Steve Hill

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Steve, I think you said you were born in Christchurch. What year was that? 

HILL: 1958.

CRAWFORD: What age do you first remember spending time around New Zealand coastal waters?

HILL: About four, really. Before I started school. 

CRAWFORD: So, that would have been with family, supervised visits to the beach? 

HILL: Yeah. In Christchurch we went to Sumner, New Brighton Beach, Akaroa Harbour which is on Banks Peninsula. Later on, when I was five, my parents started taking us away on holiday to Okains Bay, which is out the heads of Akaroa Harbour, and turn right. So, it's 55 miles from Christchurch, and that’s where I started getting into fishing.

CRAWFORD: At five years old, were you fishing with your mates, or fishing with your parents, or uncles and aunts? 

HILL: I was fishing with my parents. Started off with a little rod catching Herrings. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Did they have a boat, or was it shore fishing? 

HILL: Just shore fishing. 

CRAWFORD: Did your parents have experience fishing, or was it something new to the family? 

HILL: No, my Dad did a lot of fishing all his life. He was brought up on Banks Peninsula, across the way from Akaroa Harbour, a little place called Wainui. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of fish might you catch by shore fishing around there? 

HILL: We used to get Herrings and wee Guppies, sort of thing. And then we used to go fish off the wharf at Akaroa, and start catching bigger fish. When I was a little bit older, about seven or eight, I must have been, I always remember catching Red Cod. 

CRAWFORD: Red Cod? Right off the wharf? 

HILL: Yep, yep.

CRAWFORD: When you started, how often would you have gone fishing? Daily? Weekly? During the holidays? 

HILL: Probably about every three or four weeks. I always remember bringing a picnic lunch with Mom and Dad, and always making sure I had my fishing rod in there. And when we got the fish, at first I wasn’t fussed in eating them. We would cut them up to feed the cat, and the cat loved them. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever do any swimming - were you a big swimmer? 

HILL: Yes, yes. A lot of swimming. 

CRAWFORD: Any boating or anything like that? 

HILL: Oh, yes. I owned my own boat when I was 12 years of age. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of boat did you have? 

HILL: It was a little [Prang dinghy, with a little Seagull Attwood motor] 

CRAWFORD: So, at the age of 12 you were mobile, you had your own vessel. Where did you go with that boat?

HILL: We started going to Okains Bay. We spent 23 years going over there, every Christmas. We used to go during the year as well, and we’d hire baches [cottage] over there. And how I got my first dinghy was ... the newspapers years ago, and the bottles, the glass bottles you get 5 cents for them, cutting lawns. And I owned my own boat at 12. I paid for it all, including my Christmas money.

CRAWFORD: As a 12-year-old were you boating with or without parental supervision? 

HILL: I had parental supervision, yes.

CRAWFORD: At what age were you basically on your own, without direct supervision?

HILL: 14. 

CRAWFORD: Did you do any snorkelling or Pāua diving - those kinds of things? 

HILL: Yeah. I started Pāua diving when I was very young. I always remember it, I was eight, it was Christmas. My parents got me a snorkel set, and I wasn’t shown how to use a snorkel. I still remember it this day, and I said "Oh!" and I swallowed water, and to this day, I can still taste the water when I talk about it. But I got more and more confident.

CRAWFORD: Pāua diving - was that something you did from time to time? Or was it as dominant as fishing? 

HILL: Fishing was more so, depending on the time of year, and when we could go to get Pāuas and that. But I had done a lot of diving with Pāuas, yep.

CRAWFORD: What about scubadiving, did you ever do that? 

HILL: No, no.

CRAWFORD: And what about surf boarding? 

HILL: Yes, definitely. 

CRAWFORD: What age did you start boarding? 

HILL: 15. 

CRAWFORD: A little later than when you had the keys to the boat on your own. And roughly what age did you have access to a vehicle when you could start driving around? 

HILL: As soon as I was 15 years of age, I had my license.

CRAWFORD: So boarding, license, access to a car, and your boat. Did that expand the range with which you were spending time in New Zealand coastal waters? 

HILL: Yes, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Where else did you go, besides the places on Banks Peninsula?

HILL: Up to Kaikoura. We drove up to here, and to Mangamaunu which was a good place to go fishing. Just out of Kaikoura, along the coastline here. We used to fish in between there, probably 30 miles or so and back this way. There was great fishing along there, we used to go up there for the weekends. 

CRAWFORD: Fishing for what there? 

HILL: Oh, whatever fish we got, you know? We try always for Blue Cod and that. And School Shark or Rig, and Elephant Fish. 

CRAWFORD: Sometimes you specifically were going after School Shark? 

HILL: Yep. Sometimes we would go to [Berthings Flat], I don’t know if you’ve heard of that. On the way to Akaroa, just before you start climbing the hills on Banks Peninsula, and the flats, far as you can drive. It's all fine gravel, and it's very good for fishing there as well. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was from age 15 or so. The, next break point? Did you finish school and move off to a job or something?

HILL: Well, soon as I was 15 I got my license and I also left school. Started an apprenticeship, building with my father. 

CRAWFORD: As in building houses? 

HILL: Housing, yep. And that was 10,000 hours I had done that. We would always go out of town to different places, and everywhere we could go fishing, we went fishing. 

CRAWFORD: After work, on the weekends, holidays?

HILL: Yep, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Seems like fishing was your reason for being? 

HILL: Oh yes, yeah! 

CRAWFORD: So that’s from when you were about 15-16 years old. You started working full-time, that’s the new way of doing things. What was the next major thing that changed then? 

HILL: As I said, I worked for my Dad. Him and I were the best of mates. We always went away fishing together, on holidays, over to Okains Bay. I updated my boats, got bigger and bigger boats and that. 

CRAWFORD: Tell me about that. 

HILL: Well, I went from a little 8-foot pram dinghy, to a 12-foot boat, with a slightly bigger Attwood - about a 7-horse Attwood on it. Johnson, from there. I went on to a bigger boat, oh probably about 18-foot, then I got a 24-foot Haines Hunter, and ever since then I’ve had boats all my life.

CRAWFORD: When you were getting into your early 20s, what did you max out at - what was your big-boy boat? If the pram dinghy was your kid's boat, what did you end up as being your fishing boat as an adult? 

HILL: Near 20 years old, I had that 20-foot boat, and had a 150 hp Attwood on the back of it. That was also for water skiing, kind of cruising around. We’d go around to different bays around the Banks Peninsula, and always fishing. 

CRAWFORD: And that fishing was still pretty much in the same region? Banks Peninsula to Kaikoura? 

HILL: Yeah. We sort of buttoned off from that. Later on, when I was 20 or so, I met a lady - you know, things change in your life. But I still did a lot of fishing around Okains Bay, Banks Peninsula. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When was the next major change in your life around coastal environments?

HILL: I updated to another boat, slightly bigger, it was a 22 foot, with a 200 Attwood on it. More practical for fishing, and also setting nets and longlining. We would have got further out here to sea.

CRAWFORD: Roughly how far offshore? 

HILL: Sometimes we went out as far as 10 miles. We used to go out ... there’s a Groper haul, way out here we used to go. 

CRAWFORD: That’s the first time you’ve mentioned something other than rod-and-reel fishing. You said you had nets? What kind of nets did you have? 

HILL: Oh, just the monofilament for catching Butterfish and Moki and all of that. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of length of setnets would these be? 

HILL: Only about 40-feet long or something like that.  

CRAWFORD: Bottom set? 

HILL: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, there was angling, some setnets, something else? 

HILL: Longlines for Groper.

CRAWFORD: Describe those for me.

HILL: A longline is basically a 40-foot line, you have a weight on one end, and we had 12 hooks on it. 

CRAWFORD: Was this a horizontal or vertical line?

HILL: A line to fish horizontally along the bottom.

CRAWFORD: What were you going after with the longline? 

HILL: Rig, Gunnel and Skate, and School Shark. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, a combination of gears now, as you’re getting older on a bigger boat, and you’re getting further offshore?

HILL: We didn’t go out 10 miles very often. You had to be very careful of the weather change so much out there. There’d be four boats go out that far. It wouldn’t be one, it’d be four of us going about together.

CRAWFORD: Right. Keeping an eye on each other. 

HILL: Exactly. 

CRAWFORD: Did you fish that way based out of Christchurch through your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s?

HILL: When I was about 36, I moved to Queenstown and spent about ten years there. We had a holiday park there.

CRAWFORD: Did you make trips back to New Zealand coastal waters to go fishing, or were you pretty much a Queenstown guy? 

HILL: Pretty much a Queenstown guy. But I'd still come back to Christchurch for fishing again, because all my gear was still over here.

CRAWFORD: Would be maybe once or twice a year then? 

HILL: No, that would be the least. I would try to get over six times a year over here.

CRAWFORD: Weekends or weeks off - that type of thing? 

HILL: Yep, yep. 

CRAWFORD: What happened next?

HILL: I came down here when I was 47, 

CRAWFORD: Here, as in Porpoise Bay, Curio Bay? 

HILL: Yeah, and I've been here for 10 years. 

CRAWFORD: When you started fishing here, did you bring your boat down from Banks Peninsula, or were you fishing in some other way? 

HILL: Well, I sold my boat in Christchurch. Had no boat for the first time all my life. Then I bought another boat in Queenstown, which I brought down here. That’s a 24-foot aluminium, very similar to a Stabicraft. 175 Mercury. it’s a hard top. 

CRAWFORD: Is that the boat that you fished from here for pretty much for the past 10 years?

HILL: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: So, you moved to Curio Bay, and what I understand is that 'Curio Bay' is actually a specific bay at the head. But that name is used for the entire region, including Porpoise Bay?

HILL: Yes, yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you started fishing here, was it just basically the same kind of fishing gear and tactics as when you were going out fishing Banks Peninsula? Or is it a different place that has to be fished differently? 

HILL: Very similar. One thing I did find very strange down here was the way they catch Blue Cod - using pots, very similar to Craypots and that. No one ever used pots up in Christchurch, but you come down here and it's common.

CRAWFORD: Do you need a licence to fish Codpots? 

HILL: No. No, you don’t. 

CRAWFORD: So, it’s just another fishing gear. It could be anything. But nobody recreationally fishes with Codpots up at Banks Peninsula. There are commercial Codpotters all the way up, but no recreational Codpotters there. But down here, the recreational guys use Codpots as well?

HILL: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Do you also line fish for the Cod down here? 

HILL: Not Blue Cod, no. The only line fishing we do down here, because its more plentiful - we line fish for Groper or School Shark, or the local Skate. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Where do you dock your boat? 

HILL: Oh, just back in Waikawa.

CRAWFORD: When you go out for a day’s fishing, roughly what section of the coastline do you fish? 

HILL: First I’m in down this way, Slope Point. Or this way here, and this way first I’m up to Tautuku Peninsula. That’s the area.

CRAWFORD: What kind of depth of water, when you fish? Close to shore? Further offshore?

HILL: Fishing at about 150-180 feet. It just depends if we want to get Groper. If not, we’re just offshore about half a mile, catching Blue Cod. Or right in close, targeting Trumpeter. Depends what we’re after. 

CRAWFORD: When you’re fishing at depth, you’re using downriggers?

HILL: It's just a sinker, a heavy sinker with 2 hooks on it. We’re catching Cod, and that’s how we fish, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When I say downriggers ...

HILL: What do you mean? 

CRAWFORD: in Canada, when they’re doing salmon fishing in the big lakes, they have these heavy-duty arms, with heavy-duty lines with a cannonball - a heavy weight, maybe 5 pounds. You lower the weight down on the heavy line, and it takes your angling line down with it on a clip, so that you can get a very precise depth for your tackle that breaks free when you get a strike.

HILL: Oh, is that right? No, nothing like that.

CRAWFORD: So, you just have a line with some tackle and weight?

HILL:  Just basic, yes. 

CRAWFORD: And when you use tackle, do you use artificial lures, or do you use baited hooks, or what? 

HILL: We use baited hooks and that. This time of year, it's time to get salmon from mid-November to about end of February. We just use lures - or you can catch salmon on bait as well.

CRAWFORD: Lures meaning spoons? 

HILL: Yep, yep. That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: When you use bait, what kind? 

HILL: Just ordinary Blue Cod.

CRAWFORD: And the salmon, are they stocked or wild-reproducing? 

HILL: Some have been in a cage, because you can tell their fin at the back has been rounded off. Because it's been in a cage, but knocked around. And others are just wild run. 

CRAWFORD: So, there’s no hatchery that’s pumping out these animals on a regular basis?

HILL: Yeah, raised down on Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: A hatchery? 

HILL: Yeah, they have the Stewart Island salmon.

CRAWFORD: Well, they do have a salmon farm in Big Glory Bay. 

HILL: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: Technically, a hatchery that supports that cage operation, but that’s aquaculture. You're saying that those animals that have been in a pen, you figure your catch her in the Catlins is coming from that operation? 

HILL: Well, yeah, that’s the nearest place. Otherwise, I’m not sure too sure - it's way up in Dunedin, that’s where the next one is. That’s all that I know of. 

CRAWFORD: Dunedin definitely has a hatchery in Sawyers Bay - that's right where I'm renting.

HILL: But you know, we’re getting some really good salmon out here. The biggest salmon that has been caught off the rocks out here is 22 pounds, and the others are just 14. 

CRAWFORD: When was that roughly? 

HILL: That was only two years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Is the salmon fishing around here something that goes way back in time?  Or relatively new? 

HILL: I don’t know, I can’t say.

CRAWFORD: But salmon has been a big deal here, ever since you’ve moved here 10 years ago?

HILL: Yeah, it started for me with people that I knew about six years ago. They may have been doing it before that, but that’s what I know.

CRAWFORD: Ok. A variety of targeted species, a couple of different kinds of gears. Do you do any longlining down here? 

HILL: Yeah, we do. 

CRAWFORD: And a little bit of setnetting still as well? 

HILL: No, no nets. No, there’s a total net ban on. 

CRAWFORD: Anything else that would be particular to this region, that would have been different from how you would have been fishing at Banks Peninsula? 

HILL: No. Everything else is pretty much the same

CRAWFORD: In general, throughout the course of a year here, how much time would you spend on the water fishing? Once a week? More?

HILL: No. I’d have to say at this stage, due to work commitments, it's been probably once every three months recently. Beforehand I was out every month. But things have changed the last couple of years, because of our workload.

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: To what extent has Māori culture and knowledge affected your understanding of New Zealand marine ecosystems?

HILL: Well, it's had nothing. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of Science, how much has that culture and knowledge affected your understanding of these coastal ecosystems?

HILL: I’d put it on Very High. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You gave me an example, in terms of your interactions with DOC [Department of Conservation], and data collection about the Sea Lions and the Penguins. What other types of things have you done that bring in Science into your understanding. 

HILL: Yeah. Working with DOC down here, I understand a lot through Nicola Vallance down here. She's changed her name now to Toki, married. What she has taught me, and understand she used to work with DOC, she just started back with DOC now as an ambassador. 

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: What’s the first age that you recall either hearing about White Pointers or seeing a White Pointer? 

HILL: It would be on tv. I’ve never seen one myself.

CRAWFORD: Seen on tv as a kid? 

HILL: Probably between the age of 12 and 15. 

CRAWFORD: So, when you were actively pursuing fishing as a big hobby - at some point in there you would have seen White Pointers on a tv program?

HILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember as a kid, fishing around Banks Peninsula and in the region up around Kaikoura, do you ever remember the old-timers talking about White Pointers? 

HILL: No. 

CRAWFORD: When your family finally said yes, you’re able to run the boat on your own - there was never any Shark warning, or any kind of caution about places, nothing like that? 

HILL: No. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember in those early days, any type of Shark-Human interactions - not necessarily attacks - but did you ever hear of any type of Shark interactions at the beach or people out in boats or anything like that? 

HILL: Well, the only thing we heard of was the Sevengillers, and we would sometimes catch those in our nets. 

CRAWFORD: So Sevengillers were definitely there, and they would occasionally get wrapped up in your gear?

HILL: And now and then when we were fishing, you’d see them going round the boat and that. But not very often.

CRAWFORD: The Sevengillers? 

HILL: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: When you were out there, and you saw a Sevengiller in the wild, how did you know that it was a Sevengiller? 

HILL: Just by what we’ve been told, the look of them. We used to catch them sometimes. It's got a very long tail, its top teeth are like needles, its bottom teeth are serrated like a leaf and that, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever have any situation that you can recall, when these Sevengillers would be paying particular attention to boats, or following fish that you had on a line as you were reeling them in? Did you ever have any situations like that? 

HILL: No, no, no. 

CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember anything from those days about Sharks at beaches, or people having to come in from swimming because Sharks had been seen? Anything like that?

HILL: No, no, nothing. Only thing I hear now, is surfers come into the shop, and they say out here in Porpoise Bay, that they get bumped. Nick [Smart] may have mentioned something in his interview, every now and then they’d get a bump and that, you know?

CRAWFORD: Those people, that may be their first encounter with a Shark of any kind. Do they know what kind of Shark it was that was bumping them? 

HILL: No, most people you talk to have been surfing all their lives. These are not just your everyday person - these are people doing this all their lives.

CRAWFORD: These seasoned boarders, do they know what kind of Shark it is that’s been bumping them? Do they say anything about that? 

HILL: No. I’ve asked them, and some said it could have been a Sevengiller. Most, they don’t really say.

CRAWFORD: When you moved here 10 years ago, and you started getting your boat out, did the locals or old-timers give you a heads-up about things to watch out for here? 

HILL: Well, when I come down here, they told me out in the boat, once again, Stuart Harvey, I went out with him, he showed me the way to get out of the bay safely. 

CRAWFORD: is there a bar that you have to be careful with?

HILL: No, not really a bar. A set of rocks, and the basic channel - but to watch these rocks, you don’t get too far over, and blow the bottom of your boat out. 

CRAWFORD: Stuart took you out and showed you the lay of bay?

HILL: Everything. 

CRAWFORD: Did you hear about the Dolphins, or did you know about the Dolphins already? 

HILL: Oh, I knew about the Dolphins, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts in the bay are you likely to see the Dolphins? All over the place? 

HILL: Yeah, well all over the place. Basically out front here, and round the front of the fossil forest [Curio Bay]. Not so much on the far side over there. There had been some in the mouth of the river, I’ve seen them twice that I’ve been there. 

CRAWFORD: And every time you go out fishing, you’re in and out of the river. You move up the estuary, because that’s where you dock your boat. When you come out, do you ever fish Porpoise Bay itself?

HILL: No, we never fish out here. Now we do troll about 300 yards for the salmon on out there that’s breaking.

CRAWFORD: But most of the time, if you’re fishing, you’re out of the bay - you’ll go up the coast, or down the coast.

HILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What other types of sea life would you have heard about, when you were getting your orientation? 

HILL: Just about the places to go for Blue Cod, where’d to go and get Groper, where to fish for Moki.

CRAWFORD: When you told me the Seals vanished here in Porpoise Bay after the four Shark attacks you saw, when was that, roughly? 

HILL: Oh, five years ago. And then we had a bad run of Sea Lions around here. 

CRAWFORD: When you say a 'bad run,' what do you mean? 

HILL: We had a lot of Sea Lions out here.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, how many? 

HILL: Well, could be up to about 12 or 14. 

CRAWFORD: Really? Including beachmasters, the big males? 

HILL: Yes, yes. There’s still a big male around here at the moment, around on the far side over here. They were coming up the walk way, they were coming into the park where people were tenting, they were squashing tents down, they were coming into the shop! It was on TV! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: These are very big animals! 

HILL: These are Sea Lions we’re talking about now, not Seals.

CRAWFORD: I know! These are Hooker’s Sea Lions! They’re massive! And you’ve got to be careful with them at the best of times. Why were they coming up to the park? 

HILL: DOC was looking at putting up a fence around the whole perimeter of the camping ground, for the Sea Lions coming into the park. They were coming in and lying on people’s tents!

CRAWFORD: Why? 

HILL: I don’t know. This is what they don’t know! 

CRAWFORD: Was it just that one year that it happened? 

HILL: No, no. It was the next probably two and a half years after that. It was one of the big attractions down here, everybody heard about the Sea Lions.

CRAWFORD: More recently, in the past couple of years, have you had Sea Lions right on the beach here again?

HILL: No, no. The last two or three years, there’s been a huge decline, I’ve hardly seen any. Just gone - all of a sudden, they were there, and then they’re gone. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of explanation could there be for that? 

HILL: Well, like I was starting to say earlier on, you see a lot of things. The birds have changed out here over the last three or four years. For the last three years particularly, we used to get a lot of White Terns out here. We used to get the Gannets diving out here now and then, and the [Muttonbirds] used to come in here in big waves and that. And we used to get the Shags out here, and a lot more Seagulls. We hardly get them at all now. And they should be here. 

CRAWFORD: Relative to the number of birds that you were getting before, what percentage are you getting now? Like 50%? 

HILL: Oh, only about 10%, 

CRAWFORD: Really? That much of a decline? 

HILL: No, no. It's really gone down! I have a radio in the shop. I talk with the boats, they let me know what’s going on. 

CRAWFORD: Boats? - recreational or commercial? 

HILL: Both. In case something breaks down, I’m on call for them. I talk to the Pāua divers and people in general, basically from Slope Point on that way. I don’t know what’s going on, it seems really strange. 

CRAWFORD: When you talk to the Pāua divers along this stretch from Waipapa Point up to Kaka Point, but especially this section of the Catlins, have any of the Pāua divers had any kind of interactions with White Pointers?

HILL: No, no. I haven’t heard any. 

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCE

CRAWFORD: What about Seals here at Porpoise Bay, did the old-timers say anything about Seals or Sea Lions when you first got here? 

HILL: No, they never really mentioned. 

CRAWFORD: Did you have Seals or Sea Lions up at Banks Peninsula?

HILL: Yes, we did. More so Seals. 

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts were the hotspots for the Seals up north? 

HILL: They were just out at the heads of the bays, basically. They weren’t really in close, never hardly saw any Seals at all on the beach, or Sea Lions. There’s mainly more Seals up that way. 

CRAWFORD: And down here, relatively speaking, more or fewer Seals? 

HILL: There’s still a few Seals around here. But we’ve had a big decline in Sea Lions. They have been down for the last three years. A lot of things have changed out here in the last three to four years. 

CRAWFORD: Do you have ideas about why those changes would be happening? 

HILL: Well, I’ve got my opinions. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, please.

HILL: We’re down here every day of the year. You see what’s happened, like, when we arrived down here, when you look out the shop window on the right, there’s a reef out there. There were eight Seals out there, when we arrived here 10 years ago. I have seen four attacks out there on the Seals ...

CRAWFORD: 'Attacks' meaning what? 

HILL: Sharks. But I don’t know what sort of Sharks. We couldn’t really see them properly. 

CRAWFORD: Are these Shark attacks for sure? 

HILL: I would have to say yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see fins? 

HILL: Well, we saw fins, but we couldn’t really determine what sort of Shark they were. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Very likely a Shark, but the type is not necessarily known. And you have seen these attacks, not from a boat, but from the shop on the park beach? 

HILL: Yeah, from the shop. Had binoculars on them.

CRAWFORD: Roughly what distance? Two hundred metres, something like that? 

HILL: Yeah. And the next day we’ve seen parts, big chunks of the Seal, what’s left of it, washed up on the beach. I had notified DOC. They were down, and we just buried them, what was left. 

CRAWFORD: When you came here, had anybody mentioned to you, anything about Seals being attacked by Sharks here?

HILL: No, nothing. 

CRAWFORD: When was the first attack that you recall?

HILL: Probably about after two years being here. 

CRAWFORD: So, about eight years ago? 

HILL: Yes, that’s right. 

CRAWFORD: That makes it 2007. You were in your shop, looking out ... What made you think that it was an attack on a Seal in the first place? 

HILL: Well, I saw the water - it was very calm. And I saw this splashing out from the rocks. I thought it was a diver at first, a Pāua diver with his flippers. 

CRAWFORD: Do people dive for Pāua here? 

HILL: Oh, yes. But then I saw this, something in the air, and a fin of a Shark, and then later all this blood, blood red in the water. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you didn’t actually see a Seal taken itself. You saw the commotion. You saw the indication of a Shark fin for sure, and you saw blood. And then the next day, you saw bits and pieces of a Seal? What kinds of bits and pieces do you remember? 

HILL: There was the tail, at the end. Bottom section of the Seal. And that was all that was washed up that day. At other times, we’ve seen bigger chunks of Seal and that. 

CRAWFORD: Heads, flippers? 

HILL: No, I haven’t come across a head or flippers. I just rang the DOC. Anything like that we report to DOC. 

CRAWFORD: When you ring DOC, who do you call? 

HILL: I just call the office in Invercargill. If we see Yellow-Eyed Penguins on the beach, dead but still in good condition, we freeze them, and DOC takes them away to go to the university. 

CRAWFORD: The very first time when this happened, did you call up DOC when you saw the attack? Or the next day when you saw the remains?

HILL: Oh, the next day when I saw the remains, yes. Told them what happened the day before. 

CRAWFORD: Did DOC send somebody?

HILL: They said "Oh yeah, that."

CRAWFORD: Was there any type of ... did they do any analysis on the teeth marks, or anything like that? 

HILL: No, no. They just said "That’s part of nature." 

CRAWFORD: It is. But it's a very important part of nature. 

CRAWFORD: Did they say anything about it being a Shark attack? 

HILL: Yeah. They said, "Oh yes, definitely a Shark attack here."

CRAWFORD: "Definitely a Shark attack." On a Seal. Within 200 metres of a holiday park beach!

HILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you moved here ten years ago, you I think you said there were Seals around at that time? 

HILL: Eight Seals, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: There were eight Seals that tended to hang out at the rocky point, just up from this holiday park beach?

HILL: Yes. And then, in two month's time we saw two attacks, and then after that ...

CRAWFORD: Whoah, whoah. The first attack - what time of year was that?

HILL: That was in about October. That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: That means it was spring here, not summer time. What time of day was it, roughly? 

HILL: It was in the morning, at 10 o’clock. Because we were sitting down there, and I was having a cup of tea with somebody. 

CRAWFORD: What else do you remember? You said the water was calm?

HILL: It was calm, it was clear, yes. 

CRAWFORD: What other types of things do you remember from this first attack. Do you recall if there was more than just the one Seal on the reef? What did the other Seals do? 

HILL: I didn’t take any notice. I can’t remember. We were focussed on what was happening, you know?

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any birds being around, circling around? 

HILL: No, no. It was just a bit of a shock, you know. Your mind is focussed on that one point. You don’t sort of think, you know? I can’t say whether there were birds afterwards. I just remember the color of the water, the red. And then we thought "Well gee, it's not a Human is it?" You know? 

CRAWFORD: Right! 

HILL: [laughs] You know!? 

CRAWFORD: What did you do to make sure it wasn’t a Human? 

HILL: We sort of just watched it. All this thrashing around, and we see the tail of the Shark. And then the next day after we saw the Seal remains, we put a sign up advising people not to go down on the beach around the rocks, due to Sharks. We done it because it come as a big surprise. 

CRAWFORD: So, somebody from DOC came down and said that’s nature and that’s the way it is, and you buried the Seal parts on the beach or where? 

HILL: Yeah, on the beach. 

CRAWFORD: That was standard policy?

HILL: Yeah, it's like anything. If we see a dead Blue Penguin. like the other day, we just bury them. They are not interested in them. But the Yellow-Eyed Penguins, any Yellow-Eyed we get, they are to be frozen straight away when we get them. DOC comes and pick them up, and takes them away and does an autopsy on them.

CRAWFORD: What’s the focus on Yellow-Eyed Penguins, as opposed to the Blue Penguins? 

HILL: Well, because the population down here is dropping down.

CRAWFORD: Of the Yellow-Eyed, but not the Blue? 

HILL: Yeah. There’s still a lot of wee Blues here. 

CRAWFORD: When you found dead Penguins, have you ever found parts of Penguins? 

HILL: No, never, ever. 

CRAWFORD: They're pretty small anyways. Depending on the size of the Shark, they may not be able to get a whole Seal down, and you would expect to get parts of the Seal after an attack. But a Penguin, if they were for whatever reason taking Penguins, the chances of you finding a part of a Penguin would be pretty low. And who would know, could be boat propeller, or something else. 

HILL: No. Never, ever seen any parts of Penguins. Even Seagulls, we bury Seagulls down the beach. Different cause we’re always checking the beach for wildlife. That’s just me - always done it, you know. And never ever seen parts of Seagulls or Penguins. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Tell me about the second Shark attack on a Seal. 

HILL: That happened about eight weeks later. 

CRAWFORD: I think the first attack you said was in October, so this was going to be in or around November? That’s late spring time here?

HILL: Yes. Yeah, that’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Time of day, roughly? 

HILL: Was about 4 o’clock. Between 4 and 5. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember the conditions? 

HILL: Yeah. Once again, it was calm, reasonably calm. A slight little chop on, but conditions were very good. We had a tour bus group down here at the time. They were here, but not in the water. Dolphins were along from the shop about 300 yards. That’s what they were watching. Once again, roughly in the same place on that point out there. And all this commotion again. And someone said "Oh look, what’s happening out there?" I said, "Oh, it looks like another Shark attack." And then they all said "Shark Attack!" And this time we saw the Seal, more so this time.

CRAWFORD: What was the Seal doing? 

HILL: It was just trying to move, it was just like this [flapping], you know? 

CRAWFORD: Was it on the water, right next to the rocks ...

HILL: No, it was about 30 feet out from the rocks. And it was just shaking like this, in the Shark's mouth.

CRAWFORD: You saw it in the Shark's mouth? 

HILL: Yeah, in the Shark's mouth. This one was different. Like it grabbed it in the middle. 

CRAWFORD: This was roughly in the same location. So about 200 metres?

HILL: Yes, yes. Exactly. And we only saw it a couple of times, maybe three times. But the people from the bus couldn’t believe it. Everyone stopped and looked. 

CRAWFORD: Well, you don’t see that every day. 

HILL: No. It's very strange. And then, later on, when we had that Shark attack on the surfer. It's something else. 

CRAWFORD: I knew about the attack on the surfer here. But I hadn’t heard anything about these Shark attacks on the Seals, prior to the attack on the surfer. You said originally there were about eight Seals here on the point? 

HILL: Yeah, that’s right. 

CRAWFORD: And you got to know these animals over time?

HILL: You do. It's just like every day ...

CRAWFORD: And there might be a couple new ones, or they might bugger off for a bit and then come back for a bit. But when you’re talking about this place, that point in particular, it was typically about eight Seals out there. And within two months, two of them were taken, in October and November of your second year here. Eight years ago, in 2007. 

HILL: That’s right. Yeah, 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any features about the Shark during the second attack?

HILL: We didn’t have binoculars that time. That’s why I said to you, I don’t know for sure it was a Shark, you know? You could see the head sort of. Because a Seal is quite long. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember seeing the nose of the Shark, anything like that?

HILL: No, I don’t. No, no. It was towards us, so I can remember seeing the Seal underneath, and he sort of went up and come down, and then up and come down again. And then later on, all the blood again, and everything.

CRAWFORD: Where there have been Shark attacks on Seals, but people have not actually seen the Shark closely, there are only a limited number of different Sharks around here that can and will take a Seal. 

HILL: See, I don’t know what sort of Sharks would take a Seal.

CRAWFORD: And it could have been that when the Seals went away, maybe they swam away from here, or it could be that perhaps one or more Sharks did get them all - because if you can take one Seal and there’s only eight there, over time ... 

HILL: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Did you find any remnants from that second Seal? 

HILL: Yeah. We had one flipper. 

CRAWFORD: Did you phone DOC as soon as it happened? 

HILL: Oh yes, always do. 

CRAWFORD: You phoned DOC at Invercargill. Did they send somebody down? 

HILL: No, I don’t think so. Once again, I said, "Look, there’s been another Shark attack." Because we always let them know, because our relationship with DOC is very good. Anything that happens with the wildlife, Penguins, we ring them up, 

CRAWFORD: Ok. How many more times did you see Shark attacks on Seals? 

HILL: Two. And they were about a year later.

CRAWFORD: So, 2008. What time of year? 

HILL: That was once again October, November. Yeah, because the shop was opened longer hours. We’re only open certain hours in the winter time, basically from 11 to 2 o’clock in the winter time, then we open longer hours in the spring down at the shop. That’s where I saw it, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, it must have been mid-day then? Between 11 and 2?

HILL: It would have been after that, sort of in the afternoon. Because we open up longer from October, that’s how I know roughly.

CRAWFORD: Ok, I get it. But the same place, same point?

HILL: Yeah. Same point, but probably a little bit further out this time.

CRAWFORD: If there were originally eight Seals, two of which were taken the year before ... Do the Seals that were there, do they bugger off for a while after an attack?

HILL: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. 

CRAWFORD: So, the day after the first attack, the Seals were gone? 

HILL: Yeah. Because I remember somebody saying jokingly "Ah, he probably got them all!"

CRAWFORD: And you wondered if maybe that actually happened? 

HILL: I said "Oh. Well, that’s possible." And they come back there the next day again. 

CRAWFORD: They came back the next day, the six or seven of them? 

HILL: Yeah, it seemed so. DOC has been here, asked us to keep note how many Seals we see and Sea Lions. They were getting a lot of Sea Lions down here, and over the years they’ve tagged them and they’ve tracked them to get an idea of where they’re going.

CRAWFORD: So, DOC asks you to keep eyes open, for the Sea Lions. 

HILL: For what I see, yeah. Tags and that. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was the first year, there were eight Seals. Then two were taken, so there were six. Then the next year, do you figure there were still six Seals? 

HILL: Yeah. There were still six out. I remember, because we always keep track. 

CRAWFORD: Are these Seals resident year-round?

HILL: No. They go away, and they do come back again. 

CRAWFORD: When do they leave roughly? 

HILL: Look, I’d be guessing. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly. I want you to guess for me.  

HILL: In the winter time, they’re not quite there so much, because there’s no food around, you see?

CRAWFORD: Ok. And then maybe come back in around September or October? 

HILL: Yeah, yeah that’s right.

CRAWFORD: Then in the second year, you were about to tell me, was it the same time of year? 

HILL: Yeah, because our shop hours were open later. That’s how I know. 

CRAWFORD: And the third attack was a little bit further out you said. So maybe 300 metres away from the shop? 

HILL: Yes, yes, that’s right. And once again, I saw the water being stirred up and that. Didn’t see anything. And then red! Blood! But we didn’t see anything wash up. No, nor on the fourth time.

CRAWFORD: The fourth attack, that was that further out as well, or a little bit closer?

HILL: Oh, about the same as where the first lot were. 

CRAWFORD: So, about 200 metres? 

HILL: Yeah, but we didn’t see anything washed up. No, didn’t see nothing. 

CRAWFORD: What happened over the remaining six years to the present - with regards to Seals on this rocky point? 

HILL: After that, there was just a couple, but they just vanished, you know?

CRAWFORD: When did they vanish? 

HILL: Probably about another year after that. 

CRAWFORD: You’re in a prime location here at your shop. You can just look out the window and see the Seals?

HILL: That’s our natural instinct to look out there all the time. 

CRAWFORD: Has anybody else that you’re aware of, around this region, ever seen a Shark attack a Seal? 

HILL: No. Our situation is as I say, we’re going every day of the year, and we spend a lot of time down here when it’s busy. And you understand a lot what’s going on, how things have changed over the years down here. 

CRAWFORD:  And, there’s been no Seals out there at all ever since?

HILL: No. But after that, then the Sea Lions started to come around. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Tell me about your recollection of what happened to the surf boarder who was bitten by the Shark here a while ago. First of all, when was it?

HILL: That was in February, two years ago. It was 20 past 8 at night in February, and it was a calm, still night. No wind, we had all the Dolphins here.

CRAWFORD: Where were you? 

HILL: I was in the shop, serving. We had people, lovely night out here, all the Dolphins were out here in front of the shop, about 20 to 30 of them. People watching, had been swimming with them. And all of a sudden, a car comes racing down the beach, another car comes racing in front of the shop "Oh, someone’s been taken by a Shark!" At first, sort of hard to believe, so I said to Val "Alright, I’ll go down and have a look and see what’s going on." At the time, we had two DOC radios. I talk to DOC, I've got this radio in my shop now. I can talk to them in case they get in trouble and want a hand. We had two radios there, so I grabbed one of them, and I said to Val "I’ll keep you updated what’s happened." So, I went down there, and they probably just come out of the water, pulled him out, and here’s this big hole in his wetsuit. And we see what we can do, we partly cut some of the wet suit open, but you couldn’t, so just keep on the pressure point. Then a junior doctor come along, she couldn’t do much, just sort of bound it up and that. There was an A&E doctor there in the background, he just kept an eye on us. He felt, there’s nothing else we could do. We just talked to the patient, let him know a helicopter was coming, organized that, all the medical care. But the fella that seen the attack, the fella that Val and I noticed, he seemed in shock. From what I could gather, there was a surfer there, and a surfer here. There were two Sharks working together, went underneath his board ...

CRAWFORD: Two Sharks? Where did the second Shark come from? This is the first I’ve heard of two Sharks. Who saw that there were two Sharks? 

HILL: The Argentina fellow on the board. He said the victim was here on the board, two of the Sharks were underneath the board, one veered to the right, and the other one just kept on going like that. 

CRAWFORD: This is the first I’ve heard of two Sharks in this encounter. 

HILL: Yeah. That fella from Argentina. Has never been in the water since. 

CRAWFORD: He said both Sharks were directly under his board?

HILL: Yes, yeah. And he was the one that’s freaked out. 

CRAWFORD: And you heard it from him that there were two Sharks? 

HILL: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: Were they going quickly? 

HILL: I don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any other details? 

HILL: No. All I remember is the fella that had been attacked, you know, he was going through different stages of shock, understandable and that. And we were just talking to him to make sure of what was going on, But the other fella, the Argentina fella, he was just freaked out. He just couldn’t believe it. 

CRAWFORD: We have to be careful, because if somebody is in shock and he’s freaked out, we don’t really know what to make of what he’s telling you either. 

HILL: No. But that’s what he said to me, and the day after that as well. Because the police interviewed him as well, they come down. We closed the whole beach down, put signs up so no one could get in the water. And yet we had all the Dolphins out here at the time of the attack. People were swimming with them, you know?

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any reaction by the Dolphins? You said they were there when it happened. Approximately how far away from the attack were the Dolphins? 

HILL: Well, they were a fair way. When you look from the shop, you know, there’s rocks there. And in front of the shop you've got the rocks, and then you've got that little bay, and there’s that little point that goes out. They were just in there, in that little shore. It happened about roughly the third house from the very far end, way over here. So, it’s a wee distance. 

CRAWFORD: Maybe a kilometre?

HILL: Yeah, yeah. It's deceiving. But that day, they had been a bit of bait fish around as well. 

CRAWFORD: In Porpoise Bay? 

HILL: Yes. Because once again we see birds, and that’s a sign there’s fish around, and there’s bait fish around, and there had been a bit of activity that day. 

CRAWFORD: Was there anything you heard from other people, with regards to the nature of the attack itself - about what happened? 

HILL: No, that was basically it.

CRAWFORD: And that the Shark chomped down. 

HILL: Yeah, yeah. I think Nick’s [Smart] still got the board, I might be wrong. From what I can gather, what saved him, is it come in and when the Shark clamped down, his whole leg was in his mouth - but it’s the board that saved him from biting through. 

CRAWFORD: This attack had a huge effect on everything. You can’t have something like that - especially in a small community, without major effects. You said that the beach was shut down? 

HILL: Yeah, it had to be shut down for 24 hours. 

CRAWFORD: And you said the police did an investigation? 

HILL: Yeah, they did. They were out, straight away. 

CRAWFORD: And DOC too? Does DOC go out with the police in an investigation like that? 

HILL: I don’t know what they’ve done. They were notified straight away.

CRAWFORD: Since that time, have you heard about, or have you seen, any Sharks or Shark attacks on Seals, or anything since then? 

HILL: No, nothing. 

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: Any descriptions by other people in this region that you may have heard about, when it comes to Shark encounters?

HILL: I know people who have caught White Pointers out here - ones that have been tagged. 

CRAWFORD: Who around here has caught White Pointers? 

HILL: Brian Smith, who used to run a charter service fishing boat out here. He's gone to receivership; the boat is still back in Waikawa at the moment. 

CRAWFORD: He ran a recreational fishing charter?

HILL: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And you heard from him that he once caught a White Pointer ...

HILL: No, that was about two or three times, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When do you recall hearing from Brian about this? 

HILL: That would be just over a year ago? Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Where about did he catch these White Pointers? 

HILL: About half way between Haldane and Curio Bay. 

CRAWFORD: So, according to Brian, his recreational fishing charter operation caught multiple White Pointers, and some of them with tags on them. 

HILL: Yes, yeah. 100%. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s important, thank you. Do you remember anything else he told you about catching those White Pointers? 

HILL: No. He just said he let them go again. And I can’t recall if he took the number down or whatever, but he said they were tagged and that, and he had to work in with DOC, because of his permit to fish.

CRAWFORD: What do you mean ‘work in with’?

HILL: Like he had to also work in with the counting of the Dolphins out here, as well as the Penguins.

CRAWFORD: So, he had to have some type of normal reporting with DOC, and it’s quite likely that DOC ...

HILL: They'll have it on file. 

CRAWFORD: Well, I have a request in to DOC already for incidental catch information, in which case it may very well be that his reports are there. Where can I find Brian?

HILL: I don’t know. He's gone - maybe about a year ago.

CRAWFORD: Where is he based out of now, Invercargill? 

HILL: Oh, he’s on the run from financial issues. I don’t know any details.

CRAWFORD: Ok, that’s fine. We'll leave it at that. Any other descriptions by people in this region, when it comes to Shark encounters?

HILL: Yes. Waikawa harbour, in between the two wharfs around there. There’s been two dogs lost there to Sharks. A lady come into the shop and said, "Oh, I want to take my dog for a swim." "Oh," I said, "You can’t really put them out here because of the Dolphins." I said, "You should go back to Waikawa." So, she took one of the dogs back to Waikawa, and let it have a swim in the water between the wharfs, and a Shark come along and took the wee dog. 

CRAWFORD: When was this? 

HILL: Three years ago. Two dogs went missing in 6 months. 

CRAWFORD: Right at the wharf?

HILL: Yes, yep. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year? 

HILL: It would be about November

CRAWFORD: November again. And had anybody ever talked about losing dogs to Sharks in this region, as far as you knew? 

HILL: No, no, no. Because as you know, when a dog gets wet, it gets that very strong smell, you know? 

CRAWFORD: Did the woman see the Shark take her dog?

HILL: Yes, yes, definitely. Oh, she come back to me and was absolutely beside herself. Oh jeez. 

CRAWFORD: What did she say happened?

HILL: She come in - I couldn’t understand her at first. She was upset emotionally, and trying to tell me. Well she just went on about her dog, you know? Had been taken by a Shark. And I said, "Where?" and she says, "Back at the wharf where you told me to go." Well I sort of didn’t say to go to the wharf, I said to go to Waikawa, you know?

CRAWFORD: And what did she say happened? 

HILL: She said the dog was there, it was in probably about 3 or 4 feet of water, and the Shark just come along and chomp! - just took it. 

CRAWFORD: She's in shock for sure. Did you get a sense from her the size of description of the Shark? 

HILL: I said "How big was it?" She said, "It was a big Shark." And that’s all she said. 

CRAWFORD: Anybody, especially somebody who has just lost their family pet ...

HILL: Very emotional. And it happened twice! 

CRAWFORD: Tell me about the second time. How long after was the second dog taken? 

HILL: After probably about March. 

CRAWFORD: At the Waikawa wharf again?

HILL: Yeah. And this couple, they’ve always taken their dog down there, you know? Come out here for a drive. 

CRAWFORD: Have always? Like for years and years? 

HILL: Yeah. This old dog was probably about 21 years old. A little white poodle. 

CRAWFORD: What happened?

HILL: Shark come along, and just grabbed it. 

CRAWFORD: Did you talk to them as well?

HILL: Yeah, well once again, they’re upset. And she said it was just a big Shark. Brownish-black, she said. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, we may be dealing with different kinds of Sharks in different regions. But that doesn’t rule out a brownish-black Shark from having taken the Seals here at the point either. It's important for us to not jump to conclusions. White Pointers are doing things while other Sharks are doing things as well. 

HILL: Yeah, exactly. 

CRAWFORD: Has anybody to your knowledge, the old-timers, anybody else along this section of the coastline, ever talked about seeing White Pointers in these waters - that you’re aware of?

HILL: No.

Copyright © 2017 Steve Hill and Steve Crawford