Peter Bain

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Ok, let's get started Peter. You said you were born in the Catlins? 

BAIN: Born in the Owaka Hospital, which is now a backpackers. 1962.

CRAWFORD: So, you were born in a coastal community. 

BAIN: Correct. 

CRAWFORD: What is your first memory of being on or around the water?

BAIN: I recall jumping off wharfs from the age of probably five or six. 

CRAWFORD: What kinds of things would you have been doing on and around the water, as a kid?

BAIN: Essentially swimming, jumping off wharfs, water-skiing from quite an early age in some of the more sheltered lagoons. From the age of ten to twelve, we were out fishing offshore, on boats going across bars.

CRAWFORD: When you were swimming, it would have been immediately adjacent to the village?

BAIN: Pounawea was the costal seaside holiday spot that we would frequent.

CRAWFORD: And you started fishing at the age of about twelve?

BAIN: Yeah, thereabouts.

CRAWFORD: When you were fishing, did that come with an expanded range geographically?

BAIN: Certainly we left the shore, and we were out to open sea as such. 

CRAWFORD: How far out would you go?

BAIN: Only one or two miles off.

CRAWFORD: What kind of a boat would you have been in, typically? 

BAIN: An open vessel, 15- to 20-foot wooden outboard. Home-built.

CRAWFORD: What kind of fishing were you doing?

BAIN: Essentially just linefishing for Cod.

CRAWFORD: That means rod-and-reel?

BAIN: Yeah, rod-and-reel. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of bait would you have been using?

BAIN: It would be just fresh bait. Anything from Jock Stewart to Blue Cod to whatever.

CRAWFORD: Fish bits?

BAIN: Yeah, fish bits. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of expanding your range along the coastline, did you go further south or north?

BAIN: Not so much so. It was still within a relatively small radius of the harbour entrance.

CRAWFORD: Was there anything else you were doing in and around the water during that period as well?

BAIN: Certainly at that 12 age group, we would do shore gathering for Pāuas. At that point I wasn’t in wetsuits. They were just low tide activities from the shore, rock pools, gathering shellfish.

CRAWFORD: What other types of activities, on and around the water?

BAIN: Not too much more, in those days. Whilst the coast was close, we were still farmers - inland by 20, 25 miles from the actual shore itself. So, whilst the village, Owaka township, was close to the coast, we were farming inland.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you were involved in coastal activities, was that year-round, or just during a certain season?

BAIN: More often that it was in the summertime.

CRAWFORD: For both swimming and fishing?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: At some point in time you would have started doing other things. What was the next natural break point for you?

BAIN: Probably about 16, 17. My associates began scubadiving. Whilst I wasn’t a scubadiver at that point, I did go on the trips with them. So, I was associated with that.

CRAWFORD: What kind of trips? Where did they go?

BAIN: Mainly on the Otago Peninsula - Cape Saunders, Aramoana, Port Chalmers. 

CRAWFORD: So, you were not diving, but you were a deckhand on the boat with your mates who were diving?

BAIN: Yeah, that’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Would those have been weekend trips?

BAIN: Day trips, more often.

CRAWFORD: How frequent would they have been?

BAIN: We were probably getting out two or three times a month, over a three-month period.

CRAWFORD: And that would have gone from the age of 16 till when?

BAIN: Probably 16 to 18.

CRAWFORD: Were you still linefishing back home, through that period?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Any other change in activities?

BAIN: No. In those years I was less shore gathering until 18, 20 when I started first coming to Stewart Island.

CRAWFORD: That’s a natural break point. When did you start spending a significant amount of time on Stewart Island?

BAIN: Significant time? Not until probably 1988.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Shorter visits prior to that. What kinds of things were you doing from about the age of 20 until 26?

BAIN: I worked in the mid Canterbury, in the insurance industry. I had very little to do with the coast. And then I went on to an overseas trip. I did my OE between '86 and '88.

CRAWFORD: Where did you go for your OE?

BAIN: South-East Asia, and then on to London and Europe.

CRAWFORD: You came back a new man?

BAIN: Came back a new man.

CRAWFORD: How old were you then?

BAIN: Well '88 - I must have been 26. Came back to Stewart Island.

CRAWFORD: What was your connection here on the Island?

BAIN: My Brother was here. There was work here. My Mother and Stepfather owned a holiday home here. So, there was a connection. 

CRAWFORD: You started working as soon as you got here?

BAIN: Correct.

CRAWFORD: What was your first job here?

BAIN: First job was a Crayfisherman on the [Ivey A??], Ross [Cleland’s??] fishing boat. For our first season, we fished out of Halfmoon Bay. And then later, we fished out of Fiordland - out of Dusky Sound.

CRAWFORD: So, you began crewing on a Crayfishing boat that was working Stewart Island waters - for what part of the year?

BAIN: From probably September to late November. 

CRAWFORD: And then late November to early December up to Fiordland - until when?

BAIN: Early the following year. January, February. 

CRAWFORD: Were those week-long trips? You’d go out for a week, come back for a week - that kind of thing?

BAIN: Yeah pretty much. We would fly in, fly out. Once the boat was there. 

CRAWFORD: You did that for one year, for repeated years? 

BAIN: Nah, just the one season. 

CRAWFORD: Then what?

BAIN: At which point I still wasn’t a diver, as such. I had no real diving experience. And then I began working at what was New Zealand Salmon, in those days. As an aquacultural Salmon farmer. 

CRAWFORD: Where was that operation?

BAIN: In Big Glory Bay, up in here.

CRAWFORD: Paterson Inlet?

BAIN: Yeah. New Zealand Salmon, now called King Salmon, was situated on this side. Big Glory Salmon as it was called, was on the other side of the bay. There was also Regal Salmon at the beginning, but it merged with New Zealand King Salmon. There was some smaller farms as well. Joe Cave had a farm. I think [Peter Schofield??] may have had a farm in the early days. But relatively quickly, it came back to two major operators.

CRAWFORD: When did they start, roughly? Do you recall?

BAIN: I’m only guessing - but five years before that?

CRAWFORD: Early '80s?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: OK. Why Big Glory Bay for these aquaculture operations?

BAIN: I think because it was a sheltered bay, with good tidal flow.

CRAWFORD: So, flushing?

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Is that the state of affairs now?

BAIN: No, New Zealand King Salmon consolidated around Marlborough Sounds, and have shifted out. So, there’s essentially only one finfish aquaculture site. Sanfords.

CRAWFORD: And it’s been that way until today?

BAIN: Yes. Now, there’s still a number of aquaculture sites and shellfish sites - but that's it for finfish.

CRAWFORD: When you say shellfish aquaculture, what do you mean?

BAIN: Aquaculture encompassing all farmed species of Mussels, Oysters ...

CRAWFORD: Invertebrates?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: But finfish is now only one operation? 

BAIN: It’s only the one operation. 

CRAWFRORD: And is that true for the entire Island? Are there any other finfish aquaculture operations elsewhere on Stewart Island?

BAIN: It was the only bay that was opened up to aquaculture farming.

CRAWFORD: In terms of government regulations and permitting?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Were there any other finfish aquaculture operations on the other side of Foveaux Strait?

BAIN: No. Not that I’m aware of.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you started work at the Salmon Farm, what were your responsibilities?

BAIN: In those days, we were just general farmhands -  which included water-blast cleaning nets, lugging feed, feeding fish, disposing of dead fish.

CRAWFORD: Was that all within Big Glory Bay? Or did you have responsibilities outside of Big Glory Bay?

BAIN: The site itself was in Big Glory Bay, but we did dump dead fish outside of the bay. 

CRAWFORD: Mortality dumping?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: So, animals that were dying in the cage. Was there a single dump site, or several dump sites? 

BAIN: There was a particular dump site in the early days. As to an official site, or whether it was recognized, I don't know. But there was a deep hole off the end of Ulva Island.

CRAWFORD: Still in Paterson Inlet?

BAIN: Yes. We often dumped fish there. Interestingly though, the Spiky Dogfish, a small Shark, was quite prevalent in the area. Within minutes of idling up to that spot, they would appear at the surface, know that it was feeding time. 

CRAWFORD: Really?

BAIN: Yeah, yeah. So, the association with noise and boats was something I had direct experience with.

CRAWFORD: Well, that’s an interesting observation in itself. There are at least two different things that the Dogfish could have been associating with the food, with the fish farm mortalities. It could have been any boat at that place. Or it could have been that specific Fish Farm boat at that place.

BAIN: Generally, it was the same boat. A small McClay-hulled, rigid inflatable or pontoon aluminium boat, with an outboard. And normally the same boat on a reasonably regular basis.

CRAWFORD: Meaning what? Every couple of days?

BAIN: Yeah, every other day. And as I say, within minutes of tipping what was traditionally maybe a wheelie-bin tub or two of fish over, the Dogfish would be there. 

CRAWFORD: That’s an important observation. When you got out there, you didn’t anchor or anything?

BAIN: No.

CRAWFORD: You got to the place, you were drifting, unanchored. And this may sound like a bit of a weird question, but did you see the Dogsharks prior to dumping? Do you recall?

BAIN: No. They came up to the vessel after.

CRAWFORD: After tipping the wheelie bins.

BAIN: We would shoot them for fun with a Hawaiian sling off the back of the boat. 

CRAWFORD: With a what?

BAIN: A Hawaiian sling. It’s just like a spear with a big rubber. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you dumped the wheelie-bin. Are we talking like tens, hundreds of Dogsharks? 

BAIN: Probably tens of Sharks, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: I don’t know much about Dogsharks, whether they school or swim around more as individuals? 

BAIN: They do school. And they can be quite aggressive. They aren’t particularly big, but they can be quite aggressive as far as multiple Sharks coming at you. I haven’t experienced it myself, but I’ve got a colleague who quite recently had a dozen of these things coming at him from all directions. 

CRAWFORD: Dogsharks?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, there was a place off Ulva Island that was typically used for dumping morts. Were there any other alternate sites for dumping? 

BAIN: Not in those days. In more recent times, we now have a site well down the shore. Quite some number of miles down.

CRAWFORD: Outside of Paterson Inlet?

BAIN: Yep, outside of Paterson Inlet. In this vicinity here, deep water. It is a permitted site.

CRAWFORD: When did that change take place?

BAIN: I’m not sure. I was away from the Farm for a number of years.

CRAWFORD: When you came back, it was a different dumping site?

BAIN: Yeah, that’s correct. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Through your early years at the Fish Farm, you had experience on the water immediately adjacent to the cages in Big Glory Bay?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And then you had experience on the runs out to the Ulva Island dump site?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Roughly how long did that routine go for?

BAIN: Initially I was at one Farm, then I shifted to what was Big Glory Salmon. Became a diver.

CRAWFORD: That’s an important break. When did that happen?

BAIN: I was with New Zealand Salmon for probably a year and a half. And then I became a shift worker. Lived on-site in Big Glory Bay, probably two years later at about 28.

CRAWFORD: That’s when you started to dive?

BAIN: That’s when I started work diving - in '88. My timelines may not be quite right. I’m just trying to think back to when I got my first dive ticket, which was about 1990 I began diving on a regular basis.

CRAWFORD: You were in your late 20s? 

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Where did you get your certification?

BAIN: We had an onsite Instructor through ... in those days it was PADI qualification. As opposed to nowadays, it’s a commercial qualification. 

CRAWFORD: Prior to that, when you were spending time as a general farm hand, was there any other time, leisure time or otherwise, that you spent on the water? Fishing or doing anything else?

BAIN: In those days, certainly fishing - linefishing.

CRAWFORD: Where might you have spent your time recreational fishing?

BAIN: Most of it was in the Inlet. In sheltered waters in Paterson Inlet. And or off Bobs Point.

CRAWFORD: Generally, within the bays - Halfmoon, Horseshoe and Paterson Inlet? 

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: OK. Then approximately 30 years old, you got your dive ticket, and were employed as a diver?

BAIN: Diver and general farmhand, in those days.

CRAWFORD: But some of your responsibilities were in the water. What exactly were you doing, when you were diving for work?

BAIN: In those days and even today, the predominant thing was to check nets, repair holes, recover dead fish - the mortalities from the bottom of the nets.

CRAWFORD: What would cause the holes?

BAIN: Dogfish. The small Spiny Dogfish Shark.

CRAWFORD: They would be going at the nets? Interested in getting at the Salmon?

BAIN: Predominantly gnawing on any dead fish. But certainly, Seals would attack from the outside of the nets, and tear holes. Relatively small holes.

CRAWFORD: You were doing visual net inspections. You dove inside to get the morts?

BAIN: That’s right. And most of the visual inspections were done inside. But we were also diving outside of the nets, because all of the nets were weighted, so we tied weights on and off.

CRAWFORD: Moorings?

BAIN: Mooring rocks, yeah.

CRAWFORD: How long did that diver-farmhand job go?

BAIN: Best part of five years, thereabouts.

CRAWFORD: Then what changed?

BAIN: I had a lot more diving experiences in that period, outside the Farm. 

CRAWFORD: Outside of work?

BAIN: Out of work, yes. 

CRAWFORD: When did that happen, starting roughly?

BAIN: About the age of 30. I started scubadiving at Bobs Point, Gull Rock.

CRAWFORD: Predominantly scubadiving, or freediving for spearfishing as well?

BAIN: A combination of both. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly what split? 50:50?

BAIN: Yeah, probably. The deeper water stuff was obviously on scuba. That was for Oysters, Crayfish. And then simultaneously I was freediving for spearfishing. Food gathering. 

CRAWFORD: What was your geographic range? Scubadiving, recreational scubadiving and spearfishing in Paterson Inlet?

BAIN: Yeah. Both. Scubadiving at the top end here. Burnt Point for Crayfish. Up past Kaipipi, this shore here for Crayfish. Crayfish off Ulva Island. But then further afield, Fast Rock, Fish Rock, Wharo Rock, Gull Rock.

CRAWFORD: How far north along Stewart Island would you have been a frequent visitor to?

BAIN: I wouldn’t say frequent, but occasionally as far as Gull Rock. Frequently as far as Port William, the Oyster beds here. 

CRAWFORD: And then on the south end?

BAIN: Very little experience going south, to be honest. Some at Port Adventure. Some experiences down here, snorkelling and scuba diving. At the same time as this, I was beginning, fledgling, Pāua diving. We would go as far as South-West Cape, through to the south and as far round as Ruggedy Islands in the north. Either as a dinghy person, or in the water as a Pāua diver. 

CRAWFORD: How frequent was that?

BAIN: I worked alternative five on, five off. And the five days off, for part of the year, probably a third of the year, we would be out one or two of those days.

CRAWFORD: Which season would that be? That you would be out with Pāua divers, either you diving or tending?

BAIN: Probably through the early to mid-90s.

CRAWFORD: I meant what part of the year?

BAIN: Predominantly summertime, from memory. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, a little bit on the southern end of the Island, and some as far north as the Ruggedies?

BAIN: Yes. Depending on where the sea was coming from.

CRAWFORD: Over what time period in years were you doing that kind of thing?

BAIN: Probably two and a half years, from early to mid-90s.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you do any scubadiving or Pāua diving over in the Northern Titi Island region?

BAIN: Some, yes. Certainly Edwards, right amongst what’s now regarded as the Shark Zone. North Islands. Back of Bench Island. And then as far as the Hazelburghs. 

CRAWFORD: And was that scubadiving or Pāua diving?

BAIN: This would be Pāua diving. Oh, some scubadiving on Wharo, and as far as Kanetetoe out here. 

CRAWFORD: Early to mid-90s?

BAIN: Early to mid, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s talk about spearfishing. Where was the general region that you were spending most of your time spearfishing?

BAIN: The bread and butter stuff was Ringaringa, Halfmoon Bay, Horseshoe Bay, Bobs Point, Lee Bay. 

CRAWFORD: 'Bread and butter' because of ease of access? Or the target fish?

BAIN: A little bit of both. All easily achievable by driving to. 

CRAWFORD: So, no need to go further afield?

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And the spearfishing, as you had said before, was mostly inshore bays?

BAIN: Yes. So, I didn’t need a boat to get there.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was the next important thing that changed in your activities on and around the water?

BAIN: I left the Island, and left employment with Big Glory. 

CRAWFORD: When? Roughly. 

BAIN: At about 36. So, whenever that was.

CRAWFORD: Late ‘90s?

BAIN: Late ‘90s, yeah. I graduated when I was 40, so that was …

CRAWFORD: Graduated from what?

BAIN: Otago University.

CRAWFORD: Oh. You were doing a distance education program or something?

BAIN: I did the first six months distance education through Massey University. And then I shifted to Dunedin, to finish the degree in accounting. So, I graduated there at age of 40. That was 2002.

CRAWFORD: That was a natural break. How long were you based out of Dunedin?

BAIN: Three years. Late ‘90s to early 2002. 

CRAWFORD: Any coastal activities around the Otago Peninsula? 

BAIN: I continued to freedive on the Otago Peninsula. But limited scubadiving in those days. 

CRAWFORD: Limited because of expense or …

BAIN: Yeah, access to boats, access to equipment.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But in the water as a spearfisherman?

BAIN: Yeah. Still reasonably regularly. 

CRAWFORD: Throughout the year? Or just some seasons?

BAIN: More predominantly through the summer. But still throughout the year. Once every other week in the winter.

CRAWFORD: Geographically, from where to where?

BAIN: Mainly on the Otago Peninsula. A little bit at Waikouaiti, Karitane.

CRAWFORD: Any spearfishing around Green Island?

BAIN: No, I didn’t go to Green Island. I did some fishing out of Taieri Mouth, linefishing. But I was still coming back to Stewart Island in my holidays, because we maintained a home here. So, I was still recreational diving. And even when I was at University in that period, I was still doing some dinghy boy support work for Pāua divers. 

CRAWFORD: After getting your degree, did you come directly back to Stewart Island?

BAIN: No. I then went to the West Coast of the South Island - I went to Greymouth. Worked for the West Coast District Health Board as an accountant, a management accountant for them.

CRAWFORD: Starting roughly when?

BAIN: 2002. For about four years.

CRAWFORD: Were you spending time on and around the water up there, based out of Greymouth?

BAIN: Quite limited. Some freediving off the coast of Punakaiki. Some at Jackson’s Bay.

CRAWFORD: Freediving, spearfishing?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Still some, but less?

BAIN: Yeah, much less really.

CRAWFORD: Four years you spent out at Greymouth?

BAIN: Yes. And then returned to Stewart Island after that.

CRAWFORD: When did you return to the Island? 

BAIN: Mid-2000s.

CRAWFORD: What was your job when you returned?

BAIN: I managed a hotel for a year for Helen. And then was management accountant for the joint venture Real Journeys, well Stewart Island Experience, the ferry company. 

CRAWFORD: Shore-based jobs, focusing on your business expertise? 

BAIN: Correct. However, I spent a lot of time travelling backwards and forwards on the boat. 

CRAWFORD: You mean the ferry between Stewart Island and Bluff?

BAIN: Yeah, yeah. Predominantly because some of the work was based out of Bluff. And I would crew the boat just as a matter of course, being on the boat.

CRAWFORD: How many years working for Real Journey?

BAIN: About four years. 

CRAWFORD: But from year two to year five, you were also frequently on the ferry runs. Making that trip weekly or what?

BAIN: Probably twice a week.

CRAWFORD: Ok. During that period of time when you were doing the business work, were you spending any of you offtime around the water?

BAIN: Definitely. 

CRAWFORD: Doing what? 

BAIN: Fishing, freediving. 

CRAWFORD: Freediving as in shore dive spearfishing?

BAIN: Yeah. And gathering Pāuas. 

CRAWFORD: Same region as before?

BAIN: Again, locally-based. Paterson Inlet, and the bays.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When did you wrap up your job with Real Journeys? 

BAIN: About 2010. 

CRAWFORD: Five years ago?

BAIN: Yeah, that’s correct. I was then employed as an accountant in Invercargill. 

CRAWFORD: Did you relocate to Invercargill?

BAIN: Yes, while still maintaining the home here as well. 

CRAWFORD: But spending a substantial amount of time there, around Invercargill?

BAIN: Most of my time. 

CRAWFORD: For how long?

BAIN: For four years. 

CRAWFORD: From 2010 until last year?

BAIN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Was there a certain period of the year that you were here on Stewart Island, more than others?

BAIN: It was restricted to essentially four weeks holidays, and long weekends. Easters and Labour Weekends and the Christmas break.

CRAWFORD: When you came back here, the usual shore-based spearfishing and whatever? 

BAIN: That’s right. Out on boats catching fish, or in the water.

CRAWFORD: Out on boats catching fish how?

BAIN: Again, just recreationally - linefishing. Dredging for Oysters.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That brings us up to last year. What changed then?

BAIN: I come back to abandon the professional career of computers - well, accounting. Come back to Stewart Island as more an aquaculture diver at Big Glory Bay again. 

CRAWFORD: So, it’s not quite completely full circle ... but you worked here, you worked Dunedin, Greymouth, Invercargill ... and you still came back to work Big Glory?

BAIN: That’s quite right.

CRAWFORD: And now you’re back working fulltime with the aquaculture operation?

BAIN: In a much greater degree, in a diving role. The role is more defined. Everybody's professionally qualified now as construction divers - Part One, Part Two. [AVS???]-qualified, maybe - Part Three in some instances. So, we’re capable of underwater construction activities.

CRAWFORD: Hardcore commercial diving. 

BAIN: But in a limited sense. Certainly not offshore. For aquaculture it's almost an introductory level of construction industry. 

CRAWFORD: Right. When you came back to the cage culture operation in Big Glory Bay, the disposal of mortalities - I think you said it is no longer off Ulva Island? It’s now outside of Paterson Inlet? 

BAIN: Yes, correct.

CRAWFORD: Was that required under permit, or just a different practice?

BAIN: Required under permit. And I wasn’t aware of what the initial conditions were of disposing of fish. But certainly I am aware now that it is a permitted activity.

CRAWFORD: Basically the same type of operation - just a new location?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Same kind of boat? Still the same volume, roughly?

BAIN: Probably more volume at certain times of the year. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. And just to bring that full circle as well, are you still seeing the Dogsharks when you dump the morts? 

BAIN: No, because now it’s deeper water. Not quite such a defined spot. A greater, bigger area.

CRAWFORD: Deeper and more open water?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: So, you’re not going to a particular GPS coordinate? You’re just kind of generally out in an offshore region?

BAIN: That’s correct, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: The Dogsharks are typically closer to shore? Or in embayments or in shallow waters?

BAIN: I’m not sure of their habitats, to be honest. 

CRAWFORD: You just know that they’re not out there where the morts are being dumped now?

BAIN: Well, we’re not seeing them out there. 

CRAWFORD: Are you seeing anything when you dump?

BAIN: Not really, no. 

CRAWFORD: Maybe the birds ...

BAIN: Yeah, certainly. Always the birds. And you know that’s about it really. It’s only the birds. But we’re more exposed, we’re not sitting in one spot. It’s "Get rid of them, and get out of there" - so to speak. Whereas in the early days, it was less fish, sheltered water, you were there for a moment or two, essentially in the same spot. But I don’t know the period at which it all changed - they were being dumped further afield. And now, they’re predominantly being taken back to Bluff, to be used as a resource for fertilizer.

CRAWFORD: The morts are?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Oh. So, the total volume of morts being dumped now is much reduced. 

BAIN: Yeah. It’s almost nonexistent.

CRAWFORD: And that change would have happened while you were away?

BAIN: Progressively, yes. Even last year, whilst we were still dumping some fish out here, some were going to town. But it is relatively recently, only the last eight months that it’s moving more and more to being utilized elsewhere. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. That pretty much brings us up to date. You are a resident Islander once again. You’re working fulltime for the aquaculture operation. You are in that capacity, almost exclusively diving or doing dive-related things. For your time off, are you still doing shore-based spearfishing?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Approximately how much, how frequently?

BAIN: At the moment, probably only once a fortnight.

CRAWFORD: In that same kind of general region, Paterson Inlet and the bays still?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Alright. Are you spending any other important time on the water doing anything else? You doing any Pāua diving, or anything like that?

BAIN: Just recreationally. Essentially spearfishing and Pāua gathering is done at the same time. 

CRAWFORD: Any recreational scubadiving? 

BAIN: Not really. Very limited.

CRAWFORD: Spending any time over at the Titi Islands ,or elsewhere around Stewart Island?

BAIN: No. Some fishing trips, just for a fun day - heading out to Edwards Island and the likes. 

CRAWFORD: And that’s pretty much you now?

BAIN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Anything else that you can think of, in terms of your experience on or in New Zealand coastal waters?

BAIN: No, I don’t think so.

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: In a very general sense, to what extent do you think that Māori culture and knowledge would have affected your knowledge of the marine ecosystem in general, maybe Sharks specifically?

BAIN: Low to Medium for myself. The people that I know and have dealt with over the years, there’s a relationship to their whakapapa I suppose probably is the word. But for me, I haven’t been told stories or sat in conversations with the Elders. It’s more colleagues or associates now that have some Māori ancestry that would be essentially my exposure to that kind of knowledge.

CRAWFORD: Let's do the same thing now with the Science knowledge system. In terms of your exposure to scientific thinking in general, and marine ecology in particular, where would you put that kind of exposure?

BAIN: Probably similar. It’s Low to Medium, really. I’m not a great reader. Academically I have little dealings with the science world. I’ve sat in on discussions, public meetings where behaviour of some of the sea mammals have been discussed. So, there’s some element of it. But certainly not high at any stretch. 

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: What is your first memory of knowing about White Pointers? And it could have been seeing one, or hearing about one, or anything. 

BAIN: Probably when I began scubadiving, it become something of interest or of note. Whilst I worked in Dunedin, there was a Shark attack, some time earlier. On the Otago Peninsula, at Aramoana. There was a chap there that was bitten by a Shark. That was sort of my first recollection.

CRAWFORD: So, it was not from when you were living and diving here on Stewart Island. But from when you were up in Dunedin?

BAIN: Yeah. And this is essentially as a schoolboy with my friends, scubadiving.

CRAWFORD: Right. You and your mates were doing that early scubadiving. Would you have heard from other people, "There are White Pointers here from time to time"? Or they would have told you there had been an attack there?

BAIN: Yeah, that type of thing - both. You’re aware of it. I was aware of the attack at Aramoana, and then off Cape Saunders and other areas. It was something that was sort of discussed.

CRAWFORD: Cape Saunders?

BAIN: Cape Saunders is on the Otago Peninsula as well. It’s where the lighthouse is there. Taiaroa Head, then you come around to Cape Saunders - which is slightly to the south. Areas that you could get to by land-based vehicles, to get to the water. So, it was talked of as Sharks may or may not be in the area. But it wasn’t something that kept us out of the water.

CRAWFORD: But it was on your radar. You’d be looking for large shapes, things like that. Was there ever any advice or knowledge that was shared by the old-timers about certain things to look for? Or certain things to be wary of?

BAIN: No, not that I was aware of. We were probably just ...

CRAWFORD: Kids?

BAIN: Yeah. Oblivious to any potential threat. [both chuckle] And again, we weren’t in a sort of a fishing settlement sort of scenario, where you would be meeting the locals.

CRAWFORD: You were just visiting?

BAIN: Yeah. We were outsiders. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. So that was the first time you became aware of White Pointers?

BAIN: That’s right.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen a White Pointer in the wild?

BAIN: No. 

CRAWFORD: So, for your many years, distributed as we’ve just been through, you’ve been in boats, you've been diving for work, you've been spearfishing, done some Pāua diving, been at different places around the Stewart Island over different periods of time, extensively through Paterson Inlet and around here - for upwards of 30 years. And not seen a White Pointer, while you were on or in the water.

BAIN: Correct.

CRAWFORD: When you were a young man in his early to mid-20s, do you remember stories that were told down at the wharf or wherever - stories where people would say that White Pointers were more common at this time or at that location? Those types of things?

BAIN: There probably was, but I wasn’t party to it. I can’t recall conversations where George Fife - one of the local Māori chaps that lived here all his life - ever saying to me, "Oh, don’t do that, or don’t do this" you know? I’ve never come across any warnings or any sort of words of advice in relation to the White Shark. There was certainly plenty of photos on the walls of where Sharks had been caught. There’s still the photos in the hotel at the moment, pulled up onto Butterfield's Beach just here. So, there was evidence of them being about.

CRAWFORD: Evidence of them, but those are like echoes from the past. Those echoes, those pictures on the wall at the hotel - how is it that those fish came to be caught?

BAIN: I’m not particularly sure how they come about to being caught. I presumed nets. That there was some concern there was Sharks about. One of the ones that I noticed was [Moody?? and Merv??] had a close association with Joe, and I know Joe had set the nets. I presume they all sort of blended in from that. There was the net setting out in front of the bay. You either bring them into Halfmoon or Butterfield's or Horseshoe.

CRAWFORD: Were the Sharks being targeted as a catch? This is pre-protection at this point. Or were they targeted as minimizing risk to Humans?

BAIN: I think they were probably targeted as prevention of Human risk. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So White Pointers show up in the bay, and out go the nets. And these are nets specifically designed to entangle White Pointers, so big mesh. Sid you ever see any of these catches? 

BAIN: No, no. The only thing I ever saw was the odd photo of some of the evidence of the catcher. Whether that’s historic photos or even more recent photos, where you’ve got three massive Shark heads on the back of a boat. Everybody, even then, standing back a little bit apprehensive about getting too close.

CRAWFORD: That’s a photo that you saw?

BAIN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Where was that? Do you remember?

BAIN: Yeah, one of the local fisherman’s house.

CRAWFORD: One interesting thing is that there was this community-based surveillance, in the sense that they were always keeping an eye out for White Pointers in the bays. Was that true for both Halfmoon Bay and Horseshoe Bay?

BAIN: I’m not sure to be honest. In the early days of course, there were stories about Bathing Beach, which was where the kids would swim here, before the swimming pool. Some of the children that weren’t swimming in the day, were appointed as Shark Spotters.

CRAWFORD: Yes. I’ve heard those stories as well. 

BAIN: This was before I was frequenting the Island. But chaps my age, when they were youths, that was done.

CRAWFORD: That was just part of the normal thing, right? I’m keenly interested, because that means you’ve got an embedded sensitivity, and an embedded recognition, and an embedded management.

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: The surveillance ... it’s funny, I haven’t used that word before in this case. People kept an eye open. I’ve even heard some people say that it was the pilots flying over that will have spotted the Sharks. But you’ve been out on those waters, you’ve been out and around extensively, and you have not seen these White Pointers. So at least for your period, it simply was not a common event.

BAIN: No, you’re quite right.

CRAWFORD: Over the 30 years that you spent in this region, roughly how many different times do you recall that the Shark nets would have gone out?

BAIN: I can’t recall the Shark nets per se. I can recall stories of them. And seeing evidence of. There’s often Whale strandings. There was a Whale stranding at Ocean Beach here - I gather some nets went out after that. 

CRAWFORD: Why would the nets go out after a Whale stranding?

BAIN: Yeah, I’m not sure. Whether it was to catch the Sharks in anticipation of them being there.

CRAWFORD: Of the Whale carcass attracting the Sharks?

BAIN: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: When was that?

BAIN: The one on Ocean Beach was probably, I’m guessing seven or eight years ago. There was a big stranding on Doughboy that was documented on tv.

CRAWFORD: Yes, I’ve heard about that. Those were Pilot Whales, right?

BAIN: Yes. And there was another stranding there, just the other day. I gather there was footage of the Sharks coming in, and almost frenzying on the carcasses on high tide over here. 

CRAWFORD: Who would know about that footage?

BAIN: I don’t know how you would come across it. And I don’t know who had it. But I was under the understanding there was footage. Somebody had set up lights, and they did capture it at night. So, that Whale stranding here. Both occasions there was an association with Sharks coming in. I gather the nets went out.

CRAWFORD: When you say ‘Sharks’ do you mean Sharks in general, or White Pointers in particular?

BAIN: White Pointers. 

CRAWFORD: But once again, there’s a very specific stimulus with those Whale strandings that they are responding to?

BAIN: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: You don’t just see whole bunches of White Pointers?

BAIN: No, that’s right. I’ve swum the Ocean Beach headlands, and dived in here for Pāuas, and we’ve never seen a Shark you know? 

CRAWFORD: And then all of a sudden ... Whale carcass, White Pointers?

BAIN: Yeah. They know where the food is. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Something interesting here. There are some people that have suggested that it may not simply be that the Sharks are there after the Whales strand - that they may actually contribute to the stranding. Like Orcas are known to herd and ambush their prey. But other people sometimes have a hard time thinking that a fish would have that type of individual or social capacity to herd prey. Have you ever heard anything in that regard?

BAIN: No, it’s not something that people have joined the dots on. As far as I’ve been aware. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. The idea that these 'rogue' apex predators of the oceans, as opposed to more complex social affiliations, social interactions. Anything the old-timers would have said about social interactions among White Pointers? 

BAIN: Only in the odd conversation with people of my generation that have said they been known to be seen more than one of. But you’re right, historically the perception was that they were lone rangers. In more recent times, there’s this element coming in that perhaps that’s not the case. In some brief headlines that I’ve read, which suggest that may well be the case.

CRAWFORD: Headlines like what? 

BAIN: Just in newspaper articles or magazines, National Geographics. Where, I haven’t read the whole article but you know, I see they are potentially working in unison with one another. It was something I never discounted, but the perception was still they’re predominantly a lone ranger out there.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's focus at a higher level. In general for this region - Foveaux Strait, Stewart Island - are there certain areas that are known to be places where White Pointers hang out in numbers?

BAIN: In more recent times, the Titi Island group here, the North Islands and Edwards Island. That’s only because the knowledge has become more and more apparent that they’re there. And the Shark taggings happening. We become a great deal more aware that they are there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. But in other places that are less frequented by Humans, we don’t know. We don’t have any evidence one way or another. 

BAIN: No. But when I’m diving down here ...

CRAWFORD: Port Pegasus?

BAIN: Yes. Probably in the back of my mind I’m thinking "I’m probably safer here than up north, because most of the Sharks are up north." Whether that’s right or wrong, my perception is that the sightings of the Sharks are less known down here. 

CRAWFORD: Pegasus is still a relatively frequently-visited site. If there were lots of White Pointers around Pegasus, somebody would have seen them there as much as somebody has seen up in the Titi Islands?

BAIN: Yeah. And a lot of fisherman are fishing out of Pegasus for days at a time, or weeks at a time. They’ll stay down in these sheltered bays. I’m seeing, as I say, Sevengillers there, and others are seeing them on a regular basis.

CRAWFORD: To a fish ecologist, that’s important information. Because where they aren’t, is sometimes as important as where they are. So, in a general sense, what kind of patterns have you heard about for distribution of White Pointers?

BAIN: From what I understand of the beacons, and the tracking devices, and the tagging - we know that they’re certainly crossing the face of the Paterson Inlet. We know there’s juveniles being caught in setnets around Golden Bay. I was telling my Kids "Don’t worry about White Pointers here, there’s only Sevengillers and they won’t hurt you." And then two days later, a juvenile White Shark's been caught in a setnet that wasn’t supposed to be there!

CRAWFORD: You mean the fish wasn’t supposed to be there, or the setnet wasn’t?

BAIN: Well, both. [both laugh]

CRAWFORD: Why wasn't the setnet supposed to be there? 

BAIN: They were unaware that it was a 'no setnetting' zone. 

CRAWFORD: Oh, I see. Ok. Is all of Patterson Inlet a setnet-free zone? 

BAIN: I gather so, yes. 

CRAWFORD: When was this juvenile caught, roughly?

BAIN: Probably five years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Was it somebody from here that put the setnet in, or somebody from away?

BAIN: I think it was a holiday-maker, I’m not sure. But I know the Department of Conservation were probably aware of it, because they did pull a Shark out. 

CRAWFORD: I have a request into DOC for reports under the Wildlife Protection provisions - any time a White Pointer is caught, accidentally after the protection era, it has to be reported by law. I've made that request, but haven't heard anything back from them. Well, that’s a very important observation yet again. Because occurrence of a juvenile White Pointer implies that, depending on how large the juvenile is, it could have been from a pregnant female White Pointer choosing to pup in Paterson Inlet. You didn’t see this juvenile, did you?

BAIN: No. But it was described as a seven- to eight-foot Shark, you know?

CRAWFORD: So, bigger than at live birth, but not an adult White Pointer. 

BAIN: But even a seven- or eight-foot fish would be somewhat intimidating in the water.

CRAWFORD: Yes, well it’s bigger than you and me! [both chuckle]

BAIN: That's right. Especially when they look 20 percent bigger through your dive mask.

CRAWFORD: Were there observations by other people about White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?

BAIN: No, not that I was aware of. The pinging, the tagging devices where setting off round Native Island. But we didn’t think they were coming in here. And again, I don’t know the numbers, but it was enough to prick up my ears. "Oh jeez, they are coming in. Having a look around." Because I dive Bullers Point. Probably in more recent years I've become more observant, more apprehensive. Because the prominence of them is becoming more and more known. It’s hard to ignore the fact.

CRAWFORD: You had heard about those beacons and tags indirectly, or had you been to a presentation on that? 

BAIN: Been to a presentation, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: How many times have you seen Clinton Duffy or other scientists presenting their work?

BAIN: Twice from memory, I think.

CRAWFORD: Community Centre?

BAIN: Community Centre.

CRAWFORD: When was that? 

BAIN: The last time would be probably three years ago. Probably the time before that, a year or so in front of that.

CRAWFORD: Generally well-attended?

BAIN: Oh, yeah. If you want to fill a hall, it’s unbelievable. Bring out the seats, everybody's interested.

CRAWFORD: Was the focus on those tagging data, or were there other things that you learned about White Pointers as well?

BAIN: It was a lot about their migratory habits. They had this big picture.

CRAWFORD: Map on a big scale?

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, that Science knowledge system is contributing to your knowledge, and the knowledge of everyone else in the Community Centre at that time?

BAIN: Certainly.

CRAWFORD: What I’m getting at is, given that you have that crossover of knowledge from the Science knowledge system into your head that the results of the acoustic pinging was saying that there was numerous, not just one, but numerous Sharks and over a period of time to be seen in waters that you are very familiar in diving in and yet you had not seen them.

BAIN: True.

CRAWFORD: Hell, if those White Pointers are in the region, and you’re in the water, and you don’t see them - then it is highly likely that in other instances where we don’t see them, they could still be there. We just do not see them.

BAIN: I agree totally. I think they’ve seen me, I just haven’t seen them. Undoubtedly. On the evidence that they can smell blood for a kilometre or whatever, and you're spearfishing and you’ve got fish doing the flap, flap, flap, thing. You're sending all the signals.

CRAWFORD: That’s right. And you’ve just pointed out something else important. It's not just that you’re diving. You’re diving with fish in distress. You are associated with something that conventional wisdom says White Pointers are locked into. And you didn’t even get an observation of them?

BAIN: No. So, I’m either oblivious to what's going on ... [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Which is possible. [both chuckle]

BAIN: Again, my encounters with Sevengillers have been only in recent times. And they make no noise, they just appeared ...

CRAWFORD: Shadows first?

BAIN: No. I looked down after shooting a fish, and the first one I saw was right there, with a lazy swim. But it had presumedly been attracted to the blood in the water. 

CRAWFORD: Let's talk about the general experience of your mates. Of the people you know, who share their knowledge and their stories with you, do people see these White Pointers some places but not others? What's the common knowledge?

BAIN: The general perception is that they’re regularly seen out here now.

CRAWFORD: At the Titi Islands?

BAIN: Yes. That’s because more people are taking time to stop there and have a look as well, I think. Friends who are coming over, they stop there. And they fish there, almost in the hope of seeing the Sharks. And they are seeing them.

CRAWFORD: When did that start - that increased observation?

BAIN: I’m thinking probably the last five years it has really been heightened awareness.

CRAWFORD: So, after the beginning of Shark cage tour diving?

BAIN: Yeah. But to be honest I didn’t appreciate the Shark cage divers were operating. When they told me, well through media, that they’ve been operating for four or five years. I didn’t realize that. I was oblivious to that. It was only in more recent years, perhaps the last three years, it’s become such a topic. The concern of potential behaviour changes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But you and others did spend time out at the Titi Islands. The Muttonbirders spend time over at the Islands, people go Codpotting there, there's been Pāua diving out there in the past. They’re not off-limits, they're places where people go on a regular basis. 

BAIN: Yeah, exactly.

CRAWFORD: Because you’ve been around for 30 years - not so much the last 10, but the first 20 ... back then, was it common knowledge that White Pointers frequented the Titi Islands? 

BAIN: I suspect it was. I’m sure it was. When I dived out there with Lance McCain, or when Lance was diving and I was dinghy boy. I presume it was the wintertime, and I presume that he knew they’re less likely to be there in the wintertime. 

CRAWFORD: Is Lance still around? 

BAIN: No, he’s shifted away. But I would think you’d be a brave person now to be out there in the height of the summer, knowing what we do.

CRAWFORD: You’re absolutely right, in terms of paying increased attention to the White Pointers. And now people going out of their way to spend time at the Titi Islands. Well, we’re going to see more, because we’re there more, and we're looking more. 

BAIN: Yes. Absolutely. I think the fisherman knew they were there. And the fishermen knew the stories of them following fishing boats back into Deadman’s where they were filleting fish there not so long ago.

CRAWFORD: Cleaning fish at Dead Man Bay prior to cage tour dive operations?

BAIN: Probably. People say "Oh, they’ve been seen at Deadmans for a long time." John Barry used to fillet his fish there, whether that’s true or not, I don’t know. And Deadmans is only a stone's throw away from Halfmoon Bay here. It’s close as. Yet I’ve scubadived this whole headland here on numerous occasions, and never encountered them. 

CRAWFORD: Once again, you were there and didn’t see them. But we’ve already established that they can be there - and in some numbers - and you just might not see them. 

BAIN: Right.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of seasonality, you mentioned possible knowledge that there are certain times of year when the White Pointers aren't around so much. Tell me a little bit about that.

BAIN: More recently, maybe because of the cage diving, it will become more of an association with their viewing and when the Sharks are there. They’re not operating this time of year, because the Sharks aren’t there. 

CRAWFORD: Well they’re just about to start again this season. They’re coming out of the off-season. 

BAIN: Yes, that’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Focusing on your 20 years prior to the beginning of Shark cage tour diving, did people talk about the White Pointers migrating from someplace else to here at the beginning of the season? Or from here to someplace else at the end of the season?

BAIN: I’m not sure. I wasn’t aware of it. I was blissfully unaware of it. When you talk about encounters prior to the Shark cage diving, Johnny Leask, I don’t whether you’ve met Fluff, Fluff’s Old Man on the [Rafferty??], they had the encounter when the Shark grabbed ahold of the bow of the boat, and shook the whole boat. They took the teeth out of it while it was on the slip. That was presumably about the beginning of the Shark cage diving. But it was certainly behaviour that was out of the ordinary. It’s not often you hear about a Shark latching on to a boat. [chuckles]

CRAWFOR: Fluff’s actually coming up to see me at 4 o’clock. 

BAIN: He’s a knowledgeable man, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any knowledge about White Pointers on the other side of Foveaux Strait, or out in the Strait itself?

BAIN: Oreti Beach, a young girl that was in my Daughter's school, she got bitten at the beach there, five years ago.

CRAWFORD: Shark bite, but we don’t know what kind?

BAIN: Yeah. The magnitude of the injuries would suggest it wasn’t a White Pointer.

CRAWFORD: Swimming, boarding?

BAIN: In the water, yeah. Playing around in the shallows really. I think they might have had a boogie board. Another story over here in Te Waewae Bay, was a really good one. They were out scubadiving or snorkelling, one or the tother. The guy gets bitten, and he thinks it's one of the boys playing a prank on him, giving him a bit of a shake on the leg - before he realizes in fact it was a Shark. The visibility was really poor. He was a doctor at the hospital. Gets out of the water, sees his leg, goes "Oh bugger, I’ve been bitten." He lets the boys know that there’s something in the water, perhaps we should abandon activities for the day. He goes to the pub at Colac Bay, puts a bit of dressing on his leg, has a beer, and goes back later to the hospital where he worked, and gets stitched up. It was an absolutely great story. 

CRAWFORD: When did that happen?

BAIN: Oh, the last couple of years. It was in the Southland Times. 'Te Waewae Bay Shark Encounter.' 

CRAWFORD: Poor water visibility. 

BAIN: Yeah poor viz. I’ve dived Bluff Head. I do look over my shoulder, I do look for big shadows. There’s no two ways about it. I used to dive with my kit in my hand. 

CRAWFORD: You use a float now?

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When did you start using a float?

BAIN: Probably the last five years. So, my behaviour has changed, yeah. I’m no great gismo spearfisherman, but I hunt and gather fish predominantly in this area. And have done so for 25, 30 years. And yeah, no encounters. Touch wood. I can do without them.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's think about New Zealand as a whole. Places that people consider to be hotspots for White Pointers. For example, many people know that the Chatham Islands are also a hotspot for White Pointers. Why do you think that there might be an abundance of White Pointers out at the Chathams? 

BAIN: I don’t know. It is a good distance. But you know when I grew up, the Otago Peninsula was rumoured to be a breeding ground. Whether there was any truth to it or not, but that was the rumour. Whether it was a myth or not ...

CRAWFORD: Have people talked about Stewart Island as being a breeding ground, or a feeding ground, or anything like that?

BAIN: Only in more recent times.

CRAWFORD: What about back in your first 20 years?

BAIN: No. We were oblivious to it. There was Shark sightings. People knew of them. I didn’t really follow too closely. But now we’re starting to see that they’re coming here for a migration, perhaps breeding purposes.

CRAWFORD: Any place else in New Zealand that you associate with White Pointers?

BAIN: No, not really. Up North Island, Hauraki Harbour or Hokianga Harbour, or something like that - there had been some sightings, I thought. But I don’t really associate anywhere other than down south as being particularly abundant.

CRAWFORD: You were in your early 20s when you got to Stewart Island first, and you are in your early 50s now. 

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Over those 30 years, from a general ecosystem kind of perspective, and especially the aquatic ecosystem - have you noticed any major trends? I know you spend most of your time in Paterson Inlet and the adjacent waters, so I guess I’m focusing on that. Have you noticed any major changes in the ecosystem that would have struck you over the 30 years?

BAIN: This last year I spent some time in Pegasus, diving in the likes of Pegasus and Port Adventure. And in both instances, the prevalence of Sevengill Sharks seemed to be quite a noticeable increase.

CRAWFORD: Port Adventure in Paterson Inlet, and Port Pegasus at the southern end of Stewart Island?

BAIN: Yes, definitely. And then Big Glory Bay where the Salmon Farms are, historically we didn’t see any Sharks other than maybe the Dogfish. Sevengill Sharks are quite regularly seen now. And also other Sharks, they call the Salmon Shark or Porbeagle, have sometimes been sighted. Thoughts there was Mako Sharks may have been in the region, but they look similar to a Porbeagle or a Salmon Shark I gather. But certainly Sevengillers, from my own experiences, seeing them on quite a regular basis. 

CRAWFORD: 'Regular' meaning what? 

BAIN: Well, within two days of a trip here, diving at Port Adventure. And two days later at Port Pegasus, encounters with them within moments of shooting fish. 

CRAWFORD: So, from your perspective, a pretty clear indication of cause and effect in terms of your activity as a spearfisherman, and then closely thereafter the presence of the Sevengillers?

BAIN: Maybe a bit of a leap. Certainly, the first occasion was within minutes of shooting a fish - one was there. But the second occasion two days later, I was freediving for Shellfish. So I didn’t have ...

CRAWFORD: So, that wasn’t spearfishing, but the Sevengillers were still approaching?

BAIN: They’re inquisitive, but not aggressive.

CRAWFORD: You haven’t had any divefin biting, or coming at you from different angles?

BAIN: No. Although colleagues at the Salmon Farm have had. Not whilst I’ve been with them in the water, but they tell me stories of the occasional bite on the fin.

CRAWFORD: A little bit more aggressive behaviour?

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That is in response to me asking about changes over the past 30 years. Three decades ago, you just didn’t see Sevengill Sharks?

BAIN: I didn’t. 

CRAWFORD: What about your mates?

BAIN: In those days we did some freediving at Port Adventure, and they were known to come into the Heron River. I gather they were flushing Lice out of their gills or something in the freshwater. That was an explanation I heard as to why they were in the river. So, it wasn’t uncommon for them to be seen in the Heron River and in Port Adventure. However, the times that I dived in there, I never seen them. But anecdotally and in more recent times, there's a lot more sightings of them - Sevengillers at Port Adventure and Port Pegasus. They seem to be much more prevalent.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other big kinds of ecosystem-level changes around Stewart Island over that time. 

BAIN: No, not noticeably. The Dolphins, Bottlenose Dolphins have always been around - quite large pods of Dolphins. They continue to be. Other fish species sort of come and go, well not come and go, but are seen more sometimes. Barracouta, no more prevalent now than they were.

CRAWFORD: What about Seals?

BAIN: Seals, certainly. There was issues with Seals.

CRAWFORD: What do you mean by 'issues'?

BAIN: They were frequenting the Salmon Farm when I was there in the earlier days. To the extent where we electrified a lot of the cages so that they were not coming over the tops.

CRAWFORD: Has that kind of Seal interaction declined, or stayed the same, or what? 

BAIN: The necessity to do that is diminished. So, we no longer have Seal issues that we once had.

CRAWFORD: In general, when you think of Stewart Island and Seal colonies - especially where there are major pupping grounds - where do you think of?

BAIN: Certainly Bench Island, and the Titi Island group.

CRAWFORD: All around those Islands?

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Where else?

BAIN: Predominantly there. Port Adventure and Pegasus, you see the Sea Lions more so. Yeah, certainly there is a degree of Seal activity as well, in Pegasus. 

CRAWFORD: What about up along the northern end of Stewart Island?

BAIN: In more recent years, I’ve had very little exposure to the northern part of the Island. So, I’m not seeing them. And even out here, I’m not out here as I once was, when I was crew support or dinghy boy for the Pāua divers. Just not seeing the Seals to the same degree. But I think that’s because more I’m not in their environment, as opposed to them not being there. I don’t know that there’s any more fish life, any great changes, no. I’m not noticing them.

CRAWFORD: Not over your 30 years, anyway.

BAIN: No. Other than the Sevengillers. That would be the only thing that I hadn’t had encounters with in Big Glory Bay or outside before. But they are particularly prevalent in Big Glory Bay now. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the Sevengillers, their increase might in any way be related to the Salmon Farm operation itself?

BAIN: I think it’s part of a bigger thing. As I say to people that see them, hunters in the hunting blocks, some of them are in Big Glory Bay, but many of them are down here ...

CRAWFORD: 'Hunting blocks'?

BAIN: Hunting Deer. The hunters are seeing them as well. But I think anecdotally, there’s a greater prevalence of them. And as a consequence, they’re coming into the Bay as well. But they are definitely in the Farm, and causing problems in the Farm, which they never did in the past.

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

CRAWFORD: Let's start with what you know generally about the cage tour dive operations. Where do they go, and what kinds of things do they do? 

BAIN:  As I said, I wasn’t aware that they were operating to any great degree, up until the last two or three years. And obviously they’d been operating. So I gather prior to that. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know roughly when they would have started?

BAIN: I'm picking five years ago.

CRAWFORD: Where do they go, what do they do?

BAIN: I gather that their focus is the Edwards Island - North Island region. The Titi Island group here. I understood that they used to use quite heavy berley, that was substantial in size, so that there was an element of feeding involved. Plus, Tuna pieces that they were dragging through the water to attract the Sharks past the cages. 

CRAWFORD: So, berley and bait?

BAIN: Berley and bait. My original understanding was that there was originally an element of feeding going on with the operation. Attracted through berley. Keeping them interested through food. And quite regular sightings through the summer season, November through March type of thing.

CRAWFORD: Titi Islands, no place else?

BAIN: From my understanding, yes. That was my understanding of where they’re operating from. Mike obviously operating out of Bluff, going out and back for the day. Pete operating out of Stewart Island, going out in the morning, coming back in the evening. 

CRAWFORD: Halfmoon Bay, Oban specifically?

BAIN: Yes. Or coming round to Golden Bay, depending on the weather and where they moor up. 

CRAWFORD: You know that that has changed now? 

BAIN: Yeah. I gather that Pete’s not operating from here, he’s operating from Bluff. Which is a bit of a sigh of relief to many, because rightly or wrongly, the perception was that there was potential for the Sharks to be following a boat.

CRAWFORD: Now we’re getting into it. The vessel goes to a place, there is a berley stream released into the water, and then later some bait on a rope to bring the White Pointers close to the cage. The permit actually says they have to do everything they can to make sure the Sharks don’t get the bait. They have to document when the Sharks do get it the bait.

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. The Sharks show up. The People go in the cage. They take their photos and videos. At the end of four or five hours, whatever the case may be, up comes the cage, and back to Bluff or wherever. Realizing that the Sharks are responding to a whole bunch of other things as well. But in that context, the Shark cage tour dive operations themselves, do you think that the operations would be having an important effect on the White Pointers' behaviour or biology?

BAIN: Yeah, I do. The evidence is probably somewhat weak. But just in my observations with the smaller species the Dogfish - that they would recognize boats, and associate that boat and that feed. That they would come to the surface to get the feed of mortalities of Salmon. That the same thing would be learned behaviour of other Sharks in the region. I’m not saying that they brought the Sharks to the region, I don’t believe that for a moment.

CRAWFWORD: The Sharks were always here?

BAIN: Yeah. And there may be more of the Sharks, because of the increase in Seals, without knowing exactly what they eat entirely. But you know, the colonies around South Africa and the likes - we know that they populate around rookeries of Seals. And it makes sense that if the Seal population is exploding, the Shark population will follow suit. I don’t think that’s attributable to the Shark cage operation. But I do believe that some of the association with boats and Sharks could be a direct derivative of Shark cage diving or fishing. The fishing industry you know, catching the fish, trying to dispose of the frames. So, I put them both in a similar way.

CRAWFORD: You have unique insight, in the sense that you have direct experience with the mortalities from the Fish Farm. Different species of Shark, but at least in that species there is an association of food with either the dump place and/or the boat. Let's just dig into that very briefly. Do you think that, if another boat, let's say a tour boat or a charter boat - something that wasn’t the boat that was being used for the mortalities for the Fish Farm - if it went to that dump location, do you think that the Sharks would come to it?

BAIN: If the sonar signal is similar, I think yes. What I’m saying is that the vibration of an aluminium boat with an outboard just ticking over ...

CRAWFORD: So, let's say a sailboat for starters. If a sailboat came sailing over, not motoring, do you think that the Sharks would come to that boat?

BAIN: No, no. It is the sonar, or the acoustic signal, I believe is what matters.

CRAWFORD: I was just thinking ... was there any overlap with the boat that you are currently using to dump Fish Farm morts offshore - was it ever used off Ulva Island?

BAIN: No, no. Because it’s bigger. Bigger water, unsheltered. We need a bigger boat. 

CRAWFORD: Right. I was thinking, if it was the same boat and you just went over and stopped off Ulva Island there for a little bit, would the Sharks come? But that was many years ago too, right?

BAIN: Yes. That’s right.

CRAWFORD: Which is another important part of this. That there could be an effect, but that effect could have a time period associated with it. It could diminish over time.

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Learned behaviour can sometimes get unlearned over time. 

BAIN: That was where I was hopeful now, that we’ll probably get back to. Now the permitting process is such that the degree of feeding is almost removed, and now it's just an attraction through smell. They’re not getting potentially satisfied. That the behaviour is going to be unlearned - the association of the boat with the food. Some evidence of that would be that the Sharks are now turning up to the boats, but aren’t hanging around. 

CRAWFORD: Where does that knowledge come from?

BAIN: From talking to the likes of Fluff, who’s been involved with them. Been out there on a day where very limited sightings. They saw the Sharks briefly, then they didn’t see them again. The cage divers are standing on the back of the Shark boats, waiting and waiting and waiting for the day. And friends that have been out, have been out for the whole day, and didn’t see any Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: Friends that had gone out to the Titi Islands and berleyed to see a White Pointer on their own?

BAIN: No. An acquaintance that booked on the Shark cage dive boat.

CRAWFORD: Oh, I see. And had a day of no Sharks during the tour dive operation?

BAIN: No Sharks. And whether that’s because someone has killed a Shark and threw it in the water ...

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’re expanding in a couple of different ways. Let's focus on response of White Pointers to a dead White Pointer. First, in New Zealand, White Pointers are now legally protected, and people are not allowed to kill them intentionally.

BAIN: That’s right.

CRAWFORS: People are not allowed to target setnet for them, and if they happen to incidentally catch a White Pointer in a setnet or a longline or whatever - they have to report it to DOC. But there are also people who have suggested that intentional killing of White Pointers still takes place, whether its setnetting or baited drums or shooting them.

BAIN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: That back in the day it was a normal thing to kill White Pointers, if you had the opportunity. That it still continues today at some levels, though it’s not reported or widely discussed. I’m not out to get anybody, but if it was happening, I suspect people in the community would know. 

BAIN: That’s right. But then you also wonder why the Sharks aren’t there. And you wonder why the operators are having trouble seeing them, and they haven’t seen Sharks for three or four days on their trips. And you’re going "Oh, perhaps somebody has shot one, and it’s been dumped."

CRAWFORD: Where does this idea that a dead White Pointer causes other White Pointers to clear out from an area?

BAIN: I’m not sure, but it’s certainly become prevalent in the TV3 article, and Zane's interaction with one of the operators.

CRAWFORD: Is it something that people in general on Stewart Island know - that the presence of a carcass, a dead White Pointer causes other Sharks to go away?

BAIN: I don’t know. It would be a good question for Fluff to be honest. He’s got some great stories, newspaper stories, and all the rest of it. What I didn’t say though, was when Lance McCain and I were Pāua diving, we had dived these islands. I can’t recall exactly the time of the year, and I’m assuming it was the wintertime when they weren’t about. He would dive with a powerhead on his suit. They’re illegal now, but I don’t know that they were then. Like a .303 cartridge in something not much bigger than a pistol. That was his protection. Basically a stick - a handheld powerhead he had modified.

CRAWFORD: So, if something came too close ...

BAIN: He had one of these on his chest.

CRAWFORD: Obviously that was some type of perceived personal risk, and that’s how he managed his risk. He had a defensive tool.

BAIN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Let's get back to the effects of cage tour dive operations. Do you think that there would be the potential for association between the food and the place? That the Sharks would recognize the smell of food and would associate the place "Oh, this is feeding area here" - without necessarily associating with the boat?

BAIN: No. They’re going to be there because of the abundance of Seals. So, the association with food is already there. The interaction with boats is directly derivative of what’s going over the side of the boat, whether that be berley or fish frames. 

CRAWFORD: Have you, or any of your mates, seen White Pointers taking Seals?

BAIN: No. But stories of Pāua divers watching half-a-Seal float by with its entrails hanging out.

CRAWFORD: Things that are very likely the remnants of a Shark-Seal interaction?

BAIN: Yeah. But they didn’t see the actual attack. 

CRAWFORD: Do you believe that it’s possible and probable that the White Pointers are associating the smell of food with a boat in general, or that boat in particular?

BAIN: I think it probably started off with that boat, and potentially has spread to other boats. 

CRAWFORD: For a boat that has been involved with cage tour dive operations, what happens if that boat shows up and doesn't berley or do any of the other cage operations? 

BAIN: That’s right. Because I’m interested in one of these boats. And I always wondered whether ...

CRAWFORD: 'Always been interested' as in buying?

BAIN: Yeah. Pete Scott's selling. 

CRAWFORD: His boat, the Argo? 

BAIN: Yeah. I think the behaviour would be ... personally I think it's unlearned as well. If I believe it’s learned behaviour, I also think it's probably unlearned. It comes up past the Salmon Farm ...

CRAWFORD: What does?

BAIN: The Argo, for a bit of a cruise. 

CRAWFORD: The Argo comes into Big Glory Bay?

BAIN: Yeah, on occasion - not regularly. But it had done when I was there one day. If any of the stories that the Sharks were following the boat were true, we were then going "Oh shit, he’s brought a Shark up to the bay."

CRAWFORD: Let's focus on that kind of following behaviour. Do you think that White Pointers follow boats in general? Including Codpotting boats or any other type of boat?

BAIN: Inconclusive. I would be leaning towards the yes, but no real support for that. Other than my Brother was fishing off Native Island, the Argo goes past, my Brother hooks up a big Shark. Now he doesn’t know what type of Shark it was. Could be totally unrelated, but it may well have been related. At the same time, he’s hooking more Sharks in the Inlet than he was. But I also know there's a greater prevalence of Sevengillers - so, he could be hooking Sevengillers. A big fish is a big fish, until you get it to the surface. And he’s losing gear.

CRAWFORD: Do you know of anybody else that has observations, or any other type of evidence, that would support the idea of White Pointers following any type of boat? Whether it’s a Codpotter, or a Shark cage tour dive boat, or anything?

BAIN: Well, not first-hand. And again, how the stories evolve as to the truth of them. But yeah, there was. I understood, and I could be totally mistaken, that Pete himself was coming into the Bay one day, and again as to how much truth is in it, that there were kids playing on the wharf and that he radioed through. I don’t know whether this is the case or not, I’d be surprised if it was ... that he said "Perhaps the kids shouldn’t be in the water while I’m coming in." Now it seems pretty contrary to what he would want to be saying as an operator. But what I understand, he is quite a nice guy, maybe he would. Again, how much truth's to it, I don’t know. But that’s the story.

CRAWFORD: Knowledge is embedded in stories. Some stories are true, some stories are partly true, and some stories are untrue. I’m trying to collate whatever evidence people might be thinking of, when they talk about following behaviour with these White Pointers.

BAIN: If we go back to the Deadmans example, where again I personally haven’t seen it, but the stories were that people in the day filleted fish off Deadmans. The Sharks were there. I’ve dived at Deadmans, and haven’t seen the Sharks. So, I can only assume that when I was there, they weren’t there. Or they were following the boats in, knowing they were going to get a feed. And the frames in the guts of these Sharks that have been caught are evidence. Whether it’s passing behaviour or following behaviour - I lean towards the idea that it’s probably a following behaviour, if that association with food is maintained. And as I said before, the new guidelines in which the Shark guys supposedly are operating under, that association may be dis-established. The learned behaviour is maybe come undone. And to me, that would be quite a good solution. That the potential threat has been minimized a little bit.

CRAWFORD: You are the first person in the interviews that has brought up that idea. Many people implicitly or explicitly talk about learning, you’re the first person to talk about unlearning. That over time, if there is a learned association, that it dissipates. That it breaks down over time.

BAIN: They’re obviously clever creatures, so yeah. 

Copyright © 2020 Peter Bain and Steve Crawford