Stefhan Brown

EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Where and when were you born, Stefhan?

BROWN: Born in Dunedin, 1972. 

CRAWFORD: When did you start spending significant amount of time on or around the ocean? At what age?

BROWN: 2 or 3. 

CRAWFORD: Were your earliest experiences based mostly out the Dunedin region?

BROWN: We had a little holiday home down at Cape Saunders. My family loved fishing - all the local fishing spots up and down the coast. 

CRAWFORD: During these early days, what were your typical on- or near-water activities? Swimming? Boating?

BROWN: Swimming all around the [Otago] Harbour. Normally, we'd go on the Southern side to pack up, and we’d swim over to Quarantine Island. Swimming and snorkeling, even at a very young age. Also in the estuary of Wickliffe Bay, which is an open estuary out to the sea. And tobogganing - so you tie the boat with water skis and spin around, even at Aramoana. And then down to Pounawea in the Catlins. Yeah, there and down at Invercargill and moving around all the time. 

CRAWFORD: Every breathing moment on or around the water?

BROWN: Yeah. We had a boat shed down there with kayaks. You’d be down there, paddle out to the sandbars, and gather cockles and all that kind of stuff, and put the Flounder nets out, and yep. 

CRAWFORD: At what age did you start spending time around the ocean, other than the young family days and fishing trips?

BROWN: At 8 I started surfing down at St. Clair. Well trying to surf. I just couldn’t figure it out for a couple of years. I got there in the end, and then from there I would ... because our house was at St. Clair, I would just walk out and surfboard at St. Clair or St. Kilda. Just that stretch of beach, because that's all I knew. My Mom wouldn’t let me range too far away. I had to stay where the surf clubs were. And still doing all the fishing all the other stuff too, through those years.

CRAWFORD: In the early days, what was the relative split between swimming, and let’s say kayaking and fishing? Was it kind of an even split, or was there one thing you did more?

BROWN: Mostly swimming, because I also swam up at Moana Pool. I was training for swimming. I’d swim distances all the time. My Mom almost drowned at Aramoana when she was younger, and she was determined that was never going to happen to me. So, as a little kid I can remember Duncan Laing, who was a swim coach here, with his big stick, smacking us to make us swim in the legs. Mom was determined, because she used to say "You are never going to die in the ocean."

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

BROWN: She tried to get me to the Surf Life Saving club at 14, but I didn’t see the surf club as being cool. I like surfing, and back then surfers and Surf Life Savers didn’t like each other. 

CRAWFORD: So you chose the dark side first ... 

BROWN: Yeah, there was the evil, pot-smoking, sort of surfing image there. And then there was the Surf Life Saving club.

CRAWFORD: The regimentation, the order, and the protocol, and the life saving?

BROWN: Yep. I wasn’t allowed to surf at Aramoana, because that’s where she almost drowned. And she saw that beach as a danger beach - but it’s a great surf beach. But she saw it as a danger, so when I finally had my car and could go places I said "One day I’m gonna go to Aramoana." And she screamed. She lost it.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So from 2 until 8, what was the split between swimming and kayaking, things like that?

BROWN: We’d only kayak on the weekends through summer. We’d go primarily down to the holiday bach down at Cape Saunders, and then you'd just stay till Sunday down there. You’re either pulling in a net trying to catch Flounder, or lifting up rocks. I can remember trying to grab the Crabs or whatever.

CRAWFORD: Then surfing close to home is the main focus from 8 until ... when you get the keys to the car?

BROWN: Yes. So 15 was when, back then, was the age you could get your license. 

CRAWFORD: And at age 15 you’re still doing all the boating and the fishing, and netting and everything? How much of your time would surfing take, in that period?

BROWN: At 3 o'clock, when school finished, I had to literally walk past the beach to get to my house. I would walk past and see if the surf was good, and when it was I'd go surfing - and maybe do my homework at night. Every day Monday to Friday. But the parents would still try and drag me to the crib, but I didn't like go there anymore, because I wanted to go surfing.

CRAWFORD: Surfing during that period definitely increased?

BROWN: Yes. Absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: What percent of your time was surfing?

BROWN: Maybe 80-90%. The swimming was still there, because I realized the swimming was important to the surfing. And I started to figure out that the fitness was important. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That takes us up to 15, and then what changes?

BROWN: The car. 

CRAWFORD: Right. The car adds flexibility and range?

BROWN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: How did you expand your range? I’m presuming the activities pretty much stayed the same, because I think you said you didn’t join Surf Life Saving until 18? 

BROWN: Correct. With the surfing, I’d come to the beach and be like "It looks ok, but not very good. There must be somewhere better." My very first sneaky little trip, I followed these guys with surf boards thinking "Where do they go?” Because it never occurred to me that there were these other beaches that you could surf. The pin never really dropped, because back then it was very guarded. Like knowing where was a big secret, you know? They didn’t want people to know. You’d follow them and think "Where are they going?" and then be "Holy shit!" There’s this beach, and the waves are clean, and it was just pumping, and you used to be just “Awh.” And then you’d go back the next day thinking that was amazing, and it was absolutely shit. I couldn’t think of any reason why that was, and I really wanted to learn why. 

CRAWFORD: You mean the tides, the winds, the currents?

BROWN: The wind would change, yeah. The tide was wrong. All that stuff. I started to realize that I had to learn about it, which is what shaped me at school. I started studying geography and wave dynamics and all the rest of that. I literally changed my classes at school, because I wanted to find out why I couldn't find a good bit of wave. That was my motive. I realized that I had to learn, because no one would tell you at the beach. You’d go up to some of the old guys, and they wouldn’t tell you shit. 

CRAWFORD: I think I understand the intensity deepening. In terms of geographical region, were you still pretty much based around the Otago Peninsula?

BROWN: No. By 16 or 17 we had got it pretty much dialed in. I was now going down to the Catlins, Purakaunui Bay, Long Point, down to Invercargill. Haldane up to Christchurch a lot. By 18 I’d already done my round the South Island trip. 

CRAWFORD: You had been around, sampling for new waves, because that was still in your exploratory phase?

BROWN: Yep. We just went. Because Google Earth, and all that wasn't around. We just looked at a map, and went "Well, if there are waves here, there's gotta be waves there." And I started to understand push and all that. And because surfing had competitions in Greymouth, we knew therefore there must be good surfing in Greymouth. Because you don’t hold a surfing competition in Greymouth unless there’s surf. You don’t hold a surf competition anywhere unless there’s surf. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

BROWN: By that logic, we just went "Well, there are surf comps held in Kaikoura and all that, so we just started looking there for the surf."

CRAWFORD: Come 18, you were all over the South Island? 

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, that's 15 to 18. That’s the surfing expansion to the whole of the South Island. And that’s very intensive. When you’re out on or around the water, maybe 80% of the time was surfing?

BROWN: Well that’d be a little unfair, because I still loved boating and fishing. And by that time Dad had bought a new boat, so we’d go out on that a lot together. And we would go regularly to Surfers Paradise in Australia. By 18 I’d already been to Aussie 8-9 times, and surfed Burleigh Heads, Kirra, Snapper and all that.

CRAWFORD: Ok, that’s good to know. At that point, your exploration phase, you were listing places I don’t know - but around Australia is this like the north-western shore of the country or what?

BROWN: Oh, the Gold Coast. At the start, it was pretty much all the Gold Coast. Brisbane down to Coolangatta. Down towards Sydney up to New South Wales, we’d just go three times a year to Australia. 

CRAWFORD: For a week at a time?

BROWN: No, it was two weeks of school holidays, so normally we’d go for the two weeks. We’d do that when we were younger as well, but the difference was now because all the famous surfers were from there - you know Tom Caroll, all the legends. So at 15-16 I used to go there, but now it was like "I want to meet one of these legends." I even got to surf with Occy [Mark Occhilupo], well he surfed past me. I was just like "It’s Occy! Holy shit!" It was cool. 

CRAWFORD: So the region that you were developing at the time was Australia's Gold Coast? 

BROWN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: You’re expanding your range. It’s still surf, surf, surf with some other things too. Massive number of hours on the water, lots of coverage. Then at 18, things change?

BROWN: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: What happened?

BROWN: A girl. 

CRAWFORD: [laughs].

BROWN: A particular girl. There was a girl in St. Kilda, she was hanging out at the surf club, and she’d come down to St. Kilda and all that. I kind of liked her quite a lot, and she walked into the surf club up there. Jeremy, he lives over in Western Australia now, he’s one of my best mates - he knew of her. He said, "Oh just come in for a shower." And I just hosed the sand off myself at the surf club, and just got talking to her. Anyway, that was my first taste of the surf club - literally hand on heart - the only reason why I joined the surf club is I just looked around and realized there were a lot of girls in this club.

CRAWFORD: [laughs] But once you got in, it became more than a casual kind of thing?

BROWN: What happened one day was - it quite fixated in my mind - I was just walking along the beach, just looking for a wave, and I got to St. Kilda and there was this dune, it's no longer there just because of erosion, and we always used to stand on this same dune to check up and down the beach. I was up there, and there was no one around, and the waves were ok they weren’t great, and I just happened to look down and I saw this guy in a rip [current]. I knew it was a rip, but I’d never cared before because, you know - when there’s someone in trouble, someone else will save them, or a life guard will rescue them, or something like that. I was looking around, and there’s just no-one there, because there were no life guards on. It was through the week and after school. And I was like "Oh, he’s in trouble." And I just literally paddled out there grabbed him, pulled him on the board, and pulled him in. Back then, cell phones weren’t as common as they are now, so someone would have to run to a house to ring for help, so when the police came down and all that sort of stuff ... He was in a bad way, but he survived. And that’s when the pin dropped for me that there is something more to this. They were a bit surprised I managed to get out there. I was like "Well, I just swam out and got him. It wasn’t hard. It was just water."

CRAWFORD: But you had all of that water background. Your Mother’s focus, and all of the training and time that you spent on the water. You were a good swimmer.

BROWN: Well, yeah, and I was comfortable with the water. Wasn’t afraid of it in any form. 

CRAWFORD: In a rip, as well?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. So that was kind of an amalgamating event?

BROWN: Yeah. It was all the pieces falling into place. I’d never ever looked at it like that before. But from then on, it was just all on. Ultimately, I became captain lifeguard. 

CRAWFORD: But you still had at least a split-reality, because you were still surfing as well as Surf Life Saving?

BROWN: Surfing was still 80% of my commitment. Because you only have to do 24 hours on patrols, which is four 6-hour patrols a year to be ...

CRAWFORD: Per year?

BROWN: Yeah. It’s not an onerous task at all. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s your commitment to the club for service. When did the Surf Life Saving competitions start?

BROWN: Competitions started for me quite a lot later. There’s canoe racing, but all that stuff was only because the pretty girls were also in racing comps. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’re at around age 18-19 years. It’s still an 80-20 split between surfing and Surf Life Saving?

BROWN: Very much. 

CRAWFORD: And geographically, still all over the country for surfing?

BROWN: Yeah and at about 20 it was Australia too. Me and the boys, no longer just the family, would go on trips to Australia. We went to Bali, and then we started looking at the little islands in the Pacific, going "How are we going to get to that island?" We went to Aitutaki off Rarotonga because it just looked like there could be a wave there. We were just looking for a quick gamble.

CRAWFORD: Approximately how many weeks per year surfing out of country?

BROWN: Probably still six to eight weeks. 

CRAWFORD: Plus the other things. But your range was expanding globally as well?

BROWN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, that's till approximately 20. What changed next? 

BROWN: Yeah. Meeting my future wife was a big change, stability there. Instead of being just a free agent "Let’s go to this competition, let’s do this, let’s do that." So that pulled things into alignment. Then I became part of Search & Rescue, because Jeremy was in it when I first met him. His pager would go off, and he’d run off and go and do a job.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That lasted until approximately when? 30?

BROWN: No. That would have been until 26-27. And then I’d be racing - competition with surf life saving, the little orange boats [inflatable rescue boats]. There are competitions for that. That really kicked in for me then. I did do it earlier, but I sort of stopped. Then I got that hunger and that was through Peter Gibbons, because I drove the boat for rescue stuff and all that, and I just was good at driving a boat. So I entered in IRB competitions.

CRAWFORD: Were these IRB competitions cutting into your surfing time?

BROWN: Yes, it did a lot. But, in different ways because your trainings were only short, because it’s all about technique and the fitness - the surfing was perfect fitness for it. But the technical side of it was just time in the water. We would be snapping boats, flipping them, having to swim in from them. Well, we broke down one time badly, out near White Island. And that was big, we were in real trouble because that was a big swim in. You just had to get experience in the boat. When the surf was no good, we were out in the IRB, exploring the coast. And we were also using it to look around corners, peering around corners where we could never see before, using the IRB to see if there were waves there.

CRAWFORD: So, it fed back on the surfing stuff?

BROWN: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. That’s 27? What's the next natural break, in terms of activity or region or amount of time?

BROWN: Kids probably would be the real game changer. 

CRAWFORD: How old were you?

BROWN: I would have been 33.

CRAWFORD: Did it affect the distribution of your time in those different activities? Or just the total amount of time? 

BROWN: Something had to give. The Surf Life Saving competitions, I was starting to become quite good at them. I was winning a bit more than not winning, and I had a competitive streak in me that I never really had before. Surfing, even surf comps, I never really gave a damn, so to speak. But for some reason there was a hunger there to beat people. I think that was because driving the IRB while racing was a lot like practicing for rescues, because you have to go fast, you have to be ready, you have to be able to drive in any conditions. That’s why I liked it.

CRAWFORD: The Search & Rescue?

BROWN: Yeah. They even got called out just today. Happens all the time. A boat flipped at Taieri Mouth. Two guys in the water. Anyway, something had to give. And I chose to give up surfing. Not give it up completely, but it got reduced dramatically. 

CRAWFORD: So you could maintain ...

BROWN: [IRB] boat racing and the Search & Rescue. But still surfing probably 2-3 times a week, which wasn't much because it was only for about 2-3 hours at a time. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s with kids. Does it kind of stay that way for a while?

BROWN: When #2 came along in 2007, I actually started doing a lot more - I was surfing a lot. I had a lot more free time. It was interesting, I suppose you get better at it. Time, you can manage things better, and you get some experience, and go "These things aren't actually so hard you know?" [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

BROWN: I found I could go surfing quite a lot, and went to Roratonga for a big surf trip.  Where else did I go? Back to Western Australia, so I went to Perth for three months for surfing. 

BROWN: But it was back in 2005 when I started working with the sporting company ... Because my whole life revolves around surfing and that, so I even work in the industry of surfing - I used to buy the wetsuits and the surfboards, I still do, have a lot to do with that. I got to meet all the famous surfers, because they were the investors for Ambassador, so that actually became my job. It’s ironic in that I was being paid to do this. I had been running around for ages trying to meet these guys, and now they’re literally just walking into the shop to come and meet me for word. So it’s quite funny. They gave me boards and stuff like that, so surfing was part of my job. Because if you’re out there seen to be doing it, they believed that it would increase your sales, because you knew what you were talking about.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, does that then put you into a period that takes you up to the present, or did something else change?

BROWN: No, it was pretty consistent from there on. It changed a bit with the second and third child. 

CRAWFORD: In the most recent period, roughly how many days a week would you be spending on or around the water?

BROWN: Until last year, because of my decision to pull back on everything, for deliberate reasons, change of focus, I would still be at the beach almost every day - in the water in some way or form. Either diving, going for Pāua or just exploring, having adventures or surfing or doing something with the IRBs. That said, in the case of the summer before work I’d go for a surf.  Then come back home - because it gets light at 5 in the morning, so you go for a surf, come home, the kids would wake up, get them dressed, get them ready for school, then you go to work, and then leave work, kids would be in bed by 7:30 pm - like this evening. And as you can tell, it’s still warm and sunny enough that you could go out surfing right now. The surf’s pumping, right now. 

CRAWFORD: We’re going to get back to that very specific observation about time of day, but that bring us up to about a year ago. You made a decision to take a different route with allocation of time?

BROWN: Yeah, because it became very apparent with three children that it just wasn’t going to be possible. 

CRAWFORD: Too many balls in the air?

BROWN: Correct. But also a shift. I now take the two older kids, they're 7 and 9 so they’re a little bit older than the 2-year-old, of course. They come out to the pool, they come out to the beach. We still go to the beach, but they’re in the water. I don’t count that as me doing that ...

CRAWFORD: But for my purposes, you’re still around the water while they’re in the water. 

BROWN: Oh, absolutely. I’m with them at the beach. 

CRAWFORD: And that’s why I was asking about time on, in or around the water. 

BROWN: Yeah, ok. Fair enough. Believe it or not I don’t actually count that as ... but you’re correct. 

CRAWFORD: You are there around the water. 

BROWN: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: If something happens, you’re going to see it or hear it.

BROWN: Oh, totally. Well, if that’s the case then nothing’s changed then. I'm still around the water a lot.

CRAWFORD: It’s an allocation of time to your next generation, and you’re there in support for them. They’re going through the cycle.

BROWN: I’m doing what my Mom did for me. 

CRAWFORD: But without the stick. 

BROWN: Oh, that was Duncan Laing. Yeah. [laughs] He was famous for his stick. 

CRAWFORD: But she took you to learn from Duncan, right?

BROWN: Yeah, that’s correct [laughs]. 

CRAWFORD: So, it was still her stick. 

BROWN: Yeah, that's true. 

EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: How much Māori culture and knowledge has affected your thinking about the marine ecosystem general?

BROWN: Very low. 

CRAWFORD: What about Science. How much has Science culture and knowledge affected your understanding?

BROWN: Very high.

CRAWFORD: You are one of the few people to score that as 'Very High.' Why do you say that?

BROWN: Because I wanted to know what made the waves work. So all of my education, from as soon as I got into surfing, I changed all my classes so I could learn about it. I’m relatively good at math.

CRAWFORD: Ok. On top of that, that type of Western critical thinking, that type of science-based approach to things ... is it the case that you've also learned a lot from Science about the ecosystem, the plants and the animals?

BROWN: Well, I suppose it’s indirect but I mean, like you know where the Seal colonies are. It’s always because there’s a headland just jutting out that was suitable for them to live on. But just by that very nature, there is usually sort of a hook in it, so every peninsula has some sort of hook. Every land mass is shaped by the ocean and the swells.

CRAWFORD: But what I’m get at is ... the things that are shaping the physical nature of surf conditions, are the same things that drive the ecosystem.

BROWN: Correct.

CRAWFORD: But would it be fair to say that Science has influenced more of your understanding about physical processes - more than the biological or ecological processes?

BROWN: Yes.

WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: For all of the time that you've spent around both South and North Island - as a surfer that has been travelling and swimming and surfing throughout - when you think of hotspots for White Pointers in particular, where do you think?

BROWN: Catlins.

CRAWFORD: Catlins. Would you have also included Dunedin? The Otago Peninsula?

BROWN: Yeah, I will. But I guess from a surfing side of things, people use a term like ‘sharky’ and you know just to be careful with those kinds of comments.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, fair enough.

BROWN: Catlins because of the isolated, remote places. Lots of Seals, rugged terrain, and all that kind of thing. Giving it that edge you’re all alone. So, you know, urban myths and the like. 

CRAWFORD: Ok.

BROWN: Kind of like a kid being afraid of the dark. Because you can go down there and be the only one there. Whereas a lot of people are more comfortable surfing with others. If you have 70 people you have a 1 in 70 chance. Down there, you are likely by yourself. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, ok. That’s an important distinction between perceived risk and actual risk.

BROWN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Let’s just deal with that for a second. Is there any reason that you can think of that Otago Peninsula is a ‘sharky’ area when it comes to White Pointers?

BROWN: None whatsoever. 

CRAWFORD: More or less than anywhere else on the southeastern coast of South Island?

BROWN: If I were putting my scientific hand up, I cannot see any rhyme or reason why there wouldn’t be just as many White Pointers there, as there are there, or there, or there, or there, or there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about Stewart Island? Some people say it has not just a reputation, but it is actually higher in abundance or denser aggregations. 

BROWN: The only reason I am aware at all of White Pointers being there, was because of the Shark cage diving making the news. I wouldn’t consider it to be any higher in Sharks than anywhere else, in my opinion.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that if you went to any other place around coastal New Zealand, and you put the same kind of effort in terms of observation, or had the same number of people in or around the water - that you would find that these White Pointers are all over the place?

BROWN: I would believe so. I mean, I don’t know about their behaviour at all. But there is just as likely to be a White Pointer here as there. Why wouldn’t there be?

CRAWFORD: I’m thinking about what you learned from being directly connected to the surf and the Surf Life Saving communities in all of these different regions. They’re there all the time. Are there places around South Island in particular where people never see White Pointers? Or rarely see them?

BROWN: That’s interesting. I think it’s interesting because of where I work, and the amount of tourists that come in. They come in with their little guide book - there’s a surfing book called ‘New Zealand’s Surfing Guide.’ It’s not a little book, it’s 450 pages long. It actually has a little ‘X’ on it to caution for Sharks. And I always laughed at it, because it’s like “Where did it get its information from?” Because you know, it’s just a book on all the waves. But I get asked an awful lot - we get a lot of surf tourists come through down to the Catlins. And the most common question I get asked from them is “Oh, I heard ...” You get some Europeans coming in, and they want to live the New Zealand dream, surf and catch fish all day. “Oh, I heard the Catlins are ‘sharky’.” It’s quite remarkable. I’m always fascinated because I’m like “Where did you hear this?” This one German tourist had just landed in Christchurch, and driven from there to here just to do the trip.

CRAWFORD: The scenic tour?

BROWN: Yeah, they do the scenic thing. But they all go the same route. We sell a lot of surfboards and wetsuits to the tourists that are doing this route. Even today, we sold two boards and wetsuits to two girls who are in a camper van, just driving around. So, they’re going down to Porpoise Bay, and they’re going to Parakanui Bay, and the comment is often “Oh, I hear it’s quite ‘sharky’ down there.”

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

BROWN: [laughs] "Well you should see them up around here then."

CRAWFORD:  That’s a very good point. And just so you know, this work I’m doing gives some coverage in terms of knowledge holders not just from Otago or Stewart Island, but also the Catlins, Fiordland, and Foveaux Strait. I want to get a little bit more deeply-seeded in there, and then we’ll see what they say when it comes time to understanding the tourists and their impressions of the Catlins being ‘sharky.’ 

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What, if anything, do you know about population migration, dynamics or anything for White Pointers?

BROWN: For White Pointers, I know that they travel a lot further than people originally thought. That they migrate. Before you came along, I was already familiar with the fact that the little group from here in New Zealand will go over to Australia, and over to Thailand I think it is. And then come down around, almost on a yearly loop, which I find quite fascinating that they went away and came back like that. I had heard that they hung around Long Point and stuff like that, and then they moved out. I didn’t know that, this is myth speaking about the surfing, myths of twilight and all that. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. Common wisdom or some call them ‘old wives’ tales’ - but they’re much more than that.

BROWN: Yeah, but winter, cold water - Sharks hate it so there’s no Sharks around the winter. If you’re surfing in the winter, in the middle of the day, you’ll never see a Shark - that’s what a lot of people believe. 

CRAWFORD: Do you believe that?

BROWN: No, not at all. Because there are Sharks that live over in Antarctica that I’m sure come up here.
 
CRAWFORD: Campbell Island?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: People were surprised when that attack happened at Campbell Island in 1992, because they didn’t even think that White Pointers migrated that far south. 

BROWN: Yeah. You know, there'll be plenty of Sharks that are a risk to Humans, and there are some that no doubt will migrate down this way for the winter because although that water’s cold, this water’s warmer. So, this is their summer/our winter, so to speak.

CRAWFORD: Good point. Last question is about the Dunedin City Council Shark nets that got deployed at your beaches - St. Clair, St. Kilda and Brighton - after the attacks. What was the general feeling of the Surf Life Saving community and/or the surfers, with regards to the DCC shark nets?

BROWN: Most of the people hated them, because they were just killing little Sharks. They were indiscriminately killing everything that was going through the nets, you know? We’d go out there quite often. We’d tie up the IRB at one end, swim along the net with a snorkel mask, and go along and see the whole thing. I’d look and see huge holes in it where something had gone through and had just ripped right through it. It didn’t stop something that was obviously quite big getting through, so what the hell is the point of it then? And they’re only 100 meters long at best. On a five-kilometer-long piece of beach. There could be 100 people at Long Beach in the water. There were no Shark nets there, so what’s the point? And we had a huge pod of Dolphins that came through. And there was always a risk that they’d get snagged, you know. I hated those nets.

CRAWFORD: Were those general feelings in the surf community? 

BROWN: Very much so. There were a lot of people that were pretty happy when they removed them.

CRAWFORD: Yet DCC ran them for a substantial period of time?

BROWN: I remember there were a lot of people through the years wanting them gone. But like Murphy’s Law, they get rid of them and then someone would get hit and then, they would be the ones who would take the blasting. So, they didn’t want to put their necks out. 

CRAWFORD: A liability issue?

BROWN: Yeah. But for me to get rid of the stigma of White Pointers would probably be the question of how to not make them seem like such a dangerous creature. 

CRAWFORD: And people manage risks by becoming informed about the things that matter. And the things that don’t.

BROWN: Yeah. Yeah. And controlling the myth of “Oh, there are always White Pointers that don’t like us Humans,” you know? 

CRAWFORD: Back in the day, back in the late-60s, early-70s, there was this spate of attacks around the Otago Peninsula. In a very short period of time, and in some regards in a very small region. Why was that? Any idea?

BROWN: I don’t know. Apart from the ‘water revolution’ - and you can quantify this with actual facts of drowning rates to be honest. Because people started really going to the beaches. Late-60s and early-70s, the beaches were the places to be. And I’d say more people started interacting with the ocean. 

CRAWFORD: You think it was an adjustment of probability of encounter based on Human density in the coastal waters?

BROWN: Yeah. Totally. Surfing came to the front during the ‘60s and ‘70s. It became huge. 

CRAWFORD: Was it more than it is now?

BROWN: No. No. 

CRAWFORD: Okay so that slightly argues against that idea, because you’d still expect ...

BROWN: No, because I think there was a line in the sand of “Well, we’ve lost a few people now.” They started actively killing the White Pointers. You had a lot more people actively going out to fish and kill White Pointers through the late-60s and ‘70s. 

CRAWFORD: Independent of the DCC nets?

BROWN: Yeah, I’m fairly sure. From what I can remember about the old stories - that people would go out, get them close and shoot them.
 
CRAWFORD: Really?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Around the Otago Peninsula?

BROWN: I believe so, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Okay, see this is again, that’s a piece of embedded knowledge. And while you don’t know it to be true, you’re under a distinct impression that it was the case.

BROWN: Well, I was at a point where if I read something I didn’t generally forget it. And in our old surf club, we used to have this old folder and unfortunately it got heavily water-damaged and in an incident with the roofing. But there were all these newspaper articles, and I read something then, it’s suddenly in my head. I can remember reading lots of articles about killing lots of White Pointers. I would say the majority of the bigger fish were probably killed off. And they take quite a long time to grow, to become big ol’ girls or boys. So those big dominant males and females, or whatever the way it works, they probably got removed from our system.

CRAWFORD: That is the first time I’ve heard anybody mention that specific cause and effect here at the Otago Peninsula. The possibility of a relationship, aside from the DCC nets. Specifically, about people going out, and not necessarily fishing for them, but going out there and attracting them to shoot them on principle. 

BROWN: Yeah.

WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCE

CRAWFORD: What’s your first memory of White Pointers?

BROWN: KZ-7. 

CRAWFORD: Very specifically? Tell me the story. 

BROWN: It was my Dad, always talking about the big White Pointer hanging around here. 

CRAWFORD: 'Here' being the Otago Peninsula?

BROWN: Yeah. He would go fishing, and Mom wouldn’t let me go that far out, because they would go quite far away out to see it. And he would bring back photos of the fin. Like he took photos of the fin beside the boat. 

CRAWFORD: Really?

BROWN: Oh, yeah. There are photos of KZ-7 easily online. All the polaroids. And the lads at the Tautuku Fishing Club should have some. Even the guy at Elio’s gun shop in South Dunedin should be able to put you onto the right person. That shop is one of the original old '80s shops, literally probably hasn’t changed. If you compare to a photo from the '80s to now, it probably has the cash register, probably has the same money in it. I can’t remember his name, but trust me - you just walk in there and you just say "Hey, I’m looking for some of the old-timers that might know something about KZ-7." You just explain who you are, you’re bound to be able to find someone. They’ll all say the same things I have. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You said this was the very first entry in your life history about White Pointers. As a kid, you had been swimming in the ocean around there for a long time ...

BROWN: And never, ever heard about them at all and then ... 

CRAWFORD: They weren’t even talked about? The old-timers didn’t say anything?

BROWN: No, nothing really. It never really sunk in. And then whoosh. In hindsight, the places we would swim - I mean, I would never do that now. Not with the experiences I’ve had. I would never, ever.

CRAWFORD: Give me an example of where you swam as a kid - that you would not swim now?

BROWN: Wickliffe Bay. That’s where the bach was.

CRAWFORD: That’s where what was?

BROWN: That’s where our place [bach] was.

CRAWFORD: That was home?

BROWN: That was home. 

CRAWFORD: So why would you not swim there now?

BROWN: Because there’s a massive Seal colony there. We’ve been out there surfing, and had fins come up. We’ve had Sharks come through and that really ... At home, no one gave a shit about that stuff. We were kids. You know, we were just swimming around trying to pull the biggest Horse Mussel off a rock underwater - just as a game, all that. We’re talking, like a rock off the headland, you know? It's just what we did. 

CRAWFORD: What do you remember from the photos?

BROWN: This may be inaccurate, but the image I have is of a blue boat with and white gun rail across the top of it. And there's quite a bit of lens flare in the photo, just from the sun reflecting off it. But this triangle, black, big, bulky, fin. And then way back, there is just a little, little, ripple of the back fin. And that was my Dad trying to photograph "Look at the size of the Shark that pulled up beside the boat."

CRAWFORD: How old were you at that point?

BROWN: Oh, 11, 12.

CRAWFORD: Did the animal have a name at that point? Or did it get a name later?

BROWN: No, I’m not sure. I couldn't tell you when. So KZ-7 was the first, well might have been the first, New Zealand boat in the America’s Cup. And the big sail on KZ-7, that’s when the name was applied to the Shark. So, you should be able to get a time stamp. [1986/87]

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, your first recollection was seeing this photo of a big Shark from off the Otago Peninsula?

BROWN: Yes, but I don’t know if it was KZ-7.

CRAWFORD: Right. but the point is, your Dad was showing you this picture. It was a very large Shark. It was something that you could see, that you could compare it to.

BROWN: Yeah. Because it was Dad’s boat, and Dad’s boat was about 18-foot long. This thing was as long as the boat. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. So, a big Shark. But I’m getting the sense that KZ-7 was also known to other people? 

BROWN: Oh, absolutely. It was, that’s correct.

CRAWFORD: Over a long period of time?

BROWN: Yes. So again, only hearsay and all that, because for some reason, I never really cared about it. I never really looked into it. But I do remember two stories. The first one, I can verify. Well I’m confident it’s true. The second one, I can’t promise you is true - but it’s a possibility. The first one was KZ-7, it was just seen everywhere. Was big, and it was, they believe it was a female. It was pretty substantial.

CRAWFORD: Let’s bring up the Otago Peninsula chart here. Your Dad's picture, that would have been off the Southeastern shore?

BROWN: Yeah so Tow Rock, which is down over there. They would launch somewhere in Carey's Bay, and they’d go round and fish all around here. So, your range of fishing would be round Taiaroa Head. And they’d also launch at Taieri Mouth, and fish all around that area there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So basically, from south of Taieri Mouth, past Taiaroa Head, up north how far? Karitane region?

BROWN: Totally. Yeah, yeah. They’d launch at Shag Point. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So that was your Dad's photo from off Taiaroa Head. You said there was another incident?

BROWN: I’m not sure if I’m imagining this one or not, but I have a recollection - and I have no need not to have the recollection unless it was true - of seeing a very large Shark, which they said was a White Pointer that had choked on a Craypot. It was lodged in its throat. And the fishing trawler, my Old Man was beside the trawler, and my Old Man took a photo of the dead Shark being pulled up. And the boat was like that, it was tilting as the Shark was being pulled over. And he took a photo. So I’ve got that image in my head - of that boat and the big White Pointer. 

CRAWFORD: Where do you think that might have been from?

BROWN: That was around here, again. Close to shore though, because Craypots were always close to shore. Not far offshore. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

BROWN: So that’s my two memories. But they didn’t scare me away from Sharks or anything. 

CRAWFORD: You mean while swimming or surfing?

BROWN: Yeah. The fear side didn’t come in until the incident at Possums Reef.

CRAWFORD: An incident that you were directly involved in?

BROWN: Oh yeah.

CRAWFORD: When was this?

BROWN: That would have ... well I know when that was, August 1994. 

CRAWFORD: So, how old were you?

BROWN: Oh, 22. 

CRAWFORD: You were surfing?

BROWN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Where specifically?

BROWN: Right there, offshore from Warrington. Where those little stars are, because they are indicating the reef we were surfing on.

CRAWFORD: Right. And you were surfing out there ...

BROWN: Five of us. 

CRAWFORD: What season?

BROWN: End of the winter coming into spring. We were preparing to go to Bali for a surf trip. 

CRAWFORD: What time of day?

BROWN: Morning. Exactly what time, I’m not sure. But morning.

CRAWFORD: 9-ish?

BROWN: 9 to 10, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What happened?

BROWN: We’re sitting out there. It was me, Michael Joyce, Christian Collins, James Lazar and Paul Clearwater. We were there, and Paul Clearwater had site, James Lazar had just caught a wave. I know this for a fact because what happened is comical. And scary as hell for us, but comical as well. So the way the reef is, it’s a left-hander, and it peels off and drops into the deep. James had just taken one. I remember, I know why, because we were sitting there sitting there, just looking out at the waves, waiting for another set to come. And this wave walled up in front of us, just like it normally would. And then there’s this - like a thrash and a bit of whitewater. And I remember turning around to Joyce, like “That was odd.” Because normally you associate that sort of thing with some sort of boil-up, or some sort of rock, or a bit of shallow reef. Because the wave sort of almost broke, as if something made it sort of start to crumble a wee bit?

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

BROWN: Yeah, it was really unusual. There’s no mechanism out there to do that. I never clicked. It didn’t click at the start. And three or four waves had gone past. We’re just all sort of sitting out there. We’re all sitting close together, not for safety - just, there’s a point where you can’t catch a wave any further that way, because it’s just too deep, it’s too heavy. But you always try to push the other guy to make him too deep, so that you can have it. That sort of competition, you know? Friendly rivalry. But anyway, so we’re all a tight pack, and then this wave rolled up, and there she was. This swell came up, and the whole thing - we could just see it clear as day in the swell.

CRAWFORD: You could see the Shark clear as day - laterally?

BROWN: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, this animal was up in the wave?

BROWN: Pumping along at high speed through the swell. Like came in through the left. Just was like moving. Just went right past us. Just absolutely humming. And I got to see it clear as, clear as. Because the sun comes up over the sea. As the wave was warming up. the sun was pushing through - so you saw the perfect silhouette. And it was hucking. Like I mean it was moving! And we just ... I mean, there was just so much turbulence after. Like the wave was all getting distorted from how much ... it had a bulb of water pushing ahead of it as it was powering through. And it was big. It was really big. And I was just like ... "Holy. Fuck."

CRAWFORD: [laughs]

BROWN: And Mike turns, and because it’s reef, it’s not really ideal to let a wave hit you on the head and then push you in. I didn’t give a damn. I just turned around, and the wave hit me in the back, and I just got minced into all the kelp and all that. The kelp was all wrapped around me. and I was getting washed up. I was getting the hell out of there. Then we had the big paddle over into the bay. And everyone else was all gone. We got to the edge to go into the channel, and I remember taking the biggest breath of nerves. I was just “Suck it up, we’ve gotta paddle across the deep channel now.” And we’re looking behind, looking for the fin. I was like “Fuck, that was big!” And Joyce and that were all going “Jesus Christ” and we’re all talking as we’re going. I remember putting my fingers in, probably about a millimeter, like tippy-toeing like that, trying to not make any noise. Like what do you do? Are you quiet? Do you just paddle forward? I was thinking in my head just a million miles an hour. Anyway, I got to the shore, and I can remember - I didn’t even care. Because it was all rocks, and you’ve gotta sort of pick your way. I just didn’t give a shit. I was just straight up onto the rocks, board on the rocks, holding the board. Didn’t give a shit. I just wanted to get onto dry land and I did. [big shiver]. And then we turned around, and James is ... he’d caught the rip, and was paddling out because he was unaware of what had happened. And we were just ... I just .. my heart just dropped. I said “Oh, fuck.” Because we’d just looked around to see our mate is still out there. And like a long way out there. Because it’s a long way offshore. 

CRAWFORD: How long?

BROWN: Oh, it was 400, 500 meters of deep water to the reef. And he’s by himself. And we were just screaming. But he couldn’t hear us, because the waves were breaking and all that. And you can see him looking around like “Oh.” And he just didn’t see it at all, and just caught waves. You know, because you just get into this cycle where you get into this circular motion. And then he finally looked to the shore, and he could see all four of us on the beach. And you could just see him. You could just see the pin dropped in his head, and he just went [finger snap]. Because he just caught another stupid wave that threw him onto the kelp and the rocks as well, which was a good indication that he was just like “Fuck.” And you could see him getting in. He was white as a ghost, because he was all by himself, the poor bastard. And he was on the beach, and seriously, he was on his hands and knees just exhausted. Just like [hyperventilates] “Where was it? Where was it?” And we were all “We don’t know.” And he goes “Was it big?” And I go “Fucking right it was big.”

CRAWFORD: So he knew, not from his direct experience ... he knew from your behaviour, that he had to hightail it in?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: I want you to go back to that image. 

BROWN: I’ll never forget it as long as I live. 

CRAWFORD: You actually saw something, a precursor, that something was happening?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What do you figure it was? Looking back now?

BROWN: A strike.

CRAWFORD: Yeah?

BROWN: Yeah. It had got something. It had just plowed into something.

CRAWFORD: Was that something likely to be a Seal?

BROWN: Well, this I don’t know. Up there, there are little Dolphins. 

CRAWFORD: Hector’s Dolphins?

BROWN: Yeah, they live there. I don’t know if they attack them or not though. I’m not sure. But this fish was big - like genuinely hand-on-heart-big. So, I would be surprised that it would care about a little mullet or something. But I don’t know. We didn’t see anything. But we literally ... because all the time I had been surfing, I never cared to scan the water, to care to look for anything like that.

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

BROWN: And ever since then - I’m always, always looking. When I paddle out, I’m just doing a glance out at the sea to see if there is anything there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. There’s the splash and the flash, prior to what you see. Later, was there blood of any kind?

BROWN: No. Well, there could have been. But I didn’t even think about it because in my head, I was going back to what I knew - there’s no mechanism for a boil-up to create that form of wave. I was just confused from a scientific point, not scientific, but I just couldn’t figure it out.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, that could be science. 

BROWN: Well, I was trying to figure out - what made the wave to form like that? To do that? It just didn’t register. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

BROWN: Because I’ve seen seagulls and birds hit the water, and all that. And this wasn’t that, because it was a substantial amount of whitewater, and it really made the wave wall.

CRAWFORD: Alright. When you saw this Shark, it was booking. You only saw it for a couple of seconds?

BROWN: Yeah. It came right through past us, and yeah it was - it was hauling ass. 

CRAWFORD: You saw the tail moving?

BROWN: No. But two things. The sheer speed that it came through the water, and the big bulb of water that was pushing up in front of it.

CRAWFORD: You didn’t actually see the tail doing anything. But you saw the body pushing water?

BROWN: Yeah. I saw the body pushing water. And then when the wave moved past, it disturbed enough of the back of the wave make it all ripple up. So, it left a wake, if you will. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember anything about colouration, or shape, or features like that?

BROWN: The colour of the wave was absolutely the same as the background. It was as black as black could be. But I do remember one thing - that it was extremely thick, girth-wise.

CRAWFORD: Top to bottom?

BROWN: Top to bottom. I was quite surprised when we were talking about it on the beach, for how long it was. The proportion of how thick it was, to it’s actual length, you know? I would have thought a slender bullet. Not something so meaty in there, in proportion to the length.

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

BROWN: Looked like a cow.

CRAWFORD: I know that it’s not really possible for you to say with confidence, but why was it moving so fast?

BROWN: I think it was just trying to get whatever it was after. In hindsight, I think it may have nipped or winged something.

 CRAWFORD: That the chase was still on?

BROWN: The chase was still on.

CRAWFORD: Did anybody else see anything after that?

BROWN: No. We were on the beach ... well, to be fair that’s all that was going on in my head when we were standing on the beach watching Lazar come back to the shore. I was just waiting going any second, any second, any second ... I was just thinking "t’s going to hit him." That was what I was thinking, and so I wasn’t looking anywhere else. I was just fixated on that. 

CRAWFORD: No, but if there was a fin out there you would have definitely seen it?

BROWN: No. The way the waves were breaking through all the kelp and all that. I don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how big were the waves?

BROWN: They were a good 4 foot ... the reason we deliberately surfed there was because we were going to Bali, and we were preparing for big, heavy waves. So, it was about 4-6 foot. Like I said, for me to turn and take one in the back to get minced into the reef - it wasn’t a good experience. But I didn’t care. That would pale in comparison to what could have been. 

CRAWFORD: The idea of that fish, that place, that time. In your mind, if it wasn’t KZ-7 it was a close cousin?

BROWN: Oh, totally. 

CRAWFORD: KZ-7 had that massive fin. But did KZ-7 have any other distinguishing features that people would recognize that individual fish?

BROWN: I believe that KZ-7 had a nick in its fin. There’s sort of a mark on the back of the wedge. People think there is something distinct about KZ-7 from the fin.

CRAWFORD: In behind the dorsal fin?

BROWN: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But you didn’t see that. Nor were you looking for it.

BROWN: No. Well I wasn’t expecting it. And just the sheer mass of it. I was in shock. The sheer mass of the wake. The thing that just stuck in my head was just the amount of water pushing ahead of it. It was just incredible. 

CRAWFORD: Realizing that size is one thing, but size and speed together is another. Basking Sharks get even bigger, but Basking Sharks don’t move that fast under any circumstances.

BROWN: This was not a Basking Shark.

CRAWFORD: It was a large Shark. Likely a White Pointer. It might or might not have been KZ-7. It might or might not have been the same Shark other people were seeing. Did anybody else have experiences like that in the region? I’m presuming, because you didn’t mention it before, that the old-timers never mentioned anything about these big Sharks there. And warning surfers or whoever to be wary of that location? Anything like that?

BROWN: No. The only rule of thumb we had going out, was just to be wary of the Seal colony around the southern points.

CRAWFORD: Why?

BROWN: I guess because there was a theory that they would hang around the Seal colonies.

CRAWFORD: The White Pointers would?

BROWN: Yeah. So, it was just to be careful of Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: That they would be hanging around the colonies as potential feeding sites?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Was there anything in terms of seasons or conditions or time of day?

BROWN: Yes, definitely. Very much so. That’s a very good question. So again, whether it was proved or not, dusk and dawn were two times ... "You don’t surf those times." In the twilight hours early, very early morning, and very late at night. 

CRAWFORD: So, combination of location and time of day?

BROWN: Very much.

CRAWFORD: Was this a very strong warning?

BROWN: Very. 

CRAWFORD: Did you get this from your Mom or ...

BROWN: No, no, no. This was just from surfers. You know, because we started asking questions ever since, after Possums Reef. Until then, we didn’t give a shit.  I used to surf Pipikaretu, which is now closed. And there’s a big Seal colony there, and a Penguin colony and all that. And like that’s right out there. And Sandfly Bay, it just drops right off into the deep abyss, so to speak, and you’re right out, you know? You’re fully exposed. There’s a big Seal colony near there. We never had a care in the world. 

CRAWFORD: Are you thinking as you now? Or are you thinking what was known or cautioned back then, with that precipice?

BROWN: No. We didn’t care about it. We didn’t even ask questions about those risks until after that day. And I was like “That’s not happening to me again.”

CRAWFORD: This kind of thing definitely shakes people up?

BROWN: It did. 

CRAWFORD: Shook you up, and I think you already said - changed the way you did things from then on?

BROWN: Absolutely. 100 percent.

CRAWFORD: But this took place roughly a kilometre from where a fatal attack had happened 20 years prior? 

BROWN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: And you had also walked past, on a daily basis, neighborhood beaches where other fatal attacks had happened?

BROWN: Correct. 

CRAWFORD: But you were a very young boy ... wait, what year were you born?

BROWN: 1972.

CRAWFORD: Yes, you were born just after the time that these attacks had happened. Were those stories, those events, not deeply entrenched in the community?

BROWN: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: People didn’t talk about the attacks at St. Clair or St. Kilda?

BROWN: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: People didn’t talk about Aramoana?

BROWN: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: Holy crap. How could they not?

BROWN: I didn’t know that anyone had died from a Shark attack, until when I went in the surf club and saw it on the wall. 

CRAWFORD: You saw the plaque for Bill Black?

BROWN: Yeah, but I didn’t even know ... obviously it had been in the club a long time, but they didn’t have ‘Died of a Shark attack.’ It was just a photo of him. It was only, maybe 10, 11 years ago that the plaque was redone to make it a bit more accurate. And the lad next to him which is the mystery one, which is still an unusual circumstance - the jury’s out on that one, you know?

CRAWFORD: Ok. Please finish the part you were telling me about how you finally learned about the attack, much after the fact?

BROWN: Oh, yeah. The only reason I knew that someone had actually died at St. Clair was from a TV documentary that was done. Sorry, TV reenactment, that was done 30 years since the passing of this guy. I was like “Whoa, there’s been more than one attack?” Because I’d heard of one. And we’re talking by about 1996 by now, because even in the surf club, I’d seen the sign and I thought he’d died. But then “Oh. He was taken by a Shark?” That was 50 years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah.

BROWN: But this was still after the fact of me seeing the Whiter Pointer in 1994. Nobody I knew ever made the connections between St. Kilda and Possums Reef - never. I just never surfed Possums again, and have not surfed Possums since. I have never been back to that wave.

CRAWFORD: Is that a place where surfers just don’t go?

BROWN: No. Surfers go there all the time. It’s probably one of our best waves. But I just can’t surf there. I want to surf there. I can’t. I drive past it on the way to Karitane because I surf Wellington Point, which is only 300 metres around the corner. I race boats there. I’ve swum competitions at Warrington Beach which is in the line of sight. I can see the reef break while I’m swimming out for a race or something. But I can’t go there.

CRAWFORD: Well that’s interesting because Peter Gibbons this morning was talking about the very strong ...  these aren’t ripples, these are waves of effect. He said there are people who were there for the attacks at St. Clair and St. Kilda, and they were lifetime swimmers, Surf Life Saving club members. And they never went back to the water.

BROWN: Yeah. And then there’s John Constable.

CRAWFORD: John Constable?

BROWN: Yeah. On all the trophies. You’ve got him winning competitions - John Constable, John Constable, John Constable - could have been like three years in a row or in quick succession. 

CRAWFORD: He left and never came back? 

BROWN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you did learn more about the St. Clair and St. Kilda attacks, what did you hear about those incidences?

BROWN: I just knew someone had lost their leg. To be fair, I still don’t know the full story. I know Dave Gerrard because he’s a friend of mine, I know he was the doctor who happened to be on the beach at the time. I suppose he bled to death on the beach, and that’s about it, really. 

CRAWFORD: Specifically, which beach was that?

BROWN: St. Clair. 

CRAWFORD: And what about the St. Kilda attack?

BROWN: Well I know a lot more about that. And that’s just from the stories. 

CRAWFORD: From one generation to the next - that’s the kind of knowledge I’m looking for. 

BROWN: So, I know that the lad was swimming, he was winning the race, the guy in second place ...

CRAWFORD: Whoa, whoa. Let's set it up. What time of year?

BROWN: Well, it would have to be summer months because the water was too cold otherwise. I don’t even know when. It would have probably been December, January, February.

CRAWFORD: Time of day anything like that?

BROWN: No. But they’re always held in the morning, is my understanding. But this was 1967 I think, or '65. 

CRAWFORD: An old-school Surf Life Saving competition?

BROWN: Belt race. 

CRAWFORD: How many people involved?

BROWN: It was one person on a belt, and a team of ... you can have four on the reel, or six - depending on the match. It was very regimented. You got scored on how straight you were, and how square. You know, this is army-style scoring - like your uniform, "Is everything creased? Is everything right?" They walk down in a marching performance, and people would score if your foot was on an angle this way or that. So, then this reel was planted here, and the rope was fed out. And it had to be fed out the proper way. 

CRAWFORD: The rope was fed out by the lads on the reel?

BROWN: Yeah, these are the lads on the reel. And then the guy on the belt would have to be clipped in a certain way, and then swim out to ... They’d have a can out there that they’d go swim to and touch. Yes, it was important to get to the can first, but the scoring was on the procedures and how clean and how precise everything was.

CRAWFORD: The technique?

BROWN: Yes. Of the whole lot. 

CRAWFORD: How would they know if you’d touched the can?

BROWN: You’d have to put your hand up, is my understanding of it.

CRAWFORD: Ok.

BROWN: I know there were variations, because sometimes they’d have people out there who you’d have to rescue.

CRAWFORD: But not this time?

BROWN: I don’t believe so. They were - that had never been mentioned. I never heard that in a story, and I think I would have heard that. That’s why I’m assuming that this is how they did this one. Because otherwise there was a person out there who I’d never heard of, never knew their name.

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

BROWN: So, the guy behind him or next to him or near him in the race ...

CRAWFORD: There were multiples going out at the same time?

BROWN: Yeah, there always is. I think that there’s always six or eight in each heat. So the guys, from what I know, from stories, something went wrong with the rope. It went slack or pulled or whatever, I’m not sure. And then the guy swimming beside went though ... it was just a water of red. And he didn’t understand, or click quite right, but he just didn’t know where the guy ahead, Bill Black, had gone. He knew Bill was ahead of him, but he was just gone. I don’t know much about the story beyond that. 

CRAWFORD: The lads on the reel?

BROWN: Yeah. They realized something was wrong when they pulled back on the rope, and he was gone. There was just nothing there.

CRAWFORD: No belt?

BROWN: No belt ... no, a bit of it. I think there was a bit of the belt, a metal clip. I think that must have been there. I’m fairly sure there was a part of the belt that was still left, from the stories I’ve heard. I didn’t ask too many questions about it. 

CRAWFORD: It obviously had a deep and profound effect on quite a few people but did it ...

BROWN: It didn’t bother me at all.

CRAWFORD: Did the club, or did the community, change anything that they did, as a result of that incident?

BROWN: Well, I believe that the Shark nets were a big push. When I joined the club, there was never really an emphasis on Sharks. There never had been.

CRAWFORD:  And you joined when? 

BROWN: 1990-ish. But when I hung around and when I officially signed were two different things. I signed on the dotted line in 1991, but I was hanging around there a couple years earlier than that. Probably 87. 

CRAWFORD: That's still 15-20 years after the fact.

BROWN: Oh, yeah. Totally.  But even all through that ... like there was this old Shark siren - like as an air raid thing that you’d plug into the wall. It was a game to lock the grommets [young Surf Life Saver] in a room and play it, because you couldn’t turn it off, and it was deafening. That was the Shark one. They used to throw it around like a joke, because it was never used.

CRAWFORD: And yet when the Surf Life Saving volunteers are out on patrol, and the flags go out - they are specifically watching within that region. They are watching for swimmers in distress, they are watching if somebody is boating through there, rip currents ...

BROWN: Totally. Broken bottles, and our preventative action policy, and all that. We had to check the beach to make sure there was no glass on the beach.

CRAWFORD: All of this ...

BROWN: And never Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: During the time that you were looking out on the water during patrol, if you did see a Shark, it was part of the practice and policy to respond in some way?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What were you taught, or what was the norm?

BROWN: We had signals, we had processes for you know ‘hands up’ like that if the radio coms weren’t working, or something like that. For Sharks, to the left then to the right, all that sort of stuff. We all got taught it, all got drilled into you and all that, but no one believes it’s ever going to happen. No one gave a shit about it because, without it sounding horrible, it was just a plaque on the wall, you know? That’s really all it was.

CRAWFORD: It was disconnected from the reality of the day?

BROWN: Totally, yeah. I think that’s because, in my opinion on most of it, and this would probably create a bit of emotion for people who were there ... I don’t hold any animosity toward the thing that swam past me at a million miles an hour. Because I’m in its world. That’s the way I see it, and a lot of us do. We’re in their world. If I guy get bit by a Lion out on the savannah, or attacked by a Bear in the forest - well you’re out there doing it. You know what I mean? But there’s a big difference between that, and a guy getting stabbed to death by someone with a knife, you know? That’s appalling. Whereas if someone got mauled to death by a Bear out there, enjoying life - that’s just a risk you take. It’s kind of the same, because I’m not afraid to go surfing. I still surf, I still dive, I still boat. Bear in mind we still haven’t talked about all my Shark encounters ...

CRAWFORD: We'll get to them. Ok. Let’s just wrap up the Surf Life Saving experience. Is there some type of Surf Life Saving national policy, or basic instruction or things to look for, or things to do regarding Sharks?

BROWN: We do have to be vigilant in the water for all hazards and all risks. But for my club, the club in St. Clair and the clubs that I’m associated with, our biggest risk from the ocean, apart from the rips is Seals. 

CRAWFORD: Seals?

BROWN: Yeah they are ...

CRAWFORD: Seals or Sea Lions?

BROWN: Oh, Sea Lions - yes. Well, and Leopard Seals. Still today we get Leopard Seals storming in. Bear in mind I’ve also been bitten by a Seal. I had to have medical attention because one bit me on the foot. 

CRAWFORD: While you were surfing?

BROWN: Yeah. I was coming in, and it was hassling us, and it just nipped me in the foot. I was about this far away from getting out on the bloody beach, and it bit me on the foot. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I get that. But on a very club-specific basis, Sea Lions are a priority for St. Clair/St. Kilda, and their population dynamics as I understand it are changing. The population abundance is increasing?

BROWN: Correct.

CRAWFORD: And the animals are moving, and there have been much more frequent Sea Lion-Human interactions?

BROWN: Yeah. I've been around a long time, and I have taken special note of this. I am sure that someone’s got stats on it - that there are more Seals and all that. There’s no way there are more Sea Lion interactions on the beach now, than there has been for a while. I would 99% guarantee you that the Sea Lions coming onto our beaches numbers are the same as they always have been.

CRAWFORD: Ok.

BROWN: It’s just that ... now what they've done is that John Wilson Drive has been closed down. You can’t have the population as gated, there are bollards on the thing there that bottleneck the people, so when a Sea Lion comes up onto the beach there are vastly more people in a smaller, narrower area.

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

BROWN: And St. Clair has no sand now, so people can’t go there. So everyone is now getting confined, instead of having a large Human population that’s spread out.

CRAWFORD: There is an increase in abundance, and a decrease in space, so the density is going through the roof?

BROWN: Yes. So instead of one person seeing a Sea Lion, and someone having an isolated interaction with a Sea Lion, and no one else noticing it, it doesn’t make the news - now 500 people with 500 phones all get it on film.

CRAWFORD: Let’s just go back to Surf Life Saving club policy for members. When volunteers are deployed in response to anything, there has to be some type of incident report?

BROWN: Correct. 

CRAWFORD: And that has been going since Day One; very regimented. That could provide at least some metric of consistent reporting for those clubs in particular, for the rest of those 70+ clubs in the country. That could be very a useful source of information. But thinking back just to what you know as an individual, for the past 20 or so years associated with St. Clair and St. Kilda?

BROWN: 26 years.

CRAWFORD: How many Sharks have you seen along that stretch of water?

BROWN: Between where? 

CRAWFORD: Oh, let’s say south of the Otago Peninsula. You’ve spent so much time all over this place. 

BROWN: 30-40. 

CRAWFORD: You’ve seen 30-40 Sharks?

BROWN: That I’ve had to get out of the water because of. 

CRAWFORD: And how many of those Sharks might you estimate or guess could have been White Pointers?

BROWN: I believe personally I’ve encountered three. 

CRAWFORD: And then there would be a category of 'maybes' and then some that were not?

BROWN: Yeah. Some were shadows. I got out of the water because I couldn’t clearly identify them. I’ve been in the water swimming with Sharks and gone "Oh, that’s a Basking Shark," you know? That’s a Sevengiller. And I’ve just carried on surfing.

CRAWFORD: Ok, So, in this region - let’s say from Karitane down to Kaka Point - that’s roughly 30 Sharks?

BROWN: Definitely. 

CRAWFORD: There are three that you are very confident were White Pointers, in addition to the incident at Possums Reef?

BROWN: Oh, no. Three counting that one. 

CRAWFORD: So, two more?

BROWN: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: What was the distribution of your effort? Did you see most of these when you were surfing or when you were surf life saving?

BROWN: All of the Sharks but one, surfing. 

CRAWFORD: And the surf life saving is in a very small section of the beach. It’s very intensive, you’re on active duty. And one of these Sharks you saw while you were on duty surf life saving?

BROWN: Yeah, at the Bill Black Memorial Belt Race. 

CRAWFORD: At a memorial for his ...

BROWN: Death. Yeah, it was a big Basking Shark. But we just saw the fin. I was out there with a guy called Matt. He and I were in the IRB doing safety, just in case someone got in trouble. They’re doing a swim just in St. Kilda, and I can remember it was a beautiful day, real calm. There was almost no surf. And I saw the fin go past the boat. I just remember I saw this little tip just like that, and I was just like "What the hell is that?" And I looked over the side and was just like "Shit!" and Matt looked over the side and was like "That’s a Shark!" and I was like "Yes it is!" And then I saw tail and went "Ah, that’s a Basking Shark."

CRAWFORD: How many Basking Sharks do you figure you might have seen? Lifetime?

BROWN: Two. One in St. Clair and that one.

CRAWFORD: And you’ve seen three White Pointers that you’re convinced of?

BROWN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What would you say are the major differences between Basking Sharks and White Pointers?

BROWN: The shape of the dorsal fin.

CRAWFORD: In terms of what?

BROWN: In terms of thickness, and it’s just a very pronounced triangle, and just the sheer mass of it. 

CRAWFORD: You’re talking about the White Pointer?

BROWN: Yeah. All the three encounters I’ve had. So. the one with the push through the water - we’re talking I’m sitting here, that wall is how close away it was in the wave.

CRAWFORD: We’re talking 10 metres?

BROWN: Yeah. And then the one at Aramoana, literally went under me.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I’m trying to reckon morphology though. How do you recognize the difference between White Pointers and Basking Sharks?

BROWN: The first thing I can go off of is just the sheer size and mass of them. All the other little ones, I can’t tell what they were because they were too small. They could have been young White Pointers, but I just didn’t get a good enough glimpse of the fin or whatever. 

CRAWFORD: But for the big animals, big Basking Sharks and big White Pointers ...

BROWN: You can just see the difference on the heads.

CRAWFORD: What about their behaviour, what were they doing when you did see them?

BROWN: Basking Sharks were slow. Big open mouth like because I got to see, like the one in the IRB, we literally were just driving right bedside, and I could have poked it with a stick you know?

CRAWFORD: With the mouth wide open? It was feeding on plankton?

BROWN: Yeah. Beautiful creature.
 
CRAWFORD: Just cruising along, wouldn’t even have a fast thought?

BROWN: [laughs]. No, that’s the perfect way to describe it. Yeah, but these other ones, just speed and power. 

CRAWFORD: Okay, so that seems to be a good distinction. We’ve talked about the Possums Reef incident. What was the next incident?

BROWN: So that’s Possums Bay there, which is Warrington. The one that went under me was at Aramoana, right there. 

CRAWFORD: Surfing?

BROWN: Yeah. Very big Shark. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when?

BROWN: Would have been when I came back - so, maybe six months after that.

CRAWFORD: 1996?

BROWN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Alright. Aramoana. Season?

BROWN: It was March, because I came back from Bali in November, and it was about late February-early March. 

CRAWFORD: So, mid to mid-late summer? And time of day?

BROWN: Night, it was after 8 pm. It was after tea, I remember it well. Four to five foot, Aramoana was six to seven foot sets, coming off of Bear’s Rock. Really big, big, pumping waves. Really pumping, really good waves. Forty guys in the water, and then I was paddling for a set off Bears. I saw it coming. I was ...

CRAWFORD: Saw what coming?

BROWN: A set of waves, and I was trying to get out to the back one, because I could see that was the better one. And then I turned, and I had paddled too far and I had just missed it. And I was like “Ah, bugger” and was just sitting out there minding my own business. And then I just turned around, and there wasn’t a single person in the water. I was out there all by myself.

CRAWFORD: How far offshore?

BROWN: From Bear's - maybe 30 metres or so, 40 metres or so. And that’s not far. I know it doesn't seem like far, but given the wave dynamics at Aramoana, that’s relatively far offshore. Because of how much draw comes off the water, you’re pushing against current. So, you can paddle your ass off, and you’re moving barely half a metre towards shore.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you’re out there. You’re surprised that all of a sudden, you’re by yourself. 

BROWN: I knew straight away. I just turned around and I was like “Shit.” I was just looking for it. “Where is it, where is it, where is it.” And then I saw it from the left, and I saw the fin, and it was coming from the Mole towards me. I could just see it because I could see the fin point on. It was probably about that thick, and it was decent. And I always look for the back fin, because that gives an indication of how big it was going to be. I had caught on to this trick that it’s roughly in the middle, that’s the back, then you know how far to the front you’ve got, and how big we’re looking at. And it was a fair way back, the back fin. And I just completely kept still, and she just went straight past me. I don’t know if it was a girl or a boy. I got to see the whole thing under water just come through. I’m very confident it was a White Pointer. I got to see the whole thing. It would have been the closest thing to grazing my board with its fin, if it tried. 

CRAWFORD: Was it holding the dorsal fin mostly out of the water or just cutting the surface?

BROWN: No, mostly under the water.

CRAWFORD: So, it submerged? 

BROWN: Yeah, it went under me. And it was well aware that I was there. It went under me and then carried on. 

CRAWFORD: What type of tail movement, what type of speed?

BROWN: It wasn’t kicking hard, it was just cruising along. But again, that one I actually got to feel the turbulence of it. And that’s when I really knew about power, because it was pushing water. I was just like “Whoa” because you can feel the wake of the water. At the start, I wasn’t sure “Was that it knocking me?” And then I realized, that was just the sheer turbulence of the Shark.

CRAWFORD: That was just the water displacement?

BROWN: Yeah. And then a wave pulled up, and I caught it. Well not perfectly, but I just took the wave and just went straight to the beach. 

CRAWFORD: And that animal, when you saw it, it was cruising, it had submerged below you?

BROWN: Yeah. I am under no illusion, that it knew exactly where I was. I don’t know if it knew what I was, but it knew there was something there because it took ...

CRAWFORD: Evasive maneuvers?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Well, not evasive. It just went past you.

BROWN: Right underneath me. 

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] Let’s go back and classify your first experience, the one you saw at Possums Reef, would that be an observation, or drive by?

BROWN: That’d be a drive by.

CRAWFORD: Do you believe that the animal was checking you out?

BROWN: No, I think ... Well ok, maybe it’s an observation then. Because it was task-focused, I believe.

CRAWFORD: It was proximate, no doubt about the proximity. But you feel the animal was busy doing something else?

BROWN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Okay, so that’s a Level 1. Really close, but a Level 1.

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: You had no reason to believe the animal responded to you in any way?

BROWN: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. With regard to the Aramoana incident, was that a Level 1, 2, 3?

BROWN: Don’t know. Because I don’t know what its history was beforehand. I remember talking about it afterwards on the beach, and everyone was pretty much just hopping in the cars. No one was saying much because everyone was like “Surf’s over,” you know? 

CRAWFORD: Do you think it was it a Level 2 drive-by? 

BROWN: It knew I was there, and it took action to go, to go under me.

CRAWFORD: But it didn’t circle?

BROWN: It could have been circling.

CRAWFORD: That’s fair. But to your knowledge, it didn’t do anything else?

BROWN: No, no.

CRAWFORD: Did your mates see anything?

BROWN: They saw, because everyone had turned to run. A lot of people were still getting to the beach at the time. That’s why I knew, because the water had been cleared. No one saw anything, because I know people who’d seen the fin, and someone had called out ‘Shark!’ I was out going for a wave, and I just didn’t hear the call. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s call that a Level 2. You have one more incident, another direct encounter. Set it up please. When was it?

BROWN: That one, four years ago.

CRAWFORD: Relatively recently?

BROWN: Yeah, absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: And where were you?

BROWN: Smaills Beach. Here, at the base of the [Otago] Peninsula. 

CRAWFORD: What were you doing?

BROWN: Surfing.

CRAWFORD: What time of year?

BROWN: January, February. 

CRAWFORD: So, middle of the summer here?

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What time of day?

BROWN: Morning, definitely. Low tide. 

CRAWFORD: What happened?

BROWN: I got knocked by something. And it was with some decent force. It pushed me off my board, and it had mass. It came up and I got a good look at it as it kicked away. Remarkable similarities to the one that swam under me at Aramoana. It really pushed up against my leg. At the equivalent to ... like if you stand next to a horse and the horse decides to move, you get knocked by the horse. You know what I mean? You don’t sort of bump each other, and the horse falls one way. You know what I mean? It weighs considerably more, and was much more powerful than me.

CRAWFORD: And it was in motion?

BROWN: Yeah. And it pushed right around. I felt it graze up, right against my legs, and it almost rubbed itself across me. 

CRAWFORD: But it was a skim? Given the ...

BROWN: It knocked me off my board. 

CRAWFORD: Right. So, you ended up in the water, off the board, after this thing had bumped you?

BROWN: Yes. And it was still rolling past me.

CRAWFORD: It was what?

BROWN: It was still ... So, I got knocked off, and it was still carrying on past. I was still tangled up with it, if you will - still sort of on the side of the damn thing.

CRAWFORD: And do you remember the tail, was it ...

BROWN: No. When I got back onto the board ... Because of how clear the day was, I got to see him heading towards the island, because I was in the middle of a bay that went off round, sort of - and there’s a Seal colony. I’m not saying that it was looking for Seals, but there’s a Seal colony on the island. And that I got to see it heading away. Again, it was just the sheer size. Because of the experience at Aramoana, it just had too many similarities that I would take it as something else. It wasn’t as big as the others - it would have been only 12-13 foot, you know? But it was still longer than me, considerably. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. 

BROWN: It’s just that sheer bloody girth. Whatever this one was, they just see to be fat buggers, they’re just barrels. 

CRAWFORD: Using the category system, this was obviously more than an observation. Do you think this was a drive-by, or do you think that this was a little bit more?

BROWN: I just think this guy was just being a little shit, like “Let’s have a wee nudge, and see what it feels like.” 

CRAWFORD: Curious, or whatever?

BROWN: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But this was not just a passing drive-by. This animal bumped you off. 

BROWN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, let’s consider the remaining 25ish Shark encounters you’ve had while surfing - some of which might have been smaller White Pointers. Where would those observations fit in - observations, drive-bys, other?

BROWN: Mostly observations. 

CRAWFORD: So you saw, but there was no interaction?

BROWN: Correct. 

CRAWFORD: Do you reckon there were any more drive-bys? Maybe?

BROWN: There were. There was one at Warrington, again when we had an IRB competition. And that was only a little fella. We’ve got those little Dolphins up there, you know? You might get two or three fins come up, and I thought, because I saw two fins, I just thought “Ah, it’s two little Dolphins again.” But then I realized it was one animal, and they’re connected. I wasn’t really worried, it was quite small. That was over there, and it just carried on. 

CRAWFORD: Any circling or interest? Any interaction like that?

BROWN: No. I’ve never come across any like that. I’ve been up at St. Clair from a lifeguard perspective, and we pulled up on the beach and heard people saying ‘Shark!’ 

CRAWFORD: Somebody saw a fin?

BROWN: Yep. I’d seen it as well, from a lifeguard perspective on the beach. We took the boat out, and we were unsure what it was, but it had no threatening behaviour. We just followed it. We sent one of the boys in a car down to Tomahawk, just to make sure. Just in case this was something.

CRAWFORD: To make sure they knew about it there?

BROWN: Yeah, yeah. That’s happened a couple times.

WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: In terms of your mates in this entire region - Karitane down to Kaka Point - did anybody else have experiences that were much different from yours? Anybody else get a Level 3 or a Level 4 with White Pointers in certain places?

BROWN: Well, the latest one, because we always hear about them, but the latest one was that down at Quinn Point. That's a surf spot - its nickname is Lobsters. It’s a surf spot. About 4-5 weeks ago now, I think I called you about it. They had what we’ll call a drive-by. Five of these surfers out, they all clearly saw a very large Shark swim through. And they very, very clearly identify it was a Shark. 

CRAWFORD: A White Pointer?

BROWN: No, they just used the word ‘Shark.’ 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Very large - it could also be a Basking Shark.

BROWN: Correct. But I don’t know if it’s a bit early for all the Basking Sharks in this cold water. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of the description of its behaviour, did they say anything about speed, anything like that?

BROWN: Well, I haven’t talked to them personally. I just know it’s come from an alert that goes out to all the surfers that goes “Hey, we’ve seen one, they’re hanging around here.

Copyright © 2017 Stefhan Brown and Steve Crawford