Stuart MacDonald

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Stuart, where and when were you born?

MACDONALD: Dunedin, 1942. 

CRAWFORD: What was your first recollection of spending a significant time around New Zealand coastal waters? 

MACDONALD: I suppose I would have been around about five years old. We had shifted to Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: So, you didn’t spend much time around the water at Otago Peninsula?

MACDONALD: No. 

CRAWFORD: You were five years old when your family relocated to Stewart Island?

MACDONALD: Yes. Our family, our roots are on Stewart Island. We were related to the [Trails family??]. 

CRAWFORD: At that point in time, I think there were still three major communities on the island. Did your family move to Halfmoon Bay? 

MACDONALD: Yes. In 1945 the community was consistently made up of commercial fishermen families. There were 87 children at school in those days. Whereas today there’s 17. 

CRAWFORD: At the age of five, had your family moved there for the purpose of fishing? 

MACDONALD: Yes. And they moved there because that's where my father’s roots were. 

CRAWFORD: So, there was employment there for him in fishery?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did he skipper his own vessel, or was he crewing with somebody else?

MACDONALD: Crewed with somebody, then he had his own little boat. 

CRAWFORD: And what kind of fishery was he in? 

MACDONALD: Blue Cod. 

CRAWFORD: He would have been a day fisherman out of Halfmoon Bay? 

MACDONALD: Yes. When he was crewing, they used to go around the sounds. Here, there, and everywhere. Buy when he was day fishing himself, he was on a small boat. 

CRAWFORD: What size of boat did he have? 

MACDONALD: It was only about 32-feet. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Was that a one-man operation?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Growing up in Halfmoon Bay, you’re always near the water. During your earliest days what types of activities? Swimming, I’m presuming?

MACDONALD: Swimming, boats, canoes, dinghies. We used to make our own little boats. [chuckles] We were always connected with the water.

CRAWFORD: Was the majority of your time spent around the inner part of Halfmoon Bay?

MACDONALD: Yes, I would say.

CRAWFORD: What places would you have frequented the most in Halfmoon Bay? 

MACDONALD: Round the bay, [Mill Creek??], mainly around that area. 

CRAWFORD: Did you spend time at Bathing Beach or Butterfield? 

MACDONALD: Yes, we did.

CRAWFORD: Did you do any fishing as a kid? 

MACDONALD: Just on my Father’s boat. 

CRAWFORD: Describe that for me. What do you reckon was the youngest age you went out with him?

MACDONALD: Five. 

CRAWFORD: So, right from the beginning?

MACDONALD: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: As a young kid with your Father, did you also spend time in Horseshoe Bay or Paterson Inlet? 

MACDONALD: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What kinds of things were you doing there?

MACDONALD: You probably wouldn’t want to know. (chuckles) We did a lot of Possum trapping in those days, when we were young. And of course, we used to go from island to island in a dinghy with an outboard. 

CRAWFORD: You had an outboard even then?

MACDONALD: I'd probably be up around ten by then, I suppose. 

CRAWFORD: So, then the range expands with an outboard, obviously. Were you getting over to Ulva Island, were you allowed to go that far?

MACDONALD: No, we sort of ran from about Rabbit Island, the north coast of Paterson Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. At some point you were going to hit the age of being more actively involved - either with your Dad’s fishery, or in terms of your own business. Did you go out for full day fishing trips with your Dad?

MACDONALD: No, I didn’t.

CRAWFORD: At what point did you not really need adult supervision? When could you go off on your own, wherever you wished?

MACDONALD: Twelve. Things happen very young over there. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, they do. When that happened, did it increase your range for exploration? Like, did you get up further into Paterson Inlet or over into Big Glory?

MACDONALD: Yes. We’d get right up to Freshwater River. 

CRAWFORD: Did you start then getting into fishing around Paterson Inlet?

MACDONALD: Not then. 

CRAWFORD: What were the majority of your activities, on and around the water?

MACDONALD: Before the age of 12, I used to look after some people’s boats. People from the mainland. I would run their boats, so I was actually running trips up to Freshwater River at the age of 13. So, when I came home from school, and the holidays - things like that. 

CRAWFORD: Were you allowed out into the open water, outside of the bays?

MACDONALD: It wasn’t the fact that we weren’t allowed, it’s just the fact I never did it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When did you leave school, and start working fulltime? At what age, roughly?

MACDONALD: Fifteen. I was crewing on a boat. 

CRAWFORD: Crayfishing? Codding?

MACDONALD: Yes, both. 

CRAWFORD: A split Cray-Cod operation?

MACDONALD: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Who were you fishing with? Do you remember?

MACDONALD: Yes. His name is Bill [Helt??], in a boat called the Little Glory. 

CRAWFORD: What was the length of that vessel? 

MACDONALD: 39-feet.

CRAWFORD: Was he a day fisherman?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly, what region did you fish with him?

MACDONALD: We fished from the head of Halfmoon Bay, fished these islands here, and we fished out about as far as Port Adventure. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever do any fishing to the northwest?

MACDONALD: Not a lot, no.

CRAWFORD: It was mostly to the east? 

MACDONALD: Yes, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Was it seasonal for Cod and Cray?

MACDONALD: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What were the seasons?

MACDONALD: Season for Cod was roughly from about Christmastime through to August. Then from August through to Christmas was the Crayfishing season.

CRAWFORD: Did the Crayfishing happen in different waters or the same waters?

MACDONALD: Same waters, same area. 

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing you would have been going out pretty much every day the weather would allow. That would have you crewing with your skipper until you either moved to a different boat, or perhaps until you got your skipper's ticket. What happened next?

MACDONALD: I crewed on four different boats. I got my own boat about 1963. I didn’t own it. It was owned by a company.

CRAWFORD: Right, but you skippered it. 

MACDONALD: I skippered it. 

CRAWFORD: Prior to you taking over that vessel, when you worked on those other four boats - all day fishermen out of Halfmoon Bay as well?

MACDONALD: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did they have other regions that they fished, or it was pretty much the same region?

MACDONALD: Pretty much the same. Most of the smaller boats working out of Halfmoon Bay, just worked this area here. 

CRAWFORD: Along the northern coast, but including the Northern Titi Islands?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Were there particular islands that received more of the fishing effort, or was it all over the place? 

MACDONALD: It was all over the place, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What year did you get your skipper's ticket? 

MACDONALD: 1964. 

CRAWFORD: And did you get the ticket so you could skipper the company’s vessel? Was that a condition for the work? 

MACDONALD: Not really. The people that were handling the skipper's tickets arrived at the wharf one day, and they said "Do you want your skipper’s ticket?" And I said "Yes." So, they came onboard the boat, asked us half a dozen questions, and they said "How long have you been fishing?" and I said "Six years." They said "How long you been skippering your boat?" I said "Two, four on deck." They said "Here’s your skipper’s ticket." It was called a service coastal ticket. 

CRAWFORD: But once you had that ticket, you had the ability for the company to set your in charge of their vessel. Tell me about the company, and their vessel that you skippered for the them.

MACDONALD: Stan Jones. A boat called the Angela, 39-feet.

CRAWFORD: Compliment of two? Skipper and a crew? 

MACDONALD: No, I fished on my own. 

CRAWFORD: How long did you fish that vessel? 

MACDONALD: Sixteen months. 

CRAWFORD: Split Cray-Cod operation, again?

MACDONALD: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Same general waters that you had always fished? 

MACDONALD: No, I fished right down to Pegasus, fished out to the Traps. Been out to the South Traps and the North Traps. I went about as far as the South Cape. And I fished right round here, out of Mason’s, and Codfish, Bishop’s area, Smoky.

CRAWFORD: You were gone then, obviously, for multiple days. 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: What was the typical duration of your trip? 

MACDONALD: Three days. 

CRAWFORD: Did you had a freezer onboard, back then?

MACDONALD: No, no. We used to pack, because by the time we’re doing this, it's later - in the winter. Head and gut all the fish, pack it, store them in a locker on deck. We’d carry heaps of coal sacks with us, cover them up with Bull Kelp. Just stick the hose on them during the day. 

CRAWFORD: Right.

MACDONALD: And what it was like when I got home, I don’t know. [chuckles] I wouldn’t have eaten it. At that time, the fish was being exported to Australia. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Sixteen months with that first vessel. What was the next change in your fishing career?

MACDONALD: Went to a boat called the Marie, she had a freezer in it. She was 40-feet, and I had a crew. 

CRAWFORD: How many crew? 

MACDONALD: One. 

CRAWFORD: Did you fish in the same general regions that you already had been fishing with the Angela? 

MACDONALD: Yes. I went Crayfishing in this area here, for a starter. 

CRAWFORD: Where was that? East Cape? 

MACDONALD: No. Brakesea here, and Port Adventure here. Sort of that area. And then I went down to Pegasus and I worked down there for two Crayfish seasons. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was the next shift in your fishing history? 

MACDONALD: The next shift in my fishing history is I sunk that boat, up at a place called Christmas Village. (chuckles) 

CRAWFORD: What happened!

MACDONALD: You don’t want to know. It was ridiculous. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Ok, alright. 

MACDONALD: No, we weren’t on it when it happened. We were up here shooting Deer on top of Mount Anglem.

CRAWFORD: So, you were ashore hunting Deer, and the boat goes down? 

MACDONALD: The boat was tied up at Christmas Village and had a big stern line on shore. We came down the next morning, and the stern had parted. Just swung round, and set on the port. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Was there a new vessel after that? 

MACDONALD: Mr. Jones was not very impressed.

CRAWFORD: Mr. Jones was not pleased.

MACDONALD: So, then I fished with my Brother for a very short time. We never got on. And then we shifted to Riverton, late 1965. And I skippered a boat called the Star of the Sea. 

CRAWFORD: What length was that vessel? 

MACDONALD: 40-foot. It was a steel boat. She was built to go to the Chathams. It was built by [Corey Dereich??]. It was a well-known name round the area. I fished that for two years. 

CRAWFORD: Where did you fish it? 

MACDONALD: I went back down to Pegasus. Till Christmastime, I’d fish down there. I'd go round the island, right up here to Sand Hill Point.

CRAWFORD: So, Pegasus, then around the Western shore of Stewart Island.

MACDONALD: Straight up here.

CRAWFORD: Oh, straight up. You didn’t fish along the way?

MACDONALD: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Then up to ... where did you say? 

MACDONALD: Sand Hill Point. See?

CRAWFORD: At the western extremity of Te Waewae Bay.

MACDONALD: Yes. And we worked that area, towards Long Point. 

CRAWFORD: Crayfishing? 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: That’s more along the lines of two-to-three-week trip?

MACDONALD: Well, we were working out of Riverton, you see. So, it was quite handy just to hop back home. 

CRAWFORD: Oh, sorry. It wasn’t always the case that you would go down to Pegasus?

MACDONALD: No, no.

CRAWFORD: But if you came down to Pegasus it was often ...

MACDONALD: That was more like at the end of the year. We’d do the season down here. Basically finished at Christmastime. Then we would move to Sand Hill.

CRAWFORD: And Crayfished around Te Waewae Bay? 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. And when you were Crayfishing up there, you'd go back and forth from Riverton?

MACDONALD: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Was that day tripping? Or longer trips, or what? 

MACDONALD: No. Gone for like four or five days. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. And then over to Long Point, I think you said? 

MACDONALD: All the way over to Long Point, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. How long did that fishing pattern hold? 

MACDONALD: I did that, sort of on and off, for the next 20 years. In different boats. 

CRAWFORD: All roughly the same kind of configuration?

MACDONALD: Yeah. It sort of varied. Sometimes we went to Codfish. 

CRAWFORD: But it was pretty much the same pattern, in general? 

MACDONALD: Yes, in general. 

CRAWFORD: And the vessels? Even though they were different vessels, they were generally the same kind of vessels? 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: All two-man operations? Throughout that whole 20-year period?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That takes us up to roughly when? 

MACDONALD: 1967. I built my own boat. Was a boat called the Cordelia. She was an old boat she was built in 1887. And I rebuilt it with an old character called Sharky Wilson. It was 38-feet. She was built for sail. And I fished her for two years at Port Pegasus. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. 

MACDONALD: Then I sold it in 1969. I bought a boat called the Privateer. She was much more substantial boat. She was only 40-feet long, but she was only a few years old. And for about the next 12 years I fished Port Pegasus, and then we went to the Codfish area. Sometimes as far as Mason's. And sometimes we’d go back up to Sand Hill.

CRAWFORD: Depending on conditions? Depending on the year?

MACDONALD: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But pretty much still the same pattern of locations?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: But now with the Privateer. 

MACDONALD: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: And how long did you fish her?

MACDONALD: I fished her until 1978. 

CRAWFORD: And then what happened?

MACDONALD: I built another boat. A new boat this time, called the Trident. She was a 38-foot highspeed boat. That never went fast. (chuckles) She was built here in Invercargill. Built for speed, so we put a big motor on it, and it did go fast. But then the fuel got too much, so we put a smaller motor on it. But I fished the same areas. Again.

CRAWFORD: So, the vessels were changing, but the pattern of location and season ... throughout that 20-year period, was there still Codfishing going on in the background? Or were you pretty much a Crayfishermen exclusively?

MACDONALD: I was a Crayfishermen from about 1980 when I stopped Blue Cod fishing, and we just concentrated on the Crayfish. Because that’s where the money was. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Ok, so the Trident then. How long did you fish her?

MACDONALD: Till 1993. 

CRAWFORD: What happened then? 

MACDONALD: I retired. [laughs] But there is one other thing that happened in all those years - is the technology. On the early boats, we had like a drum winch, driven by a belt. The first boat had no echosounder, no radio, no nothing. Absolutely nothing. 

CRAWFORD: No radio? 

MACDONALD: No. If you were lucky, you would have a ZC1 which is one of the old army issue radios. And they invariably didn’t go. Basically, we only had the one shore station, which was our little radio. 

CRAWFORD: Right. 

MACDONALD: I think the biggest improvement in the fishing business was the hydraulic haul. Which came around about 1980. 

CRAWFORD: And that dramatically reduced the handling time on the pots?

MACDONALD: Yes. And it dramatically increased the number of pots we worked. We went from 40 to 80. 

CRAWFORD: And that dramatically increased the total harvest?

MACDONALD: Of course, it did. 

CRAWFORD: Did it increase the total harvest of the fleet to the point where it exceeded the level of the population sustaining? 

MACDONALD: It certainly did. 

CRAWFORD: So, there were big changes during your lifetime? 

MACDONALD: Huge changes. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. Post-retirement, did you still spend significant time on and around the water? 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: You had a new vessel? 

MACDONALD: Yes, I sold it in 1996. And I was without a boat for four years. I had 100 acres around Riverton, and I’d become a farmer. Dairy and cattle farmer. Which is interesting. Very non-profitable. One day I went up the road and bought a couple of Crabs in paid about 70 dollars for them. And I said "Bugger this. I’m going to buy my own boat." So I went back, and I bought a boat called the [Morgan Sidewitch??] which is a 38-foot Morgan. I still have it down here at the wharf. So, I’ve been recreational fishing, and Crayfish, we go Oystering, and we catch Blue Cod. And I’m still doing it. 

CRAWFORD: And in your post-retirement days, roughly what region do you frequent the most? 

MACDONALD: We fish out here in the Centre Island and Escape Reef area. And we go Oystering. 

CRAWFORD: In the Strait? 

MACDONALD: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When you're fishing, just potting? Any rod-and-reel recreational fishing? 

MACDONALD: Just when we got the grandkids aboard. We’ve got two pots. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, sir. Does that kind of summarize your experience around New Zealand coastal waters? 

MACDONALD: Near enough. I’ve been to a few other places, done a few other things. 

CRAWFORD: But that’s the bulk of your coastal experience though? 

MACDONALD: Yeah. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: If you were to evaluate the role of Māori culture and knowledge to your understanding of the see in general, not the just limited to Sharks, what level would it be?

MACDONALD: Low.

CRAWFORD: Similarly, with regards to the role of Science contributing to your knowledge of the sea - what level?

MACDONALD: Medium.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: When your family moved to Halfmoon Bay at the age of five, prior to this first observation, had you heard about White Pointers? 

MACDONALD: Yeah, we knew what they were. We never saw them.

CRAWFORD: What did the old-timers say about White Pointers? 

MACDONALD: Well, used to be all sorts of stories going round. Fishermen are great people for telling stories. Cut ‘em in half, and then [go see to the gin??], and you might get close to the truth. I heard a story that a boat was put on the beach many, many years ago - way back in the late '40s. And there were teeth stuck in the timber around the stem of the bow. Now whether that was true, I don’t know. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: So, as a younger person in Halfmoon Bay, you had heard about them. 

MACDONALD: Yeah, that's right.

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers ever say that areas around Stewart Island or Foveaux Strait were hotspots for White Pointers? That you would have high numbers at certain times?

MACDONALD: Not really.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you had been crewing, and definitely when you were skippering, did the old-timers take you aside, and say "You need to be careful of this, or mindful of that, when you’re out there?"

MACDONALD: No, no.

CRAWFORD: Ok so you were basically just learning on your own?

MACDONALD: They basically started young people skippering boats far too young. They shouldn’t have the boat. Especially after I lost it. I should never have had that boat. I was only 24 or something. Just young and stupid, as we were in those days - as you’ll find out shortly. 

CRAWFORD: Let's get back to your story about the White Pointer feeding on Cod frames in Waituna Bay - was that a fairly common fish cleaning station? 

MACDONALD: Yes, it was. 

CRAWFORD: When you were fishing off Halfmoon Bay, and along the eastern side of Stewart Island, did you have places around there that were common for cleaning Cod? 

MACDONALD: We used to normally go into the mouth of Horseshoe Bay, or we’d just clean wherever we were standing. 

CRAWFORD: On the way back to port? 

MACDONALD: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember boats particularly anchoring or drifting in Dead Man Bay? 

MACDONALD: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And cleaning in there?

MACDONALD: Deadman’s Bay - definitely there.

CRAWFORD: In a similar way to Waituna? It was a natural spot for its protection?

MACDONALD: If it was flying westerly, they would go in there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. So, it was known, within the fishery, that these animals were feeding off Cod frames that you were cleaning. 

MACDONALD: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever get any type of interaction with White Pointers in your Cray operations? 

MACDONALD: No. Never. 

CRAWFORD: It didn’t appear to you that there was any interest by the White Pointers with your Craypots? 

MACDONALD: No. 

CRAWFORD: Or when you were lifting them?

MACDONALD: No. 

CRAWFORD: Fundamentally a different kind of fishing operation. 

MACDONALD: Oh, it is. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: It’s not even really the Codpots per se, as they’re fishing. It’s not even necessarily them being lifted. It’s the cleaning of the Cod after they've been removed from the pots? 

MACDONALD: That’s right. It’s the food. 

CRAWFORD: Well, potentially the berley. The smell of food, potentially the food. 

MACDONALD: They’re feeding machines. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. In terms of seasonality, were there periods of time where you saw or heard about White Pointers? Or periods of time when they weren’t around? 

MACDONALD: Not during Crayfishing. Never saw anything.

CRAWFORD: Wat about your mates? Would you have heard stories, when other people commented? Remember, I’m looking for any patterns in space and time. 

MACDONALD: I know. But to be quite honest, no. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That's fine.

MACDONALD: Whales and things like that, yes. They come up to the boat, the small ones. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever see any Whale carcasses, in all the years you spent out there? 

MACDONALD: No, never. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about Whale carcasses?


MACDONALD: No. Oh, there may have been at one stage. It was way up shore, somebody spotted something.

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

MACDONALD: You've gotta remember too, we never went round looking for Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: No, no. I understand. This was all incidental. 

MACDONALD: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. A couple of follow up questions, in terms of Paterson Inlet. You were familiar with that inlet from a very young age. At a relatively early age, you had access to an outboard, and you could get around. Plus, you knew other people that travelled around there. In all of the time as a young fellow, did you ever hear of anybody seeing a White Pointer in Paterson Inlet? 

MACDONALD: No. Never. Never thought of it.

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers or your contemporaries ever talk about White Pointers around the northern Titi Islands? 

MACDONALD: No, never. Truthfully, no. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I’ve heard some things from different people about Seals around Stewart Island. Do you remember places along that shoreline where Seals were particularly abundant? 

MACDONALD: Yes. Entrance Island, down here. Along the passage here. Used to be on [Allen's??] Island, I’m sure there was a colony there. There was another colony down here, straight from Seal Point. Down here to [Johnson’s Bay??]. There’s another Seal colony living there. 

CRAWFORD: This was back in the '50s now? 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: '50s and '60s?

MACDONALD: '60s mostly. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. From Port Adventure, northwest - where do you remember large colonies of Seals? 

MACDONALD: Oh, I can’t actually remember. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Were there large colonies of Seals up in the northern Titi Islands? 

MACDONALD: Not as far as I know, no.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about the Ruggedies? Codfish? Mason’s Bay? 

MACDONALD: Can’t remember seeing them in any great numbers. You would see them, just the odd one or two. 

CRAWFORD: Anything that the old-timers would have said about the White Pointers taking Seals? 

MACDONALD: No, nothing. I think it was more fishermen that took the Seals. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of shooting them?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Same type of thing - the shooting culture? Or was there a perceived negative interaction between the Seals and the fishery?

MACDONALD: No. It was probably more getting a bit of a bait for the Crayfish pots.

CRAWFORD: Oh. 

MACDONALD: And it didn’t work out very well. I don’t think that there was a lot of that went on. Just the odd instance, that I was involved, anyway.

CRAWFORD: We'll come back to Stewart Island in a second, but for the period of time that you fished Riverton to Long Point, along the southern shore of the South Island. You made that trip over the course of many years, typically when were you were fishing that region?

MACDONALD: We would go out there from Christmas onwards, from Christmastime to April. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever see any White Pointers in that region? 

MACDONALD: No, never. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about White Pointers along the south shore, from Bluff over to Long Point?

MACDONALD: No. But that doesn't mean they weren’t there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. It’s not the case that these animals are just swimming out there, that you just have to go out to a particular place, and you’ll see one. It’s not the case if you went out back in the day to Paterson Inlet or the Titi Islands, that you would have seen a White Pointer. The animals could still have been there.

MACDONALD: Of course they could. 

CRAWFORD: But was there a sense amongst the fishing community, in particular the old-timers, that the White Pointers were ... not necessarily wary, but just not likely to be at the surface, doing things that could be seen?

MACDONALD: That’s right. We never saw them. You didn’t see them, unless you throw food over the side. 

CRAWFORD: And in that particular case, the cleaning of fish and the Cod frames that were left over from that - those led to the highest probability of you ever seeing a White Pointer?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: In all of your years, across this entire region, did you ever hear about White Pointers in that level 4 Intense category? Interacting with Humans in an aggressive manner, perhaps in an attack?

MACDONALD: I think there was one instance where somebody lost an arm - I'm not sure where it was. It may have been down in the Aucklands, I don’t know. I do remember something happening, but it was only one instance. 

CRAWFORD: It may have been the Campbell Island incident ...

MACDONALD: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: It's come up in the interviews quite a bit. People have said they were just shocked at how far south the White Pointers were. They had no idea they were that far south. 

MACDONALD: Well the White Pointer, has the ability to warm its innards, doesn't it? They can go right down to the very cold water, and also swim in the very warm water. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, they can. What do you know, if anything, about the migration of White Pointers? Did the old-timers ever talk about it? Or more recently, have you heard anything about how the White Pointers change where they are, over the course of the seasons? 

MACDONALD: No. I watched some Shark programs, and it’s amazing how many thousand miles that they do. 

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: What is your first recollection of seeing a White Pointer? 

MACDONALD: Sealers Bay on Codfish. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when would this have been? 

MACDONALD: That’d be 1964. 

CRAWFORD: You were in your 20s?

MACDONALD: 22. 

CRAWFORD: Were you skippering at that point? 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year was it? 

MACDONALD: It was in the wintertime. Probably late autumn, I think it was.

CRAWFORD: Tell me what happened. 

MACDONALD: We were anchored here on Sealers. We were heading and gutting the Cod. Catching a few Groper. We were fishing this area here. 

CRAWFORD: Off of Mason’s?

MACDONALD: Yes. Every night this fellow used to come and eat the Cod heads on the bottom. We used to watch him. Every boat carried a rifle. We hung a Groper head on a bit of rope over the side. He just come up off the bottom like this, and his head came out of the water. And I shot it. That’s what we did in those days.

CRAWFORD: After you shot the Shark, did it sink? 

MACDONALD: No. Because the Groper head was in his mouth, we managed to hold his head up, and we used a boat hook before he sunk to put a rope round his tail. 

CRAWFORD: What was the purpose of keeping this White Pointer?

MACDONALD: Because we sold the liver out of it. 

CRAWFORD: Oh. And at that point in time, there was a market for Shark liver in general? Or White Pointer liver in particular?

MACDONALD: That’s more that I can tell you. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

MACDONALD: But I do remember that we sold the liver. 

CRAWFORD: Back at Halfmoon Bay?

MACDONALD: Yes. So, we tethered him all the way back, we couldn’t get him aboard. We got him up on the wharf, he was thirteen-foot-six long. We took the teeth, we took the jawbone out. In those days, they dug the jaw bones under the garden, and let the flesh rot off of it. But we didn’t wait, we boiled the jaws. I think altogether there was about 120 teeth. The first five or six rows were right, because as they go back into the jawbone, they sort of lay like leaves of a book. The very last ones you could just break them off with your fingers. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. What did you do with the jaw or the teeth?

 MACDONALD: Gave most of the teeth away. My Wife’s got a broach made out of three of them. But that’s what we did.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember, when you got the White Pointer back to Halfmoon Bay ... I would presume that maybe somebody took a picture, and then maybe people were interested getting a tooth or two?

MACDONALD: Yes, they did that. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

MACDONALD: While we weren’t there. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Right. Did you cut open the stomach to see what the animal had been eating? 

MACDONALD: Oh, we probably did, but I can’t remember what was in it. There weren’t any Human legs or anything like that. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: No, no. But you don’t recall what it had been feeding on just prior.

MACDONALD: No.

CRAWFORD: Getting back to the idea of shooting White Pointers - back in the day. I’ve heard that several times. 

MACDONALD: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: People that are reading these transcripts, they have to realize it was a different day. 

MACDONALD: It was. 

CRAWFORD: And was there a general feeling, at least within the fishing community, that if you saw a White Pointer, you shot it? 

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: What was the motivation behind that?

MACDONALD: We shot everything. Well, not everything. Like we didn’t shoot Mollymawks or Albatrosses.  But Black-backed Gulls, Shags, you know, it was just ...

CRAWFORD: It was a shooting culture?

MACDONALD: It was. 

MACDONALD: Every boat had an old .303 onboard. 

CRAWFORD: Was there anything specific about shooting the White Pointers? Some people have talked about protecting Human life, or maybe protecting their catch, or something else? 

MACDONALD: I could tell you another story that’s about protecting the catch. 

CRAWFORD: Before we do, I’m just trying to get to the general motivation for shooting those White Pointers back then.

MACDONALD: I think it was just 'Shark,' you know? Kill it. They can be dangerous.

CRAWFORD: Yes. And I’ve heard other people, even just yesterday that back in the day - “a good Shark is a dead Shark.”

MACDONALD: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: That animal at Codfish, did you see it actually feeding on your Cod frames?

MACDONALD: Yes. We were in about four or five fathoms of water. It’s a very sandy bottom, the water’s very clear there. He just come off the bottom with his mouth open like that, and just grabbed it. It was amazing. 

CRAWFORD: So, it was scooping the Cod frames?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: You saw him scooping. Did the animal ever circle the boat, or show any interest like that? 

MACDONALD: No, no. Never came to the surface. Not till we put the Groper head over the side.

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] In this case, with the animal you saw off Codfish - the animal was responding directly to the Cod frames you were putting in the water? 

MACDONALD: Yes. It was. 

CRAWFORD: So, it was more than a Swim-By. It was interest, but not interest in you; interest in the Cod frames?

MACDONALD: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: It was only when you put the baited hook ... you said it was a Groper head you used? 

MACDONALD: Just a Groper head on a bit of rope. 

CRAWFORD: The purpose for that was to hook the White Pointer, and then bring it in close enough for you to shoot?

MACDONALD: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. That was an experience you personally had as a young man. Did you find out later, from other fishermen, that Codfish or the Northwest corner of the island generally, was ‘sharky’? 

MACDONALD: In [Leahy??] and Waituna, there could be six or seven boats in there, cleaning fish. The Sharks used to come in at night, to feed on what was being thrown over the side. I was actually sitting there one night, on the [Angelo??], which was another boat - she had an outboard rudder on it, and a tiller. I was sitting on the [afterdeck??] cleaning fish, and then the next minute, the tiller just come up and whack me - like this. The wheel turned [on the windlass??]. I looked over the stern, and there was a great commotion. It was a Great White had gone round the stern of the boat. 

CRAWFORD: And had bumped the rudder on the way by?

MACDONALD: Yeah, like he pushed the rudder over. 

CRAWFORD: Did you get the sense the animal was actually biting the rudder, or anything like that?

MACDONALD: No, I don’t think so. I think he was just there to feed. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. You never saw any scrape marks on the rudder, or anything like that?

MACDONALD: Nope. 

Copyright © 2019 Stuart MacDonald and Steve Crawford