Scott Crosbie

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Let's start at the beginning, Scott. You were born here in Invercargill?

CROSBIE: Yes, in 1965.

CRAWFORD: At what point do you recall spending a significant amount of time around the water, New Zealand coastal water as opposed to fresh water? 

CROSBIE: Probably around 1978-79 when I first joined the Surf Life Saving club. I'd been involved in swimming, and all of our holidays we went to lakes ...

CRAWFORD: When you were on holidays, your family went inland to rivers and lakes. Was the first time you spent significant amount of time near coastal waters was when you joined Surf Life Saving? 

CROSBIE: Yes. When I joined the club, 15 to 16 years old. 

CRAWFORD: Since you were an Invercargill boy, I'm guessing it was the Oreti Beach Surf Life Saving club? 

CROSBIE: Yep. The only club in Invercargill.

CRAWFORD: What is the next closest club? 

CROSBIE: Balclutha - there’s one at Kaka Point.

CRAWFORD: Did you have swimming lessons and that type of thing as a younger kid?

CROSBIE: Yes. That's how I learned about the Surf Life Saving club, through a guy at the swimming club. There was an end-of-season breakup at the Surf Life Saving club, and I saw him taking a ski to go out for a paddle. I thought that looked like a good idea, so I found out about it and got involved. Got my lifeguard award. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of your original swimming lessons, that would have either been in pools or freshwater?

CROSBIE: Correct.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, 15-16 you get introduced to surf life saving. Was it the type of thing that you did as a volunteer to a limited extent at first? Or did you dive right in and get bitten by the surf life saving bug? 

CROSBIE: I suppose I got bitten by the bug. I really enjoyed being out there, because it's so different every time you go out. Mainly in the surf, just in that break area. That’s what I enjoyed and why I got involved. 

CRAWFORD: At that point in time, I presume you were still in school? 

CROSBIE: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: How frequently would you have been going out to the beach then? 

CROSBIE: Probably every weekend - got out a lot during the summer.

CRAWFORD: During the school year, did you spend any time at the beach?

CROSBIE: Yeah, we’d have training. And when I was getting my lifeguard award, we had training once a week and then on the weekends. Afternoons and evenings 

CRAWFORD: So, one day per week for training during the school year, and then when school broke you had eight weeks or so there? 

CROSBIE: Yeah. By that stage in life, I was either working, or had other things I needed to do. So, I was still basically doing the training on the weekends. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. One afternoon/evening through the week, and then the weekend. From what time of the year would it start?

CROSBIE: End of October we would get started, through to the end of March. 

CRAWFORD: You'd be spending the weekend, roughly 15 to 20 hours on the weekend, and maybe 4 or 5 hours on a weekday? Would that be a typical week? 

CROSBIE: Yeah, that would be about right. 

CRAWFORD: Was that fairly consistent throughout the entire surf life saving season?

CROSBIE: At different times we would do extra training. There’d be extra evenings that we’d go out and do stuff if we had an event coming up, or if we were training for competitions. 

CRAWFORD: When you first started and were getting certifications, did you have an eye towards going into competitions? 

CROSBIE: Yeah. That’s sort of what you did, that's how you got better. They were all in Dunedin or Kaka Point. There was an opportunity to go out and see a different beach. Do things a bit different.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s from age 15-16. I'm looking for the next natural break point when you changed the amount of time with surf life saving, or maybe changed locations - that type of thing. When would that have been?

CROSBIE: I moved away when I was about 20. Moved over to Australia for 18 months. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a natural break point. So, from 15 to 20 it was pretty consistent with surf life saving based out of Oreti during that period. Then Australia for 18 months. Then what? 

CROSBIE: Then I ended up in Christchurch for another 8 or 9 months. 

CRAWFORD: Were you engaged in any significant amount of time around coastal waters, when you were up north around Banks Peninsula? 

CROSBIE: No. I was out a couple times for a swim, but it was nothing significant. Didn’t join a club or anything like that. 

CRAWFORD: When did you start to spend significant time in New Zealand coastal waters again?

CROSBIE: When we came back to Invercargill.

CRAWFORD: After Christchurch? 

CROSBIE: After Christchurch, yeah. We came back down.

CRAWFORD: How old were you then? 

CROSBIE: About 23.

CRAWFORD: You came back here to a full-time job? 

CROSBIE: Yeah. I had an opportunity to start my own building firm. I took over from my Father.

CRAWFORD: So, full-time employed. Family commitments as well? 

CROSBIE: Yep. Young children as well. 

CRAWFORD: And you reconnected with Oreti Beach Surf Life Saving Club. Roughly how much time were you able to spend then, with surf life saving? 

CROSBIE: Probably similar. One night of training a week, and then the weekends. Probably not as many weekends like when I was younger. Maybe every second or third weekend, I would have spent there. We generally had patrols for the Saturday and the Sunday. So, 11:30 - came down to the beach, on the water by 12, and then pack up at 5. 

CRAWFORD: A little bit reduced in terms of amount of total time?

CROSBIE: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Did it change, in terms of your activities, when you came back? Or the same kinds of activities? 

CROSBIE: Similar. But at that point, that's when motorized boats - the IRBs came in. I did some training to learn how to drive those. 

CRAWFORD: Prior to that it was canoes? 

CROSBIE: Canoes and tubes for the rescues. Competitions with skis and boards and canoes. 

CRAWFORD: Things remained fairly consistent from then on?

CROSBIE: Pretty much, yeah. I got back involved with the committee again. I'd been involved with the committee from when I started and I kept doing it. Mainly my patrols rather than lots of others. Occasionally you'd do some extra days, because it was a good day. 

CRAWFORD: Right. So, you were advancing through the hierarchy within the surf life saving club. But the amount of time you were actually spending on or around the water ...

CROSBIE: Probably pretty consistent. 

CRAWFORD: From that point forward, were there any other breaks where you would have spent more or less time around the water? 

CROSBIE: Not really, I suppose we've done Foveaux Strait a couple of time as relays. 

CRAWFORD: What do you mean by 'done Foveaux Strait'? 

CROSBIE: We’ve crossed it. You know, with a swimming relay.

CRAWFORD: This was a special event hosted by Oretic Surf Life Saving?

CROSBIE: Yes.

CRAWFORD: How many different people would participate?

CROSBIE: The first relay, there was about thirty of us. Sometimes it was two of us in the water at a time, sometimes just one. Taking turns, swim half an hour each.

CRAWFORD: Depart from Bluff? 

CROSBIE: We had a boat round Barracouta Point. Took off from Barracouta - it's basically the shortest distance across to wherever you end up. Generally, with the tide you end up going down one way, and back up the other.

CRAWFORD: How many different times were you involved in those Foveaux Strait crossings? 

CROSBIE: We've done two relays. And I was also involved with Michael Quinlivan, when he did his solo swim. I basically sat on the surf ski beside him, and paddled while he swam.

CRAWFORD: In terms of the sequence ... Was it the two relays and then his crossing? 

CROSBIE: No, no. His solo swim was back when I was in the teens. 1985 I think it was, mid-80s when Michael swam it. [confirmed 13 February 1985]

CRAWFORD: And you were paddling on a surf ski as an escort? It was a support vessel?

CROSBIE: Yeah, there was a fishing boat and a little runaround boat. 

CRAWFORD: So, two boats and then you paddling along. Did you paddle the whole distance? 

CROSBIE: Pretty much. I got on the boat for a wee while. I was seasick on the boat getting around to Barracouta Point, because it was a bit rough at the start. I wasn't a great sailor. So I went, "If he can swim it, I can paddle it." I was pretty good at paddling, so I just stayed on the ski. 

CRAWFORD: That was the mid-80s. Do you remember what time of year it was? 

CROSBIE: February. That's the best time for it. Generally, you get the better conditions then.

CRAWFORD: And was that a successful crossing for him? 

CROSBIE: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: How long did it take? 

CROSBIE: Eight hours something - just under nine. 

CRAWFORD: And later, your club organized two swimming relays to cross Foveaux Strait? 

CROSBIE: Yeah. The first one must have been when I got back down from being away. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly what year was that? 

CROSBIE: Around 1990. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. The first relay would have been roughly 1990. Same type of departure and target arrival? 

CROSBIE: Yep. It worked well. We had a great time, and the kids really enjoyed it, and did a great effort getting across there. 

CRAWFORD: How many support vessels on that relay? 

CROSBIE: We had the catamaran, and ... we must have had a small boat. Yeah, we had a guy come with his runabout boat. And we had a support ski, with the swimmers. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was the first relay. When was the second event? 

CROSBIE: Roughly 2013

CRAWFORD: A couple of years ago. And it was the same type of relay?

CROSBIE: Except that Wayne Evans swam the whole distance on his own. So, he did a crossing under his own steam.

CRAWFORD: Concurrently with the relay?

CROSBIE: We swam with him, basically. It was initially designed as we were going to do a relay to mark the anniversary of John [van Leeuwen]’s first crossing. Once we got going, we talked to Wayne and the Foveaux Master's Swimming Club - they wanted to join in with us. Wayne had wanted to do it for a while, and then he asked us if it would be alright if he could have a go doing the whole thing. 

CRAWFORD: Was that successful for Wayne? 

CROSBIE: Yeah, that was successful. He got across. 

CRAWFORD: So, on three different occasions you were involved in crossing Foveaux Strait. One solo swim, one relay, and one combined solo-relay?

CROSBIE: That's correct. And there's another scheduled for the 1st of February. 

CRAWFORD: That's Chloe [Harris], right?

CROSBIE: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Will you be departing the same ... 

CROSBIE: I’m not sure what she wants to do. She’s talking to the skipper tomorrow. She’s talking about going from the island back this way, which is what Wayne did. 

CRAWFORD: She's going to depart Stewart Island and come north?

CROSBIE: Come back, yeah. That’s the way that Wayne went, and everyone else has gone. Because it's quicker.

CRAWFORD: Wait a minute. That means the second relay was the reverse direction? 

CROSBIE: It was, actually. The second one was a reverse relay because we started over there - we were swimming back because we were trying to coordinate with John's crossing.

CRAWFORD: You reckon that Chloe's is going to be to going from the island north? 

CROSBIE: She’s mentioned doing it that way. She had the idea that might work. Depending on which way the tides are going, and if she’s going to get pushed. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: In general, to what extent has Māori culture and knowledge contributed to your understanding of marine ecology?

CROSBIE: Very low. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember hearing anything about any type of cultural affiliation or cultural linkages with Māori culture? Did you hear about Sharks generally, or White Pointers specifically, associated with Māori? In terms of lore or legends, or areas, or place names, or anything like that?

CROSBIE: Never heard any stories or anything specifically about it. I’ve been involved with the local marae in regards to the water, but I've never talked to people about that.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Same question about how much Science culture and knowledge has affected your understanding? 

CROSBIE: Average. Just from the Discovery Channel and whatever else. 

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: What was your first recollection of hearing about or seeing a White Pointer? 

CROSBIE: I suppose the 'Jaws' movie would be the first. Not that it was an actual experience. 

CRAWFORD:  No, but that’s when it appeared on your radar screen. You would have been approximately 13 or 14? 

CROSBIE: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: In all the time that you have spent around New Zealand coastal waters, have you ever seen a White Pointer in the wild? 

CROSBIE: No, not that I’m aware of.

CRAWFORD: Have you heard about people ... people that you you’ve lived with in your community, or worked with, or in the Surf Life Saving club - any of them had sightings of these Sharks in the wild?

CROSBIE: No, not really. I mean, just basically what’s in the media. 

CRAWFORD: But in terms of local knowledge ... Where exactly is the club? Let's start with that.

CROSBIE: Oreti Beach. When I joined, two older guys left and they may have known. I've talked to other guys along the way, but we've never really talked about White Pointers a lot. 

CRAWFORD: Nobody took the young guy aside and said "By the way, at certain times, in certain places along this beach, you have to keep your eyes open for White Pointers?"

CROSBIE: No.

CRAWFORD: What about Sharks in general?

CROSBIE: Yeah. For Sharks in general, it would be "Keep the dogs out of the surf" - that was one. They seemed to think the dogs would attract Sharks for some reason. So yeah, that was something I was aware of. 

CRAWFORD: And that came from the old-timers? 

CROSBIE: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What was the reason for that?

CROSBIE: The smell of the dog would tend to attract Sharks.

CRAWFORD: I wonder if that could be a local, specific thing. The idea that smell, or the activity of splashing around, would bring in a Shark that would attack - the potential to attract them to that specific zone between the flags that the Surf Life Saving club is patrolling.

CROSBIE: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did that mean there was a general, local sentiment that it wasn’t a good idea to have dogs going in the water on either side down the beach? 

CROSBIE: Yeah. Sort of. But they didn’t necessarily make a lot of effort to do too much about it.

CRAWFORD: You didn’t have 'dog cops' running up and down the beach ...

CROSBIE: Telling people not to do it, or whatever - no. But Oreti, it is a huge beach, very long. Goes right around to Riverton. You get right round into the estuary as well.

CRAWFORD: The club's patrols, whenever they take place, are they always at the same location along Oreti Beach?

CROSBIE: Yeah. Pretty much straight out the entrance ... because you can actually drive onto the beach, which is a bit unusual for most beaches. And people, wherever they can park their car, they tend to stick by the entrance - so that’s where we set up our patrols. 

CRAWFORD: I know you're not the club historian, but how far back does the Oreti club go? 

CROSBIE: Must be 80-odd years old now. We had our 75th a while ago. 

CRAWFORD: Was it was always patrolling at that location? 

CROSBIE: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Thinking back that far, is there anything in the archives for the club, any indication that there have ever been Sharks observed by the club patrol? 

CROSBIE: Not that I’m aware of. Some of the older guys did go fishing, they took the canoes out with their lines to catch fish. I'm not sure whether they ever caught a Shark or not.

CRAWFORD: So, it certainly wasn't anything that was passed down?

CROSBIE: Not specifically.

CRAWFORD: And it's not something where the club has any newspaper clippings or local stories about harks in general, or White Pointers specifically - interacting with swimmers? 

CROSBIE: Not that I’m aware of. Only what's in the media. Generally anything like that has happened not when we have patrols on. When there were reports of someone swimming or surfing and getting bit by something, whether it be a Shark or a Seal. 

CRAWFORD: With regards to New Zealand Surf Life Saving, when you went through training as a young man, and later on - when you became part of the administration, and then in turn when you were training the kids, what kind of guidance did New Zealand Surf Life Saving have specifically with regards to Sharks? Did they provide any instruction or briefing or risk management strategies that you were aware of?

CROSBIE: Not really. It's pretty much just what the local people think. The guard talking to you, whatever they say. I don’t know that we ever had a lot of knowledge about Sharks as such. 

CRAWFORD: There wasn't anything that came out at the national level, or at the specific Oreti Beach level, with regards to club policy or any previous observations?

CROSBIE: Not that I’m aware of. There was a guy in St. Kilda surf club that had been taken by a Shark and never found ...

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to that in a second. But here at Oreti ...

CROSBIE: That's where information comes from, coming back to the club from those guys who were around at the time. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's move to local media sources or other types of information regarding Shark-Human interactions in the region. Are you aware of stories in the media which would have described White Pointers in the region - Foveaux Strait, Te Waewae, Oreti? 

CROSBIE: There have been people being bitten by something. And there has always been conjecture as to whether it was a Shark, or Seal, or what was it. Different people have had different ideas, and I’m not an expert ...

CRAWFORD: But can you recall any stories in the media that referred to something specifically as a White Pointer encounter or attack in the Foveaux Strait region? 

CROSBIE: Not that I’m aware of, no.

CRAWFORD: This is important. Because there are many people who spend time on Oreti Beach, it's immediately adjacent to Foveaux Strait - which is a focus of the work I’m doing here on White Pointers. It is very clear that there are aggregations of White Pointers in this region. Based on your experience, and what you hear from people at the Surf Life Saving patrol, if anything was happening on or around Oreti Beach ... 

CROSBIE: If somebody got bitten, or something happened, yeah - we would hear. The way Oreti is, it's actually quite hard to see fish in the water anyways, because they're spilling-type waves, and they go a long way out. And it's very hard actually to get out the back, unless you've got a boat of some sort, or a surfboard and you are a very good surfer. 

CRAWFORD: That’s important. How far do you have to go before you get out - say to the equivalent of 6 feet depth, where an adult would just be able to touch bottom? How far offshore? 

CROSBIE: 50-60 metres. It’s a fair way. Possibly even more. It’s a very slow, flat beach. It goes a long way out.

CRAWFORD: When people think about animals in general, Sharks in particular, moving into shallow water ... It's not as though Oreti has a drop-off, where it gets much deeper at once. This is a very slow, gradual beach. Is that true for the other beaches in the region? For instance, is there swimming over here at Toetoes Bay. It looks in general to be similar to Oreti.

CROSBIE: Not really, for the lagoon - it's hard to get out. Not a lot of access. I suppose you can get into the harbour there. I suppose people will swim in there ...

CRAWFORD: But not nearly as much as Oreti?

CROSBIE: No, because Oreti is so handy to the water. And Riverton is the other one, there's lots of people swimming around there.

CRAWFORD: West of there, are there other beaches that are swimming beaches?

CROSBIE: Colac Bay has lots of surfing that goes on there. And the same with Porridge.

CRAWFORD: Have you spent time in Colac or Porridge?

CROSBIE: Just the odd time, the odd day. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear anything about White Pointers over there? 

CROSBIE: No.

CRAWFORD: I wanted to get back to other clubs, partly because when you were doing your training and competitions, you mentioned travelling. I presume you travelled to the Balclutha club - so Kaka Point?

CROSBIE: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What other clubs did you visit?

CROSBIE: There’s Brighton, St. Clair, St. Kilda. And Warrington.

CRAWFORD: You would have spent some time up there, on those beaches? 

CROSBIE: Yeah. Little bits.

CRAWFORD: When you were there, for instance at Kaka Point, were Sharks ever discussed? 

CROSBIE: Not really. It's not something that life guards spend a lot of time talking about. Not to my knowledge. You talk about the surf, the boards, what you're doing, and stuff like that. Because people don’t want to bring it to the fore when they're out there doing it, because they want to do what they're doing. Or whether it's just not something that people talk about. 

CRAWFORD: Right. When you spent time up around the Otago Peninsula, that’s a little bit different in terms of when people think about Sharks in general, or White Pointers in particular. Because of the history of the place. Are you aware of the incidences, the attacks, that took place there?

CROSBIE: Yeah. There’s a plaque on the St. Kilda wharf for Bill Black who got taken by a Shark.

CRAWFORD: What do you know about that incident?

CROSBIE: Apparently there was a belt race - guys towing belts out, which is the old-style rescue and resuscitation rules. We had to tow a belt out, and grab the patient, and get pulled back to the shore by the guys with the reel to roll it up. He was in the middle of a belt race, a competition of six swimmers, and he was the second or third swimmer - so he wasn’t at one of the ends. Shark came in and basically - they couldn’t find anything. They pulled the line back in, and there was nothing on the end of it.

CRAWFORD: Do you know if they ever saw the animal?

CROSBIE: As far as I’m aware of, they never saw. Don’t know if anybody ever saw the animal, as such. I don’t think they found anything of him either.

CRAWFORD: When you first heard that, was it in your early days at surf life saving?

CROSBIE: Yeah, early times when I was going in to competition at St. Kilda, and just looking around the club at the stuff on the walls, and saw that there.

CRAWFORD: What kind of effect did it have on you? Knowing that incident had happened at that club?

CROSBIE: Well, it's a bit like getting in your car and driving home. You’re more likely to have a car accident, than to get bitten by a Shark. 

CRAWFORD: So, it didn’t really affect you, or stop you from competing?

CROSBIE: No. You think about it a little bit, and you think "Well, bad luck for him. I wonder what caused it, and what happened, and what was it." And then sort of carry on doing what you’re doing, because you enjoy it so much.

CRAWFORD: Right. Did you get the idea that there had been any kind of significant or lasting effects of the incident on the St. Kilda club members? 

CROSBIE: At the time there was, because that’s when they set up the Shark nets and all sorts of stuff. I think when they found when they were clearing the nets, there were actually more Sharks being caught swimming out than there was swimming in. I don’t think they’re even there anymore. But it did sort of trigger off a whole sort of stuff at the time. It was past by the time I got involved. Our older club members sort of knew about it.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you hear anything about events that would have taken place at any of the other clubs up on the Otago Peninsula, or any other locations up there? 

CROSBIE: Not that I’m aware of. That was the main one, the St. Kilda one. 

CRAWFORD: Did you hear of any response by the Oreti club, as a result of the attack at Dunedin?

CROSBIE: Well, we’ve got an old air raid siren at the club, I think that came along at that point. If they saw a Shark, they could crank up the handle and people could hear. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was one response. You figure that siren actually came immediately after the attack? 

CROSBIE: I’m guessing that's when it came along - due to that.

CRAWFORD: In all the time that you have been a club member, as far as you know - has that alarm ever been used? 

CROSBIE: No. We don’t even take it down to the beach now. When I first joined they had a PA with a siren on it, but we don't even have that now. We do have the boats, so we could run out to people and tell them to get out of the water

CRAWFORD: In your experience, has Oreti Beach ever been closed, or had an alarm, for Sharks? 

CROSBIE: We have had occasions where somebody comes in and says "I’ve gotten bumped by something" or they say they might have seen something. There's been one occasion where that’s happened, and we’ve gone out for a look. One day someone did come and say that to me, and I went out on the ski to have a look around, but couldn’t see anything. 

CRAWFORD: Is that Surf Life Saving policy - that if someone reports being bumped or something, that whoever is on patrol is supposed to go out and look? 

CROSBIE: I don’t suppose it's policy, but it's just "I’ll go and have a look and see what’s going on." 

CRAWFORD: Right. Do you recall ever hearing anything, after the Dunedin incident, about anybody doing surveillance to see if there were Sharks around Oreti Beach? 

CROSBIE: There was talk of airplane guys flying past occasionally to have a look. I'm not sure if it was the Stewart Island guys, or who it was. Might have been the coast guard actually - having a fly around, and just looking to see if they could see anything. 

CRAWFORD: When you are at the beach, do you ever see aircraft going over Oreti Beach? 

CROSBIE: Occasionally, if someone is just having a joy flight around. But it's not a flight path as such. The airport's up here, beside the estuary. If you look across you can see them - they're basically heading that way.

CRAWFORD: In all of your time, have you heard of anything about pilots reporting Sharks?

CROSBIE: No.

CRAWFORD: As a New Zealander, if you do think about places around the country where White Pointers have been reported to be in aggregations ... out of all of New Zealand, what places have you heard that they aggregate? 

CROSBIE: I’ve heard that they all get to the bottom of Stewart Island. That’s what I’ve always heard. Tagged Sharks that have gone all around the world to all sorts of different places, and they’ve all come back to the bottom of Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: So, you’ve picked up on some of the science research that was done. Do you know who did that research? 

CROSBIE: No.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'all around the world' - where do you mean?

CROSBIE: Like Alaska. They’ve gone through the Pacific. They’ve basically covered the globe in different tracks, and ended up back there.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: Have you heard in the media of any situations where people had seen White Pointers anywhere along Foveaux Strait? 

CROSBIE: I had a neighbour who said he was out fishing one day and saw a big Shark, he said with an eye the size of a meat plate, cruise past the boat while they were in it to check them out. It was as big as the boat, apparently. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how big was his boat? 

CROSBIE: Likely 20 feet. 

CRAWFORD: When was this? 

CROSBIE: Quite a while ago - 10 to 15 years ago, at least. 

CRAWFORD: Do you recall where? 

CROSBIE: I think out around Ruapuke somewhere, but I could be wrong.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s one example of somebody that you heard from. [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] What level of encounter do you reckon your neighbour's encounter was?

CROSBIE: That’s a Swim-By, I think. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, it sounds like it.

CROSBIE: We did have one occasion when we were swimming the Strait. I was paddling the ski, there was a girl in the water, and we saw a fish looked about 1.5 m long, not particularly big. I caught the sight of it. It went under where the swimmer was. She saw it at the same time. Then it turned and bolted, and just disappeared. She screamed and jumped on the back of the ski as quick as you could wink.

CRAWFORD: Which of the crossings was that?

CROSBIE: That was the first relay crossing - about the mid-80s. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember at what point in the crossing?

CROSBIE: About ¾ of the way across. We had been swimming, going for quite a while. 

CRAWFORD: So, on the way to White Rock Point, Saddle Point. Out in the middle of the Strait. Fish or Shark? 

CROSBIE: Could have been a Shark. But whether it was a White Pointer or Dog Shark, I wouldn't know. 

CRAWFORD: Did it have a Shark shape?

CROSBIE: I suppose I called it a fish, because that's what I told the kids while we were doing the swim, because I wanted them to keep going. [chuckles] I think it was a Shark, just a little one.

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. That's a fair depth of water out there. On any of the other crossings, any of the other relays, did you ever see - or did anyone else ever talk of seeing - any other Sharks on any of the swims?

CROSBIE: No.

CRAWFORD: Other than what you heard from your neighbour, and the little Shark during the relay, any other things you’ve heard about, in this region? Any other incidents where you’ve heard White Pointers have been suspected or observed?

CROSBIE: No, not really. Cage diving and stuff, and what’s in the media about that. I don’t even know where they do it. 

Copyright © 2019 Scott Crosbie and Steve Crawford