Russell Keen

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: When and where were you born?

KEEN:  1962. I was born in Geraldine, south of Christchurch just before you get to Timaru.

CRAWFORD: Is that a coastal community, or an inland community?

KEEN: Yeah. inland. Mainly farming. I was a mechanic, a pretty handy mechanic. Lucky to have mainly farms around us. 

CRAWFORD: When did you start spending a lot of time around the water? 

KEEN: I left school early, at fourteen and a half years old, and I got a job at Stewart Island crewing on a Crayfish boat. 

CRAWFORD: That job was the first time you were really around the sea?

KEEN: I’d never been in a dinghy, or anywhere near water. Swimming pool a couple of times - that was about it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was your connection with Stewart Island? 

KEEN: I used to not go to school very often. I’d look after old people’s lawns and gardens and things. So, through a contact of that, a friend got me the job at Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: So, as a teenager, you were walking into your first full-time job. And it was at sea?

KEEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Was it based out of Halfmoon Bay? Someplace else?

KEEN: Yeah, out of Halfmoon Bay. 

CRAWFORD: When you started on the Cray boat, what kind of things did you do?

KEEN: I started off crewing on-deck. Stringing up bait, and lifting Crayfish pots. 

CRAWFORD: Was that a split Crayfish-Cod operation, or strictly Crayfish? 

KEEN: Strictly Crayfish at the time. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Based out of Halfmoon Bay, but where was the Crayfishing taking place?

KEEN: Lords River, which is down on the corner here. We used to go away for three, four, five days at a time. And then back to Halfmoon Bay. We’d steam down to fish for three to five days, and then steam back. In those days, we tailed Crayfish, and froze them onboard the vessel.

CRAWFORD: That changed later with the regulations allowing live capture?

KEEN: More for marketing reasons. They could get more for the Crayfish alive. Most of the Crayfish to America in those days. Now of course, it goes to China, Japan, Hong Kong, you know?

CRAWFORD: Ok. Was the Crayfishing immediately around the mouth of Lords River, or spread out over a broader region?

KEEN: This whole region here, yeah.

CRAWFORD: In amongst the Eastern Titi Islands as well?

KEEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: How long did you have that Crayfishing job for?

KEEN: It’d be about two years, maybe three years. And that was seasonal work.

CRAWFORD: When was the season?

KEEN: In those days, we’d fish up to Christmas. So, that’d be four, five months prior to Christmas.

CRAWFORD: Start around September, and then go to the end of December?

KEEN: Roughly - give or take. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What were you doing in the off-season?

KEEN: Anything I could. A bit of light engineering, fixing stuff for people, mowing lawns, I did the odd bit of Codding for other boats - just crewing.

CRAWFORD: Codpotting?

KEEN: Potting, yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you were Codpotting, or when you were Crayfising for that matter, what size boats were you on?

KEEN: About forty-foot boats, in that sort of time period. Boats have got bigger as times have gone on, but the majority of boats were a mixture of wooden boats and so forth. 

CRAWFORD: When you were Codding, was potting the primary fishing technique? Did you do any setnetting? 

KEEN: No, I didn’t go setnetting. I didn’t do any longlining or trawling. Nothing like that. You set the odd net when you’re Crayfishing - for bait. It was pretty easy. Nice and fresh bait appears to be better than bought frozen bait. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In general, when you were Codpotting, were those day-trips that you were going out with as well?

KEEN: Yes. For the Codding it was day-tripping, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Which means pretty much northeast of Stewart Island?

KEEN: Yeah, and through Foveaux Strait as well.

CRAWFORD: So, fishing out among the Northern Titi Islands, and in the Strait - as well as along the Stewart Island shoreline - depending on conditions?

KEEN: Yep. And then managed to get a job as dinghy-boy for a couple of Pāua divers.

CRAWFORD: How old were you then? 

KEEN: I’d be eighteen, nineteen - something around there, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: You were dinghy-boy, surface crew while they were free-diving. Was this two divers per dinghy?

KEEN: Yeah. Sometimes one, a lot of the time two. Two divers, one dinghy-boy. 

CRAWFORD: What was your major responsibility as dinghy-boy? 

KEEN: Measuring the Pāua, making sure they were adequate size. 

CRAWFORD: Because otherwise they have to be returned?

KEEN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Was it a slot size, or a minimum size, or what?

KEEN: One hundred and twenty-five millimetres, used to be overall.

CRAWFORD: They had to be larger than that? 

KEEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Describe those two- or three-man Pāua operations for me, please.

KEEN: The divers would do possibly two or three dives before their bags were full. Forty, fifty fish in a bag. That's about the size - it really is a preference about how much fish in the bag, before they unloaded it. Those days a Pāua was really easy to get. So, you could run a bigger bag, and not too many dives - you know? 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. Your Pāua operations included the Lords River area. Where would your other operations be located around the Island?

KEEN: We worked the whole of Stewart Island.

CRAWFORD: All the way around the coast? 

KEEN: Yep. A whole lot mainly the back of the Island, so the southwest side of the island. More or less from Mason Bay, the islands, right around to Halfmoon Bay - that would be eighty percent of our fishing. When it's a norwest [wind], you go south. So, Lords River down to Pegasus Bay down the bottom end. And the islands were very productive in those days as well. So, some days we’d just go out to the islands.

CRAWFORD: The decision of where you were going to fish on any given day - that was going to be a wind-related decision?

KEEN: Wind and roll, probably thirty days a year. You can work around the back for the whole year. 

CRAWFORD: In behind Codfish Island, round Hellfire?

KEEN: Yeah. Hellfire, Mason’s. This is Mason’s here of course. So, Mason’s Island. You didn’t need to go very far in those days to get a good load. A good load would be two tonne for one diver for the day. 

CRAWFORD: Wow, ok. That would be for a two- or three-day-trip? 

KEEN: No. Just a one-day-trip. You’re on a twenty-foot boat for the day. You’re just doing day-trips, when you’re Pāua diving.

CRAWFORD: You don’t have a hut, or anything - you just get out there, you get your Pāuas, you get back in?

KEEN: Yeah. Because in those days, you’d fill your boat up. It was a twenty-foot Viscount It could only carry two thousand, one hundred and eighteen kilos. That was the top load.

CRAWFORD: Right. How long did you work as dinghy-boy, roughly?

KEEN: Before I started working for myself. It would have to be five to eight years - something like that, I’d imagine. 

CRAWFORD: You were mid-twenties when you started working for yourself? 

KEEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Did you buy a boat?

KEEN: Bought a wrecked boat, and rebuilt it. 

CRAWFORD: You fixed her up and sailed her?

KEEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: How big?

KEEN: About sixteen feet, seventeen feet - something like that. It’s got two ninety [horsepower] Mariners on it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’re getting up to the 1980s. Was there quota for Pāua at that point?

KEEN: No. You bought the license for a hundred dollars off the Government, and that allowed you to catch one tonne per week per license.

CRAWFORD: How many licenses did you start with?

KEEN: I only bought one license.

CRAWFORD: So, you were fishing under that system of one tonne per week?

KEEN: Yep. Only for a short time. Then the quotas came into it. 

CRAWFORD: You started just pre-quota. Was there any restriction on where or when?

KEEN: No. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember when the quotas came in?

KEEN: 1987. It wasn’t quite enough. The quota was based on three consecutive years that they’d pick out of a hat. And you got an average of those.

CRAWFORD: And you were just starting out - just ramping up?

KEEN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you appeal your quota? 

KEEN: No. We possibly could have, but what the hell.

CRAWFORD: Who’s we?

KEEN: Other people in the industry as well. What happened was, in those days we went out and caught it and landed it direct to the companies, so when it was recorded it went against the company’s record as them landing it. So they got the quota allocation.

CRAWFORD: Looking back you probably would have done it differently?

KEEN: No, not really. Because the quota was already handed out. Now, some people had appealed, and got that quota. That meant that quota was given out twice. So, in my eyes it was a relatively new fishery anyway. And the people in the fishery said they agreed - if a quota system ever came in, it would have to be cut fifty percent to survive with long-term sustainability.

CRAWFORD: They figured that using that system at startup, it was going to be over allocated?

KEEN: Yes. So using the system straight away is going to be not sustainable because the fishery was based on a brand new fishery. Even worse than that, when people appealed and the quota was already given out - it was given out twice. So instead, as an example, I can’t remember the exact tonnes, but say it was five hundred tonne - all six hundred and fifty tonne got handed out because of all the appeals and appeals and appeals. Those people got quite a fright because they had the flu and those people who got their boats taken off them for selling too many Crayfish and those people. And they appealed and got quota, which was totally wrong, but they hadn’t thought the system through.

CRAWFORD: So there you are as a startup  - twenty five year old. You had your one tonne per week - then when the quota comes in ...

KEEN: I’d start buying quota.

CRAWFORD: Previously allocated, rather than new quota?

KEEN: Previously allocated somewhere else, because a lot of people thought “Oh well. A lot of fishermen had nothing, and then there were millionaires because they got all this quota given to them.” And the reason it was worth something was the government agreed to give half the fisheries to the Māoris for the entitlement.

CRAWFORD: This was the Ngāi Tahu settlement?

KEEN: Yep. Everybody knew straight away that it had to be worth some money, because the government had to buy fifty percent of the quota off the people who had caught it to give to the Māoris. The quota only covered two percent, based on the figures they had. So then they took two percent off the quota, and that ended up selling for about ten thousand dollars a tonne. So it worked out twelve thousand dollars a tonne, because of the two percent cut.

CRAWFORD: You, as a young business man - the quotas come in. How do you respond? What did you do?

KEEN: I started buying quota.

CRAWFORD: How much?

KEEN: Just a tonne here and there at a time,

CRAWFORD: Incremental as you can afford? As it became available?

KEEN: Yeah. I bought and sold. What I’d done to get the income is - I’d buy a tonne, get the income from it, sell it at a higher profit, then buy another tonne, catch it, and I’d keep going on and doing that. I built myself up. It's a bit like selling a car - there's always someone who’ll pay more for it than you, so you’re going to buy cheap and make a deal.

CRAWFORD: Buy low, sell high?

KEEN: Yeah. So you buy cheap. Catch it, sell it for more.

CRAWFORD: Throughout this time were you doing anything other than Pāua diving?

KEEN: I was Crayfishing with other people as well.

CRAWFORD: In terms of the time split between Crayfishing and Pāua diving ...

KEEN: Six months each.

CRAWFORD: So, 50:50?

KEEN: Yeah, roughly. 

CRAWFORD: Was the fifty percent Crayfishing in the same places as Pāua diving?

KEEN: No. We were working the Snares by this stage, which is not even on this map. That’s way, way south. 

CRAWFORD: The Snares. And down towards the Aucklands as well?

KEEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Why down there?

KEEN: Because the person I was fishing for had an experimental license for that area so that was a bit of a ... It was an opportunity to fish somewhere else, and possibly a better wage than what I was getting.

CRAWFORD: You were crewing?

KEEN: Yes, I was crewing. Only for a year or so. 

CRAWFORD: And that was a bigger boat?

KEEN: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Forty-footer?

KEEN: It would be forty-five maybe. 

CRAWFORD: But able to handle being offshore for longer. Those would be week-long, two-week-long trips? 

KEEN: Yes. Up to a month was our longest trip.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s Crayfishing. And where around Stewart Island when you Crayfishing were Crayfishing? 

KEEN: Just the Lords River area originally. And the Snares. I think I might’ve fished for that person for around nine months, and then I got another job Crayfishing working Southwest Cape, and I did many years there. 

CRAWFORD: Around five?

KEEN: Yeah, around about five years. I’ve always Crayfished through starting Pāua diving, and then working for myself. And then I chose to carry on working for myself around Pāua diving. 

CRAWFORD:  Full-time? 

KEEN: Full-time.

CRAWFORD:  At that point, when your business solidified, approximately what kind of quota did you have for Pāua?

KEEN: I was leasing it, sometime buying. I think I had as high as forty tonne. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s a big operation. 

KEEN: We’re doing a lot. 

CRAWFORD: Two people?

KEEN: Yeah, two people most of the time. 

CRAWFORD: And still in relatively small boats. 

KEEN: We took a forty-foot boat, and we fished the west coast as well. When that happened, we started fishing the west coast. 

CRAWFORD: At the peak then what, specifically around coastal Stewart Island, what regions were you fishing for Pāua?

KEEN: We were fishing the whole lot. Wherever the weather suited us, we were there.

CRAWFORD: Weren't there any regional restrictions for Pāua quota?

KEEN: Pāua 5A is west coast [Fiordland], Pāua 5B is Stewart Island, and Pāua 5D is Dunedin area. 

CRAWFORD: So, if you wanted to go in one region and it was favourable for weather you had quota for that region - that kind of thing?

KEEN: Yeah, pretty much. Getting whatever quota, wherever I could. Either buying it or leasing it.

CRAWFORD: And you were full time Pāua, all around the island, forty tonne per year.

KEEN: Was a good year, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: How long through the year did that run? 

KEEN: Oh, you take all year to do that, because the weather doesn’t allow.

CRAWFORD: That goes from when you were probably around thirty years old?

KEEN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: From thirty till when? 

KEEN: Well it scaled down a bit. It was getting harder to get. And I sold my big boat, because there was less money in it. We were getting paid less to do it. The quota was worth more, so we scaled back down, and bought a twenty-foot boat again. Expenses were getting higher and higher.

CRAWFORD: When was that roughly? When you got smaller?

KEEN: Have to work backwards on this one. I must’ve been forty, I suppose. Could have been ten years ago or so.

CRAWFORD: Are you still in that scaled back kind of operation right now?

KEEN: Practically giving the Pāua diving up, because there's no money in it or profit in it at this stage. I’m back to a fifty-three foot boat now Crayfishing.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When did you get the big Cray boat? 

KEEN: Five years ago. 

CRAWFORD: So, you’ve got a lifetime of experience Pāua diving, and then you go back to Crayfishing? Primarily Crayfishing or some Codpotting as well?

KEEN: No, just Crayfishing. Been Crayfishing for four years, so we’re coming to the fifth season of Crayfishing.

CRAWFORD: And what's your current season for Crayfishing? 

KEEN: Same again. We take all year to catch it, because peak of sales for instance at Chinese New Year - that's when we get the most. 

CRAWFORD: And roughly where do you go Crayfishing now?

KEEN: We’ve done two years out of Riverton, and worked up this coast here to Big River. 

CRAWFORD: Is Big River just before the Fiordland, just past Long Point? 

KEEN: Yeah, just up past here.

CRAWFORD: So, the western end of Southland - before you get to Fiordland. 

KEEN: Yeah. I keep my boat in Riverton. 

CRAWFORD: Where do you start fishing?

KEEN: We start fishing at Sand Hill. This point here is called Sand Hill. We fish from Sand Hill to Big River, and we stay in Te Whata  - they call it Te Whata here. It might be called something else on the map.

CRAWFORD: Port Craig?

KEEN: Port Craig.

CRAWFORD: So, this region then. I haven’t heard you refer to this region - was this new for you? Fishing up here?

KEEN: I Pāua dived it in the earlier days, with other people and in my first boat. But it was new to me for Crayfishing.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Does that bring us up to date with your history around New Zealand coastal waters?

KEEN: Yep.

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: To what extent has Māori culture and knowledge had on your thinking about the world in general, but especially about the marine ecosystem and maybe Sharks in particular?

KEEN: Very low. Practically nothing that I know, what I know now. Practically none of that has come from the Māori. 

CRAWFORD: Same question, but now from the Science side. How much has that culture and knowledge contributed to your knowledge of the marine ecosystem?

KEEN: Probably eighty percent of what I know was from Science. Just from what I’ve been asked, and what I’ve been told. They’ve gone out and done the research ...

CRAWFORD: Who's they?

KEEN: Kina [Scollay] was one of them, and the DOC [Department of Conservation] boat in general, the people that have hired the DOC boat. I think there's a couple of different groups gone out and tagged and so forth.

CRAWFORD: Do you know any of these Science people personally? 

KEEN: Only Kina really. And his mate who's done the research as well.

CRAWFORD: Clinton [Duffy, DOC]?

KEEN: Clinton, yep. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever talked to Clinton?

KEEN: Yes, in general. They had a talk at the Halfmoon Bay hall, and they gave names to the Sharks, and they told us how many they’ve tagged. They showed us on maps where they've travelled, that sort of thing. That’s what I’ve learned on the Science side from the scientists, or from the researchers. 

CRAWFORD: If you were to summarize some of the most important things you've learned from Science about the White Pointers that you didn’t know before ...

KEEN: How far they travel.

CRAWFORD: Generally, what did you learn about that? 

KEEN: Same Sharks do similar things ever year. They go on some routes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, individual Sharks have a consistency in behaviour. You also said something about distance travelled. Where to?

KEEN: Some are hanging around New Zealand, and some are going offshore.

CRAWFORD: How far? Any idea?

KEEN: I can’t remember.

CRAWFORD: Would you say that was a surprise? That prior to hearing from the scientists, you would have thought that these animals were kind of ...

KEEN: More local. I would have thought. I mean, New Zealand local, rather than just here [Foveaux Strait] local.

CRAWFORD: Anything else you remember from those presentations, or from what the scientists said? 

KEEN: Apart from tagging and GPSing? No.

CRAWFORD: Some people have said that the photo identification research was bringing up new ideas about the White Pointers.

KEEN: Individuals, yeah. So that does surprise me as well. How many Sharks are actually around. 

CRAWFORD: What kinds of things did you learn about that? 

KEEN: I reckon six to ten living around the vicinity of Stewart Island wouldn’t be a surprise. 

CRAWFORD: What about Paterson Inlet? Do you remember hearing anything about the work the scientists did using their hydroaccoustic pingers? 

KEEN: Yeah, they had some at the Neck and Bench Island.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any of the Science knowledge that was kind of coming from that research? 

KEEN: Only word of mouth that there was quite a lot of movement. Like the corner of the Neck. Never been sighted, but lots of pings there. Bench Island wouldn’t be a surprise, because they’ve been seen there. I think it was the southeast corner of Beach Island, I think the pinger was there. That wouldn’t be a surprise to anybody. The one at the corner of the Neck going into the [Paterson] Inlet - that was certainly a surprise.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: Now we're going to switch into what you know about the White Pointers. You were fifteen years old when you got to Stewart Island. Even before that had you heard of White Pointers at all?

KEEN: No. I may have heard of them, but they didn’t mean anything to me, and I didn’t take any interest in them. 

CRAWFORD: When you got to the island, and you were working in a fishing job, did anybody take you aside and say "You need to know that these Sharks are out there"? 

KEEN: No. It was never really mentioned, actually. The only time it was ever talked about was the matter if one was caught in a net. You’d set bait nets for Crayfish bait, and occasionally you would catch one. Or other people would catch them.

CRAWFORD: When was the first time you remember hearing about someone getting a White Pointer caught up in their net?

KEEN: It would be pretty much the first couple of years being on the island, so 16-17 years old. Starting to be aware of these White Pointers caught in nets, and so forth. 

CRAWFORD: Anything in terms of White Pointers specifically in Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay? 

KEEN: Yeah, it was a concern to some people. They were in Halfmoon Bay, and nets were set specifically to catch them. To protect swimmers and kids, and so forth.

CRAWFORD: I’ve been told that’s just the way it was, back in the day.

KEEN: Yes, definitely.

CRAWFORD: And it was commonly accepted - a community-based response? 

KEEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: People just kept an eye out, and if they saw a White Pointer in the bay - the Shark nets went out?

KEEN: Generally. No one targeted them unless they are inside the bay. If they were in Horseshoe Bay or Halfmoon Bay, they were seen as a risk, and then they were targeted by nets being set.

CRAWFORD: My understanding is that these were nets that were configured specifically to catch big Sharks. 

KEEN: Yeah. It was a bit of a mixture. You could catch them in a bait net, but they’d tangle themselves up by accident. That always happened. 

CRAWFORD: I heard that at least some of the nets that went out, they were only used for the big Sharks. 

KEEN: Yes. And the one set in Halfmoon Bay and Horseshoe Bay were definitely targeting White Pointers. They were good strong nets.

CRAWFORD: So that was 1975-ish. You were working, fishing in the region. Do you remember ever seeing any White Pointers in either of those two bays? 

KEEN: Not live ones, no. Not personally myself, not live.

CRAWFORD: When the Shark nets went out, did you hear about who saw them, or how they saw them?

KEEN: Yeah, definitely. It was the talk of the town.

CRAWFORD: Would there have been somebody coming in or out of the bays, and they happen to see the Sharks - and then word travels? 

KEEN: Following boats and that sort of thing. Possibly if they were Codding, and they were cleaning fish as they were coming, the White Pointers may have followed them in. 

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to that specifically in a bit. But you never actually did see any White Pointers in the bays?

KEEN: No.

CRAWFORD: You definitely heard about them, because word moved rapidly. Did you get the sense that the Shark nets were pretty effective? That if there was a Shark seen, there was a Shark caught? 

KEEN: No, there was a lot that got away. There was a lot of holes in the nets. They weren’t always caught. 

CRAWFORD: Holes caused by the Sharks?

KEEN: Oh, they’ll just go straight through them. 

CRAWFORD: Not that these were poorly maintained nets, they were ...

KEEN: No, they were perfectly good nets. 

CRAWFORD: The White Pointers just did a number on them?

KEEN: Yeah, definitely. 

CRAWFORD: You reckon more Sharks got away than were caught? 

KEEN: It could go on for months, trying to catch them before you did. And in the meantime, repairing nets and so forth that were destroyed.

CRAWFORD: At an expense too. Did you get the sense that if there was a Shark in the bay - that if it wasn’t caught, it was still around the next week? Would it hang around that region?

KEEN: General knowledge told you that they come through at certain times of the year. If you were a Pāua diver, and you worked for a Pāua diver, which I did in those days - around Christmas time, you didn’t dive where Seal colonies were.

CRAWFORD: Where was that?

KEEN: That was Bench Island and Jacky Lee, Edwards. A lot of the Muttonbird [Titi] Islands outside of Halfmoon Bay - that was a regular place where if they were seen, that's where they were seen.

CRAWFORD: This is good, because when you talk about general knowledge, or general rules-of-thumb, those are important because it's shared knowledge within the community.

KEEN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you get the sense that individual animals maybe had a curiosity or a preference to be in the bays? Or were they strays that happened to come in, and then they were gone?

KEEN: From what I know now, I think they were individuals. They were loners, they would have done their own thing, and went to their own patches. The sightings would be of the same Shark, we would be led to believe.

CRAWFORD: Somebody might have seen a particular scarring pattern, something like that?

KEEN: Yeah. Similar size, similar look.

CRAWFORD: There are two important things in what you said right there. Loners, and then the general idea that it appeared to be the same Shark. It wasn’t just another random Shark - it was that same Shark. This idea about being loners - if one animal is perceived as being a bit of a loner - are other White Pointers not so much loners? 

KEEN: Well they reckon if you see one, there's always two - they say that. And quite often if one’s seen, there is another one seen. If there’s one caught, you will catch two in a lot of cases. They appear to work together. So, you'll have two doing their own thing and you might have sightings of others at a similar time, by different people - so you have a group. It may be seen at Bench Island, and yet you’ll see maybe one maybe two in Halfmoon Bay at the same time - so they’re different Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Right. Some of them are loners, for at least some of the time. And some of them are more social, in the sense of pairs or maybe even bigger groups. Were the loners the exception? Or were they typical?

KEEN: I think the loners are more adventurous. They’re seen in more places. You might see them in Halfmoon Bay, you might see them in Horseshoe, it might even go up [Paterson] Inlet for a bit.

CRAWFORD: You’re the first person to even say anything about that. These adventurous loners, were they different in any way? Were they big or small, were they male or female, anything like that?

KEEN: Not that I can remember, they were just ...

CRAWFORD: Individual, loners. 

KEEN: Yeah. They were just like Humans. Some people are just more adventurous than others.

CRAWFORD: But it could have been a young Shark kind of thing, or maybe the older Sharks are more adventurous? Anything like that, at least as far as you know?

KEEN: No. As far as I know there's no pattern that you could draw to it. 

CRAWFORD: When was the last time you heard about the Shark nets being deployed? When did they stop doing that? When legal protection came in for the White Pointers?

KEEN: No, well before then. I can’t remember. I don’t think they’ve set one for the last twenty years in Halfmoon Bay.

CRAWFORD: Not set because there were no Sharks, or not set because of some other reason? 

KEEN: No sightings, I imagine. No sightings within Halfmoon Bay and so forth.

CRAWFORD: So, no need to deploy the nets?

KEEN: No risk, yeah. No need to. 

CRAWFORD: This is a difficult question, but from your memory, roughly how many times do you think the nets went out? How many times would you have remembered? 

KEEN: In my lifetime?

CRAWFORD: Yeah. Like less than five, five to ten, ten to twenty - what do you figure? 

KEEN: Five to ten, maybe. In that period.

CRAWFORD: And you already said before that a bunch of them wouldn’t have caught anything.

KEEN: Yeah. At times they caught nothing - definitely.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any specific instances in the Bays where the Sharks were approaching, harassing, coming in way too close, doing anything unusual?

KEEN: I hadn’t witnessed anything myself, but Dead Man's - which is a wee bay on your right-hand side as you steam into Halfmoon Bay - was a common place where boats cleaned their catch.

CRAWFORD: Codpotters? 

KEEN: Codpotters. And in the earlier days of tailing Crayfish, you would anchor that bay and tail your Crayfish over the side. So, there’d be more sightings there on the whole, than anywhere.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that was?

KEEN: Possibly because you’re feeding them. The food chain. They’re coming in to eat the scraps.

CRAWFORD: Well that’s extremely important. This has come up with a bunch of other people. There are actually two things maybe going on. You can think of it in one sense as berleying, so there's blood and bits they can’t really eat. But if you're Codpotting, for instance, you have the frames going over the side ...

KEEN: I think the White Pointers have possibly followed boats some. Several different boats at that time Codding. They’re all cleaning in a similar place. And my thoughts are they are just lured to go there because there's food there. If there’s a boat noise there, there’s food there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’ll get to following behaviour and the boat noises in a bit. But what you’re saying is, it’s not just an attraction to the place. You think that the Sharks are coming in to eat the frames?

KEEN: Yeah. Definitely.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that? As opposed to the Sharks just being attracted to the site?

KEEN: Well, the frames are disappearing from that site with very little tide. Cod fishermen have been filleting, and the White Pointers are eating the frames while they’re cleaning their fish.

CRAWFORD: How do you know that?

KEEN: From people who have told me. People that are actually Codding.

CRAWFORD: They’d be anchored or drifting?

KEEN: A lot of the time ... there's a moorings, and you’d get a hook on the moorings. So, you're in the same place. They're flicking the frames over the side, the Sharks are hanging around your boat, and they’re eating them as you’re flicking them over the side. 

CRAWFORD: Do you have any recollection of two or three White Pointers coming in close to Oban on a regular basis - and then the nets going out and catching two? Lots of people down on the wharf to see them hung up?

KEEN: No, I don’t recall that.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Getting back to Deadman’s Bay, you were thinking that the White Pointers were actually scavenging. You've got apex predators who are at the top of the food chain, and here they are cleaning up the garbage behind the Codpotting boats.

KEEN: Easy food.

CRAWFORD: Easy food. Have you yourself ever seen Sharks eating scraps or frames or anything like that? 

KEEN: No. Would be down Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: When you Codpotted, was it normal for the boats that you were working on to go to Deadman’s Bay? 

KEEN: On the boat I Codded on, we cleaned all day, and we were cleaned up by the time we got in. It was normally the single-handed boats ... so, guys that fished by themselves and never cleaned fish during the day - they may have cleaned some, but their last round they cleaned up at the end of the day on a moorings. 

CRAWFORD: When you were cleaning, would it be the case that you put the boat on autopilot and then start cleaning fish as you were going along, or what?

KEEN: The boats I worked on were two crew, so one was always at the wheel, steaming - and one was doing the deck work.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember, under those circumstances, ever seeing Sharks following as you were cleaning.

KEEN: No, I never did. 

CRAWFORD: But I realize it’s not really a fair question - because people are busy. You're busy doing stuff at the time.

KEEN: And we're not looking over the side. We don’t even look over the side. 

CRAWFORD: It would have to be something close and really obvious for you to have seen anything. Ok. But it leads back to this idea about Sharks following boats. Do you think that White Pointers follow boats under any conditions? 

KEEN: Personally, I think the noise of a vessel - they are attracted by the noise of a vessel.

CRAWFORD: What makes you think that? 

KEEN: For instance, the tourist boats ... like just the average fizz boat or the average tourist coming over and having a play, or a handline. And just stopping, and White Pointers being there. 

CRAWFORD: Where? In a particular region or all over?

KEEN: It’s quite regular now. Around the islands outside of Halfmoon Bay - the Muttonbird Islands. 

CRAWFORD: It’s common now. Was it common back in the day, when you were a young man? 

KEEN: No. You didn’t hear about it as much. If they were there, you certainly didn't hear it as much. But it is more common now.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s focus on the tourist boats, the recreational fishermen and boaters in amongst the islands. Anyplace else but the Titi Islands that you've ever heard that White Pointers are following boats?

KEEN: In the early days, inside Ruggedy, it was a common place where they were sighted. Inside East Ruggedy. Around the back - Shark Island, Square Bay, down this region here. I’ve actually sighted one ... I was in the water Pāua diving, and one come up to me. 

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to that. But was there following going on in these cases?

KEEN: Tank diving for Crayfish in the early days, from some people I knew - seen a Seal bit in half, and then seen what bit it in half. It was a White Pointer.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, we’ll get to those observations too. I’m a dog with a bone here - I’m still thinking about following behaviour. Some people say they follow boats, some people say they don’t. I’m wondering what you think.

KEEN: I think they definitely follow.

CRAWFORD: What have you or other people seen that would make you think that the animals are following?

KEEN: I suppose it's because they’re in the same place as the boats are. Were they just there when the boat pulled up, or have they been following?

CRAWFORD: Let's talk about the Titi Islands. You have a special kind of experience, because you were working in that region prior to the cage tour diving operations. Now I want to focus on that region - but prior to the cage tour operations, ok? 

KEEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: I think you said something before that there was a period of time that Pāua divers just didn’t go over to the Titi Islands?

KEEN: The two guys I started dinghy-boying for, Pāua diving ... In respect of White Pointers, or themselves - whichever way you’d like to put it - at certain times of year, like at Bench Island and Edwards - pretty much Bunkers, Edwards, Te Maramas ... you didn’t go there. The Seal pups were there. There's a big group on Bench Island especially, of Seals. And Te Maramas, out the back here - that’s about the second biggest group of Seals. They’ve all got Seals on them, and lots of them.

CRAWFORD: And they did back in the day? 

KEEN: Yes. There’s always been big groups of Seals in those same places.

CRAWFORD: Pupping grounds? Pupping is when? 

KEEN: Oh, I’d only be guessing. About a month or so before Christmas, and a couple months after Christmas. I was taught not to dive around the [Titi] Islands because of White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: Was it because of the pupping specifically? Or was it just the general abundance of Seals?

KEEN: Personally, I think - the White Pointers are coming through, it’s part of their food chain at that time in the year. Easy pickings. You’ll see sightings of Killer Whales as well at a similar time come through.

CRAWFORD: I think you are the first person who has mentioned anything about Killer Whales. Tell me about them. Where are they seen? When are they seen? 

KEEN: When did I see them? They are seen on a regular basis at a similar time of the year. 

CRAWFORD: Around Christmas time?

KEEN: Before Christmas. I’m just kind of taking a stab at it. Someone like Colin Hopkins would give you a better idea.

CRAWFORD: Colin’s agreed to talk to me, which is great.

KEEN: Colin is very accurate. I worked for Colin for a very long time. And we would see Killer Whales while I fished with him here on South West Cape, and I fished with him at Ruggedy, and we fished the southeast. Colin will give you accurate times. His knowledge of Stewart Island would be more than most. He would tell you when the Killer Whales come through, as well. And Basking Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Alright. These Killer Whales - why do you think they are coming through the region? 

KEEN: They’re coming through on the same line as the White Pointers, and everything else. I would think it's for the same the reason. It's the food chain. 

CRAWFORD: When you say 'the line' - do you mean the Sharks are coming in from the eastern side? 

KEEN: They definitely appear to come up the eastward, towards Bench Island, when I’ve ever seen them. They’re coming along that line. 

CRAWFORD: You see them here first, then you see them there?

KEEN: Yeah, there’s sightings along here. I was in the water by myself one day, and the dinghy boy said "Oh, look at all these Dolphins coming up!" Like possibly fifty, sixty - something like that. "Oh, wow! This is cool!" When they got right up to me - going around and around me - they were Killer Whales. Big black things, with white spots. And they just went around and around me, and then buggered off. I stayed in the water because I had no time to react. By the time I knew what they were, they were gone. 

CRAWFORD: How many times have you seen Killer Whales? How many different occasions? 

KEEN: That’s the only time I’ve ever seen them - when I was in the water that time. Half a dozen times prior, from going up and down, we’ve seen them. 

CRAWFORD: Other people have seen them too? 

KEEN: Oh, definitely.

CRAWFORD: This is a thing. 

KEEN: It’s not uncommon.

CRAWFORD: Do the Killer Whales hang around the region, or are they moving through?

KEEN: I think they’re moving through. You would only see them for one or two days. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. And probably word travels?

KEEN: Well, other fishermen way down the shore have seen them, and then I've seen them half an hour later, and someone else has seen them. So, they’re pretty much just going through.

CRAWFORD: Anybody have any observation of interaction between the Killer Whales and the White Pointers? 

KEEN: Not that I know of, no. But, they’re definitely around the same area, at similar times.

CRAWFORD: You also mentioned Basking Sharks. Where in this general region have you or others seen Basking Sharks?

KEEN: The Saddle would be a common place for them to feed. They seem to go along that shore with their mouth open - feeding. And the Ruggedys, the Ruggedy Passage as such, which is in here. Colin Hopkins would definitely tell you times and dates where we have seen them. I’ve been with him when he’s seen them. Generally, other fishermen in Bluff have seen them through the Ruggedys as well. It’s a common place where they’ll stay, hang around the passage. It’s a very high tidal place. And a lot of food, obviously. 

CRAWFORD: Where else?

KEEN: They would be the two main places, that I could remember.

CRAWFORD: Anyplace along the other side of the Foveaux Strait, or in the Straits themselves? 

KEEN: No, not Basking Sharks. I’ve seen Whales and stuff up there.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, how many times have you seen Basking Sharks in the wild?

KEEN: Three, four times at least. 

CRAWFORD: You have seen both Basking Sharks and White Pointers - what are the biggest distinctions between the two of them? What are the things that are very clearly different between them?

KEEN: The fin, for starters. The Basking Shark is lazy, and flops over a lot of the time. It’s a different shape and different style. They're normally just cruising on the surface, slowly feeding with their mouth open.

CRAWFORD: Are they typically at the surface?

KEEN: Just on, and just under. 

CRAWFORD: And when they're feeding, their jaw just drops down and they’ve got this huge gape.

KEEN: It’s very obvious what they are, once you’ve seen them.

CRAWFORD: What about differences in body shape or colour? 

KEEN: Yeah, the body - big, of course.

CRAWFORD: Maximum bigger than the White Pointers? 

KEEN: Yeah, bigger and lazier.

CRAWFORD: If you were thinking about shape, what differences between the two?

KEEN: Totally different shape. I have got a book that I normally keep on the boat ...

CRAWFORD: That's good. But, I’m thinking about the book that’s up here - the book between your ears.

KEEN: Well size, jaw and the fin. Longer skinnier and the others got bigger guts. That sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: Good. I asked you before to think about places other than the Titi Islands. Now let’s focus on the Titi Islands specifically. Why do you think the White Pointers - of all the places around Stewart Island, I mean you see them over at the Ruggedys, you see them along the west coast, you see them out in the south corner ... But I get the impression - tell me if I’m wrong - that you see them more around the Titi Islands than pretty much any place else. Is that the case?

KEEN: Two reasons, I think. 

CRAWFORD: First of all is that right? Would you agree that they are around the Titi Islands more than anywhere else off Stewart Island?

KEEN: Yes, definitely. 

CRAWFORD: Then why? 

KEEN: Why I think is, one - the food chain. And possibly the other reason is because more population of boats. The question would be, if all these people and these fizz boats, commercial boats and Pāua diving - if they spent the same time on Souwest Cape, would they see the same amount of Sharks? 

CRAWFORD: Yes. That’s a very good point. Such an extremely good point to make. Because from a scientific point of view, the fact that nobody’s looking doesn’t mean the Sharks aren’t there. 

KEEN: Exactly.

CRAWFORD: It just means that we get the greatest number of observations from where the greatest number of people are spending the greatest amount of time. 

KEEN: So, commercial identity and amateur identity in this area [Titi Islands] is the greatest of anywhere in this area - in this whole Stewart Island area.

CRAWFORD: Yes, that is an extremely good point. Given the fact that most of the observations are in this region - Paterson Inlet, and the two bays, and amongst the islands - do you think that this northeast region has especially high abundance, compared to the rest of Stewart Island?

KEEN: Yes. History would tell you that, and I believe that. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think the White Pointers are there in such high density? 

KEEN: I personally think it's the food chain.

CRAWFORD: Explain that a little bit more, please.

KEEN: It’s probably the biggest population of Seals, and breeding of Seal pups and so forth, anywhere around the island. There are a lot of breeding areas all around the island but that's ... Bench Island, for instance, would be one of the biggest Seal breeding areas, and I think that’s a draw card - the food chain. It may possibly be a part of training the young White Pointers to hunt, but the food chain generally as well, on their way through to somewhere.

CRAWFORD: Once again, you’ve pointed out a couple of different things that are both potentially important. You talked about a draw card - that Seals could be bringing them in to the region. Do you think that the White Pointers are coming from afar, from up north or down south - to these Titi Islands to feed?

KEEN: Definitely. They're definitely coming here to feed.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that? 

KEEN: Mainly because of the sightings, and the amount of different Sharks we’re seeing here. For years, every year at a similar time. The information handed down from older times and older Pāua divers, right through to the younger Pāua divers. The history tells us at certain times of the year they are going to be there and have always been there. 

CRAWFORD: I completely get that. What I’m trying to get at is - why do people think that they are actually feeding on the Seals? A couple of questions specifically in that regard. Have you, or anybody you know, including the old-timers, seen White Pointers attacking Seals? 

KEEN: I have only ever seen one partly-eaten Seal. 

CRAWFORD: You’ve seen the remnants of an attack. Have you ever seen an attack? 

KEEN: No. 

CRAWFORD: What about your mates - have they ever seen any hits? 

KEEN: Not that I know of. 

CRAWFORD: So, we’re talking about a rare event, in terms of Human observation?

KEEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Do you think it’s the case that the attacks happen, but maybe they happen below the surface for some reason, and so we just don’t see them? Why is it that we’re not seeing more - that's the question? 

KEEN: Yeah, I don’t know. Is it timing? Or do they do most of the attacking at night?

CRAWFORD: A few people have suggested that since virtually nobody spends any time out there at night, nobody sees the attacks. 

KEEN: No, no.

CRAWFORD: We can only see things when we're there. And if we’re not there at night, we don’t see what happens then.

KEEN: I think maybe if you set cameras up on the shore, you possibly might see it.

CRAWFORD: Right. But there are other ways that we can get at this. And one of them is - for instance, you said you’ve seen a Seal carcass that you think resulted from a Shark attack. Relatively fresh?

KEEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: You had a strong suspicion that a White Pointer had done it?

KEEN: From the hunk I saw, it was something with a very big mouth.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was where? Titi Islands? 

KEEN: Bench Island, that was. I suppose it was the sou-west side of it.

CRAWFORD: And your mates - where have other people seen Seal carcasses? 

KEEN: I got told about Shark Island way. Ron Dennis and Bruce Skinner were around there Crayfishing. They were tank-diving for a feed of Crayfish. And the story goes they had seen half of a Seal, and then the other guy had seen what had bitten the Seal in half - a White Pointer. And they both ended up climbing up the cliff face.

CRAWFORD: As fast as they could.

KEEN: As fast as they could - high and dry. 

CRAWFORD: They didn’t see the attack?

KEEN: No.

CRAWFORD: But they put two and two together - when you see half a Seal and a whole White Pointer ...

KEEN: Yeah. Now the other thing about this area is the Sharks are sighted quite often there throughout history. 

CRAWFORD: Where specifically are we talking about now?

KEEN: Well, they call it Shark Island around the Square Bay-Shark Island area - which is in this area here. History would say, a lot of sightings from a lot of different fishermen - but yet, you hardly ever see a Seal in that area. There’s not big groups of Seals breeding there.

CRAWFORD: Then what do you think is going on there?

KEEN: Everybody’s got their theories. 

CRAWFORD: Tell me about a few.

KEEN: They think there is some sort of magnetic pull, or something going on in that area, that attracts them into that area. Because it’s definitely not the food chain. 

CRAWFORD:  What kind of shoreline is it, in comparison to the other side of the island? Generally - rocky shoreline, or sand or mud?

KEEN:  It’s a big, big beach - the Mason's Beach. And then it comes to rocky foul just like ...

CRAWFORD: Just like every place else?

KEEN: Yeah. It’s relatively deep to the edge, and then rocky. And the islands are similar. I’d have to look at the depths to see comparisons, but they're probably similar.

CRAWFORD: But no major Seal colonies over there?

KEEN: Codfish has a lot of Seals. And there will be sightings of White Pointers around there.

CRAWFORD: But more in the depths?

KEEN: But more history in this one particular area here. Which is a bit of a mystery, you know? You can blame the food chain here, but it's only certain for there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's follow through with your mates' history. Are there other places where people have seen the results of Shark-Seal interactions? Carcasses, bits of Seal?

KEEN: Not that I know of. Not that I remember.

CRAWFORD: One of the fishermen on the island said that on occasion he would get bits of Seal in the Cod that he was catching. And that is another indication of a carcass.

KEEN: That’ll be the first time I’ve heard of that. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Just before we move on ... have you seen or heard of White Pointers that people had opened their guts and actually saw what they were eating? In this region? 

KEEN: They’ve definitely caught them, and cut their guts open ... But no, I don’t recall what was seen about them.

CRAWFORD: if you were to predict, in this region off the bays and Paterson Inlet, and off the Titi Islands - what do you think would mostly be in the stomachs of the White Pointers? 

KEEN: I’d imagine Seals. Lots of Seals. 

CRAWFORD: Would you imagine Seal pups - if it was the right time of year? 

KEEN: Yeah. Yeah, I would.

CRAWFORD: You also said something interesting that I wanted to come back to, you said something about feeding on Seal pups - and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, you said something about ...

KEEN: The adults training the young ones.

CRAWFORD: Yes. Where did that come from? Was that you, or did you get that idea from somebody else? 

KEEN: No, I just think this type of ground - from young, little dumb Seals to adult Seals - it would be a good time. At some stage of life, the adult White Pointers have got to train the young ones how to feed. And this ground might be an ideal ground, because of the difference in speed and size of the Seal pups.

CRAWFORD: That’s kind of remarkable thinking in two regards. Number one, it gets back to this idea of White Pointers, apex predator, rogue predator of the sea right? You are thinking - maybe not so much. You're thinking that maybe there's some kind of parental training that might go on with the juvenile White Pointers?

KEEN: There must be at some stage. So where do they do it? If they don’t do it here, where do they do it? 

CRAWFORD: Well, it’s possible that these little guys just have to figure out how to feed by themselves. But it's also possible that they have some kind of social interaction.  

KEEN: I think that there's definitely ... They’ve been around long enough. No different than you and I training our kids.

CRAWFORD: Have you, or anybody you know, seen juvenile White Pointers around these waters? 

KEEN: You see little White Pointers. From the scientific sides of tagging and so forth, you are getting a mixture of big and little Sharks. So, they were definitely here. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of the rest of the island, I think you also said over at Ruggedy, down in the bay - that region in particular? 

KEEN: North of Mason’s Heads, along the shore.

CRAWFORD: You spent time fishing down there too?

KEEN: Yep. I can’t recall ever catching or seeing any White Pointers, but we’ve had nets with holes in them. And sou'west Cape ... I remember we got these new 'sausage buoys,' and it was a big white sausage buoy, and we always run two buoys om a Crayfish pot, and this buoy was sunk one day - it was probably, I don’t know, two and a half, three feet long, and it had a row of holes in it where something had come up and gone 'whack' and then left it. Was it a White Pointer that had mistaken it as a big white fish? But it certainly had the shape of a very big jaw and sharp holes right through both sides of it.

CRAWFORD: While we’re thinking about that end of the island, the nine months that you spent down in the Snares - anything to report from that experience? Did you see any White Pointers down there? 

KEEN:  No, I didn’t see any White Pointers. 

CRAWFORD: Any evidence of them?

KEEN: No. Lots of Sea Elephants and Seals, and Hooker Sea Lions, and everything else. But no White Pointers. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. Let’s back up a little bit. If there's a period of time that the White Pointers are converging around the northern Titi Islands, that side of the island, and if they’re coming here for the food ... where are they coming in from? What’s your sense of that? Are they coming in from the northern shoreline of Foveaux Strait? Elsewhere?

KEEN: I personally think they’re coming from the east. 

CRAWFORD: You mean down the eastern side of South Island? Down from the Otago Peninsula? 

KEEN: Some of them must come from that angle. They’re definitely coming in on the east side.

CRAWFORD: Not so much coming in from the west? 

KEEN: I don’t think so. Sightings and evidence wouldn’t say that.

CRAWFORD: Less sightings on the southwest corner of South Island? 

KEEN: Yes. 

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: Well, you’ve spent considerable time Pāua diving and Crayfishing up here right? Have you ever seen any White Pointers along the north side of Foveaux Strait, say west of Te Waewae Bay?

KEEN: Only one, and it was brought in by the side of a boat that had been caught in a net - while we were Pāua diving.

CRAWFORD: Alright. That’s one here that was caught incidentally in a net. 

KEEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Compared to how many total? All circumstances, how many White Pointers do you reckon you’ve seen in your life? Under the water, on the water, in the nets, add them all up. Roughly, how many?

KEEN: Ten, maybe. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’re going to talk about dead ones for right now. We’ll talk about live ones in a minute. 

KEEN: All right. The three which had been targeted that I’ve seen come in, were caught in Halfmoon Bay, by two different people.

CRAWFORD: Intentionally targeted by two different people, on three different occasions?

KEEN: Three different occasions, yes. 

CRAWFORD: So, one Shark per occasion?

KEEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And those were animals were perceived to pose a risk? Those animals were intentionally removed?

KEEN: Yes. And one caught by mistake. Those are the only dead ones I've seen.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about the live ones? How many live White Pointers have you seen? 

KEEN: I’ve seen one when I was in the water at the back of Shark Island, that Square Bay-Shark Island area. 

CRAWFORD: Let's go one by one on these encounters. Tell me the circumstances, what were you doing, time of year roughly, years ago.

KEEN: Oh, I’m hopeless with years ...

CRAWFORD: Roughly. Was it five years, or ten or twenty?

KEEN: Ten years ago. We were commercially diving.

CRAWFORD: Commercially diving for ...

KEEN: For Pāuas. We were fifteen, eighteen feet. 

CRAWFORD: You were freediving? 

KEEN: Freediving. We were probably three to four hundred feet apart - a guy Web was with me.

CRAWFORD: So, two divers and one dinghy boy? 

KEEN: Yeah, one dinghy boy. Andrew Webber was with us, and I’d just seen the shadow while I was on the bottom chipping a few off. And a shadow come over me, and I looked up and in milliseconds I knew what it was - because you just go through all these things that it could be, and then you know what it is.

CRAWFORD: What were the things in those milliseconds that you knew it wasn’t?

KEEN: A Seal, a Basking Shark, a Sevengiller. You sum those up pretty quickly. It was about six feet under the water from the surface. And it just stopped. It stopped - it just slid along and stopped. So, it’s over me, I’m on the bottom in fifteen feet ...

CRAWFORD: Holding your breath.

KEEN: Holding my breath. Running out of breath. Looking at it going "Shit. I’ve gotta go past it." So, it’s six feet under the surface, and when I come up I’m six feet away from it as well, because I’m coming straight up!

CRAWFORD: In front? On the side?

KEEN: Side. And it’s slightly looking at me with a slight turn of its head. Pretty much otherwise straight aside. So, I’m looking at it side-on, with a slight turn in its head. It’s got its eyes wide open, and looking straight through me. And it’s got its jaw down about fifty mill[imetres]. Forty, fifty mill. it’s got its lazy jaw. Doesn’t move. Doesn’t move at all. Nothing moves. And I’m just heading straight for the surface, yell for the dinghy boy loudly and aggressively - it still hasn’t moved. Screamed, I think three or four times, at the dinghy boy - because he’s been slacking and wasn’t listening and doing what he’s told. Then he comes idling over towards me ...

CRAWFORD: The dinghy boy?

KEEN: The dinghy boy, yeah. And just before I hopped in the dinghy, the White Pointer just starts gliding off. No fin movements. No movement that you can identify. And he just slides off and disappears, just as I hop in the dinghy. It amazed me, because of the efficiency. Like normally, with a Dolphin or anything like that - you’d see in the water, you would see its dorsal fin move, you’d see movement before they move. This thing just slid off. Like it was so efficient. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. [chuckles] Well, I've gotta tell ya ...

KEEN: I was looking pretty hard too! [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Yes, I would think your senses were pretty primed at the time. 

KEEN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] Clearly what you experienced in this case was not a Level 1 ...

KEEN: He was clearly wanting to know what I was. What, where and why. He was just curious, he wanted to know. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see a kind of tension in its body?

KEEN: No. I think it was pretty relaxed. I don’t think it was scared of me at all. It was cruising - but thinking. 

CRAWFORD: You also made a very interesting observation about its mouth ...

KEEN: Yeah with its jaw. Because it stuck out. 

CRAWFORD: Because it was down. Was it moving, vibrating?

KEEN: No, it was lazy. He was just sitting there. He was just sitting and watching. 

CRAWFORD: It was a 'he'? 

KEEN: Well, I just presumed 'he'.

CRAWFORD: Would you have seen claspers?

KEEN: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But it stopped ...

KEEN: Which amazed me.

CRAWFORD: It stopped above you. And I'm presuming you were trying to be as still as possible? 

KEEN: Yep. All the theories go through your head.

CRAWFORD: And it’s not like you’re scubadiving, and there's a bunch of bubbles going up, or anything like that. And you figure that it sensed you?

KEEN: Oh, definitely. It sensed me and had a look. It sensed me possibly before it even seen me. 

CRAWFORD: And you needed to pass by where it had stopped.

KEEN: I had to, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Well, because you didn’t have the breath to do anything else. 

KEEN: Yeah, I had to go straight up. I'd used my spare air on the bottom. 

CRAWFORD: And it did not move at all - that you saw? 

KEEN: No. I was watching it the whole time, and even from yelling on the surface for a split second - take my eye off, and then take my eye back onto it. Because I had to poke my head out to scream with my snorkel out of my mouth, because the dinghy boy wasn’t responding. So, snorkel back in the mouth, and eyeball it. 

CRAWFORD: And it had not moved?

KEEN: No. 

CRAWFORD: Six feet below the surface. It just hung there. 

KEEN: And its jaw was just floating there. Not moving. Just jaw open, big dark eyes. And it felt like it's just looking straight through you. Direct look. I could look at its eye. I looked it in the eye. 

CRAWFORD: And then as you're getting in the dinghy ...

KEEN: As the dinghy got to me closer, it just started drifting away. It just drifted away. 

CRAWFORD: Straight down?

KEEN: Not straight down. On a forty degrees angle, or something like that. And not in a hurry.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that’s in response to the dinghy coming over? 

KEEN: Yeah. Well, you would think so, because it’s the only thing ... I hadn’t changed or moved.

CRAWFORD: And by the time the dinghy boy had the dinghy over, was the Shark out of sight?

KEEN: Yes, definitely. I jumped on dinghy, went to grab the camera, and then I thought "Shit. Get the other diver." That was Andrew. Which it had come clear, when we got about forty feet from him, that he had already seen it.

CRAWFORD: Sorry, say that again?

KEEN: The White Pointer had already done a lap around him and come to me.

CRAWFORD: How did you know?

KEEN: Because he told me. 

CRAWFORD: So, after the fact, what did your mate tell you? 

KEEN: After the fact. So, we go over and pick him up, he flies in the dinghy - he doesn't even touch the sides. And I said "Well, I guess you’ve seen it then." From his reaction. He said "Yeah." And what I didn’t know at the time was - he was swimming very, very slowly ... So, it had done a circle around him, like a half circle, and then come straight to me. So, it did come around him, and then headed straight for me - which he thought was quite a good thing. [chuckles]. But he was swimming very, very slowly towards the dinghy, not trying to make a splash. In his mind that’s what you do, you don’t panic, you don't move quickly. His hand went off the side of the dinghy when I screamed at the guy to come and get me. So, the dinghy boy had actually left him there. We actually sacked that dinghy boy, because he wasn’t very observant.

CRAWFORD: And the dinghy boy saw nothing?

KEEN: No. Well, I actually didn’t even ask him. 

CRAWFORD: What was water clarity like at the time? 

KEEN: It was good.

CRAWFORD: Fifty feet?

KEEN: Yeah. It’d be fifty, easy.

CRAWFORD: And you were over roughly twenty feet? 

KEEN: Eighteen, yeah fifteen. It wouldn’t be over twenty. So, fifteen to twenty probably. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year was that? 

KEEN: Oh, shit - I’d have to ...

CRAWFORD: Summer?

KEEN: Yeah, it probably was. Now I could ask. I could get the time of year, because Andrew would remember. 

CRAWFORD: That's ok. How many years ago, roughly? And I don’t remember if I asked you before, I’m sorry. 

KEEN: Had the Sea Shag then, so ... when was that, it’d be fifteen, seventeen years ago. I could get some dates on it. 

CRAWFORD: And you were Pāua diving at the time?

KEEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: You had no fish on a line, or anything like that. You ever spearfish?

KEEN: No, generally I don’t. 

CRAWFORD: I think you said that was the second time you’ve seen a White Pointer. What was the first one? 

KEEN: Yeah, that’s the first one. I’ve only ever seen the one like that.

CRAWFORD: You’ve seen them from a boat ...

KEEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But as a Pāua diver ...

KEEN: Yeah, in the water.

CRAWFORD: With you in the water - it in the water. That is the first and the only time?

KEEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. You’ve also seen White Pointers from the surface?

KEEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Where have you seen them the most - from a vessel, from the surface?

KEEN: When I’m catching a feed of Cod with lines. That was the last experience at the islands here. And it just come along to the boat, and rolled over, and looked at us.

CRAWFORD: You were line fishing, off one of the Titi Islands?

KEEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: You were fishing for Blue Cod? 

KEEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: You had a fish on? 

KEEN: Yep. Well, there was two or three of us with lines out.

CRAWFORD: Had you been doing any fish cleaning or anything?

KEEN: No. Not at that time, no.

CRAWFORD: And the animal comes up and ...

KEEN: Looks at us. 

CRAWFORD: Did it swim by, and then come up - rolls and bring up the eye?

KEEN: It had just come along beside us, more or less. And just rolled and looked at us and then just carried on. It may have come a couple of times. And then it was gone.

CRAWFORD: That’s Level 3 then, isn’t it? It’s showing interest, but not with attitude. When it did roll, did the head and the eye come out of the water, or was it all below?  

KEEN: No, I think it was surface breaking. The head may have broke the surface at one stage, for a very short time. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Is there anything about White Pointers that you’re thinking of, that we haven’t talked about? 

KEEN: Nah. We’ve pretty much covered it. I think they’re just very curious. I don’t know if they're nosy, or they just want to know what’s going on in their space.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: What about other Pāua divers. What kind of diving experiences did they have with White Pointers?

The guys I used to Pāua dive with, like Jeremy Foley - he got the top quota of sixty-three tonne or something I think, so that was a heap by far. Jeremy and Philip Ballantyne, they’d probably done ... well, definitely done more diving than anybody in New Zealand commercially, by far. Never ever seen one on the water. None of them had ever seen one.

CRAWFORD: On the order of twenty, thirty years of experience? 

KEEN: Oh, shit - it’d be thirty plus years. They taught me.

CRAWFORD: And where were they working? 

KEEN: The whole of Stewart Island, and the whole of west coast [South Island]. And very little of Dunedin, the east coast.

CRAWFORD: They fished up until when? 

KEEN: Probably two or three years after quota had come in, Jeremy stopped and retired. 

CRAWFORD: So, these were pre-quota Pāua divers? 

KEEN: Yep. Prior to that time, he had never seen one in the water. He never experienced one in the water. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Prior to the cage tour dive operations in the Titi Islands, had anybody else among the Pāua divers had a White Pointer experience - in the water - that you know of? Prior to, say ten years ago?

KEEN: I heard a story that Ross Newton had seen one at the back of Ruapuke.

CRAWFORD: Do you know what category? Level 1 through 4?

KEEN: You’d have to ask him. Paul Young had seen one around the Saddle area while he was in the water. I’ve never asked Paul, it’s just handed down. That's the only two sightings that I know of, of other commercial fishermen that have seen them.

CRAWFORD: So, relatively rare events - prior to the cage diving operations?

KEEN: Yes.  

CRAWFORD:  Cage tour dive operations didn’t start until eight years ago now - and it started in an exploratory phase, and then it built up. 

KEEN: It’s only really built up the last five years. 

CRAWFORD: So, let’s use that then, to be fair - over the last five years - of the Pāua divers that you know who work around Stewart Island and Foveaux Strait, have there been Pāua divers that have had in-water White Pointer interactions? 

KEEN: Not that I know of. 

CRAWFORD: Based on everything that you know about this region, do you know of any instance where a White Pointer was aggressively harassing a Pāua diver? Showing that kind of Level 4 attitude with Pāua divers? 

KEEN: No. 

CRAWFORD: I hadn’t actually planned it this way, but it’s a natural next question. In this region, Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait, and the coastline, how many instances of White Pointer attacks or near attacks have you heard of? 

KEEN: A couple of possibles, but that’s through media.

CRAWFORD: That's ok. Tell me what you heard about - roughly where and when these Level 4 interactions might have occurred.

KEEN: I think out the front, oyster diving - we call them Loopies; guys that will come over for the weekend.

CRAWFORD: 'Out the front' meaning ... 

KEEN: Out by the islands here.

CRAWFORD: Edwards?

KEEN: I can’t recall exactly. 

CRAWFORD: But around the Titi Islands? 

KEEN: Yeah. It was out the front of the islands, tank diving for a feed of oysters. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how long ago? 

KEEN: Ten, twelve years ago probably. 

CRAWFORD: And what did you hear? 

KEEN: I think he may have got a little bite. But that was pretty vague. Doc Marty at Stewart Island - if you talked to him, he could enlighten you on whether he treated anybody.

CRAWFORD: And was that in the summer, if it was recreational diving?

KEEN: Yeah, it would have been - I’d say. 

CRAWFORD: And maybe one or two others incidences? 

KEEN: A couple friends had sightings just outside of Riverton. In the water tank diving for Crayfish out here. 

CRAWFORD: Is that Escape Reef?

KEEN: Yeah, Escape Reef area. Two of the friends I know had been on the bottom and approached by a White Pointer - just come up and been nosy. And one occasion ... they have like a six-foot long pole that they put around the Crayfish, and pull the wire, and it snoops them. On one occasion, because a White Pointer was coming right up to him, he was prodding it with the pole.

CRAWFORD: It was a personal space issue?

KEEN: Yes. He was a bit concerned about the space he never had.

CRAWFORD: Other than the personal space was there ...

KEEN: No, I don’t think there was any aggressiveness. Just more curiosity, possibly. 

CRAWFORD: Some people who have spent a lot of time diving, spearfishing around the mouth of Paterson Inlet, they were surprised that the pingers were saying there were White Pointers around there, because they never saw them.

KEEN: The ones that are going through aren’t interested in people in the water for some reason.

CRAWFORD: Human beings are, for the most part, pretty limited in what we can sense, right? 

KEEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: We can see things ... but even when you’re sitting or standing on a boat, you’ve got limited range of sight horizontally. And you’ve got limited range down into the water. If the Sharks are below the surface, in many cases they could be right there - and we don’t even see them.

KEEN: Through my years of Pāua diving, there have been times when I’m commercially Pāua diving where I've thought "What the hell's going on? It's time to go and have lunch now." "Well why aren’t there any fish life around?" and "Where have the Seals gone?" "Why am I here on my own now?" I’ve actually got out of the water and had lunch because of paranoia of whether there is something around. 

CRAWFORD: What I got told as a kid, was that just because you're feeling paranoid doesn’t mean there isn't something to be concerned about. Roughly, how many times do you think that might’ve happened? Like when you saw normal aquatic life around, and then nothing?

KEEN: Oh, dozens. You get this feeling of "What’s going on? Where have all the Greenbone gone? Where have the Moki gone?" And you know, Bench Island - whenever you Pāua dive there, the Seals are there all the time. They want to play, just hooning around - and you suddenly notice that there's nothing there. You go to yourself "That’s not right." So that’s when you hop out for lunch. Definitely on different occasions at Bench island. Definitely I remember there might be half a dozen instances diving all over the islands differently, you know? And that’s happened.

CRAWFORD: It seems like an intuitive thing, something that's deep down.

KEEN: Well, you’re aware of what’s around you.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever heard other Pāua divers saying the same kind of things? 

KEEN: No.

CRAWFORD: But if somebody did ask them, it might be the case. Maybe it's just not something they would talk about on their own? 

KEEN: Yeah, if you asked them. On another ... same type of thing, but slightly different thing. Russell Varcoe has done a lot of tank diving - like, thousands of dives.

CRAWFORD: Recreational or ...

KEEN: Recreational, yeah. Just play diving. On two occasions, separate occasions, and separate places - once here ... 

CRAWFORD: Escape Reef? 

KEEN: Yep. And once in the Doubtful - West Coast area, downside Fiordland. He was diving with groups of two or four people, and he’s gone "I think there's a White Pointer here" in his own mind. And he said to his partner "I’m going up." And he's hopped aboard. On those two occasions, he has not seen a White Pointer, but he’s got out when he thinks there's one there. And on two of the occasions, the people who have stayed in the water have seen White Pointers. We find it weird that he has done that twice. And it’s been with different groups of people who have told me the story when we’re talking about White Pointers - "That bloody Russell Varcoe."

CRAWFORD: He’s got some kind of White Pointer sense?

KEEN: Is it observation? Like, I hadn't even seen a White Pointer, and no one said I would see a White Pointer - but when I see nothing around me ... if I had stayed in, would I have seen something? Is it Russell’s observation going "There’s nothing around me. I’m hopping out." Exactly the same as what I would do. But people have stayed in there, tank diving, and have seen White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: And I see why you have made the connection. In those cases, when the people who were still down there and saw a White Pointer - was it a Level 1, Level 2, Level what engagement?

KEEN: It was just doing the same thing. It just carried on.

CRAWFORD: Level 2.

KEEN: It wasn’t really interested in them.

CRAWFORD: Was it even in enough proximity to be considered a swim by? 

KEEN: They were in its line of sight. 

CRAWFORD: Well, that’s close enough.

6. Effects of cage tour dive operations

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s focus on the Shark cage tour dive operations. There was a kind of build-up phase, but let’s say it was the last five years that it was going full-time. Two operations. First of all, what do you know about what they do? Have you seen the operations?

KEEN: Yep. I’ve seen the cages, I’ve seen the boats, I’ve seen the operation, I’ve talked to the people.  

CRAWFORD: In general, what is the pattern of what they do? 

KEEN: They are in similar areas. Like I’ve seen them at Edwards Island, they’ve got a moorings there – they actually go on the moorings.  With their punters, or coming in to Halfmoon Bay … well, they used to come and pick their punters up and then go back out. 

CRAWFORD: When they get to Edwards, they motor in …

KEEN: Yep, anchor up - or grab their moorings. Their punters get their gear on, they’ll lower the cage, and their punters will get in the cage.

CRAWFORD: Have you’ve missed something important? They berley. 

KEEN: I haven’t actually seen them, personally, berley. I’ve normally come along, and their already set up and going. But yes, they do berley. It’s open knowledge. 

CRAWFORD: What do you know about the permits that regulate berleying and things like that?

KEEN: My understanding of the permits that lay in place now, that they are not supposed to, not allowed to feed …

CRAWFORD: They are allowed to berley, they’re not allowed to feed, but they are still allowed to have a bait on a line to guide the Sharks around the cage - but they have to do everything in their capability to make sure that the animals don’t actually get that bait. 

KEEN: Prior to the permit being invented they were open about it, they bought boxes of Tuna, and they berleyed and fed the Sharks Tuna. 

CRAWFORD: Yes they did, because at the time there was no reason not to - other than perhaps economics, because Tuna’s expensive. But if it gives a certain effect that the other baits do not …

KEEN: If it gives a good result for their punters, the more guaranteed sighting …

CRAWFORD: Yes. There’s another important thing about the permits though - they said that these operations can only be around Edwards Island, no place else. And within a certain distance from the shore. 

ANON. Yes.

CRAWFORD: So, given that pattern of operation, do you think that the cage tour diving operations are having an important effect on the Sharks? 

KEEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What do you think the effect is, and why is it important?

KEEN: I think they are training the Sharks, because they are going to one spot all the time. They’re teaching the White Pointer that if they go there when they hear the certain boat noise - they’re going to get food. And a lot of the time, there are people in those cages, and I think they’re training them to know that there’s a Human or something in that cage. So, you’ve got boat noise, you’ve got Humans in the water, and you’ve got food - all at the same time. Personally, I think they are teaching them that those three things go together. Just like a dog … just like putting dog food in the dog’s bowl every day in the same place. That dog will appear out of nowhere at the same time every day to eat his food. White Pointer will do the same, I personally believe. 

CRAWFORD: What you’re talking about, and we need to break it apart a little bit …

KEEN: Learned behavior.

CRAWFORD: Yes, it’s learned behavior. It’s conditioned response. You can use whatever words you want. The key in this instance, is if the operations are having a significant effect, if the animals that were experiencing this at Edwards Island - if those animals were residing there at Edwards Island, and they didn’t go anyplace else. But if the animals move, if the animals go into Paterson Inlet or into other bays – do they take that learning with them?

KEEN: And it’s teaching its young as well.

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to that in a bit. But first of all, do you think that the White Pointers are associating the smell of food - let’s not worry about the bait right now, just the berley small because it’s a fine mince. So only the smell of fish as food, not Seal as food, not Seal blood or anything. Do you think that the White Pointers are associating the food smell of fish with Edwards Island? 

KEEN: Oh yes, definitely. It would appear if you were to be at that place on a regular basis, and you have a regular smell, and the White Pointer is coming there and being seen and sighted there in the same place, same time, and so forth ...

CRAWFORD: Let’s imagine we were someplace else with relatively high numbers of White Pointers - like maybe the east side of Codfish?

KEEN: Hundreds of thousands of hours done swimming there by Pāua divers, Kina divers, no sightings while in the water there.

CRAWFORD: No White Pointer sightings in the water at Codfish?

KEEN: And if you pull up in there in a boat, they’re not likely to come and visit you. 

CRAWFORD: But if we went there, and we started to do cage tour dive operations there, do you think the Sharks would come?

KEEN: It may take some time, but I think they could be trained to go there.

CRAWFORD: If we did that, would we find that even on days when the cage tour dive operations are not running, would the Sharks still aggregate at that place.

KEEN: Possibly, yes.

CRAWFORD: Now let’s consider the boat, but let’s say we were running a cage tour dive operation from a boat - without a motor. Do you think that the White Pointers would be associating this fish berley smell with a boat just floating up there on the surface - without any boat noise? 

KEEN: Without an engine, no. 

CRAWFORD: Regardless of the engine, is what I'm trying to get at. For instance, if you took a sailboat over to the east side of Edward’s Island where the cage dives operate, do you think the Sharks would pay any attention to a sail boat without a motor there? 

KEEN: If it was in the area, it would circle around it, and see what’s going on.

CRAWFORD: I think what you’re saying is yes. That the animals then would be associating the berley with boats. And a sailboat is a good example, because it can operate without a motor. 

KEEN: What history would tell you is certain boats are tracked ...

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to following in a minute as well. But let's start with simple, and then add complexity - ok? The simplest is association with the place. The next simplest is to add association with a boat - without a motor. And now we add the motor to the boat ... 

KEEN: I think the White Pointers are attracted, just like we are, by noise. We are attracted by noise, someone goes past in a noisy car - we look at it. We’ll see what’s going on. I think a boat making a noise, regardless of bait or if it’s stopped, whatever, if that boat is in that area an engine noise will attract the white pointer.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You've spent time in those waters prior to the cage tour diving operations. You’ve been over there in a boat with a motor off Edwards Island. Did Sharks come around? 

KEEN: No.

CRAWFORD: Not back in the day?

KEEN: No.

CRAWFORD: Do they now? 

KEEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Have you experienced this personally?

KEEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Now let’s talk a little bit about motors. Some people think that White Pointers can pick up a motor's individual signature. What do you think about that? 

KEEN: Definitely. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you say 'definitely'? 

KEEN: Peter Scott could go out there in his boat, and they will follow him after the fact - even right into [Halfmoon Bay]. White Pointers will follow him into the bay. Other boats will go through the Strait in the freight boat, the ferries, slow boats, fast boats - they don’t follow them. Kevin Schofield’s boat, the 'Enterprise' - similar old wooden boat, slow-revving motor - Shark followed him from the islands right up the inlet into Dead Man’s Bay. Done laps around him, and went away again. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You’re bringing in some important new information, but we’re going to park it over here for just a second, because following behaviour is the next level up. We were talking about potential association between berleying and the site, and then maybe to the boat, maybe to the motor. When I asked you specifically about whether the Sharks had the ability to discriminate and respond to individual motor sound signatures, you said yes.

KEEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: If one of the operators' boats goes to that place, do you think there is a greater number of Sharks showing a greater amount of interest, compared to a similarly-sized but different motor boat? 

KEEN: Yes. I think they are attracted to those specific boats. Because in the past the Sharks know that those two boats, they will get food from. 

CRAWFORD: I get that. But nobody’s really tested that, we don’t know for sure.

KEEN: I think other boats could go out there and go on those moorings and not ... Well, some people have gone out there, not tourist operators, in those same areas and have not seen Sharks.

CRAWFORD: I think that was what I was looking for. Sometimes it’s evidence of absence that is important.

KEEN: Was it just a bad day? Or was it bad timing or what? 

CRAWFORD: What about the cage itself? If we went out there and we put a cage in the water with no berley and no people in it, would we get the same kind of reaction? Let’s just think about the cage itself.

KEEN: They’re going to be curious of the cage. Just like they're curious of anything in the water.    

CRAWFORD: Yes. Based on what you've already said, you would expect that kind of curious behaviour. So, let’s jump to Humans in the cage. Do you think that the Sharks would be associating that fish food smell, fish blood smell, with the Humans inside the cage? 

KEEN: Personally, I think they are. And the reason I say that, is if you put an empty cage there - is there any evidence of them ever attacking an empty cage, and ramming it, and trying to get in it? But yet there’s evidence with people in the cage, where they try and get in the cage or ram it or so forth.

CRAWFORD: I think you answered the question there, because there is no evidence where anyone has put cages out - without people inside. That's the absence of evidence I was talking about.

KEEN: The tourist operators could probably tell you. "We put an empty cage over - do they attack the cage?" It could be a question put to them, and they could answer it. They would be the only ones that would know.

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. You could also ask the question if it’s just berley without people in the cage, do they attack the cage? 

KEEN: Yeah. You'd have to do that experiment. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Let's get back to the following behaviour. Do you think that White Pointers follow boats?

KEEN: Yes, definitely.

CRAWFORD: Have you seen White Pointers following boats? 

KEEN: I have not seen White Pointers follow boats, but I have been told that they do.

CRAWFORD:  Have the old-timers or your mates seen it?

KEEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Tell me about those instances, please.

KEEN: The latest instance would be Kevin Schofield a year and a half, maybe two years ago, he had steamed from either Bluff or Riverton - he keeps his boat in both places, the 'Enterprise.' He’d come through the [Northern Titi] islands, and noticed before the Neck, because he was going up [Paterson] Inlet, he was going up to Deep Bay, which is where he anchored his boat at Stewart Island.

CRAWFORD: What was he doing? What’s the nature of his business? 

KEEN: He is a retired fishermen. He’s a Crayfishermen born in Te Anau, lived ninety percent of his life at Stewart Island. He’s a Schofield, they live at Ringaringa.

CRAWFORD: And he’s retired ...

KEEN: Yeah, he leases quota out.

CRAWFORD: He still likes to spend time there? 

KEEN: Yeah. His mother still lives there. 

CRAWFORD: Does he still do any fishing on the 'Enterprise' - anything like that? 

KEEN: No. It’s just means of travel. He likes his old boats.

CRAWFORD: I think you said something about this boat being similar to one of the cage operators' boats?

KEEN: Yeah, it’s a planked wooden boat, similar in size to Peter Scott's boat. It’s a countersunk old design, so they're smooth through the water, relatively quiet I’d imagine. He noticed it off the Neck - "There’s something there." He studied it a wee bit, and came up with "It’s a White Pointer."

CRAWFORD: And he stopped? 

KEEN: No, no. He just carried on steaming. So, it followed him right up the [Paterson] Inlet, and right into Deep Bay, and he put the boat on the moorings at Deep Bay. So he’s on there, turned the motor off, ready to row ashore, and this White Pointer had done at least three laps around his boat when it was on the moorings, with the motor turned off. And then it just disappeared.

CRAWFORD:  He’s confident that it was the same fish? He didn’t pick up a different fish that just happened to be in Deep Bay?

KEEN: You’d have to ask him the question. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s an important story, because people think that following behaviour is happening. Some people see stuff like that, and that’s the stuff that convinces them that it’s happening. That’s one instance, and I think you said there was at least one other case?

KEEN: Just stories of Cod fishermen, coming in, and them noticing a White Pointer ...

CRAWFORD: Trailing behind them?

KEEN: Yep. There’s also been evidence of people seeing White Pointers follow Peter Scott into the bay, into Halfmoon Bay. 

CRAWFORD: They have seen his boat ...

KEEN: Well, the stories go - and I’ve never seen it myself - but I’ve been told ...

CRAWFORD: Yes, I understand. And that doesn’t mean that the stories are necessarily true.

KEEN: No.

CRAWFORD: Some stories are true, and some stories are partly true, and some stories are not true.

KEEN: You have to go down the line and track where the story had come from, and who had actually seen it. 

CRAWFORD: And it’s important to be clear that this isn’t an inquisition. I’m just trying to get ...

KEEN: Someone comes forward with "I’ve seen this."

CRAWFORD: Right. So, can you think of any other specific following event? Something that would have got you thinking that this following behaviour is a real thing?

KEEN: No. The latest one with Kevin ... I used to live with him, I used to fish with him, so I believe his story. 

CRAWFORD: And he told you that story directly? 

KEEN: He told me the story, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Right. I think you also said before that the presence of White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay - that it hasn’t been like that for the past many years, but that's not to say that it won’t be.

KEEN: Yeah. It might be a cycle thing. 

CRAWFORD: It could be a natural cycle, it could be related to abundance, it could be related to dispersion, it could be related to learning or following, it could be related to all of these things. But it's going to prove a challenge, if and when White Pointers start appearing in the bays again. You know that some people are going to jump to conclusions about the actual causes - this or that or the other thing. But you may also get those old feelings of "What are we going to do to protect ourselves." Does it mean the kids won’t be allowed to swim down at Bathing Beach anymore? That type of thing?

KEEN: There’s definitely already, from holiday makers and crib owners and general people - there is certainly a lot more awareness there. That possibly you shouldn't be swimming in some of the bays, at some of the times - which is around that Christmas time, when they are known to be around. I think it’s just a matter of time. But there’s a lot more wariness now, and it’s because of the research done. It’s evident there was a lot more White Pointers around than we knew about. Was that always the case? Or is it because it’s been studied and looked into, that we are aware there’s a lot more? That’s one way of looking at it. Because they are protected now, they aren’t getting culled off in the bays like they used to. So, it’s only a matter of time where the numbers will increase anyway. And if you’ve got bigger numbers, there's more of a chance of them being in the areas they used to be in - they will be again. 

CRAWFORD: Regardless - even if there was no cage tour dive operations?

KEEN: Yes. It’s going to happen anyways. 

CRAWFORD: Increase in abundance means increase in encounters?

KEEN: Yes, exactly. 

CRAWFORD: And every once in a while there is an attack, and every once in a while there is a fatality. 

KEEN: Well because it’s protected there's more of them. If there’s more of them, they’re going to be in the bays. Whatever led them in the bays ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years ago - the same things are going to happen. They’re going to go into those bays, for whatever reason - we don’t know. Now, as far as someone getting attacked one day, it’s not if - it’s a matter of when. And I say that because of the increasing amount of Sharks there. And also, we probably have three times the number of people with tanks on their back, diving for oysters and so forth. Twenty-five or thirty years ago, you'd see half a dozen tank divers. Now you see hundreds of tank divers. Tank diving was not a thing you’ve seen until salmon farming started up in Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think the tank diving is a significant contributor to the probability of an attack?

KEEN: Because you’ve got people in the water diving.

CRAWFORD: But you had Pāua divers in the water all along?

KEEN: Yeah, but you had ten Paua divers in the water, you didn’t have twenty-five recreational divers in the water.

CRAWFORD: You’re not necessarily just focusing on the scuba rigs themselves?

KEEN: No, no, no. I’m saying people. The number of people in general.

CRAWFORD: Total number of people in the water.

KEEN: Yes. You’ve got more Sharks. You’ve got more people in the water. I had this idea of building a storage shed in Bluff for boats. People live in town, they don’t have places to keep their boats. So the likes of Auckland, Wellington - places like that, they have these huge big storage areas for boats. A mechanic looks after your boat, you have someone wash it, you put it in a shelf, you ring up the next day that you want to use it, put it in the water, you board it, turn the key and you’re gone. We did a study. Years ago, the start of oyster season you’d see five boats at one boat ramp, and two or three at the other boat ramp. Now it’s twenty, thirty boats on the water every year at that time of year. There's ten or fifteen boats every second weekend, Codding. There are more boats are on the water, so you're seeing more sightings. There’s more people in the water, there’s more Sharks in the water because they’re protected. And on and on it goes. That's why I say it’s not a matter of if - it’s a matter of when. Because of all those factors.

CRAWFORD: Just based on the numbers. 

KEEN: Yeah. I’m not saying it's because of Shark cage diving. I’m just saying, in general - all these things ...

CRAWFORD: I understand. And I think it's important that somebody says that for the record. It also happens to be somebody who thinks that the Shark cage tour dive operations are having an important effect as well. But there are some important factors that are independent of those operations.

KEEN: The only thing I see about the Shark cage diving is that I believe that these White Pointers can be trained. And I worry about the association with the people, with boat noise and the food being together. Is this increasing? I was in the water seven years ago and a White Pointer came along and had a look at me, and decided "Nah," and carried on. Now, if this White Pointer's experienced the cage diving, it’s wondering what I am. I’ve got an aura about me, or a field, or whatever. These White Pointers know that aura now. I was something they didn’t know about. They hadn’t seen one of these silly buggers in the water before. Now they see them quite often. So, I think they're saying "Oh. Boat noise. Person. Food." Something they know all the time, because they’ve been shown all the time. Now, will that increase a mistaken identity of an attack? You're on the bottom, you're tank diving, you’re getting your oyster. Rightey-O. Some time ago, it would have looked at you, swum past you, carried on. Now, because it’s familiar with you ... "Last time I had this about me, I got a feed." You know? So is it going to attack your hand bag?

CRAWFORD: Or even the smell of a feed?

KEEN: Yeah. So "I’ve got boat noise on the surface. I’ve got this aura in the water. I haven’t got the smell, but hell I’ll have a go anyway. Have a wee taste, see what’s there." Mistaken identity possibly. I worry that may increase because of cage diving. That’s the only concern I would have about cage diving. Apart from that, I think it’s a great idea. If you’re not training them. 

CRAWFORD: That is the most articulate way that I have heard anybody say that. 

KEEN: It’s just the way I ...

CRAWFORD: I know, but it’s clean. It’s clear. And if somebody held a different opinion, they would still know exactly what you meant. There are some people that struggle with it, they struggle for the words. You know what makes that opinion so incredibly clear? Because you brought it right back to that direct encounter you had. Because it was the absence of hostility. The absence even of the kind of active inquiring by that fish. It simply didn’t respond. It stopped. I didn’t do anything else.

KEEN: No. It wanted to know - what, when, how, why. It was sussing me out. It wanted to know. "I haven’t seen this before."

CRAWFORD: But you tied your concern back to that encounter. And that just makes it work, because anybody who heard the first part of the story now understands exactly what your concern is. 

KEEN: And why.

CRAWFORD: And why, yeah. Ok. I realized you were yawning. You’re a hard-working guy. You’ve had a long day.

KEEN: I got a paint mix to get on to. 

CRAWFORD: Well thank you so much for taking the time with me.

KEEN: Yep.

Copyright © 2019 Russell Keen and Steve Crawford