer?

DAWSON: We went to it. And we were steaming alongside. It didn’t seem bothered, at all. It was on the surface, which I found was weird. 

CRAWFORD: On the surface in terms of its fin was cutting? Or the back of the animal was out as well?

DAWSON: Just the fin, out of the water. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how big, if you had to guess?

DAWSON: Oh, I would say probably only 10-foot.

CRAWFORD: Approximately what distance when were you steaming alongside it?

DAWSON: We were probably thirty metres, forty metres off. 

CRAWFORD: It was swimming casually at the surface?

DAWSON: It was casually swimming, yeah. I did expect it just to bolt and go, but it didn’t. 

CRAWFORD: Approximately what depth of water?

DAWSON: That would’ve been twenty metres, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: As you were alongside this White Pointer, roughly how long did it stay on the surface?

DAWSON: Oh, it stayed on the surface probably ten minutes.

CRAWFORD: Ten minutes! With your vessel matching speed alongside?

DAWSON: Yeah, at least. It detoured a few times, and we just changed course. 

CRAWFORD: In that ten minutes, how far did it get? Did it reach Ulva Island?

DAWSON: No. It was probably just getting past Native Island.

CRAWFORD: But ten minutes. Wow. Even for such a prolonged encounter, it sounds like this was still more like a Level 1 Observation, because the White Pointer wasn't apparently coming to you or doing anything to indicate it was showing interest in your vessel?

DAWSON: No interest in us whatsoever. If anything, it was probably trying to detour away from us. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Getting back to your years running shuttles all around Stewart Island, much of which was getting hunting parties to and from their huts. That was you spending a significant amount of time all around the Island, in relatively nearshore waters. Did you see any other White Pointers during those trips?

DAWSON: Not that I can remember.

CRAWFORD: During the Muttonbird season, did you ever see any White Pointers out around the Islands in that period of time?

DAWSON: No, never saw any. It’s only in the more recent years that I’ve started to actually see them.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s talk about your years semi-submersible. If I recall correctly it ran for four years in Halfmoon Bay, and then another two out at the Titi Islands. Roughly 2008 to 2013?

DAWSON: Yep. I was one of two Skippers.

CRAWFORD: For the half-dozen years the semi-submersible was running in Halfmoon Bay, do you recall ever seeing any White Pointers?

DAWSON: No. Not at all.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember the other Skipper or crew seeing White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay?

DAWSON: No. You would definitely hear about it. No one ever saw anything in Halfmoon Bay. 

CRAWFORD: But you saw lots of other things on those trips. To what depth could you have seen from the semi-submersible? Roughly?

DAWSON: All days were different, depending on clarity. But you could probably see five or six metres, up to maybe ten meters. Some days were exceptional clarity, other days not. 

CRAWFORD: Give me an idea of the types of things you might see, by way of aquatic life. Especially stuff that’s in the meter-plus size range.

DAWSON: Meter-plus? Dolphins, Seals, Sea Lions.

CRAWFORD: You would see those mammals on a regular basis, or an exceptional basis?

DAWSON: Some years there would be a couple of Sea Lions hanging out in the Bay, and we would see them very regularly. Other years you get Dolphins coming in, maybe once a week. You could get in pretty close around with them. You’d see the odd Barracouta. Other than that, anything metre-plus would be kind of rare. 

CRAWFORD: For the two years that you ran the semi-submersible out of the Titi Islands, was there a dramatically different kind of flora and fauna? Was it a different ecosystem out there compared to Halfmoon Bay? Or was it similar?

DAWSON: It was similar in some ways. There was probably more schools of fish. A lot more Fur Seals around. Once they got used to the vessel, they would tend to hang around the windows, and that sort of stuff.

CRAWFORD: For the most part, were you under steam in the semi-submersible, when you were viewing?

DAWSON: Yeah, just a very slow idle. 

CRAWFORD: Was that the same, when you were out around the Titi Islands?

DAWSON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: When you were out at the Islands, did you pretty much following the depth contour around an Island? Or would you go between Islands?

DAWSON: Mainly it was in Jacky Lee Bay. The odd time, we’d shoot around the corner when the weather was good, knowing that it's very tidal around that area/ So, you’d definitely have to pick your days before you ventured any further out. 

CRAWFORD: Right. When you said in some ways Halfmoon Bay and the Titi Islands were similar, and in some ways they were different - in what ways were they generally similar?

DAWSON: Just the seaweed and that sort of stuff. A lot of seaweed, and kelps, and the rocky bottom. But the drop-off outside of Jacky Lee Bay dramatically dropped away. 

CRAWFORD: And how far does that drop-off go?

DAWSON: I don't know. Maybe fifteen or twenty meters.

CRAWFORD: So, from about five metres drop-off to twenty or twenty-five metres - just like that? 

DAWSON: Yeah, a big drop-off. Which should be optimal for Great Whites.

CRAWFORD: It is potentially the kind of habitat that a big apex predator Shark would like. When you ran the semi-submersible out at the Titi islands, and in particular, for the most part off of Jacky Lee, I’m presuming? 

DAWSON: We went around to Edwards a couple of times. 

CRAWFORD: During any of those semi-submersible cruises out at the Titi Islands, did you see White Pointers?

DAWSON: Yeah. The very first time we took it out to trial the area. We'd had a mooring put in.

CRAWFORD: Off Jacky Lee?

DAWSON: Yeah. Just in the Jacky Lee Bay area.

CRAWFORD: Is that on the eastern shore of the Island?

DAWSON: Yeah, more on the eastern side there. We were just having a bit of a cruise around with some of the managers on board. And then when we went to put it on the mooring, we heard a whole lot of noise from down below, so we went down - here was probably a 15-foot Great White, just cruising slowly past the windows, having a look. 

CRAWFORD: On the semi-submersible, was there a bottom window as well as side windows?

DAWSON: No. Just two side windows, slightly angled in. 

CRAWFORD: And this White Pointer, was it circling or what?

DAWSON: No. Just did a Swim-By. Almost coming to check out what was going on. 

CRAWFORD: The managers got quite the thrill?

DAWSON: Yeah, the managers and a couple of the crew.

CRAWFORD: People generally thought - if this was your test drive, it was going to be a good tourist draw?

DAWSON: It was awesome, yeah!

CRAWFORD: Was that first cruise out at Jacky Lee an exceptional event? Or was that a regular event - seeing White Pointers out there?

DAWSON: That was the only time at Jacky Lee Island I saw a Shark. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see any White Pointers anywhere else out at the Titi Islands? Any other time?

DAWSON: We did around Edwards Island. A couple of times when they were doing the Shark cage diving, we steamed over towards them. 

CRAWFORD: Oh, did you? I’m very interested to hear about this. The cage dive operations, was there one boat or two boats. Do you recall?

DAWSON: I think it was still two boats then, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. By the time you were out there with tourists, roughly what time of day would it have been?

DAWSON: More midday, sort of thing, Maybe 1 o'clock. 

CRAWFORD: So, they probably had been doing their thing for a while by that time?

DAWSON: In the morning, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And then you motored the semi-submersible over to Edwards. Roughly how close to their operations did you get?

DAWSON: Oh, we were probably a couple hundred yards off. 

CRAWFORD: What did you see?

DAWSON: It seemed to be that when we went over there in the middle of the day, they seemed to be lower in the water.

CRAWFORD: 'Lower' as in closer to the bottom?

DAWSON: Yeah, closer to the bottom. They weren’t right up at the surface as much.

CRAWFORD: Roughly what depth of water would that have been?

DAWSON: Probably about ten to fifteen metres. They weren’t right at the surface. From what I believe, earlier in the mornings they were right up around the surface area. Probably perfect feeding time. When we arrived, they were deeper in the water. They would come up around, and have a bit of a Swim-By, I suppose as a look. And then back down.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever get any of these White Pointers circling around the semi-submersible?

DAWSON: Not at our height. Lower down, they'd do a couple of circles, then they’d come up a wee bit closer, and then disappear again. 

CRAWFORD: At any given time when you were looking down, how many White Pointers might you have seen? 

DAWSON: Two to three.

CRAWFORD: Relative to each other, were they clustered or kind of spread out?

DAWSON: Yeah, they were all holding their own space. They weren’t close together. 

CRAWFORD: Were they constantly cruising around, even in a particular area?

DAWSON: In that same area as where the Shark boats were. 

CRAWFORD: What I’m trying to get at is, even though the White Pointers were keeping their distance - were they kind of crossing into common areas? Or did it appear as if they kept to different areas of their own?

DAWSON: They would cross over, yeah. But then one would head off in one direction, and the other one would come in for a look. Almost not intruding on each other's territory at all. 

CRAWFORD: Something like a bigger version of personal space?

DAWSON: Yeah, exactly.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever get any other sense of a kind of social behaviour amongst them? Any head shaking, or body arching, or fin stretches? Anything like that?

DAWSON: No, nothing else. 

CRAWFORD: Any differences, that you recall, in size? Or were they all pretty much the same size?

DAWSON: The ones that we saw were very similar in size, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And they were in that kind of middling size range?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Realizing that you and your Brother had already had a very close encounter in Deadman’s Bay, but realizing also that it’s a very different context when you’re looking through the semi-submersible windows ... do you think the White Pointers you say at Edwards were smaller, the same, or bigger than the large one at Deadman's?

DAWSON: Definitely smaller than the bigger one that we’d seen in Deadman’s. 

CRAWFORD: How many instances when you had the semi-submersible out and around Edwards Island while the cage dive operations were running there?

DAWSON: About three or four times at the most.

CRAWFORD: And of those three or four times, was it pretty much consistent observations every time? 

DAWSON: Yeah. Odd times we would go over, and they wouldn’t be there. We were told that they were there earlier, but they weren’t there then. I’d steam past on the ferry before doing marine nature cruises, looking at the bird life and the Seals and that - when we’d steam past the area, you’d see the odd one come past the boat for a Swim-By to have a look. See what’s going on.

CRAWFORD: But in the semi-submersible, when you went over to the cage dive operations, you’d get a unique perspective that no one else gets. You’d see a few White Pointers, kind of average size, and for the most part they were close to the bottom, with the occasional singleton rise and look-see?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: They might come up to investigate you, but did you see them go up to investigate the cage?

DAWSON: No, we weren’t really close enough.

CRAWFORD: You were too far away to see that type of thing?

DAWSON: The odd time we could see it. But not when there was anything around interacting with them, no. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. Does that pretty much summarize your White Pointer experiences with the semi-submersible? 

DAWSON: Yeah. I even went to the point of sending vibrations to get them interested, because we had speakers on the pod down below. We'd play some pretty heavy music with big bassy sounds to see if it would make any difference. To see if anything would come and investigate. But no, nothing. [both laugh]

CRAWFORD: I’m kind of curious to know, what’s 'heavy music' to a young fella like you?

DAWSON: Oh, a little AC/DC.

CRAWFORD: The White Pointers didn’t have a taste for it?

DAWSON: They didn’t have a taste for that sort of music, no.

CRAWFORD: Maybe you should’ve tried Bach or something. [both laugh]

CRAWFORD: Alright that’s very good and that’s very insightful. And yet again, you have surprised me, Tim. Other than the observations and encounters we've already discussed, have you seen White Pointers anywhere else? 

DAWSON: The only one other time was at Edwards Island, and that was long before the Shark cage diving started up. Just before the semi-sub started up. And I was aware that thee were Sharks in the area.

CRAWFORD: 'Around the area' meaning Edwards Island? That island in particular? Or the Titi Islands in general - Bench Island, Jacky Lee - all of them?

DAWSON: Yeah, in that whole area. 

CRAWFORD: You were aware, because it was common knowledge? 

DAWSON: Yeah, it was common knowledge. Fur Seal colony, it just all made sense that that’s where they would all be hanging out and feeding. And I went out there to show, I suppose it was a group of managers, and seeing maybe here was another tour line that we could go down. There was one that showed up around the stern of the boat briefly. They got a few photos, quite excited about it. And that was about it. 

CRAWFORD: Were you fishing or anything at the time? 

DAWSON: Yeah, we had a few fishing lines in the water. And of course we were feeding the Mollymawks with fishframes, and of course a few of them would be sinking down at the same time, I suppose. One come up and had a bit of a look, and disappeared again. 

CRAWFORD: I guess that would’ve been equivalent to, well puts it in Level 3 with Interest. Not just a Swim-By, but not much more either. 

DAWSON: No. 

CRAWFORD: By 'a look' what do you mean? Did it swim up to the surface, and then kind of roll over with an eye up? 

DAWSON: No, not an eye up. Just come past on the surface, and dived again. Looked as though  it was taking a couple of fishframes. 

CRAWFORD: So, it broke the surface of the water, then went down?

DAWSON: Yeah, it was visible. 

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

CRAWFORD: You’ve seen the cage tour dive operations, you’ve worked around there on the ferry, the semi-submersible and your charter boating. What do you know about the actual Shark cage dive operations? The cage dive boat leaves harbour with their punters, heads over to Edwards Island. Depending on wind and waves, they pick a spot on either side of the Island, they anchor or moor. Then what happens? 

DAWSON: I believe they're intelligent enough to know that when you drop that anchor, it’s like the dinner bell for the Sharks. They know the boats are there.

CRAWFORD: You’re one of the few people who has thought of the anchor hitting the bottom could be an important cue. The sound of the chain ...

DAWSON: It travels.

CRAWFORD: It dropping, it hitting, it dragging. But what makes you think that even anchoring is something that the Sharks would pick up on, and respond to?

DAWSON: Well, plenty of boats go by. But not all boats are there to feed or berley. I think the ones that do drop their anchor ...

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s go through your understanding of the process. I’m trying to lay down a common understanding of what they’re actually doing, and then we have a discussion of what you think the effects are of that. They arrive at Edwards, they anchor, then what happens?

DAWSON: Start a berley trail. Get people in water. 

CRAWFORD: Yep. Cage in the water, if they see any White Pointers, get the people in the water.

DAWSON: Yeah.

DAWSON: Then I believe there’s a throw bait they're allowed. A Tuna throw bait.

CRAWFORD: That’s an important thing, because when the DOC permit came in, it completely prohibited any feeding. And if the throw-bait was lost to the White Pointers, there's a strict limit on the number of times it can be replaced. But that’s basically it - burley and a throw bait. 

DAWSON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: The people go into the cage, they see what they see, they have their photos, and this goes on for a while. At the end of their visit, the operator lifts the cage, they pull anchor, head back home. 

DAWSON: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: That operation, as described - do you think that it has an important, lasting effect on the White Pointers? 

DAWSON: Most definitely. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that? 

DAWSON: Well, they know easy food. The other thing I’m not really too sure about, whether the difference between berleying where you’re teasing more so - and when you’re feeding, they’re actually there to get food. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I’m going to take you through a series of sub-questions, adding one element of complexity all the way through. When the boat arrives, even before the anchor is cast, do you think as a result of previous experience wit cage dive operations, the White Pointers are more likely to be at that place? Edwards Island, in this case? Would they associate the smell of food from the burley, and therefore hang around the cage dive locations more than they otherwise would? 

DAWSON: Well, I think in general the Sharks are probably coming here for the breeding.

CRAWFORD: 'Here' as in Stewart Island? 

DAWSON: As in Stewart Island. From what I know, I'm assuming the males turn up first, they possibly sort out dominance or ranking much the same as a Stag will do. Once the dominance is sorted out, the ranking or pecking order, I believe that’s when the big females start turning up a bit later on after that. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you believe that? Other than it making sense based on your experience with other animals like Deer? Do you have any specific information about the White Pointers here that would suggest they're here for mating? 

DAWSON: I don’t have any, no. I just think it’s the way the animal kingdom sort of goes. You know, you have a pecking order and things like that. That’s only me, thinking that.

CRAWFORD: No, please don’t misunderstand me. I'm not criticizing in any way. It's just a standard thing for me when a person says something important - or what I think is important like that - I always ask “That’s what you think. Why do you think that?” If it just makes sense to you, based on your understanding of the animal world - that’s completely fine. But let's get back to that first question in the sequence: do you think that White Pointers associate Edwards Island with the smell of food, and therefore hang around there more than they otherwise would?

DAWSON: More so, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. The next part in the sequence is - do you think that the White Pointers experiencing the smell of food at cage dive operations, are more likely to investigate boats of any kind? Boats at Edwards some other time? Or boats anywhere?

DAWSON: In that area, I’d say quite possibly, I also beieve they probably know the sounds of the specific boats. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's stay with the idea of associating food smell with presence of boats in general - not the specific cage dive boats, just yet. Do you think that if you and I took some new boat over to the other side of Stewart Island ... say Codfish Island on the west side. If the same number of White Pointers were there as at Edwards, would our boat get more interest from the White Pointers at Edwards, than we would from the White Pointers at Codfish?

DAWSON: I’d say so, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So now, from what you said about those specific boats, would you say it’s something specific about the configuration of the cage dive boats - the way the boat looks, the sounds they make, electromagnetic fields, whatever? Some specific property of the cage dive boats that you think the Sharks detect, recognize, and associate with the smell of food?

DAWSON: I’d say definitely something they cue into. Whether it’s the vibration of the motor, or the prop wash, the sound of that underwater. 

CRAWFORD: What makes you think that? 

DAWSON: Well, I know that every boat has a different sound, when you’re in the hull of a boat underwater. And one goes past.

CRAWFORD: Very different sounds?

DAWSON: They are, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know that from Pāua diving? Do you know that from your years in the semi-submersible? 

DAWSON: I know that from diving, and I know that from being in the hull of the ferry when I’m checking the motors in the morning. Or down there at the wharf. They all have different sounds.

CRAWFORD: We know that Sharks are loaded with all sorts of sensory receptors. But do you think White Pointers have the capacity to actually tell the difference between one of the cage dive tour boats and any other boat?

DAWSON: I think they can. Definitely. 

CRAWFORD: So, if a cage dive boat was in some other location - say, Paterson Inlet or somewhere else - do you think the Sharks would associate the sound of that boat with food? 

DAWSON: It’s hard to say. I still don’t know enough about why they are congregating in that area. They’ve chosen a specific area because they know that’s where Sharks have been congregating.

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. But do you think the White Pointers are more likely to approach those specific cage dive boats elsewhere, because of their previous experience with cage dive operations? 

DAWSON: They are more likely to, than just a random vessel. Yeah, I believe so. 

CRAWFORD: Have you seen, or heard of anybody who has seen, White Pointers following boats of any kind? 

DAWSON: There's possibly the odd little thing I’ve heard of boats slowly cleaning fish on their way in.

CRAWFORD: Codpotters? 

DAWSON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What might you have heard?

DAWSON: That they were cleaning ... a lot of boats used to go into Deadman’s Bay, cleaning on the way there, and then finish up in the Bay. And these Sharks turn up.

CRAWFORD: Right. Getting back to your young and foolish days, you and your Brother picked Deadman’s Bay for a good reason. 

DAWSON: We did, yep. 

CRAWFORD: You knew that location, because it was a commercial fishery cleaning station. It attracted White Pointers on a fairly regular basis?

DAWSON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: This idea of the White Pointers following Codpotters steaming along while they're cleaning their catch - do you ever remember people saying anything about that?

DAWSON: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s leave that, and move on to the final part of the question sequence. Do you think that these White Pointers associate the smell of food with the presence of Humans in the water? 

DAWSON: I believe they do, to a certain extent. Yeah, for sure. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think it happens to the extent that if they saw a Human in the water someplace else, that they would be more likely to investigate that Human looking for food? 

DAWSON: I would say so, for sure. And I think it’s been proven in other parts of the world. 

CRAWFORD: Where does that evidence come from? 

DAWSON: I've seen documentaries where they've fed different species of Sharks with a berley case on the hip. And then someone been diving in a different area, and the Shark would circle. That’s where it would go for an attack - take a bite. That’s indirect, but I believe they would investigate, looking for food “Here’s a person? Is there food here? We’ll have a look.” 

Copyright © 2021 Tim Dawson and Steve Crawford