Richard Squires

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: What year were you born, Richard?

SQUIRES: 1954.

CRAWFORD: Where?

SQUIRES: Nightcaps - inland from Invercargill. My Mother came from there, and went there to have me.

CRAWFORD: Roughly what age do you recall first spending significant amount of time around coastal waters?

SQUIRES: All my life. I used to go with my Father - fishing, when I was a kid.

CRAWFORD: Your Father was a commercial fisherman based out of where?

SQUIRES: Out of here, Stewart Island. And in Bluff.

CRAWFORD: You were born inland on the South Island. When did you move to Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: Mother only went over there to have me.

CRAWFORD: So, you were still in nappies. You came back here soon after?

SQUIRES: I was a baby, yeah.

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing your first recollections would have been from Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Your Dad was a fisherman. What kind of operation?

SQUIRES: Cray fisherman, Blue Cod fisherman

CRAWFORD: Based out of Halfmoon Bay?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Generally, what region would he fish?

SQUIRES: All over the place. We used to go up the coast, when I was a kid. All down the Cape, all round here.

CRAWFORD: So, all the way around Stewart Island. But also over to southwestern Fiordland.

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Did he have the usual kind of operation - Codpotting part of the year, Crayfishing part of the year?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What was the season when he was Crayfishing, versus when he was Codpotting?

SQUIRES: Well, he concentrated mostly on Crayfish. He only did a wee bit of Codding, but there wasn't very much of it. He was a Cod fisherman when he was younger. Then went into Crayfishing in his twenties.

CRAWFORD: At what age did you actually go off fishing with your Father?

SQUIRES: I was probably about six. 

CRAWFORD: Prior to that age, I'm guessing that you grew up here in Halfmoon Bay. 

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you were a kid here, up to the point when your parents let you go off completely on your own, you would have spent time on or around the water. Would you be swimming, boating, fishing?

SQUIRES: Yep. We used to go down and get the dinghies - on an Easterly, like it is just now. We used to go and pinch some dinghies, actually. The wee pram dinghies. We used to go surfing at Butterfield's - places like that.

CRAWFORD: Surfing?

SQUIRES: Yeah, surfing in the dinghies. You know, learning how to handle a dinghy? You learn how to handle a boat, you learn how to handle a dinghy first. I could scull a dinghy with one hand, before I could ride a bike.

CRAWFORD: Was this you and an adult at the time? Or just you and your mates?

SQUIRES: Me and my mates. There was no adults. We were left pretty much to our own devices.

CRAWFORD: From an early age.

SQUIRES: From a very early age.

CRAWFORD: Five or six even, you were off on your own?

SQUIRES: Yeah. We were just young kids, doing our thing.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you do any fishing round the Bay, as a kid?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Linefishing?

SQUIRES: Just linefishing out of the dinghy, and that sort of thing,

CRAWFORD: Did you do any harvesting for Pāuas or Scallops?

SQUIRES: Yeah, we use to get Pāuas.

CRAWFORD: Mostly focussed on the inner part of Halfmoon Bay?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: As a kid, did you ever go over to Paterson Inlet?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Would you have spent more time here in Halfmoon Bay? Maybe occasionally go over to the Inlet?

SQUIRES: Occasionally go to Paterson's Inlet. There was one time - you talk about us kids being unsupervised - one of the kids fell off one of the boats at Golden Bay wharf, and it was just lucky there was a nurse about. They spotted him on the bottom. He was pretty good on the bottom. They dived over, got him and resuscitated him. He was a friend of mine. He was quite lucky. 

CRAWFORD: Did you spend most of your time in relatively close proximity to the Golden Bay wharf? Or did you get over to Ulva Island? Around the Inlet islands and coastline?

SQUIRES: We were all over the place, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Between your swimming, playing around in dinghies, doing some linefishing, some harvesting - were there any other types of water activities?

SQUIRES: We use to go on picnics with me Grandparents. He had a wee boat - he used to be a fisherman too, my Grandad. So, we used to go up the Inlet with them quite often. Go on picnics with them and extended members of the family, that sort of thing. Rowing clinker dinghies around. You know, just having fun. 

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?

SQUIRES: All up Paterson's Inlet. Just all over the place.

CRAWFORD: At some point in time you hit the age where you got the keys to a boat with a motor. When it was no longer just you sculling one-handed or two-handed around the harbour. Expanding your range. Roughly, when did you have access to a motorized vessel?

SQUIRES: When I was 14.

CRAWFORD: What kind of a boat did you have access to?

SQUIRES: A 45' twin-motor boat. Down the Chatham Islands.

CRAWFORD: How the heck did you get to the Chathams?

SQUIRES: I went down on a ship, a big ship. My Father was fishing down there. I ran away, left school. I didn't like school up the other side. So, I signed on as a cabin boy on the ship. Forged my Mother's signature, burned my uniform in the front yard, signed on the ship, and went to sea. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: You made a very clear demonstration that school uniform wasn't going to be part of your life. 

SQUIRES: Yes, correct.

CRAWFORD: And you said your Dad was already fishing at the Chathams?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: You signed on a vessel, and joined him over there?

SQUIRES: Well, I wasn't going to join him. But I did in the finish. When I run into him. He said "You might as well come with me, now that you're here."

CRAWFORD: Tell me about your Dad's boat. How big was it?

SQUIRES: He had a 45-footer, [Coralynn??]. Had two motors in it.

CRAWFORD: Was it geared primarily for Crayfishing?

SQUIRES: Crayfishing down there. It was all Crayfishing - during the boom 1968-69.

CRAWFORD: As a young guy, you got a full season over at the Chathams?

SQUIRES: Yeah, I did about a year down there.

CRAWFORD: Crayfishing with your Dad. Pretty much on the job, the whole time you were there? 

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: And the fishing was at the Chathams? Or based out of the Chathams, but fishing elsewhere?

SQUIRES: No, it was at the Chathams.

CRAWFORD: That's a season there. Then you came back to Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: I should backtrack you a wee bit. When I was down there, my Father left me in charge of the boat for about six weeks. I didn't take it fishing, I wasn't there to go fishing. But I was allowed to drive it round from port to port. 

CRAWFORD: Port to port, round the Chathams?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, for that six weeks you had a vessel at your disposal. You weren't doing any fishing then, but you were spending time in and around the water?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: That's good, thank you for the clarification. When you did come back here, was it straight into fishing? Or something else?

SQUIRES: Straight into fishing, with one of my Uncles. With two of my Uncles actually, and various other people. I crewed with them.

CRAWFORD: When you were fishing with them, was it a straight Cray operation as well?

SQUIRES: Crayfish and Cod.

CRAWFORD: In general, what were the season for Crayfishing, versus the season for Codding?

SQUIRES: You could Crayfish all year, really. Round about March we'd go Codding. March, April, May, June - the winter months.

CRAWFORD: Then July or August, you'd switch over to Crayfish?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you were fishing with your Uncles, what size boat was that?

SQUIRES: They had various-sized boats. One was a hundred-year-old boat, the Old Spray. She was a lovely old ship. I was on that. My other uncle [Mickey??], he had the Spray as well. I was with him on that, and my other uncle Peter. And then Peter ... I was with him on another boat, the [Indiva II??]. She sunk up the coast. Drowned three guys.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Starting about fifteen, you were working around Stewart Island on a variety of different boats, principally Cray/Cod operations. What kind of waters for that period of time? All the way around Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: Yep. And up the west coast.

CRAWFORD: Tell me about that. When would you go up to the west coast? Up Fiordland way?

SQUIRES: Just depends. We'd go up around ... we'd spend sometimes three or four or five weeks away up there.

CRAWFORD: What time of year typically would that be?

SQUIRES: That was round about November, December, January, February.

CRAWFORD: And that was Crayfish specifically?

SQUIRES: Yeah, Crayfish.

CRAWFORD: How long did that fishing pattern go till? Maybe the next break point is when you got your own boat? Or was there something else important that we need to know about - maybe you went somewhere else, or did something else?

SQUIRES: Yeah. I went to jail.

CRAWFORD: How old were you then?

SQUIRES: Eighteen.

CRAWFORD: And how long were you offline for?

SQUIRES: Four years.

CRAWFORD: Alright. You came back when you were 22. Did you go back into the fishery?

SQUIRES: Yeah, straight back in the fishery.

CRAWFORD: Working for somebody else, or working for yourself?

SQUIRES: Working for somebody else. Worked for my uncle, Peter. And then went and got my own boat. Well, run a boat for a guy.

CRAWFORD: Roughly what age were you when you were running your own vessel?

SQUIRES: I would have been 23.

CRAWFORD: Skippering somebody else's boat. Cray-Cod operations throughout?

SQUIRES: Mainly Cray, but it was Cray-Cod yeah.

CRAWFORD: What size of vessel was that?

SQUIRES: It was about a 40-foot aluminium boat. It did about 20 knots.

CRAWFORD: Were you fishing out of Halfmoon Bay?

SQUIRES: I was fishing out of Halfmoon Bay. I went up the west coast, fished up there for about four or five years. Brakesea and Dusky.

CRAWFORD: Primarily the south end of Fiordland?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Where else would you fish?

SQUIRES: Down here, Stewart Island. West coast, over by Mason's, and all that sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: Did you fish down the southwestern corner of the Island?

SQUIRES: Yeah, I been down there. I've run boats all round the place, right round the Island for different guys. I've skippered boats for various people, for various reasons. One of my Uncles got me, when one of my Cousins broke his arm on the Titan. Very cleverly put his arm between two boats - coming together. Broke it. So, my Uncle got me to run that for him for a season. There was another boat, the Privateer, fished that down the Cape. There was a guy there that was tied up with other business. Then another mate, he broke his arm.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'down the Cape', you mean East Cape?

SQUIRES: Yeah. Then another mate, he broke his arm - so I Skippered his boat for him, while he was getting mended. And that was round Mason's way. Codfish, all around there.

CRAWFORD: Doing all of this work, and some of the time you were Skippering other people's vessels. How long did that go for, until you had your own boat? 

SQUIRES: That went for quite a while actually, because I was pretty well looked after. I didn't really need to get my own boat, as such. 

CRAWFORD: So, through your twenties and then into your thirties. That seems like a long-term, relatively stable period. I'm sure there's other things going on, but in terms of your fishing experience, in terms of your time on the water - that's what you were doing?

SQUIRES: Yeah. I probably Skippered about twenty boats, including a trawler ... she was a big Korean, I think it was. Trawler that Sanfords were in joint ownership with.

CRAWFORD: Sanfords, the same company with the Fish Farm up in Big Glory Bay?

SQUIRES: Yeah. They run her aground down at Breaksea Islands down there. They run her ashore - there was about fifty or sixty guys on it. They just run her ashore. And they got me to Skipper the boat that took all the oil off it, and the nets.

CRAWFORD: So, you did some salvage ... well, not salvage. But it was also rescue in terms of people and gear?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Always based out of Halfmoon Bay through this time. Still pretty much every year going up to Breaksea and Dusky? It was a regular thing?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Did that pattern go on through your 30s then?

SQUIRES: No, no, no. I stopped that when I was about 30. I come back here, because I was having a family then. And I was just spending time away from young kids and that. So, I had to be at home more often. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of things did you do when you settled back in here?

SQUIRES: Fishing.

CRAWFORD: What kind of vessel?

SQUIRES: All sorts, really. I had all sorts of boats. Crewed for some guys. Skippered other boats.

CRAWFORD: But, for the most part, dayfishing then though?

SQUIRES: Yep. Yep.

CRAWFORD: So that you're back home, at the end of the day. I'm presuming that fishing was going to be outside the Halfmoon and Horsehoe Bays, maybe fishing over in the Titi Islands as well? How far afield?

SQUIRES: Yeah, we'd stay away for one or two nights at a time.

CRAWFORD: You had a freezer on the boat?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Down southeast way, how far would you go typically for your one- or two-day trips?

SQUIRES: We'd go to Port Adventure, basically. Generally, we could fish that in a day. If you left about two o'clock in the morning, you got the fishing done, and you'd be home by four o'clock in the afternoon. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That takes you into your thirties. You had a young family, so you were doing predominantly dayfishing or two-dayfishing. What's the next natural break point, when there was a change in either activity or location? 

SQUIRES: None, really. It’s always just been around here.

CRAWFORD: At some point you switched over into charter operations. When did that start?

SQUIRES: That was about twenty years ago. There was a guy over here that was charter fishing. He was a truck driver, and he didn't know much. So, I use to go out with him, and show him the ropes. Show him around a wee bit. And then he got me to run his boat for him.

CRAWFORD: Which boat was that?

SQUIRES: It was a boat called ... it sunk, just now. Kevin Anderson's boat. [Milana??].

CRAWFORD: It was specifically for recreational fishing charters?

SQUIRES: Correct.

CRAWFORD: And specifically, handline fishing?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: When he had that operation, and you were helping him, was that just pretty much during the summer months?

SQUIRES: He run it all year round, but I'd help him out and do that.

CRAWFORD: And when you were helping him, was it like a day a week, a day a month?

SQUIRES: Oh no. It was just about every day.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you switched over from commercial fishing to help him out. I get the impression that he wasn't terribly experienced, so you were effectively the Skipper?

SQUIRES: He wasn't all that experienced, no.

CRAWFORD: The point I'm trying to get to, is that although it was his boat - and he may or may not have been there - you were pretty much Skippering that boat on the recreational fishing charters? 

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And that was about 1995? Thereabouts?

SQUIRES: Yeah, round about then.

CRAWFORD: Was that the beginning of what would become a consistent recreational charter occupation for you?

SQUIRES: it gave me a taste for it. I went back fishing, and when I was about fifty-odd, I went back to it.

CRAWFORD: And how old are you now?

SQUIRES: 62.

CRAWFORD: So, about twelve years ago, back around 2003 - you went back to commercial fishing for a bit ...

SQUIRES: Yeah. Then I became a charter operator. 

CRAWFORD: Which boat?

SQUIRES: The one I've got now.

CRAWFORD: The Laloma?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What size is that?

SQUIRES: A 40-footer.

CRAWFORD: Was this a boat you purchased?

SQUIRES: My friends owned it. There was four guys that owned it, and were looking for somebody to run it, so they got me to do it. And thought "Ah yeah, ok. I'll do this." And then I made them an offer for the boat. I run it for about two years, and got them to change various things on it. And then I bought it off them. 

CRAWFORD: So, basically the same kind of arrangement as before. At least in the first couple of years, other owners, but you were the Skipper?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'make changes' - what kind of changes?

SQUIRES: Different things to make it a bit safer. Like the rudder was made of wood, and it was just welded with shitty old steel and that. I didn't like that, so I made them put a steel one on it. And put power steering in it. All that sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Upgrades in a navigational sense. But did it change the nature of the fishing operations?

SQUIRES: It changed the nature of the boat. It made her safer.

CRAWFORD: Did it change the fishing gear, or anything about the way you fished?

SQUIRES: No, no.

CRAWFORD: Ok. These charters are mostly for tourists that want to come over to the Island, go out and fish, and get a feed of Cod?

SQUIRES: Correct.

CRAWFORD: I've heard some people say they have half-day vs full-day charters. Is that the same kind of thing with you?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: For your half-day charters, roughly what region would you focus on?

SQUIRES: Out round the Islands.

CRAWFORD: Around the Northern Titis?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Would your fishing charters take you down to the southeast corner of Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: Yeah, they can do. I've been there a few times. But I prefer to stick around here, because it’s safer water, and close to home. And you always get shelter around the Islands.

CRAWFORD: Right. In terms of full-day charters, would it be spending more time just in the same region? Or would you go further afield?

SQUIRES: I'd go further afield. 

CRAWFORD: Where would you go for full-day trips?

SQUIRES: Been down here, Port Adventure.

CRAWFORD: East Cape?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ever down to Lords River?

SQUIRES: Yep, I been down there.

CRAWFORD: And up northwest, how far would you have gone?

SQUIRES: We don't go too far up there, cause the fishing's not all that good. 

CRAWFORD: So, there's no real reason to. You said you did some fishing further off - towards Ruapuke?

SQUIRES: Yeah, Ruapuke. I used to Crayfish over here. I use to spend a lot of time on Ruapuke Island, because I've got a lot of cousins there. When I was a kid, I used to get taken over by my Dad, ride the horses, and all that sort of stuff.

CRAWFORD: Were you primarily spending time on the Island itself, or were you running around in dinghies or other boats?

SQUIRES: Dinghies.

CRAWFORD: Spending time on and around the water, even over there. Not so much in the business operation ... or were you doing some commercial fishing around Ruapuke?

SQUIRES: I was commercial fishing around. But I've been there since I was a kid, sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: You are familiar with the waters there?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Over the past 15-20 years, when you've been running the charter operation, specifically Laloma - is there a seasonality to it in terms of the charters? Mostly during the summer months?

SQUIRES: Yeah, it’s mostly during the summer.

CRAWFORD: For you, when does it pick up?

SQUIRES: About now, but we get good months. March and April. I've had really good months in March and April. 

CRAWFORD: January, February, March, April. Those four months are the bulk of your charter work?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: During that four-month period when you do go out, realizing its weather-dependent, would you figure you'd be on the water say four times a week?

SQUIRES: Probably more. You know, there's some years when I was doing three trips a day. 

CRAWFORD: It would probably end up being more like five or six days a week during the summer months?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: No matter which way the wind's blowing, you're likely going to find a place where you can fish? Unless it really blows.

SQUIRES: Like today. [both chuckle]

CRAWFORD. Yeah. I was lucky to catch you on a wind day. Were you still running Cray-Cod potting operations while you were doing the charters?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Charters were pretty much taking up your whole time? 

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: For all the time that you were doing your fishing charter work, did you ever do any other kind of contract work where you were moving people and gear from one place to another? Or you were basically doing the Laloma fishing trips, and that was the business?

SQUIRES: That was the business.

CRAWFORD: Does that bring us up to the present, in terms of your history and experience around New Zealand coastal waters?

SQUIRES: Yep.

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: I'd like to get a sense of how much you think Māori, the Indigenous knowledge system here, has influenced your understanding of the world, especially the marine world. It could be ancestry, it could be friends, it could be crew mates, it could be just general interest. If you rated that influence of Māori culture and thinking on your knowledge ...

SQUIRES: Medium.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Same thing, but on the Science side? How much has it influenced your understanding of the marine world?

SQUIRES: High.

CRAWFORD: For anybody that says High or Very high, I always ask them why? Why would you rank it as High?

SQUIRES: Because I take note. I watch a lot of documentaries, nature documentaries and things like that, and take note. David Attenborough and things like that. Take note of what's happening around. I'm interested in the world and nature. And especially in Orcas. Anything that I have anything to do with. Whales, Sharks, you know?

CRAWFORD: When you're out there - taking these recreational fishermen out hand-lining ... are you the strong silent type? Or are you chatty when you're out there? 

SQUIRES: I give them shit. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: You give them shit?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Why do you give them shit?

SQUIRES: I just joke with them. Just banter.

CRAWFORD: I understand. But they're going to ask you questions about the places that you're fishing - the birds, the ecosystem, the currents, all that kind of stuff. Is that all part of your charter operation?

SQUIRES: Yeah. I tell people, if they ask me something specific. They want to know something that's not a stupid question. Mainly, it's just banter. People are just going out for a good time. Just to be entertained. 

CRAWFORD: Right. 

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: You were telling me before that the old-timers said the west side of Stewart Island was sharky?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Did they ever reckon there was a reason why that region might have been sharky?

SQUIRES: Probably the Seals.

CRAWFORD: At that time, when you consider Stewart Island as a whole, were there more Seals around Codfish that anywhere else?

SQUIRES: And over here. This place here was also renowned for Sharks, White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: Which place? 

SQUIRES: In Smoky Beach.

CRAWFORD: Right. So, this whole region - the northwest end of the Island. 

SQUIRES: Right about here was renowned for White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: People reckoned that was because of the density of Seals around there?

SQUIRES: Possibly, yes.

CRAWFORD: Was there anything else that anybody would have said back then? Anything about the water, the currents, the tides ... anything else that might have been suitable for the White Pointers in particular?

SQUIRES: No. It was just always known that that's where they were. We didn't even think that there would be so many of them out here.

CRAWFORD: You mean, so many White Pointers off the Bays here - out among the Northern Titi Islands?

SQUIRES: Yeah. You didn't see them.

CRAWFORD: Do you recall the old-timers ever talking about interactions between White Pointers and people over on the northwest corner or Stewart Island? I mean, the White Pointer that you and your Dad found at Mason's was nearly dead. So, it wasn't as if that Shark came up to your boat, or interacted with you in any way. You interacted with it.

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers ever tell any stories about people that were fishing or doing other things, northwest corner Stewart Island - when there would have been White Pointer - Human interactions up there?

SQUIRES: Trying to remember. I do remember stories, but I can't be specific about it. It’s just sort of stuff you hear about, and you pass it off.

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] Back in the day, when people talked about White Pointers up the northwest corner of Stewart Island ... was there ever talk that Level 3 interactions - the Circling behaviour? Or was it just Observations, maybe Swim-Bys?

SQUIRES: The divers often talked about being frightened by the odd Shark. You know, getting a scare off them. But they weren't attacked. There was nobody ever attacked.

CRAWFORD: People getting scared by, even seeing an White Pointer ... When a Pāua diver's in the water, and they see one of these White Pointers, it’s going to put some emotion into you. But back in the day at Mason's, did the White Pointers ever show any heightened interest in your boat or you guys?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: So, it would be more along the lines of Level 2 Swim-By?

SQUIRES: Yeah. There was the odd occasion that I have heard that, whether that's exaggerated or not, that they've had to get out of the water or something when they've shown a bit too much interest. I guess it's the guys just being a bit frightened. 

CRAWFORD: Understandable. Back in the day, do you remember hearing fishermen or anybody else talk about White Pointers out around the Titi Islands?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: What about Paterson Inlet?

SQUIRES: No, not in the old days.

CRAWFORD: There might have been incidences, once in a great while. But it certainly wasn't a regular thing?

SQUIRES: It wasn't a talking point. You knew that they were up around, but we certainly didn't think that they were out here. We hadn't seen any evidence of it. 

CRAWFORD: And I think, based on what you've said and what I've heard from other people, if there were observations, even observations at Level 2 or Level 3 or Level 4 - people would have talked.

SQUIRES: Of course, they would have. I mean, I've never seen a live White Pointer swimming, until they started doing tagging and the Shark cage diving. In my life.

CRAWFORD: When was that - the first live White Pointer you ever saw swimming around?

SQUIRES: Seven years ago, started seeing them.

CRAWFORD: Ok. We'll put a place holder on that, and we'll come back to it. Still back in the day, on the other side, either in Foveaux Strait itself or on the south end of the South Island, do you ever remember anybody talking about other places where White Pointers were known to occur?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: So, nothing about Ruapuke, or Bluff or Oreti Beach?

SQUIRES: No. No.

CRAWFORD: Last question then, for the early days. On the northwest corner, did the old-timers or anybody ever give any indication that there was any kind of seasonality to the White Pointers there? That they changed in terms of the size or the number of animals through the seasons?

SQUIRES: No, not really. It wasn't sort of talked about much. It didn't bother them.

CRAWFORD: It didn't come up, at least to your recollection?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Any indication on the northwest corner of Stewart Island that there were individual White Pointers that maybe had taken up residency around there?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's go back to your time at the Chathams. Even though it was a brief period of time that you were over there, did any of the old-timers talk about White Pointers there? 

SQUIRES: Yeah, there was quite a few guys ... they knew that there was more Sharks down there. They'd become pretty aware of them.

CRAWFORD: And when you were there, you were Crayfishing if I recall correctly?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Were there also setnetters or Codpotters out there as well?

SQUIRES: Mainly it was Crayfishing. The Crayfish boom.

CRAWFORD: Any Pāua diving happening there at the time?

SQUIRES: Not really as such, no. There might have been a wee bit, but we used to get them off the shore at low tide. There were shitloads of them.

CRAWFORD: Ok, so primarily Crayfishing. These were Craypots?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: So, by nature of the gear - was there any kind of interaction that you heard about at the Chathams, between Crayfisherman and White Pointers?

SQUIRES: No. It’s only recently that I've heard about it from various guys. Like the guy that got bitten.

CRAWFORD: Are we talking about Kina? Kina Scollay?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What do you know about what happened to him?

SQUIRES: All I know is that he got taken by the arm. Got bitten by the arm.

CRAWFORD: What was he doing?

SQUIRES: Diving.

CRAWFORD: Free-diving for Pāua?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: He was out there free-diving for shellfish. Did he see anything before the animal bit him?

SQUIRES: No, he didn't. He just got taken, and let go again.

CRAWFORD: The White Pointer had him for a brief period of time, or towed him around, or what?

SQUIRES: Not sure how long it had him for, or if it towed him around or not. But I would say it would have. He didn't lose a limb or anything. So, it wasn't all that serious. It bit him and spat him out.

CRAWFORD: Do you recall, prior to Kina's incident - anybody else getting a Level 4 attitude or attack at the Chathams? Didn't necessarily have to be a full bite. But did anybody else at the Chathams, prior to Kina, have that kind of Level 4 encounter with a White Pointer? That you knew of?

SQUIRES: No. 

CRAWFORD: You said White Pointers were known to be around the Chathams, and people would see them. It would have been Level 1 observations, and maybe some Level 2 encounters?

SQUIRES: Enough food around there for them. There's heaps of food.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'food', specifically what do you mean?

SQUIRES: Well, there's all sorts of animals in the water and that. Big fish. Probably Groper they're chasing. 

CRAWFORD: What about Seals over at the Chathams?

SQUIRES: Yeah, there's quite a few Seals there.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Moving from that time. After 17ish, you started Codpotting and Crayfishing in a much broader sense, going further afield. Let’s deal first with Fiordland. You fished seasons over a long period of time, up Fiordland way. Did the old-timers ever talk about White Pointers up there?

SQUIRES: No. Never seen a Shark up there.

CRAWFORD: Never saw one, Never heard about any up there?

SQUIRES: Never heard about any, never saw one. We had shitloads of Orcas and that. There were Orcas going through. Still in my mind, I've got this photo of me steaming along doing about 20 knots - and this Orca came out of the water directly in front of me, and rolled over! Jumped out of the water, and rolled over, and looked at me with its eye, and went back down again. Nobody else seen it. The most magnificent sight I've ever seen. Honestly. On a beautiful calm day. It’s burned itself in here, you know? I can still see that.

CRAWFORD: That animal was coming toward you, or coming across your bow?

SQUIRES: Just straight out in front of me. Just straight out of the water.

CRAWFORD: Straight up?

SQUIRES: Yeah, straight up. Rolled, and back. And looked at me.

CRAWFORD: You were under steam at the time?

SQUIRES: I was steaming - doing about 20 knots straight towards it. It come just straight up out of the water. 

CRAWFORD: Did that animal hang around, or that was it?

SQUIRES: That was it.

CRAWFORD: You didn't see it surface?

SQUIRES: Didn't see it again.

CRAWFORD: I bet you were probably looking hard?

SQUIRES: Yeah, I was.

CRAWFORD: Where was this?

SQUIRES: Breaksea Island. Just steaming past Breaksea Island out of Breaksea Sound.

CRAWFORD: There have been a lot of changes people have told me about with regard to the abundance and the distribution of Seals over the decades. Back in the day, when you were in you late teens, early twenties. You said there were quite a few Seals over at Codfish, and maybe the southern end of Mason's. What was the Seal presence like along this northeast side of the Island?

SQUIRES: There wasn't a hell of a lot of Seals. You'd get the odd one around here. But the Seal colonies have always been sort of around the Islands and that. Around the Titi Islands, and what have you.

CRAWFORD: So, even back in the day ... there were some Seals out here in the Titii Islands?

SQUIRES: Oh yeah, there were heaps of Seals around there.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember when the numbers of Seals started to really increase?

SQUIRES: They've always been there. We've always seen shitloads of them. When you were diving ... I did a wee bit of diving, not much. I didn't like it in the water, with anything I didn't control. [chuckles] You used to get hassled by Seals more than anything else. We worried about big bull Seals, more than the White Pointers. We never even thought about them. If you'd thought about them, you wouldn't have got in the bloody water. 

CRAWFORD: Some people talk about an increase, like a dramatic increase, in the abundance of the Seals.

SQUIRES: Yeah, there's been an increase alright. But I think it’s sort of hard to say, really. You notice them on certain days, and then on other days you don't see too many of them. So, they're probably out feeding. 

CRAWFORD: Year to year, even over the past decade, have you noticed an increase in Seals?

SQUIRES: Yeah, I have. Over the last decade, yeah.

CRAWFORD: We're kind of going off-track on the Seal path, but I mean they are very few people like you that have spent the amount of time on the water, especially the years prior to the cage tour dive operations, and it seems it was a noticeable trend over the past decades.

SQUIRES: It is, yeah. Especially around these areas here. Like, there's always been a hell of a lot around Bench. But I figure that they've sort of moved from here, quite a few of them, and populated and gone to different islands and what have you.

CRAWFORD: But definitely, the Seals were there before, in the Titi Islands, and there has been an increase over the past decades?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: In your middle years, when you were doing more fishing, further afield. Did you ever hear about or see any White Pointers down the southwest corner of the Island?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: On the other side, did you fish the Traps any significant amount?

SQUIRES: Yeah, I fished down there.

CRAWFORD: Anything down there by way of White Pointers, in your experience?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: East Cape, or the Lords River region?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's bring it closer to home. What about Paterson Inlet?

SQUIRES: Nope, haven't seen any up there.

CRAWFORD: Never heard about?

SQUIRES: Lately, I've heard about lately there's been.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But I'm still talking your middle ages now, when you first were a commercial guy - that period of time. Nothing in Paterson Inlet by way of sightings or interactions or anything back then?

SQUIRES: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s move into the phase in your career when you were doing largely dayfishing - one or two days at a time, out of Halfmoon Bay. Anything change during that time, in terms of people starting to see White Pointers around here?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: When do you reckon was the beginning of the observed presence of White Pointers, off the northeast side of Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: Well, that would have been when they started their Shark cage activities and that. We'd never seen them. I didn't know they were there. I didn't even know then why they were doing it - to tell the honest truth. Well, apart from DOC who were doing the tagging. 

CRAWFORD: Let’s talk about DOC. When do you figure was the first year DOC was out doing that tagging work?

SQUIRES: Seven or eight years ago, I guess it would have been.

CRAWFORD: Did you know at the time that they were out there, working specifically with questions about the White Pointers?

SQUIRES: I knew they were tagging them for scientific studies.

CRAWFORD: Right. In the way that they might be tagging Seals or Sea Lions? Or they might be tagging some kinds of birds. It wasn't a big deal that DOC was out there doing White Pointer tagging studies?

SQUIRES: No, it was not a big deal.

CRAWFORD: If I'm reading this correctly, DOC's research wasn't necessarily in response to anybody observing a huge increase in the White Pointers.

SQUIRES: I'm not sure what their reasons were for doing it. I guess they must have observed it, they must have seen it.

CRAWFORD: Well, I'll make sure when I interview Clinton Duffy and Malcom Francis - if they'll let me interview them - I'll make sure that I ask them, back in the day, what the original motivation was for their very first year of tagging. 

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you recall that DOC was out there working, prior to the Shark cage dive operations starting up?

SQUIRES: Yeah, they were prior to it. They were doing it before, I think, the Shark cage divers were. Or round about the same time, but probably before.

CRAWFORD: Based on whatever you might remember, either from talking to the guys ... I heard there were some DOC meetings down at the community centre. Do you remember ever hearing about why DOC said they were tagging the White Pointers?

SQUIRES: No. Just to take notice of their migration patterns. 

CRAWFORD: Where they were going?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Do you know what kind of tagging DOC was doing? Whether or not they were using different types of tags? Did you ever hear anything about that?

SQUIRES: No. I seen the tags in them. They're tags that are about that long, and they stick in the back, just below their fin there.

CRAWFORD: In a general sense, what were some of the more important lessons that DOC and NIWA were learning from these White Pointer tagging projects? What were they learning about the Sharks, in terms of where they were and where they were going?

SQUIRES: They learned that they travelled vast distances, and they went to different places they never thought they went. 

CRAWFORD: When you say 'vast', what kinds of places?

SQUIRES: Australia, all over the place.

CRAWFORD: With regards to the hydroacoustic pingers and receivers, do you have any sense of what kind of patterns or lessons they were learning about what was happening with the White Pointers on a more local scale?

SQUIRES: Well, I learned that there were quite a few that did go up the Inlet.

CRAWFORD: Paterson Inlet?

SQUIRES: Yes. They had a buoy out there with one of the receivers on it. And there was another one at Bench. They were all round the place, really. There was another one at Kanetatoe. It's the wee island straight out.

CRAWFORD: Ok, I think I know the one. Would it be fair to say that people, when they started to hear about or maybe see the results of some of the tagging - especially the hydroacoustic tagging, because that's more of a local focus ... would it be fair to say that people were surprised about the number of different White Pointers being recorded?

SQUIRES: Oh, shit yes.

CRAWFORD: People were starting to talk. This wasn't just like one or two out there. There were dozens - maybe more.

SQUIRES: They estimated maybe about 60, I think.

CRAWFORD: Would you reckon that it was kind of a surprise to people, that these White Pointers were actually in Paterson Inlet?

SQUIRES: It was.

CRAWFORD: At the same time the data were coming in from the tagging project, the DOC research project about these animals and evidence that they were there in Paterson Inlet. Still nobody was really seeing them up there, right?

SQUIRES: No. It wasn't till a wee bit after the small boats started getting harassed. The Cop's boat was attacked.

CRAWFORD: Specifically with regard to Paterson Inlet, what do you figure was the first you heard about somebody seeing a White Pointer in the Inlet?

SQUIRES: I  heard about ... would've been four or five years ago.

CRAWFORD: So, well after the beginning of the DOC tagging program, well after their hydroacoustic study.

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: That kind of underscores the idea that the DOC research program was showing that the White Pointers were there. But it was still a matter of years after that, before somebody actually saw one of them in the Inlet?

SQUIRES: Well, that’s up the Inlet. Although it wasn't years after, as such. It was about the same time. Small boats, dinghies and that, were being hassled. They were being chomped on.

CRAWFORD: Before we move on from Paterson Inlet, are there any significant places in Paterson Inlet where there would be a large number of Seals?

SQUIRES: No, no.

CRAWFORD: Not really. They're going to be mostly on the outside?

SQUIRES: Yeah. You used to get them up the farm, the Salmon Farm. They're attracted to the Salmon Farm.

CRAWFORD: So, maybe Big Glory Bay - a Seal colony round there? Or do the Seals go in and come out again? 

SQUIRES: There use to be a couple of Seal colonies based there, yeah.

CRAWFORD: But no place else, really to speak of, in the rest of Paterson Inlet?

SQUIRES: No, no. Just a wee few here and there. They used to congregate up there.

CRAWFORD: When you come out of Paterson Inlet, when you think about Seal colonies especially, where there might be pupping? From Paterson Inlet northwest, what kind of places might there be lots of Seals?

SQUIRES: I haven't seen any colonies down that way to speak of, as such. Just scattered little groups.

CRAWFORD: What about the other side, to the southeast?

SQUIRES: Yeah, down here there's Seals.

CRAWFORD: So, East Cape down to Lords River maybe? Around there?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And then of course, out in the northern Titi Islands, Bench and north?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Getting back to Big Glory and the Salmon Farm ... did you ever hear about White Pointers going into Big Glory? 

SQUIRES: No. Sevengillers and that sort of thing. But not Whites.

CRAWFORD: Alright. It’s probably time to move into more recent times. From the DOC tagging days on. Do you figure that there has been an increase in all levels of White Pointer encounters around here? Level 1 Observation, Level 2 Swim-By, Level 3 Interest? Level 4 Attitide?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Increase in the absolute number of all of those incidences? So, people have seen more White Pointers generally?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: In terms of the places where these observations and encounters are happening, have there been corresponding increases of incidences over northwest Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Has there been a decrease in sharkyness of the northwest quarter, or is it pretty much the same as before?

SQUIRES: I'd say it’s stayed much the same. You get bugger-all levels up that way. It's all down here. You just don't see them. I mean, you don't go looking for them. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, the increase has taken place mostly off Halfmoon Bay and Horseshoe Bay?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And in and around the Titi Islands?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Has there been a corresponding increase down round the East Cape region?

SQUIRES: I don't know. I haven't heard of any. Every encounter that I've ever heard about has been out round this area.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You also mentioned, earlier on, that back in the day you had spent considerable time over at Ruapuke?

SQUIRES. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And that you also know people who live there, or fish there.

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Any corresponding increase in White Pointer incidences over there? Over the past ten years, that you've heard of?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Anything else along the northern side of Foveaux Strait?

SQUIRES: No, I haven't heard of anything.

CRAWFORD: It's just ... there's something important going on here.

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Alright. In terms of the interactions that have been taking place off of Halfmoon and Horseshoe, and in amongst the Titi Islands, Bench Island to North Island region. You've said there has been a general increase in encounters. Has there been a change in the relative proportion of Level 1s, Level 2s, Level 3s, Level 4s? Because if you increase the total abundance, the proportions of the different Levels can stay the same, or they can change. After the increase in sightings - has there been more of one Level than another?

SQUIRES: Yes. Everything's increased. I know fishermen, that have been fishing longer than me - Philip Smith, people like that. And Gary Neave was another one. A lot of these guys have said to me they've never seen a White Pointer before either. So, it’s not just me that's saying that. 

CRAWFORD: And that clearly comes out of the interviews I've done here on the Island. This is the power of asking multiple people the same kinds of questions. You might have one person that's maybe a bit off, but you're unlikely to get ten that have all misjudged. Especially when they're seasoned veterans.

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Have you heard of anybody feeding the White Pointers? Anybody in the last short period of time, during the last two years over at Edwards Island, or anyplace else? Have you ever heard about anybody feeding the White Pointers?

SQUIRES: My Wife had heard that they were taking some scraps out on the ferry, and they were trying to feed the Sharks. Because she used to give them fish scraps to feed the Birds. 

CRAWFORD: By 'the ferry' - do you mean Halfmoon Bay-Bluff ferry?

SQUIRES: Yeah, Yeah. Real Journeys.

CRAWFORD: That was within the last two years?

SQUIRES: It would have been about three years ago, I guess yeah.

CRAWFORD: But they're not Shark cage tour dive operators, so there's no prohibition. If you and I wanted to jump in your boat, a non-Shark cage diving boat, there's nothing stopping you and I from going over there, and throwing some Cod frames into the water over at Edwards Island. There is something preventing the cage tour diver operators from doing that. It clearly wasn't a constraint early on, because they were feeding the White Pointers. But I've heard some reports that people from around Bluff, day-trippers coming over to see the White Pointers. I mean you fish over there in the Islands, it’s one of your primary fishing areas. Do you see these day-trippers coming in around Edwards or the other Northern Titi Islands? Day-trippers just kind of hanging around, looking for the Sharks?

SQUIRES: I've seen one or two, yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, it happens. When you do see them, does it look as though they're feeding the White Pointers?

SQUIRES: No, no.

CRAWFORD: Some people have talked about it, but it wasn't clear whether or to what extent it was happening. But that relates to another question. Over the past ten years, have you noticed a major increase in the amount of boat traffic around the Northern Titi Islands?

SQUIRES: Oh, it's always been quite a few boats around there.

CRAWFORD: People going out for a feed of Cod, that kind of recreational thing?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: But you haven't noticed a big escalation of boats seeming to come over to see the White Pointers specifically?

SQUIRES: No, no. I haven't noticed an escalation of boats going over to view them or anything. You get the odd one that goes over to have a look. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. I think we need to take another detour and talk about White Pointer following behaviour. Actually, we need to talk about the Bays first. Once again, you are one of the few people ... you're a little bit on the older side of things, and you have a near continuous record of what's happened around here. What is your recollection of White Pointers coming into either Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay?

SQUIRES: Just that they've been seen. Like you've interviewed Joe [Cave] I assume?  Well Joe's seen more - he's set nets for them. To catch them.

CRAWFORD: But, when you were a kid growing up here ...

SQUIRES: No, no, no. I've seen the odd one, that they've caught. They've netted, and they've caught it, and hung it off the end of the wharf.

CRAWFORD: But prior to that, do you have any recollection from when you were like a 17-year-old and younger - of either seeing or hearing from the old-timers telling you about any other White Pointers coming into Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay?

SQUIRES: I've heard the odd one about them being at Deadman's. And I do know that they stopped, they wouldn't let us fillet fish in the Bay for that reason. Because they thought it was attracting Sharks in.

CRAWFORD: Deadman's was a place where people would regularly see them, maybe not always?

SQUIRES: Mostly just while cleaning, yeah.

CRAWFORD: But they would regularly anchor or moor there?

SQUIRES: Just drift around and clean your fish.

CRAWFORD: If you didn't have your catch cleaned by the time you came in, you went to Deadman's. And overboard goes the offal and the Cod frames and whatever. 

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Was that the case in your younger days as well? Had it always been the place?

SQUIRES: Everywhere, anywhere. Depending on where the breeze come from, really.

CRAWFORD: Right. But what I’m trying to get to is, Deadman's didn't become a cleaning station anytime recently. It’s always been a place that was used as a cleaning station. 

SQUIRES: Yeah, always.

CRAWFORD: When you were a kid, do you remember people talking about White Pointers coming up to Deadman's or interacting with boats there in any way?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: But you said there was some kind of rule that came in. So, there was some discussion. Was this after Joe Cave and his nets?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Not before?

SQUIRES: Not before.

CRAWFORD: Was it the case that, once White Pointers were seen in the Bay, and maybe Joe's nets went out and caught them, there was a discussion and a general agreement in the community that people would not clean their fish at Deadman's?

SQUIRES: In the Bay, period. Just clean them elsewhere.

CRAWFORD: Right, Just not in the Horseshoe Bay or Halfmoon Bay region. Do it outside?

SQUIRES: Yeah. Correct.

CRAWFORD: Other than Deadman's, what other places have been used as cleaning stations?

SQUIRES: The whole Bay.

CRAWFORD: So, wherever?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Leask Bay, even? Or wherever, depending on the wind?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Prior to Joe Cave hearing about White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay, and then him getting Shark nets strung up specifically for that - had you heard, even on occasion, that White Pointers were coming into Halfmoon or Horseshoe? 

SQUIRES: Yeah, I had heard on occasion. Years ago. You'd see the odd photograph and that. But nothing that was, you know ...

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about people who would have targeted White Pointers in the Bay - using baited hooks on drums or anything like that?

SQUIRES: No, no.

CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember hearing about people that had this impression that there was a line at the end of Horseshoe and Halfmoon? That if a White Pointer came in - across that line - it would be dealt with? That it would be shot, or it would be killed in any way posible?

SQUIRES: I've heard people saying that.

CRAWFORD: That kind of thinking could have been for protection of the kids down at the bathing beaches, or playing in dinghies, or whatever the case may be.  

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you ever recall, prior to Joe Cave's nets, any kind of coordinated or even personal undertakings that when a White Pointer came in to the Bay, people actually went out in order to shoot or otherwise kill them?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: What was the first time you yourself remember hearing about a White Pointer coming into either of the two bays?

SQUIRES: Probably be about twenty.

CRAWFORD: Twenty years ago?

SQUIRES: No, I'd have been about twenty.

CRAWFORD: At the age of twenty. So, we're talking forty years ago?

SQUIRES: Yeah. Forty years ago. It was a very rare sight to see.

CRAWFORD: We're talking once every five years or so?

SQUIRES: If somebody seen one, it was ...

CRAWFORD: It was a big deal?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And when people did see them, were they further out or did they ever come right in close?

SQUIRES: Oh, they said they'd been in closer. But you know, you don't believe anything until you see it with your own eyes. You know, sort of fishermen's stories.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Rare events, no interactions. Not even Swim-Bys. Just Observations, Level 1s?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And very rare?

SQUIRES: Very rare.

CRAWFORD: When do you remember Joe Cave getting the Shark nets made?

SQUIRES: Ah hell, it was ages ago. I think it was about ... has to be about 25 years ago.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember where he fished them?

SQUIRES: I'm pretty sure it was just outside the Bay a wee bit - outside Horseshoe. I did get told he had two off the Nuggets, he got two Sharks just off the Nuggets - just outside the wharf there.

CRAWFORD: The Shark nets may have been fished inside sometimes, but for the most part fished on the outside of the Bays. So, the White Pointers encountered the nets before they came in, rather than ...

SQUIRES: No, I think it was in the Bay. I'm pretty sure that they were off the Nugget - two of them off the Nugget. Straight off the wharf. You see the wharf? And the wee Nugget there?

CRAWFORD: Oh yeah, yeah. Ok.

SQUIRES: Just there. I didn't see it, but that's what I got told is where he put them.

CRAWFORD: Right. Over how long a period of time, do you figure those Shark nets ran?

SQUIRES: I wouldn't have a clue on that. I don't know how long he had them out, before he caught them.

CRAWFORD: What I'm trying to think of is ... the White Pointers got protected a while ago. 

SQUIRES: No, no. Not very long.

CRAWFORD: I'd have to go back and check my interview notes with Joe - but those nets weren't fishing after he moved up to Christchurch. So, there was a distinct period of time when those Shark nets were out there. And then it was over. Roughly how many White Pointers do you remember hearing about or seeing coming in from his nets?

SQUIRES: About four, I think.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember the story where multiple White Pointers were captured in his nets?

SQUIRES: No. Just two.

CRAWFORD: That was a significant event I've heard about so many times from different people. Do you remember the circumstances associated with that event?

SQUIRES: No. Not at all.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about people saying that there were White Pointers, plural, coming into the Bay, on a regular daily basis?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you see them?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember what people said, in terms of how many White Pointers there were - travelling together in the Bay?

SQUIRES: Just a couple.

CRAWFORD: And that they came in more than once, like repeatedly?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Maybe not every day, but ... 

SQUIRES: A period of time.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about people going down to the wharf to see these White Pointers when they came in?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Did you hear that they had come in close enough that they could be seen from the wharf?

SQUIRES: I did hear that.

CRAWFORD: And it was a pair of White Pointers that you heard about, but you didn't see them?

SQUIRES: No, I didn't see them. So, it's only hearsay.

CRAWFORD: That's fine. Remember it’s all three sources of knowledge: the old-timers, your own observations, and what you heard from contemporaries you trust. Were you there at the wharf, when Joe's Shark nets came in - when the two White Pointers were brought in?

SQUIRES: No, I wasn't here at that time. I was away fishing.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember hearing about it?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What did they say - when they brought the two White Pointers to the wharf?

SQUIRES: Just that they brought the Sharks in, and took the head off, and pulled the teeth out. And I think they dropped the carcass out the Bay.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember if they cut the guts open?

SQUIRES: I don't remember that at all. I would say they would have done that. I know Joe. Because they would have done that to deter the others.

CRAWFORD: But Joe said he wasn't here. It took me a couple of interviews to figure out, suss out what actually happened. And then when I went up to Christchurch and interviewed Joe ... he said he was up in Wanaka or someplace. The reason why I'm going all the way into this story, is that when they cut open the White Pointers' guts - I've heard they were full of Cod frames. That’s one of those things that kind of locks itself into the community mindset. For a couple of different reasons: first - proximity, second - more than one White Pointer, and they were swimming together. People started thinking "Oh, Jeeze. These animals are not necessarily the kind of independent, rogue, individual predators that everybody thought they always were." When you get at least two animals swimming together, then when those animals are caught together, probably fully expecting there to be Seals or something in their guts. But it was fish - specifically fish frames. It kind of puts into a new light, the relationship between we Humans and these White Pointers. 

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: One of the people who was over at Paterson Inlet when these White Pointers came in to the wharf, he heard chatter back and forth about this. He had heard that the White Pointers were coming in regularly, had heard that people were going down to see them, and heard when they got caught. He heard there were actually three White Pointers, one large and two small. If that was true, what do you think could account for it?

SQUIRES: I think they go around in family groups.

CRAWFORD: Do you have any other knowledge - from any source, the old-timers, other people, books you've read, conversations you had - to indicate that there would be that kind of social behaviour in White Pointers?

SQUIRES: No, none. Just personally what I think, what I've seen. Not too much. But I've just seen them together. And the only reason I can think of that, is that they're a family group. I can't see why two rogues would hook up.

CRAWFORD: Or three?

SQUIRES: It’s got to be a family group. I think they hunt in packs, I think it’s a family group. I have heard of people that have been bitten ... I heard of a guy that got bitten by the only recorded incident of somebody being attacked was out at one of the Islands. I think it might have been Kanetatoe. It came up in a group of Seals, and he got bitten.

CRAWFORD: A Pāua diver?

SQUIRES: No, I think it was a tank diver. 

CRAWFORD: Scuba diver?

SQUIRES: Yeah. He got bitten in the arm. I think they took the wet suit, it was about three or four years ago, five years ago. And he swears that he got hit twice. That one attacked, then another one come in and grabbed him. That's when I first started to think that maybe they go in groups. 

CRAWFORD: If I wanted to follow-up on that specific event, who do I go talk to abut that attack? Would there be a police record for that?

SQUIRES: Possibly.

CRAWFORD: Was there anybody ...

SQUIRES: The Nurse, perhaps? Doc Marty? Yeah, he might know.

CRAWFORD: How long has he been here on the Island?

SQUIRES: Oh, Marty? Hell, he's been here about 20 odd years, 25 years.

CRAWFORD: And when did this attack happen?

SQUIRES: Ah, this is about six years ago, seven years ago.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember where?

SQUIRES: Kanetatoe - that furthest out little island.

CRAWFORD: Ok. We've already talked about the results from the DOC tagging programs, both the hydroacoustic and the gps tagging. But when you take a look at the big picture, you know with these White Pointers doing these long trips from Australia or Samoa or South Africa to Stewart Island ... I mean some of these animals are coming right back to the same place the next year, or every couple years. Stewart Island - one way or another, one reason or another - is a very important part for the life of these White Pointers. Why do you think these animals treat Stewart Island as such an important and special part of their life? Why do they come here?

SQUIRES: The Seal pups.

CRAWFORD: Of all the places around South Island, New Zealand, or even North Island for that matter - even with your knowledge that there are Seals a whole bunch of different places - what makes Stewart Island Seal pups the focus of this attention? Why come here, to this place?

SQUIRES: I think it’s once they've been there - a few of them, as I say it started off probably as a family group that went there. And they just come back there. It’s in their memory, you know. They learn. 

CRAWFORD: They learn as individuals ...

SQUIRES: Yes. And I think they learn as a family group, too.

CRAWFORD: You think maybe the older ones teach the younger ones?

SQUIRES: Yes, I do.

CRAWFORD: Including how to make those migrations?

SQUIRES: Well, you can see it happening. You see it happen in the Orcas.

CRAWFORD: Yes, where you see these pods of Orca - and one generation teaching the next.

SQUIRES: Why can't the White Pointer be the same? They're just as intelligent.

CRAWFORD: Well, some people argue that since one animal is a mammal, and the other is just a fish ... some people think that mammals are smarter, more intelligent, more social than any fish.

SQUIRES: No. I think White Pointers are pretty smart. I think they're clever. Why else would they bite a person and let him go? You know, as soon as they get a taste of him. Deaths occur through accidental attacks - I'm sure of it. I don't think they target us as a food source at all. I think it's accidental. But it’s not an accident I want to be on the end of. And as I say before, I'm pretty sure there's the odd aggressive beast out there too. There's the odd rogue one. One you want to call 'rogue'. I think there's the odd one that's just a badass. I think that that one that we had was made that way. It was made that way by both the Shark cage diving and DOC with their feeding, teasing. That's just my opinion. 

CRAWFORD: The idea that you get social behaviour in the White Pointers. That the animals learned and taught to the next generation. Back in the day it was the Ruggedies and Codfish that were the major regions for them. And then there's a change for whatever reason, and now White Pointers are maybe teaching their offspring to come back to the Northern Titi Islands?

SQUIRES: That's right. You ever seen a Goldfish? You've seen a Goldfish when it's getting fed? It knows when it’s going to get fed. And that's a Goldfish. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, you're right. In terms of fish being able to learn, and things like that.

SQUIRES: Well, you're talking about them being a mega-predator here. You know, a T-Rex with fins. I don't think they're stupid at all. 

CRAWFORD: When you think of South Island in its entirety, and North Island as well, and you think about White Pointer aggregations throughout all of New Zealand waters, is there any place else that you think of as an aggregation site? Any other places in New Zealand where White Pointers really aggregate, that you've heard of?

SQUIRES: No. No. Haven't heard of any.

CRAWFORD: Up the west coast of South Island? Or up the east coast of South Island?

SQUIRES: I've heard them being up the west coast, when they're Tuna-ing and that.

CRAWFORD: Yeah? That's the first I've heard of this. Several of the commercial guys I spoke with, they talked about back in the day going up there for a season or so. But it didn't work out economically, and they were away from their families for a long time. But they talked about going Tuna-ing off the northwest coast of South Island. But I haven't heard about White Pointers up there. 

SQUIRES: I wouldn't say they're White Pointers. I'm not sure what type.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I'm talking specifically about dense aggregations of White Pointers. 

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: But this region - Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait - this is an aggregation region?

SQUIRES: Yes, it is.

CRAWFORD: And yet, no attacks down here?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Knock on wood. Some people say it’s like driving a car. There are going to be collisions, and there are going to be fatal collisions - it’s just the law of probability. I don't want it to happen. As a matter of fact, what I'm trying to do is get people to assess the ecology of the White Pointers, and the risks of our activities, all of them. And have a serious discussion amongst all of us about what are the risks? What more do we need to know? To the extent that we can minimize the risks, what should we do? But some people think it’s only a matter of time. If and when it happens, some of those people are going to hold DOC responsible. Or they'll hold the cage tour dive operators responsible. It’s impossible, for a single event, to draw that linkage. 

SQUIRES: We've had a few close encounters, where they've come up and bit the boat. I mean, that's showing aggression. You know that's showing behaviour that wasn't there before - prior to DOC and the cage diving. Let’s be clear on that. It’s not just the cage divers that made these animals aggro. It’s also DOC. 

CRAWFORD: That's a valid point. You've got to take the whole thing into account. On one hand, we never would have known anything about how much White Pointers are up in Paterson Inlet if DOC hadn't been tagging them. 

SQUIRES: That's right.

CRAWFORD: So, there's a cost-benefit trade-off. There's a cost to knowing, and there's a benefit to knowing.

SQUIRES: I think that once the tagging was done, it should have been it. That it would have slowly faded out. They wouldn't associate boats with food and that so much.

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: What was the first time that you remember either hearing about or seeing a White Pointer?

SQUIRES: First time would have been when I was a kid. Probably about 16 or 17 with my Dad. There was one floating upside down in Mason's Bay, that had eaten three Seals. It had blown up, and it was upside down. 

CRAWFORD: You and your Dad were out - he was Crayfishing at the time?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: You were into Mason Bay, and you saw a White Pointer, belly up. Did you go over, and pull it up on deck?

SQUIRES: You couldn't. It was about 17 foot long. They're quite big beasts.

CRAWFORD: So, it was a larger one?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah. Managed to get a wire strap around its tail, and towed it backwards. 

CRAWFORD: It was still a little bit alive?

SQUIRES: Yeah. Towed it backwards, and then pulled it ashore at high tide with the boat.

CRAWFORD: At Mason's Bay?

SQUIRES: Yeah. And then cut the jaws out.

CRAWFORD: Cut the jaws out because of the teeth?

SQUIRES: Yeah. But also had a look inside, to see what it had eaten.

CRAWFORD: Tell me about that.

SQUIRES: Well, it was three Seals, all chopped into a couple of pieces each. It had eaten too much, and gassed up. 

CRAWFORD: It basically choked to death?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: No indication that there was anything else that would have accounted for that animal dying?

SQUIRES: Nope. No scars on it.

CRAWFORD: Just a large animal, bloated from its gut, with pieces that would constitute three different Seals. Were those Seals relatively fresh in the gut?

SQUIRES: It smelled, so probably not. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Without knowing the digestive rates or whatever - it had been in there for a little while anyways?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Mason Bay. What time of year?

SQUIRES: Don't remember the time of year.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I realize that Seal abundance has changed dramatically over the past decades. But back in those days, what would have been the nearest colony of Seals? Nearest to Mason's?

SQUIRES: Got to be out here. 

CRAWFORD: Codfish Island?

SQUIRES: There are a few out here, around Mason's. The islands. But there's more over here at Codfish.

CRAWFORD: Back in the day - are we talking dozens? Hundreds? 

SQUIRES: Hundreds.

CRAWFORD: Hundreds of Seals. All the way around Codfish?

SQUIRES: All the way around the Island. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly, where in Mason's did you and your Dad find that mostly dead White Pointer?

SQUIRES: Here.

CRAWFORD: Pretty much in the southern third of the Bay?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Prior to that first incident. Your Dad or your Uncles or other people - do you remember people talking about the White Pointers?

SQUIRES: No, not really. They knew they were there. And we always thought the home of them was around here. 

CRAWFORD: Was around Mason's Bay? And Codfish Island?

SQUIRES: Yeah. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's dig into your observations and encounters over the recent several years. Other than the animal you saw over at Mason's Bay with your Dad, when was the first White Pointer you saw in the alive in the wild?

SQUIRES: When they were tagging them, DOC.

CRAWFORD: You were around them, or on board their boat?

SQUIRES: No, no. I wasn't aboard their boat, I was fishing in the area they were tagging them.

CRAWFORD: Within a couple hundred metres or something?

SQUIRES: Yeah. I went up, and had a look. And seen them tagging them.

CRAWFORD: You figure this was early on - like in the first year or two - of DOC's tagging program?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Describe what you saw, what they were doing.

SQUIRES: They were feeding them with Tuna and that. They'd get them up, and they'd jab the old thing on the pole in their back, and tag them.

CRAWFORD: A harpoon tag?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When you say 'feeding', were the DOC Scientists feeding frames, or bits and pieces? Or was it just berley?

SQUIRES: Frames.

CRAWFORD: So, they were actually feeding the White Pointers to bring them in close for tagging?

SQUIRES: Yeah, they were feeding them.

CRAWFORD: Did they have berley going as well?

SQUIRES: They probably did. I didn't see the berley, but I'd seen them feeding them.

CRAWFORD: You definitely saw food going in?

SQUIRES: Oh yes, for sure.

CRAWFORD: And the White Pointers were coming up and feeding?

SQUIRES: Yeah, taking a bite. That's how they would get them, when they'd come past, and bang with the tag.

CRAWFORD: I heard somebody ... it was just recently, somebody told me that early - like the first year of the DOC tagging program - they actually had a shank of flesh that was hung over the side. I don't know if it was mutton or beef or whatever. Do you remember, was that what you saw?

SQUIRES: It was Tuna they used, because they like Tuna. They like rich food. They can survive for quite a while on that.

CRAWFORD: They had a full Tuna or a half Tuna on a line that was suspended in the water?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: And the White Pointers were coming up to feed on the bait. Was that just hanging there? Or was it on some kind of a tow rope?

SQUIRES: They did it all sorts of ways. They did it on a rope, and they hung it there.

CRAWFORD: The intention was, if I'm interpreting correctly, they wanted to get the White Pointers in close to their boat, so they could plant that harpoon tag into the body?

SQUIRES: Correct.

CRAWFORD: Alright, but the key there is that the animals were feeding when they were tagging?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: You saw them feeding?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: When you saw the White Pointers feeding at the DOC boat ... this is going to relate to other things as well later in the interview, it just happens to be that your first observation was in association with the DOC tagging program. Like you said, you didn't see the berleying. They could very well have been doing it. But when you saw the Tuna suspended on a line or something, the White Pointers I’m presuming would be attracted to or follow the bait?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Maybe come alongside the boat, maybe get tagged. Were they Level 3 Interest, in terms of the Tuna that they were approaching? Or were they Level 4s? Did you see any Level 4 kind of attitude or splashing - really rapid, high intensity response?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Describe what you saw that was in that kind of high intensity response category. These White Pointers in their high intensity Level 4 reactions.

SQUIRES: Come in and grab it too quick, very quickly, and shake their head from side to side, and take off. Sort of white water everywhere. There's quite a few of them too that were quite docile about it. 

CRAWFORD: Those would have been the Level 3s?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Circling, maybe a Drive-by.

SQUIRES: Just have a taste of it.

CRAWFORD: Have a taste, and maybe a little bit of gnawing. But not the Level 4 behaviour?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Was it the case that the Level 4 stuff was on the rare side of things? That there was more of the casual Level 3 than the intense Level 4?

SQUIRES: Yeah, more of that.

CRAWFORD: When it was happening, was it usually individual Sharks or groups of Sharks?

SQUIRES: There were groups of Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever see any interactions in those circumstances, where there was baiting, feeding, berleying - did you ever see any interactions socially amongst the individual White Pointers?

SQUIRES: Yeah, I've seen quite a bit of it. Well, I wouldn't say quite a bit - but there was one time I was sitting on the roof, it was a beautiful day, and I got up on the roof to get a better view. The DOC boat was tagging. And these two Sharks, I had a heap of people on from Auckland or Wellington ...

CRAWFORD: So, it was a charter for you?

SQUIRES: Yeah. It was just a beautiful, clear, hot day. And these two or three Sharks come up - they were together. They were both about 18-footers, I suppose. But standing on the wheelhouse roof, you could see down in the water. And they were down about 10, 12, 15 feet. And they were just cruising, just sort of together.

CRAWFORD: Two, roughly 18-footers, together?

SQUIRES: Yeah, together. And a wee one behind them.

CRAWFORD: The little one, like how close behind them?

SQUIRES: Wee bit away, maybe twenty feet.

CRAWFORD: That's an unusual observation, because some people have said, regardless of the environment, if there are multiple White Pointers around, that it’s fairly common if you've got some maybe in the 10-12 foot range, and all of a sudden they bugger off - then a big one comes in. Gives you the idea that these animals have personal space. Somehow, they communicate with each other, and the smaller ones kind of peel off in deference to the bigger one.

SQUIRES: Well, the two the same size were together. I'd never seen such a brilliant view of the beast until then. I love the animals. I think they're magnificent. Just to see them come towards you like that - it would just blow your mind. 

CRAWFORD: How close were those big White Pointers to the DOC tagging boat, at the time you saw them? 

SQUIRES: They'd left the DOC boat, and come towards us.

CRAWFORD: You figure they had been there - and they were coming over to your boat?

SQUIRES: Oh yeah, for sure.

CRAWFORD: Was it a swim-by, or did they circle around you?

SQUIRES: Oh, they circled a wee bit. One wee circle, and went their way.

CRAWFORD: That's almost on the edge between a Level 2 Swim-by, and a Level 3 Interest.

SQUIRES: Yeah, they were just being curious.

CRAWFORD: Nothing sharp or intense? Nothing to indicate that they were ...

SQUIRES: No, they weren't aggro or anything.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Do you remember if those two animals had tags?

SQUIRES: I don't really remember, no.

CRAWFORD: Ok. These were early days. Even a couple years previous, you'd not seen any. And now you were seeing them, in numbers, and you were right there. It’s not Shark cage diving, that hasn't started yet. But it’s the same part without the cage and the divers - in terms of the DOC bait and the berley. So, while DOC was tagging, you were seeing all sorts of White Pointers then?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: In a situation like that, when you were watching the DOC tagging operations - give me a rough sense of the number of different White Pointers around their boat. They might come around, go away, and then come back again. But roughly how many White Pointers would you have seen in a situation like that?

SQUIRES: Probably seen 15-20 odd.

CRAWFORD: Over the course of what time?

SQUIRES: Seven or eight years that I'd been doing it.

CRAWFORD: So, you're talking about over the whole time period? 

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: I'm talking about individual instances, during a DOC tagging session. Would you have seen at most maybe two or three Sharks?

SQUIRES: Three or Four.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of the DOC tagging program, do you remember roughly how long that lasted?

SQUIRES: Oh, it was about three or four years, I think.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever go to any of the DOC meetings in the community, where they presented results of their tagging program?

SQUIRES: No, I never heard about them. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever talk to Clinton Duffy, or any of the other DOC guys about it?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: I forgot to ask you, with the DOC tagging, do you ever remember seeing or hearing other places that they were tagging or berleying for the White Pointers?

SQUIRES: Oh, they were all over the place. All out round the Islands here. I don't recall them being up here.

CRAWFORD: Northwest corner of Stewart Island?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Out in front of Horseshoe and Halfmoon Bays, mostly among the Titi Islands?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ever hear about DOC going over to Ruapuke?

SQUIRES: No, never heard about it. Could have done, for all I know.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s talk a little bit specifically about your charter operation. It’s been going on for about twenty years?

SQUIRES: Well, I suppose all up about 20 years. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: That's important, because you've got a time-series that predates both DOC tagging and the cage dive operations. Refresh my memory, when was the first time you saw White Pointers out there?

SQUIRES: About seven years ago.

CRAWFORD: That's right, because you said the first White Pointer you saw was actually in response to DOC's berleying and tagging program. And you saw, on repeated occasions, White Pointers associated with their program?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When was the first time you saw a White Pointer out there that wasn't associated with the DOC tagging program? 

SQUIRES: It would have been round about the same time.

CRAWFORD: You would have been running a charter?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: So, roughly we're talking about 7 years ago as well. Time of year?

SQUIRES: Oh, about this time of year.

CRAWFORD: January?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Tell me the circumstances.

SQUIRES: Well, it was a 20-footer, and it come up to us. It was huge. It stayed with us for an hour and a half.

CRAWFORD: Ninety minutes that animal hung around?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Where were you?

SQUIRES: I started off I was at Te Maramas it’s the first island out here - the [Mummy??] Island. Then to Bunkers, and then I went to Kanetatoe. Both sides of Kanetatoe.

CRAWFORD: This was a charter fishing trip?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, it wasn't pelagic birding, or anything like that?

SQUIRES: No, no.

CRAWFORD: You went out there to charter fish, and you saw this White Pointer at the first place you went fishing?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah. It come up, it circled us, and stayed with us. Everybody got a good look at it. I mean I know how big it was, because I'm 40-foot - and it was half my size. And it was about that wide, and about that deep

CRAWFORD: So, it had girth to it?

SQUIRES: Oh, mate - it was humungous. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: When you first saw this White Pointer, did you see it come up, or did you see it when it was circling?

SQUIRES: It circled.

CRAWFORD: It came in, and started to go around the boat? 

SQUIRES: Close to the boat. Really close. You could reach out and touch his dorsal fin. 

CRAWFORD: You had fishing lines, handlines, in the water at the time?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And fish on? Fish were coming in on the lines?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you get the sense that maybe it was the fish on the lines that brought this White Pointer in?

SQUIRES: I got that idea, yeah. That it had been attracted to the boat, because of the fishing. 

CRAWFORD: At the time, were you just bringing the fish in - or were you cleaning them as well?

SQUIRES: Always cleaning. But what I clean, I bleed my fish into a tub that doesn't have holes in it. So, the blood stays in there. Clean the fish into that, and then I fillet them, and I throw the frame over the side, and the Mollies always take the frame. The first sign that there's going to be a White Pointer around is the Mollies take off. 

CRAWFORD: Did that happen in this case?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: The Mollymawks took off - and roughly how long after did you see this big White Pointer circling?

SQUIRES: About the same time.

CRAWFORD: And it circled around. Did it do anything other than circle?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Just circled. How long between when you first saw the White Pointer, and you moved off to the next island?

SQUIRES: Oh, it would have been ten minutes.

CRAWFORD: And the animal circled for that the entire ten minutes?

SQUIRES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, you and your charter people were getting your view ... Did you stop fishing once you saw the animal?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, all handlines were out at the start, and then lines in and ten minutes of circling by this big, beautiful White Pointer. But it’s still a charter fishing trip, so you head out to another destination - roughly a mile away?

SQUIRES: About two mile. 

CRAWFORD: Two miles. Roughly what cruising speed for your vessel, the Laloma?

SQUIRES: Doing about eight knots. Steamed away.

CRAWFORD: Did you see the White Pointer following you?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: So, you thought you were clear?

SQUIRES: Yeah. Start fishing again.

CRAWFORD: You had no reason to believe otherwise. You get over to the other island ... what kind of depth were you in?

SQUIRES: We were in about 10 fathom.

CRAWFORD: So, fairly deep. You get over, to the next island. I'm guessing you spotted fish on the sonar, or you were fishing at grounds you know?

SQUIRES: Fishing grounds I know.

CRAWFORD: And you started catching fish? 

SQUIRES: Yep. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Roughly how long from the time you started fishing at the second island?

SQUIRES: Ten minutes, five minutes.

CRAWFORD: And then a Shark shows up?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: You don't know that it’s the same animal ...

SQUIRES: I do know it’s the same animal.

CRAWFORD: How do you know?

SQUIRES: The size of it.

CRAWFORD: There could be other animals that size out there, potentially. But you certainly have good reason to suspect it’s the same White Pointer?

SQUIRES: Nah. It’s the same one, mate.

CRAWFORD: Any distinguishing marks?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah - it had a wee scar on it. It had all these hooks hanging out its mouth. It had all the hooks and that hanging out its mouth, where it had been taken by anglers like with rod lines and that. People who had lost their lines, about half a dozen hooks out its mouth. I nicknamed it Emma, cause there was a girl who worked in the pub, and had all this shit hanging out her mouth, called Emma. She didn't like it too much. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: That's also a line out of Pulp Fiction, 'all that shit hanging out'. Ok, so 'Emma' then. And you saw the hooked lines on this White Pointer. In your mind, there was no doubt this was the same animal?

SQUIRES: No doubt. It was the same animal.

CRAWFORD: Describe the behaviour please?

SQUIRES: Same. Cruising around us. Didn't take the line. 

CRAWFORD: It didn't take any action with your fishing gear at all?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Was it always circling around, or did it go down and come back up?

SQUIRES: Just circled. And then I moved on again.

CRAWFORD: Roughly how long? You got everybody to pull their handlines up. Then roughly how long between the lines coming up and you decide you're going to move again?

SQUIRES: Straight away.

CRAWFORD: You didn't even wait the ten minutes this time?

SQUIRES: No, no. We'd already had a look at it.

CRAWFORD: At this point did you try to lose the White Pointer?

SQUIRES: Did try and lose it then. The second island I went to, I was trying to lose it.

CRAWFORD: That was two miles away?

SQUIRES: And then the third island.

CRAWFORD: How far away was that?

SQUIRES: It’s about three miles away.

CRAWFORD: Three miles away. And roughly 7, 8 knots again?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: And you get there ...

SQUIRES: Start fishing. And it turns up again.

CRAWFORD: Approximately how long? 

SQUIRES: Oh, I don't know. Twenty minutes.

CRAWFORD: Twenty minutes or so ... and there's Emma again. And Emma starts circling around again? Does Emma change her behaviour in any way? Start interacting with the gear?

SQUIRES: No, no.

CRAWFORD: Never took a fish?

SQUIRES: No. Then went on the other side of it.

CRAWFORD: What?

SQUIRES: Steamed again, to the other side of the island. 

CRAWFORD: Which island?

SQUIRES: That's at Kanetatoe. So, I steamed to the other side of that.

CRAWFORD: Which is not that far?

SQUIRES: No, no. It's about 15 minutes, 10 minutes.

CRAWFORD: So, about a mile?

SQUIRES: Yeah, about that. Started fishing there, and Emma arrived again.

CRAWFORD: This animal was following you.

SQUIRES: Yes. Correct.

CRAWFORD: I believe you that it is the same animal. And that it was tic-tac-toe. That means there were at least two possible explanations that I can think of. Either this White Pointer was tracking the Laloma steaming over the course of up to three miles, at a speed of roughly eight knots. And/or the White Pointer has some way of detecting the Laloma, from a distance of roughly five miles from where the boat is. I'm putting pretty low probability on that, but I suppose it could happen. But either way, this big White Pointer has shown up and taken a particular interest in your boat and your activity.

SQUIRES: Yes. An unhealthy interest. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: But not 'unhealthy' in terms of any Level 4 behaviour?

SQUIRES: No, no. Hell no.

CRAWFORD: But 'unhealthy' in the sense of ... this White Pointer, half the size of your 40-foot boat, if it should go to a Level 4 ...

SQUIRES: What did they say? "I think we need a bigger boat." [both chuckle]

CRAWFORD: That probably summarizes it. But Emma never really misbehaved on you?

SQUIRES: No. Didn't at all.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, after the fourth relocation, then what happened?

SQUIRES: Then I lost her. We steamed through about half an hour, and carried on fishing. And then we headed in.

CRAWFORD: You carried on fishing - and Emma did not show up again?

SQUIRES: Didn't see her. Then I come into the Bay and all the kids were jumping off the wharf on a beautiful hot day. And I shit myself because I was thinking "God, if she's followed us in ... with all the kids jumping off the wharf and that!"

CRAWFORD: Then what happened?

SQUIRES: Nothing. 

CRAWFORD: Did you radio in or anything?

SQUIRES: No, no.

CRAWFORD: You just saw the wharf, and were concerned?

SQUIRES: Yes. I was just concerned.

CRAWFORD: Because you just had, clearly in your mind, what was a large White pointer showing some serious following behaviour, and you were within eyesight of a bunch of kids that would easily be within the size range of this White Pointer in terms of predation?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: This was Halfmoon Bay that you came back into? 

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: When was this?

SQUIRES: This would have been about six years ago.

CRAWFORD: What time of year?

SQUIRES: This time of year. Oh, no - March. It was March.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you said Emma ... did you get a sense, or did you know, if this was a female White Pointer?

SQUIRES: I thought it was a female. Very big.

CRAWFORD: Based on size?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: How is it you came to know that perhaps the bigger White Pointers are females?

SQUIRES: I got told that.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember who told you?

SQUIRES: Kina.

CRAWFORD: Kina Scollay? Somebody that already had, not just a personal interaction of some renown - which he did - but had also spent a lot of time working on White Pointers, including in direct relationship with DOC/NIWA White Shark researchers. So, Kina said large animals tend to be females. And it likely was, in this case. 

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: This idea about males, females, being different sizes. Have you heard, or do you have any reason to believe, that perhaps Stewart Island could be involved in their mating or their reproduction in some way or another?

SQUIRES: I haven't heard it, but it certainly could be. 

CRAWFORD: Any indication from the old-timers or anybody that people might have seen things like White Pointer courtship or mating behaviour? Anything like that?

SQUIRES: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Was there any indication that a White Pointer of any kind was spotted in Halfmoon Harbour that day - after this event?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: No indication that the animal actually followed your boat from the Islands back in to Halfmoon Bay?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Just to wrap up this part of the interview, lifetime, roughly how many instances have you seen White Pointers in the wild - not associated with DOC tagging?

SQUIRES: Oh, hell. I don't know. A dozen. Twenty-odd, perhaps.

CRAWFORD: Located ... 

SQUIRES: All around that area.

CRAWFORD: All within the region of the Northern Titi Islands?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Not so much along the shoreline of the Stewart Island itself?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: From Bench, north?

SQUIRES: Correct.

CRAWFORD: Of those roughly twenty cases, roughly what percentage would be Level 1 - you observed, but no interaction?

SQUIRES: Probably about 5%.

CRAWFORD: How many Level 2 Swim-Bys?

SQUIRES: Quite a few. They're all Swim-Bys, practically. They're all coming up and having a look. Some will have a nosing at your line.

CRAWFORD: Remember Level 2 is Swim-by, there and gone. Level 3 is sustained Interest.

SQUIRES: It’s all, just about all, Interest.

CRAWFORD: So, maybe some Level 1 Swim-bys ...

SQUIRES: One or two, but very rarely.

CRAWFORD: Ok, let's say 5% Level 2s. And a bunch of Level 3 Interest interactions. The majority - maybe 80%?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And maybe describe some of those in a bit more detail for me?

SQUIRES: They'll take a line.

CRAWFORD: Take a line with a fish on it. Almost of all of these cases, is there always fish on a line or fishing behaviour going on?

SQUIRES: Yes. Or there's activity going on that attracts them.

CRAWFORD: Fishing activity, or fish, or whatever. 

SQUIRES. Yes.

CRAWFORD: And in terms of a Level 3, you've talked about circling. Do you ever get any bumping, but not hostile bumping? Or maybe mouthing behaviour?

SQUIRES: No, just circling.

CRAWFORD: Have you had instances where the White Pointers have actually taken fish off your lines?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Some of them do take fish off the line, maybe half of them try to, and half of them don't?

SQUIRES: Yeah. Half of them just not interested, they're just being nosy. I don't think they really like them - the Cod - to be quite honest.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Have you had any Level 4 Intense interactions?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: How many instances of those?

SQUIRES: When the boat's been attacked?

CRAWFORD: Anything that shows intensity, attitude or attack or anything like that - other than just curiosity. How many instances of Level 4s?

SQUIRES: Well, two that I would consider dangerous.

CRAWFORD: Two out of roughly 20, that's 10%. When was the first incident?

SQUIRES: The first one was again at that first [Mummy??] Island out there. This was about, just after they started Shark cage diving. Come up, and attacked the back of the boat. Come out with its mouth open. It was astern of the boat, and charged the back of the boat with its mouth open. And it took a leap up at a big buoy I had tied there, and bit the buoy.

CRAWFORD: Bit the buoy?

SQUIRES: Yeah. I was standing right beside it. I was fileting fish. I had been cleaning fish - but as I say, the frames were going to the Mollymawks, and the blood was kept in a separate container. I'd been cleaning fish, and this thing comes charging at me. And the crew, who was [Happy??], he said to me "Good God! Look at that bloody thing." It kept coming at us, with its mouth - you know, big smile on its face. And all the tourists ... we were trying to get out of its way, and all the tourists were in our way, because they were trying to get their cameras out, and coming down, and take the photo. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Did you reckon that White Pointer was targeting the buoy you had tied on the stern?

SQUIRES: Yeah, because it’s the same colour. I'm not sure they recognize colours even, but it was the same red float - it was the same as they were attracting the Sharks with tying the bait to it.

CRAWFORD: How far up above the water was it tied?

SQUIRES: That far out of the water. About two foot, three foot.

CRAWFORD: So, way up there - out of the water?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: And did the animal contact the buoy?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Got the mouth on the buoy?

SQUIRES: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Got a piece of the buoy?

SQUIRES: Bit it. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: And took it?

SQUIRES: No, it didn't take it.

CRAWFORD: But once the teeth are in that buoy, and it’s got something ...

SQUIRES: Well, he punctured it, so it deflated a bit.

CRAWFORD: Did it puncture the buoy, and then let go?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And then slide back down?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Had it done anything prior, that you saw? Or was that the first time you saw this animal - it was going after your float?

SQUIRES: First time I seen him, he was going after the float.

CRAWFORD: You didn't see any prior circling, or anything like that?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: You had your charter fishing with handlines at the time?

SQUIRES: No. We had our lines up, actually.

CRAWFORD: Oh, you had been fishing. Do you anchor when you're fishing?

SQUIRES: No, no. We were just drifting. We were about to move.

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

SQUIRES: It was an aggro one. It was very aggro.

CRAWFORD: Aggressive?

SQUIRES: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

CRAWFORD: Did it shake the buoy? Clamp down on it and shake?

SQUIRES: Yeah, it shook. And then let go.

CRAWFORD: Did it clamp down on the stern?

SQUIRES: No, no. It was the buoy.

CRAWFORD: When it slid back down, did it do anything after that?

SQUIRES: No. We took off.

CRAWFORD: You just high-tailed it after that?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: As far as you know, it wasn't circling - but it could have been?

SQUIRES: It could have been. We just got out of it.

CRAWFORD: And you don't have any reason to believe that White Pointer was following you after that?

SQUIRES: No. Apart from about two days later, we got attacked again. Exactly the same instance. And I think it was the same beast.

CRAWFORD: Just to clarify ... you had finished fishing in that spot, you were cleaning at the time, there were Cod frames going out, it was the Mollymawks ... and I've seen them, they just swallow the frames whole ...

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: But it's possible that even the Cod frames going over, and the Mollymawks ... it could have been the Mollymawks and their flapping around that the White Pointer could have also associated with ... "Oh, there's potential for food up here."

SQUIRES: Could have been. Correct.

CRAWFORD: White Pointer then sees the buoy. Potentially then, goes specifically after that buoy?

SQUIRES: Yes, sure.

CRAWFORD: Now tell me, how many days later was the next incident?

SQUIRES: Two days later.

CRAWFORD: Were you charter fishing in the same place?

SQUIRES: Different part of the island, but the same general area. Roughly the same area, within a mile. 

CRAWFORD: Were you fishing at the time?

SQUIRES: Yes, I think we were.

CRAWFORD: So, handlines in the water. Did you have the buoy, or I guess another buoy, tied to the stern again?

SQUIRES: No, the same buoy there, But it was a bit flatter, yeah. It come up and took it again.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Again - no circling or anything to begin with?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Again - body up out of the water, mouth about 3 feet above water level?

SQUIRES: It wasn't a big one. About a 12-footer, 11-footer.

CRAWFORD: That means almost half of its body has to be out of the water, in order to get its mouth on that buoy?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Why did you reckon it was the same animal?

SQUIRES: Because it was the same size, and it showed exactly the same aggression, and I hadn't seen such aggression. I've heard of them being aggressive. I know that are aggressive, and they had been lately. It was the only one, with me personally that had been aggressive. So, I figured it was the same beast. Also, the boys had been going up there, and they were going to go tagging again. So, I said to Kina about it. Because that's where they were going to go tagging again, was out there. I said "Be careful out there, when you're tagging." Because he used to get down on that little wee [duckboard??], wasn't frightened of them at all - you know? I said "There's one bad bastard out there, mate. And he's quite aggressive." He said "Ah, yeah." And then I heard that they got a tag into it. And they told me that's the only Shark he's ever hopped on the deck for. Got off the [duckboard??], and on the deck because it was so aggressive. 

CRAWFORD: So, there's more than one source of knowledge coming in on this one. And it seems these White pointers have a level of individuality?

SQUIRES: Yes, correct. I believe that. I believe that you do get bad buggers - just like people.

CRAWFORD: But you can also get a degree of consistency in behaviour by an individual?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Also, this individual White Pointer had a thing about the buoy. To your recollection, based on what you saw or what you heard, was DOC using floats with their throw baits?

SQUIRES: Yes, they were. And so were the Shark cage boys. Which is what I figured why the Shark was aggressive. Because some of the Shark cage divers, before they were told not to do it, were teasing them.

CRAWFORD: What's 'teasing' in this sense? Throwing a fish as throw bait, and then not letting the White Pointer have it?

SQUIRES: Yeah, pulling it back.

CRAWFORD: And both DOC and the cage dive operations were doing that kind of teasing?

SQUIRES: Yes, correct. And I figure they were making them aggro. They were pissing this one off, anyway.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that kind of teasing could actually elevate a White Pointer from Level 3 Curious to a Level 4 Intense?

SQUIRES: Yes. They changed the behaviour pattern on them, I'm sure of it. Well, they did anyway - because we never used to see them. Very rarely did you see a Shark. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of you seeing White Pointers, other than you seeing DOC tagging animals, you reckoned you've seen maybe 20 in the wild, and out of them you had those two incidents then that comprise the Level 4s?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And they happened to be in very close spatial proximity. Close to the same place - and how many days apart?

SQUIRES: About two.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, so close in space, close in time, and close in behaviour.

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And a strong indication in your mind, the same individual?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Getting back to this idea about cues that the White Pointers might be responding to. When you're fishing - technically, you're not 'teasing' them. You're just out there fishing.

SQUIRES: I don't want to tease them.

CRAWFORD: But technically, you're not leaving them alone either - in the sense that you're fishing, and bloody frames are still going in the water. You're minding your own business, but you are doing something that could attract their attention. But you're not deliberately trying to bring them in.

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: It’s not like you're DOC - trying to bait them in to tag them. Or the cage tour dive operations - trying to bring them in close to the cage for the punters to see up close. You're doing things the animals are naturally attracted to. You're not asking for it.

SQUIRES: No. And generally, when I'm steaming is when I tip the blood over the side - it’s contained. 

CRAWFORD: Just to be clear - why do you tip the blood over the side while you're steaming? 

SQUIRES: So, it doesn't attract the Sharks around, when I'm sitting there, when people are fishing. The thing that worries you, is that somebody's going to be fishing, and the Shark's going to come in because people do silly things with lines - wrap around their arm or something, or could be caught round their leg. And a Shark takes it, you know. That's dangerous. 

CRAWFORD: Very.

SQUIRES: You're always telling the people to be aware of that. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. Especially when you're in a boat that's moving - even in a gentle swell.

SQUIRES: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: And I'm sure you see a lot of charter people who don't go out on boats a lot.

SQUIRES: They haven't a clue, mate. You've got to look after them. 

CRAWFORD: I don't think I have asked anybody this question. Under any circumstances in twenty years of running a charter for largely vacation holiday-makers doing recreational fishing ... have you had anybody, under any circumstances anywhere, fall off your boat?

SQUIRES: I had somebody jump over the side one day. And I've had one person fall off. 

CRAWFORD: I don't think we can account for the person who jumped off [both chuckle] ... but that's one out of probably several hundred people that you've had out, yeah?

SQUIRES: I've probably taken, probably about 15,000 out. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. But still, it’s a health and safety issue right? For a number of different reasons? 

SQUIRES: Yes.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: During your early days, do you ever remember any of the old-timers talking about White Pointers - any incidences where people had seen them or had encounters with them on this side, the northeast side of the Island?

SQUIRES: The only time that I can recall, was a story I heard about a couple of guys that had to wait before they got in their dinghy to row ashore in the Bay here.

CRAWFORD: We're talking Halfmoon Bay?

SQUIRES: Yeah, cause there was a White Pointer circling around the boat. So, they had to wait for quite some time.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember roughly when that would have happened?

SQUIRES: That would have had to have been about '60s.

CRAWFORD: These guys had moored here in the harbour, and they had a dinghy that they were going to shore in. And there was a White Pointer in amongst the boats in general?

SQUIRES: Circling around their boat.

CRAWFORD: Was their boat a fishing boat?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Codfishing? Crayfishing?

SQUIRES: Codfishing.

CRAWFORD: I'm not sure they would even know, but did they reckon the White Pointer was there prior to them tying off at the mooring line? Or was there any indication that the animal came in with them?

SQUIRES: No indication at all. No. It was just there when they went to get in. That's when they first noticed it.

CRAWFORD: They were just getting in the dinghy, going home or to the pub for a beer or whatever. And there's a White Pointer?

SQUIRES: Right. Out of the dinghy, into the boat. White.

CRAWFORD: You heard about that directly from them? Or was that a story you heard?

SQUIRES: That was a story. And it wasn't directly from them. I knew the guys. They were two Hamilton Brothers, so I knew the guys. And it was only told to me actually, about 15-20 years ago.

CRAWFORD: In our classification that's probably a Level 3, because the White Pointer was circling. It wasn't particularly intense with them?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Hadn't bumped the boat, or done anything to show that it was a Level 4?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Tell me more about the small boats in Paterson Inlet recently having interactions with White Pointers. You mentioned the Police boat. What was the story there? When was this?

SQUIRES: A couple of years ago, three years ago.

CRAWFORD: Where?

SQUIRES: Paterson's Inlet

CRAWFORD: Where abouts in the Inlet?

SQUIRES: I'm not sure where it was. I just heard that he got attacked, and that it attacked his prop. It was a White Pointer.

CRAWFORD: Had he seen the animal circling around in the water before the attack?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, the animal was there, it was at the surface. And it was kind of a Level 3 Interest. Then what happened?

SQUIRES: It attacked his prop, attacked his motor.

CRAWFORD: It just came up, and bit the prop?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. And then what happened?

SQUIRES: He got the hell out of there. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Who did what? The Shark then buggered off?

SQUIRES: No. I'm not sure whether the Shark buggered off, or whether the Cop buggered off.

CRAWFORD: But that's a direct interaction. That's a Level 4, for sure.

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Alright. Do you figure that was the first, in Paterson Inlet? That was the first time there was a direct interaction between White Pointers and Humans - that you knew of?

SQUIRES: No, there would have been another one the year before that. It was a small tinny, I think, that a guy was panicking about. You know, a Shark around him. I reckon that it bit the outboard on the boat again. For some reason they go for the outboards.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that is?

SQUIRES: I don't know. Maybe it’s the noise, maybe it’s ... It wasn't going.

CRAWFORD: Oh. Was the motor running - on the police boat?

SQUIRES: It probably was.

CRAWFORD: Motor on, prop in neutral? Maybe the prop was in neutral, in both cases?

SQUIRES: You'd have to ask the Cop that one. I don't know.

CRAWFORD: Well for a White Pointer to hit a moving prop - that's going to do some significant damage. It’s going to be a noticeable thing.

SQUIRES: Of course. It’s not going to hit a movable prop.

CRAWFORD: Have you heard of other White Pointers hitting a moving prop, and inflicting that kind of damage on itself?

SQUIRES: No. No.

SQUIRES: And rudders. They have a habit of grabbing a hold of rudders, and shaking them.

CRAWFORD: Let’s talk about that habit. When was the first instance you remember hearing about it? 

SQUIRES: When I was a kid, I heard about guys putting their boats on the slip, and getting the odd tooth out of a rudder.

CRAWFORD: They would have been out and about, fishing?

SQUIRES: Could have been on the mooring, could have been fishing. It's like they didn't even notice until they put their boat on the slip, and there's a Shark tooth in there.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Same question, Richard - why the hell do you think these animals are taking a bite on a rudder?

SQUIRES: I don't know. It might be something to do with their ... could be anything really. They're not going to eat it. I wouldn't have a clue.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Have other people experienced what you have experienced out there - these intense interactions?

SQUIRES: Yes. And a lot smaller boats - which is what worried me.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'a lot smaller boat', give me an example. 

SQUIRES: Tinnies, dinghies. That sort of thing. Family groups in dinghies that have had frights by Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Where?

SQUIRES: Just Paterson's, coming out the mouth of Paterson's. Out the Bay here, that sort of thing. Out the Islands. Various boats have been attacked, smaller boats. 

CRAWFORD: When you say 'attacked', what do you mean?

SQUIRES: I mean that they've had a go at the propeller, or part of the boat that they can get a hold of. The rudder or the bow.

CRAWFORD: This is actually a combination of two different things that we've already talked about. This idea that some of the White Pointers are going after props or rudders. But also the idea of them showing more than just curious, circling behaviour. Interacting directly with those boats. Including smaller boats.

SQUIRES: Yes. I've heard a lot more with smaller boats than the bigger ones. Like I say, it's happened to us twice, and I'm sure it was the same individual. I think generally they're pretty placid - if you leave them alone. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of other people in that region, and I'm talking specifically about Bench Island to North Island, who else is out there roughly as much as you?

SQUIRES: Brett Hamilton, he's out there quite a bit.

CRAWFORD: What's he doing out there?

SQUIRES: He's fishing.

CRAWFORD: Codpotting?

SQUIRES: Yeah, Codpotting and Crayfishing, and also does a wee bit of touristing. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Who else is out there a lot?

SQUIRES: Chook.

CRAWFORD: Anthony O'Rourke?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Anybody else?

SQUIRES: Heaps of the boys go out there.

CRAWFORD: I know, I`m talking about at the level of frequency that you and Brett and Chook go out. Anybody else in that category, or is it mainly just you three?

SQUIRES: It’s probably about, it’s mainly about that. Young Matt, he's out there quite a bit in his wee boat.

CRAWFORD: Which Matt? Atkins?

SQUIRES: Yeah. And Ty [Jenkinson] too, he was out there quite a bit.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That group of three of four guys - have they had similar experiences as you? Specifically including your two Level 4 intense interactions?

SQUIRES: I don't know if they've actually experienced any Level 4s. I don't know if Chook has. If he has, he hasn't told me about it. I'm not sure about Brett. It's been mainly as I say, mainly the smaller boats that have had the frights put on them

CRAWFORD: And I'm guessing much of that fright is inherently in the fact that it’s a smaller boat?

SQUIRES: Of course.

CRAWFORD: You're talking a situation where the White Pointer is potentially bigger than the boat.

SQUIRES: Where it’s a bit daunting.

CRAWFORD: Have you heard of any circumstance where there was any evidence that a White Pointer was - even playing around - with the idea of capsizing one of these smaller boats?

SQUIRES: No, I haven't heard of that. I've heard that people have been frightened. But you never know. Some people exaggerate, so you just take it with a grain of salt. 

CRAWFORD: Right. With the exception of the one event, the 'nipping' behaviour that you heard about - have you ever heard about a White Pointer attacking a Human being in any of this region around Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait, southern South Island?

SQUIRES: Never.

CRAWFORD: I think that leads to the natural question - why the hell not? In all of these years with this region being a known White Pointer hotspot. 

SQUIRES: I don't know, mate.

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

CRAWFORD: When was the first time you remember hearing about or seeing the Shark cage dive operations?

SQUIRES: That would have been when they started, I guess. About six, seven years ago.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember where they were operating?

SQUIRES: Yeah, Edwards.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever see cage dive operations any place other than Edwards?

SQUIRES: Yep, yep. I've seen them, they were over by the Neck.

CRAWFORD: With cage in the water?

SQUIRES: Didn't see the cage in the water, but they were looking for Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: Kind of poking around, trying to see where the Sharks were?

SQUIRES: Yeah, yeah. And they spent a bit of time at Bench, they were looking. Till they got restricted to Edwards.

CRAWFORD: That restriction was when the DOC permit was issued. We're now in Year 2 of the first two-year DOC permit. But I've also heard that there was kind of a natural gravitation of the cage dive operations to Edwards, partially because of their ability to bring Sharks in, consistently. But also the fact that west wind or east wind ...

SQUIRES: It’s sheltered.

CRAWFORD: Going back to something else you said ... in the early days at least, it wasn't just berleying going on at the cage dive operations? It was actual feeding as well? 

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, the animals were getting food in their mouths, as part of the operation?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: But back then, prior to the permit, there were no conditions to prevent the operators from feeding them. There were no conditions at all. They weren't breaking any law by feeding the White Pointers at that point. But once the permit came in, then the permit very clearly says only berley of this particular size. And a tow bait, but if you lose the bait there's a restriction on usage - you can't just use a limitless number of baits on the throw bait line. Prior to the permit, was there feeding going on that you had actually seen?

SQUIRES: No.

CRAWFORD: Have you seen the cage tour dive operations in operation? Have you seen them working?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: You've seen them at Edwards Island?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Let’s presume for this conversation that everything's going by the permit - that there's no feeding. But the permit still allows berleying, so that does happen. If the berley’s working, either White Pointers there already - or those that follow the berley trail - they come in to proximity. The cage and the people go in the water. The operators throw tow-baits on lines to bring the White Pointers in closer to the cage, so the tourists get their pictures or have their experience or whatever. Throw bait is used to keep the animals in proximity to the cage, so it’s not way out there - it’s in close. And the operators do that for four or five hours, before they lift the cage and head home with their clients. Is that kind of consistent with your understanding?

SQUIRES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that Shark those cage dive operations have an important, lasting effect on the White Pointers?

SQUIRES: Well, I don't know exactly. I do think that they did have for a start. I think they made them aggressive. 

CRAWFORD: In the early years after cage diving started, compared to the past few years - the White Pointers just after start-up were more aggressive? 

SQUIRES: Yeah. In the first couple years that they were doing it. That's when a lot of this had started happening, the aggression. Because of what they were doing. Because of their interaction with them. 

CRAWFORD: I think you might be the first person I've spoken with to have said that. Why do you figure that it was noticeable in the first couple of years, and not so much in the later few years?

SQUIRES: I think because they've stopped them doing what they were doing.

CRAWFORD: What were they doing?

SQUIRES: Teasing them. Though I have been told that there's a thing on YouTube now that you can probably have a look at. A couple of people come up to me in the Hotel, yesterday I think it was. A family group that come over here every year - that don't get in the water now. The whole lot of them used to do it, but they refuse to get in. And they were appalled by something on YouTube they seen off one of the dive boats, about how they were teasing them. 

CRAWFORD: Teasing them how?

SQUIRES: Just with bait. I don't know, you'd have to have a look at it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Under the permit conditions, the cage dive operators are allowed to use a throw-bait - a piece of Tuna on a float - and then pull that around.

SQUIRES: I guess that's what they were referring to, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Teasing. In the sense of bringing the White Pointers in, to move into a particular location, relative to the boat or to the cage. That's still happening. Do you think that 'teasing' is any less important now, than it was in the first three years?

SQUIRES: No, I don't. What they're doing is still .... I don't think it’s right to do anything with them like that. I think you should just leave them alone. Leave them alone, and they'll go away. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. If the permit condition was changed such that a throw-bait was not allowed anymore ... berleying still yes, but throw-baits no. Do you think that the animals would not still be attracted if it was only berley? That they would just bugger off, if there wasn't any bait there of some kind? If there was berley and only berley - do you think that the White Pointers would stick around?

SQUIRES: Yes, I do. Because I've proved it myself by watching a Shark come round the boat, circle, and then go. And I've poured a wee bit of blood out of the side out of a tub, and I've counted to about ten seconds - and that Shark's back with the blood. 

CRAWFORD: You think that over a very short response time or even a longer period of time, that the smell of blood is more than enough to keep them coming back?

SQUIRES: Yeah. I've done it on about three or four different occasions, where people haven't got a shot of it, or want a photo.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let me take you through fairly quickly a series of structured questions. First, do you think that a White Pointer that's been exposed to cage dive operations would associate the smell of food, the smell of berley, with the place - that the animals would hang around that place? Edwards Island, in this case. Even if the cage dive operations were not there? If the berley was just dumped there without anything else happening. Do you think the White Pointers associate the smell of food and the place?

SQUIRES: I think they associate it with boats. 

CRAWFORD: I'll get to that. I'm going to add that in a second. But specifically, the place. Do you think that there are more White Pointers around Edwards Island now, because of the cage dive operations?

SQUIRES: Yes, I do. 

CRAWFORD: More than there would have been if there were no cage dive operations?

SQUIRES: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that?

SQUIRES: Because I've never seen so many Sharks out there. I've never seen them before, until they started doing this. And it’s always in that area. Not always. I've had them in other places. We've seen them, but ...

CRAWFORD: Yes, I think I understand. We really have a lot of outstanding questions about how 'local' is local for these White Pointers? It’s quite possible that if Clinton Duffy did more of his hydroacoustic work, we might find out that these White Pointers hang around for a week, and then maybe go around the Island, and then maybe come back and spend another week here. We don't really know, right?

SQUIRES: I think they travel all the Islands, all round here.

CRAWFORD: But they may have some places where they're resident for at least a little period of time. Where they set up social hierarchies for a reason. There might be a reason why they hang around a particular place for weeks or whatever. Association between the berley - the smell of food - and the place. Now let's add the presence of boats. Not cage tour dive operators in particular, but boats in general. Let's even make it a boat that has never been here before. Do you think White Pointers that have been exposed to cage tour dive operations are more likely to investigate that boat?

SQUIRES: Yes, of course. I know they do. 

CRAWFORD: "That thing that's floating up there. Oh, the last time I smelled food, berley, was in association with a boat. Maybe there's something up there with that boat."?

SQUIRES: Yes. They're teaching them. 

CRAWFORD: To associate the smell of food with boats in general?

SQUIRES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's think about boats in particular now. That particular boat, that hull, that motor, that prop. Do you think the White Pointers associate the smell of food with an individual signature of an individual boat?

SQUIRES: Possibly. It just depends how smart they are. 

CRAWFORD: I know it’s a difficult question. But you're already said, these animals are not stupid.

SQUIRES: They're not stupid. I think that they're smart. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think they're smart enough to know a particular boat?

SQUIRES: Yeah, I think they're smart enough to know that. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think a White Pointer would have the ability to recognize an individual Human being? I don't think I've asked that question to anybody in all of my interviews - but I'll ask you. 

SQUIRES: That's a hard one. I really don't know what their eyesight's like. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s presume it’s sufficient. That eyesight was not a limitation.

SQUIRES: Well, it’s got to be good.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s say they have good eyesight. Do you think it’s possible for a White Pointer to recognize Richard Squires?

SQUIRES: Anything's possible, yes.

CRAWFORD: Do you think it’s likely, sir?

SQUIRES: No, I don't think it’s likely. But it’s possible. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. Let's get back to my line of questioning. Do you think that White Pointers exposed to cage dive operations make the association between the smell of food and the presence of a Human being in the water? Such that, if they experience another Human being in the water, at another place and another time, that they are more likely to investigate that Human?

SQUIRES: I think so, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that?

SQUIRES: Because I think they're smart. I think they're clever. And I think they're associating the smell, and then they put a diver in the water with them, and so this equals food. Isn't it obvious? I mean, they've got to think like that. If you were a predator, wouldn't you think like that?

Copyright © 2021 Richard Squires and Steve Crawford