Olaf Nilsen

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Olaf, you said in your introduction that you were born in Invercargill? 

NILSEN: Yes, that's correct. 

CRAWFORD: When do you remember first spending significant time in and around New Zealand coastal waters? 

NILSEN: Oh, probably from about three years old, really.

CRAWFORD: From your first memories, first long-term memories at least?

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: What regions would you have been in? 

NILSEN: Round Stewart Island. Out at our farm, at the mouth of Paterson Inlet, just right here. And also down towards Pegasus, Ernest Island for Muttonbirding. That area. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of Muttonbirding, was this customary access? 

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Was it your family only that had access to the island for the Muttonbirding?

NILSEN: No, no. This was a Crown island we actually got a permit to go to for that period. But we shifted round to another island round here, round to Mokinui; Moggy, they call it. I have a house there I built in 1970. 

CRAWFORD: So, from the early days it was Muttonbirding off of Port Pegasus? 

NILSEN: Yeah, Ernest island. 

CRAWFORD: Would that have been maybe six weeks out of the year?

NILSEN: No, we didn’t go that long. It was probably only two weeks at that stage, when it was the torching period. 

CRAWFORD: But you as a young kid ...

NILSEN: Yes, it was only that short period. I guess my parents thought they could only go for that stage, you know. I guess they were busy enough.

CRAWFORD: Spending time there as a kid, would that have been a seasonal thing during holidays? Or would that be weekends through the year as well? 

NILSEN: No, no, no. Just a seasonal thing, when the season was there. We used to spend time down at the farm, which has got a lot of beaches all around the water there.

CRAWFORD: At the farm, you would have been running around as a kid - both on the Patersen Inlet side, but also on the ocean side? 

NILSEN: Yes, on the ocean side. As well as down Port Adventure. We used to spend a lot of Christmases down at Port Adventure. So, we did spend a lot of time there was well. 

CRAWFORD: Did you spend any time on the north shore of Foveaux Strait? 

NILSEN: Well, I did as I got a bit older. My Uncle and Auntie used to have a farm at Colac Bay. So, I did spend a bit of time on the water there as well. We used to get a little boat, and go out fishing at Centre Island and Escape Reefs. Caught a lot of Groper. 

CRAWFORD: That’s important. What age were you, when you started spending time there at Colac Bay?

NILSEN: Probably, six or seven. 

CRAWFORD: And again, weekends and seasonal? 

NILSEN: It was mainly holidays. We used to bring back heaps of ... that’s where the Stewart Island Frogs come from. They come from there. I used to pack them - sold them to kids at the school.

CRAWFORD: I have no idea what Stewart Island Frogs are. 

NILSEN: Oh, ok. They’re not overly plentiful, but they are there. And that’s where they come from. They came from Lake George, that’s where I used to catch. It's right in Colac Bay. I used to catch them there, and bring them back, and sell them to the school kids. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you spent time on the water, were you playing around with dinghies, fishing, those sorts of things? 

NILSEN: Yes, that's correct.

CRAWFORD: What kind of fishing? Linefishing?

NILSEN: Linefishing mostly. And Crayfishing, of course. 

CRAWFORD: Pāuas? 

NILSEN: Pāuas, yeah. Scallops, Pipis. Anything, you know. Mussels. 

CRAWFORD: At what point did you start spending significantly more time, or a different kind of activity? You were a kid, from your earliest memories spending time around Stewart Island. Little bit later, Colac Bay. Sometimes people say when they got access to the car, then they would go different places, do different things?

NILSEN: Well, I guess I didn’t spend as much time around Stewart island as we shifted to Bluff when I was 15. We were fishing just the same, but probably not involved around Halfmoon Bay and Patersen's Inlet quite as much, even though we still had the farm.

CRAWFORD: When did you get your fist job?

NILSEN: It was with my Dad, when I was 15. 

CRAWFORD: Doing what?

NILSEN: Crayfishing and catching Cod. 

CRAWFORD: How big was his boat?

NILSEN: His boat was only 38 feet. 

CRAWFORD: And where did it sail out of, Bluff? 

NILSEN: Bluff and Stewart Island. But as I said, we started in 1967, then we shifted to Bluff during that period. And when we shifted to Bluff, I finished school and went fishing with me Dad. 

CRAWFORD: Within a year, was there a season for Crayfish? When did it start? 

NILSEN: Around August, September. 

CRAWFORD: And ran till when? 

NILSEN: Maybe January. 

CRAWFORD: And then what did you do in the off-season? 

NILSEN: Well, we used to go and catch Cod whenever. And also, then Muttonbirding played a big part of things.

CRAWFORD: And that’s in a consistent period of time, a season as well. 

NILSEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: When you were Muttonbirding at that age, were you Muttonbirding for a full six weeks or so? 

NILSEN: Yes, I was. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Crayfishing, generally what regions for that? 

NILSEN: Crayfishing was the South West Cape. And all around this area here, [Gord Bay??], all around here. And round Moggy. And this area here, as well. 

CRAWFORD: Getting up to Doughboy? 

NILSEN: Doughboy and Red Head, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, generally the southwest corner of Stewart Island?

NILSEN: Generally, the southwest corner. Now, I’ve never done any Crayfishing anywhere around there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you were Codding was it linefishing? Codpotting? 

NILSEN: When I first started, it was lining with my Dad. To be honest, I never done Codpotting. I done very, very, little Codpotting.

CRAWFORD: You were still old school.

NILSEN: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly, what regions were you Codding?

NILSEN: Generally, around the same area. Just this area as well. We didn’t do anything around this area north of the Island at all. 

CRAWFORD: Even though you were coming out of Bluff, and coming out of Halfmoon Harbour?

NILSEN: Yeah. I guess my Dad knew this area pretty well, all these areas. They originally lived down here in Port Pegasus, when the factory was there. 

CRAWFORD: That was before you were born? 

NILSEN: Yes, that was before I was born. 

CRAWFORD: You and your Dad fishing - when did that go until?

NILSEN: Oh, it was quite a brief period I suppose. It was from '67 till maybe '72. 

CRAWFORD: And then what happened in '72?

NILSEN: I actually bought my own boat. 

CRAWFORD: How big?

NILSEN: She was about 40 feet.

CRAWFORD: Crayfishing? Codpotting? 

NILSEN:  Crayfishing, yeah. I put some Codpots on, and went round the Island, and in a matter of two to three days I threw them off again at Bluff. And that was my Codpotting career. [both laugh]

CRAWFORD: Ok. Crayfishing, though ...

NILSEN: Crayfishing was the big part of it. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly the same season and location as with your Dad?

NILSEN: Yes, we ran that general area as well. Mostly around where we were actually Muttonbirding, where I started the Crayfishing. And then the next was in Fiordland, mostly Dusky Sound. 

CRAWFORD: But now you’re the skipper, it’s your operation. Fulltime Crayfishing. Split between South West Cape and Fiordland. Pretty much full year-round?

NILSEN: It just depended. There was a lot of down-time. And I enjoyed my Muttonbirding. We used to go and do our six weeks, or whatever it was. Had a little bit of Tuna fishing up on the west coast, Greymouth way. Just the odd season. If the season was good, we’d go and just really fill in. 

CRAWFORD: Realizing that it changes year to year, but what would the split in Crayfishing have been - between South West Cape and Dusky Sound? 50:50?

NILSEN: No, no. It got more and more Fiordland. We started down in the Sou'West Cape, and then it was 95% in Fiordland. 

CRAWFORD: How long did that run? Until there was another boat, or something else with your operation that was different? 

NILSEN: Well, we had a big change in 1983 when I built another boat - a bigger boat.

CRAWFORD: How big? 

NILSEN: She’s 60-odd feet. 

CRAWFORD: Geared for what kind of fishing? 

NILSEN: She was geared for Crayfishing as well as setnetting. 

CRAWFORD: This was a bigger vessel that was going to be able to take you different places, further afield? 

NILSEN: No, virtually the same areas. Just bigger capacity. And also, it enabled us to fish the same areas, but for different species. 

CRAWFORD: When you started setnetting was there a particular target species? 

NILSEN: Yeah, there was a target species - which was School Shark. 

CRAWFORD: And where would you be setting those School Shark nets?

NILSEN: Everywhere. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of region? Like all the way around Stewart Island?

NILSEN: Everywhere. All the way around the Island. 

CRAWFORD: And this was something you focused on mostly when you weren’t Crayfishing? In the off-season, you went after School Shark? 

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Overall, would that have been like a 50-50 split in fishing effort? 

NILSEN: Well, around that period the quota system come in. So, we’d catch our Crayfish quota, and then we’d go catch our School Shark quota. In the earlier years we’d go almost to April. But once we built the boat, we used to start again; finish Crayfishing around January, and then do our Shark. Gradually, the Crayfish season got shorter and shorter, and Shark season got longer and longer. And we haven't stopped since, we've been consistent. Same regions.

CRAWFORD: Right. Doing any setnetting up around Fiordland? 

NILSEN: Yeah, yeah. All the way through Fiordland. 

CRAWFORD: How far? 



NILSEN: Right up to Jackson’s Bay. 

CRAWFORD: So, Jackson’s, down through Fiordland, Foveaux Strait, all the way around Stewart Islands. Over around Chaslands and up the east side?

NILSEN: Yes, we have. Recently we’ve gone up as far as Chaslands. We had some [Ace??] we needed to catch up there. It's generally to Waipapa Point, right through. We’ve even been down the Snares recently. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about the Solanders? 

NILSEN: Solanders, yeah of course. 

CRAWFORD: Out to the Chathams? 

NILSEN: No, no. Our Area 5 was what we concentrate on, which is basically from just south of Jackson’s Bay round to Waipapa Point. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. Between early-80s and now - were there any other major changes? 

NILSEN: We shifted here [Queenstown] about four years ago, because I actually lived in Queensland for a while.

CRAWFORD: When did you move to Queensland? 

NILSEN: '96. 

CRAWFORD: How long did you stay there? 

NILSEN: Seventeen years. Something like that. 

CRAWFORD: So, even though you were running a fishing operation here, you were physically living in Australia? 

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a different kind of unique overseas experience. 

NILSEN: I know. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Did you still come back for Muttonbirding every year?

NILSEN: Yeah. I crossed the Tasman 25 times a year. 

CRAWFORD: So, you really were 'local' in a bigger sense. You were local here, and local in Queensland, during those 17 years? 

NILSEN: Yeah, I used to fly back. Look at the weather map. "Ok, I’ll get on that plane in the morning." Bang. I’ll be in Dunedin. And I'd be in Bluff, and away fishing.

CRAWFORD: I get it now. I really don’t know any other commercial fishermen that I've met here in New Zealand, who commuted that kind of way. 

NILSEN: No. I’m the only one. 

CRAWFORD: What was the draw to Queensland? 

NILSEN: My Children were quite little, and I felt the schooling wasn’t up too much in Fiordland, in Te Anau. So we thought "Right, we’ll go overseas, and I can travel backwards and forwards." And my Wife got into the medical field, and she ended up saving her own life. So, it was all worth it in the end. 

CRAWFORD: Did you have a fishery that you set up in Australia?

NILSEN: No, no. I didn’t get into it. I was trying to, but I just felt it wasn’t quite feasible enough. I done it strictly for the family. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Through that latter period of about 20 years while you were commuter fishing, was there any other new gear, new species, new anything? Or has that pretty much been it? 

NILSEN: Not really. I have noticed there’d been a few new species, like Kingfish that have definitely gotten more abundant. We’re getting the likes of ... what do you call it ... Makos. But I’m just unsure of that, because I said about the Makos recently to someone, and they said "No, they’re not Makos, they’re actually Porbeagles." But Porbeagles are similar to Makos aren’t they? 

CRAWFORD: Generally. 

NILSEN: Years ago, we used to only get one or two a year. But some days now, you might get two or three in a day. 

CRAWFORD: You’ve been fishing long enough, you’ve seen ups and downs, you’ve seen big year-classes, you’ve seen environmental changes. That’s part of the reason why I’m talking to you, is because you’ve got experience dating way back. 

NILSEN: Yeah. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: To what level has Māori cultural and knowledge contributed to your knowledge of the marine ecosystem generally?

NILSEN: Probably medium. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of Science, same question - how much has it affected your knowledge of marine ecosystems?

NILSEN: At the moment, or in the years gone by?

CRAWFORD: Overall, now. Accumulated over the years.

NILSEN: Well it’s gone from very low, years gone by - to probably more into medium to high at the moment. 

CRAWFORD: Why is it that you say it’s gone medium to high?

NILSEN: Well, I’m generally interested. Over the years I’ve not given it a lot of thought, in early stages. I’m gradually building up a better picture over time. 

CRAWFORD: You have been around for a while. You have seen a lot of things. Do you think that there have been significant changes in the marine ecosystem, over your lifetime? That you’ve seen? Or has it been pretty consistent?

NILSEN: I think it’s been reasonably consistent. Apart from a few species changes. As far as the Muttonbirding goes, it's been up and down. It's been good fishing and bad fishing. But generally, it’s been reasonably stable. 

CRAWFORD: Over your lifetime. 

NILSEN: Over my lifetime, yeah. 

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: Have you seen live White Pointers in the wild?

NILSEN: No, apart from in the net. That’s the only time. 

CRAWFORD: Live in the net, or dead? 

NILSEN: Probably still alive. 

CRAWFORD: And this would have been in your setnetting days?

NILSEN: Yes, it was.

CRAWFORD: All of your other time Crayfishing or Codpotting, you never saw White Pointers? 

NILSEN: No, no. 

CRAWFORD: It was only when you started setting nets specifically for School Sharks that occasionally you would get a White Pointer tied up in your gear? 

NILSEN: That’s correct. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Do you remember what the old-timers said about White Pointers? Did they say there were certain places or certain times, anything like that?

NILSEN: Probably the only place I can remember them saying was up at Ruggedy, round the Ruggedy Islands there. It was sort of well known, that there were White Pointers up there. 

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers ever say why there?

NILSEN: I’m not sure. No, they didn’t actually. But it come up in quite a lot of conversations. That it was bad up there. 

CRAWFORD: So, Ruggedy. Also, on the inside of Codfish?

NILSEN: More just around Ruggedy, though. For some reason. 

CRAWFORD: Something was going on. But you don’t remember anybody saying "Oh, it's for this reason, or for that reason"?

NILSEN: No. And never, never did I ever hear them say where they are cage diving now.

CRAWFORD: Back in the day, you don’t remember anybody saying there were White Pointers around the Northern Titi Islands?

NILSEN: There were no consistent sightings. 

CRAWFORD: You’d maybe have an observation here or there, once in a while ...

NILSEN: Yeah, maybe here and there. But nothing compared to what it was in Ruggedy. I used to always hear about Ruggedy. 

CRAWFORD: That’s very interesting. Ok. You spent a lot of time around Paterson Inlet back in the day. I’m presuming you were out there swimming, in the dinghy, doing a little bit of fishing?

NILSEN: And my Dad used to set little bait nets, you know to catch a feed of Moki, Greenbone, that sort of thing. He said at the farm, we had Bluefin Tuna there. But I never recall him saying he ever had a Great White or anything like that.

CRAWFORD: That was both on the inlet side, and the ocean side?

NILSEN: That’s correct. 

CRAWFORD: Never really heard of White Pointers there from other people either?

NILSEN: No. The only recent ones I heard was one of the other guys had set nets in the back of the Neck, and got two White Pointers in Back Beach here. 

CRAWFORD: On the ocean side of the Neck? 

NILSEN: On the ocean side, yeah.

CRAWFORD: When was that? 

NILSEN: Five years ago, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: So, in recent times?

NILSEN: Yeah, recent times.

CRAWFORD: But back in the day, no word. And that’s the type of thing that if somebody saw one - word would have gotten around? People would have talked about it?

NILSEN: Yeah. I never heard of it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay?

NILSEN: Yeah, well I have heard about that. I remember when I was a kid, when I was about eight or thereabouts, I remember somebody catching one in Halfmoon Bay. I’m not sure even how it was caught, but I remember it hanging up, they pulled it up on the boom. They went to gut it ... and it must have been still alive, because I remember the rope broke somehow, and it fell in the water. And there was bits of liver, and I remember it grabbing hold of the liver.

CRAWFORD: 'Grabbing hold' as in feeding on its own liver? 

NILSEN: Yeah, yeah. It must have been still alive, because a lot of Sharks actually play sort of dead at times. I know with the Makos, for instance ... recently we had this quite big Mako, probably a couple hundred kilos. We pulled her up in the net, and we undone it. We were picking the mesh out of the teeth. And we let them all go, of course. And I though "It’s gotta be dead." But anyway, I throw it away. We slid it back into the water, and I was 95% sure that Shark was dead. And it went in the water, and away it went. And we were picking the mesh out with our fingers! I think maybe the same thing with another White we caught up in Preservation Inlet.

CRAWFORD: Let's hold onto that setnet Shark for a second, and get back to the White Pointer you saw as a kid at the Halfmoon Bay wharf. You remember seeing that animal, but you don’t remember the circumstance of how it was caught, or why? 

NILSEN: No. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember if there was the idea that if White Pointers came in to those two bays, that they would be removed? Do you remember people talking about that? Or it being a normal thing, back in the day?

NILSEN: No, I can’t recall any sightings. I can just remember this one Shark that somebody had caught, and it was hanging up. But when we were kids, we swam around that water and swam around the bays. Butterfield’s Beach, and all around Paterson Inlet, you know? 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s go to swimming for a bit. This is another important thread in the story. Where did you go to school as a kid? 

NILSEN: At Stewart Island.

CRAWFORD: Were there swimming classes? 

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: At Bathing Beach? 

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: That was something that all the kids did? They got their swimsuits, they went down to Bathing Beach ... it was part of the school year still, if you were taking swimming instructions?

NILSEN: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember any Shark Wardens or Shark Spotters?

NILSEN: No, never. 

CRAWFORD: It started at some point, but I don’t know exactly when.

NILSEN: Right. Maybe it did start after a bit, because we left Stewart Island in 1967. And '65 was the last year I was at school. 

CRAWFORD: Right. After that, you were in Bluff?

NILSEN: I was in Bluff, school at Colac Bay. But my parents still had the house in Halfmoon Bay until 1967, and then we left and went to Bluff. 

CRAWFORD: Let’s go to Colac Bay. You spent a significant amount of time there. 

NILSEN: Oh, yes. 

CRAWFORD: You also spent a lot of time at Centre Island? 

NILSEN: Centre Island, yes. Escape Reefs. 

CRAWFORD: That whole region?

NILSEN: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Did you linefish? 

NILSEN: Yes, we did. 

CRAWFORD: For what - Blue Cod?

NILSEN: Blue Cod, yeah. Groper. Really keen on catching Groper.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever do any Pāua diving? Anything like that?

NILSEN: No, I didn't do any Pāua diving. We just got Pāua off the rocks, but we never actually done any diving there.

CRAWFORD: And the fishing that you did, was old school, line-fishing?

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: How big was your boat for that line-fishing?

NILSEN: Oh, 12, 15 feet. 

CRAWFORD: In all the time that you were linefishing out of Colac Bay, in those waters - you didn't see any White Pointers?

NILSEN: No. 

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers talk about White Pointers around there?

NILSEN: No, I hadn’t heard of anything around there. 

CRAWFORD: Nobody cautioned you? 

NILSEN: No, no, no. Done a lot of swimming in Colac Bay, and that sort of thing. It was never mentioned.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s go back to your time Crayfishing the southwest corner of Fiordland? Anybody ever see any White Pointers down there? 

NILSEN: Not that I can recall. I personally haven’t. 

CRAWFORD: Fiordland? Dusky Sound? Preservation?

NILSEN: I know they’ve been caught there, but I’ve never seen them.

CRAWFORD: What did other people say, in terms of their experiences? Did they ever see them there? 

NILSEN: No, they’d only ever been caught. 

CRAWFORD: Specifically, getting tangled in nets? 

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Do you remember anybody up in Fiordland using baited hooks on drums, anything like that?

NILSEN: Not to my knowledge, no. 

CRAWFORD: Back in the day, when people caught a Shark incidentally, wrapped up in the nets or whatever - was it the type of thing where there was value associated with that incidental catch? The jaws or the teeth?

NILSEN: Once we sold a jaw, but that was ...

CRAWFORD: Minor in comparison to the catch?

NILSEN: Yes, very minor.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In 30-plus years of setnetting, roughly how many White Pointers have you incidentally caught? 

NILSEN: Personally, two. And my other skipper, I think they possibly would have caught two or three.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'other skipper' you mean another skipper, working the same vessel when you're not? 

NILSEN: Yes. The boat’s fishing, same boat and switching skippers.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, where did you catch them? 

NILSEN: The first one I got was out here ...

CRAWFORD: So, north of Ruggedy?

NILSEN: Yeah. And the other one was in Preservation Inlet. Right in. it was probably about ten metres of water.

CRAWFORD: Ten metres? So, close to shore?

NILSEN: Right in against the shore, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Any idea roughly what time of year that might have been, for the White Pointer in Preservation Inlet? 

NILSEN: Possibly January. And probably similar for the one off Ruggedy.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other experiences that maybe you heard through the grapevine? Any other type of places that people said were ‘sharky’ with White Pointers? Aggregations or seasonal things, anything like that? 

NILSEN: Not that I can recall definitely. Apart from with my Dad, and that sort of thing. I have heard the odd story, especially around the Traps, a lot of Cod fishermen. You hear the odd one saying "You know there was a big Shark come up." But nobody could positively identify any Whites or anything like that. You know you get some really big Sevengill Sharks around these areas. Like in the back here, what they call Tupari - there's a little anchorage in here. It was extremely well known for Sevengill Sharks. I’ve seen probably a dozen or more when we’re in there cleaning our Shark, and that sort of thing. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a good segue. Let’s talk about fish cleaning. But let’s start with Cod. When you were fishing with your Dad, or on your own, especially on the northeast side of Stewart Island close to home - were there times when people were cleaning fish and they would have Sharks circling around the boats? 

NILSEN: I just can’t recall. I remember Philip’s Dad losing his dog once. He might have told you - Algae the dog or something. I think they were up here in Pegasus, right up where the freezer used to be. They were up there cleaning their fish. Apparently, Algae used to jump over the boat, go ashore and do his toilet things, and then come back. He used to always do it. And apparently this night they heard him come back, and there was a hell of a noise on the side of the boat. They went to get the dog, and the dog wasn’t there. But it could have been a Sevengill, I don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever do any diving? 

NILSEN: Yes, I have. 

CRAWFORD: When did that start? 

NILSEN: Maybe from 18-20. Not professional diving. I used to do a lot of just getting feeds of Pāuas. Yeah, now and then.

CRAWFORD: Fairly frequently? 

NILSEN: Fairly frequently, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When you were diving, was it freediving? 

NILSEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Any scuba? 

NILSEN: A little bit, but not a lot. 

CRAWFORD: When you dove for those feeds, where abouts would you have been?

NILSEN: Mostly around this area, southwest area. Muttonbird Islands. And Fiordland, of course.

CRAWFORD: So, basically wherever you were living, or wherever you were fishing?

NILSEN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: That’s important because a lot of guys, commercial fishermen, all of their experiences was onboard a vessel. 

NILSEN: Oh. 

CRAWFORD: But you were in the water too. 

NILSEN: Oh, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And you were in the water, in nearshore regions where White Pointers - in a more modern context - are known to be around. 

NILSEN: Right. 

CRAWFORD: You said something about "If you knew then, what you know now ...

NILSEN: When I was younger, when I was in my 20s, diving all around Stewart Island - in the general areas where we stopped when we were Crayfishing - I would go and get a feed of Pāuas or Scallops or whatever. I guess the odds just didn’t seem to be there, it didn't bother me. But it was probably from when I heard about that attack in St. Kilda that I thought "Oh yeah." It was probably just increased a little bit. But over the years I haven’t done much diving, in the last nearly ten years maybe. I still have a wet suit, but I don’t dive. It was more the Sea Lions that put me off, more than the White Pointers. I think the odds of seeing a White Pointer were not up there, they haven’t been over the years. I’m more scared of the Sea Lions. 

CRAWFORD: Have you had interactions with Sea Lions?

NILSEN: I have. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of interactions? 

NILSEN: They’ve gone for me, in the water. 

CRAWFORD: Where? 

NILSEN: Down here in Port Pegasus. I was diving down here one day, just in a really obscure place where it was a nice bay, nice and calm. And it really went for me. I was actually in the water diving. It’s coming at you, and its teeth are going, you know? Quite scary. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, I bet. How’d you get out of that?

NILSEN: Oh, I don’t know. I reckon I flew into the dinghy. [both laugh]

NILSEN: I had a [Stemicraft??] there. I don’t know how I got into the dinghy, but I just come straight up. My Son had said "Look, he’s dropped the [rollocks??] off the side." He said "Can you go down and get it, because they've already got the Scallops." And I said "Alright." So, I went down to get it, and as I was going down - here’s this face coming at me, like this. Really going. I just straight up, and into the dinghy, you know? 

CRAWFORD: Yeah.

NILSEN: And the comment was "Shoot it!" But I didn’t. We didn’t see it again.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Getting back to fish-cleaning. Any reports of White Pointers around Dead Man’s Bay when fishermen were cleaning their fish? 

NILSEN: I don’t know, no. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, I think maybe that’s other people doing other things. 

NILSEN: Yeah. As I say, my Dad sort of concentrated on that southwest corner. He didn’t do a lot of fishing straight out of Halfmoon Bay. So, a lot of the likes of Fluff, and some of the other locals, probably had more information. Richard Squires probably has got a great knowledge of that. 

CRAWFORD:  Ok. Second last thing in this regard, when it comes to Muttonbirding. My understanding is that it’s harvesting and processing. But they're still often getting a feed of fish during the day - either linefishing or setnetting. Was that true for you too, through the years that you Muttonbirded?

NILSEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When you discarded waste from Muttonbirding, you took it down the beach or your landing spot, and you put it out there and it gets washed away by the currents and the tides? 

NILSEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you get birds coming in to feed on the discard? 

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did you get fish coming into feed on it?

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear of Sharks being attracted to that type of Muttonbird waste? 

NILSEN: I can never recall anybody telling me that they had seen any big Sharks around. We caught the odd School Shark. I personally have, when I've been off the rocks and that sort of thing. But no, never ever have I heard any of the Muttonbirders say they’ve seen White Pointers - in my experience.

CRAWFORD: Right. Do you know anything of the science research that’s been done in Foveaux Strait, around Stewart Island, on the White Pointers? Have you heard anything about that?

NILSEN: No. Very little. 

CRAWFORD: With regard to Shark-Human interactions, are you aware of any incidences in this region, where a White Pointer has had aggressive interactions with Humans?

NILSEN: No, I’m not aware of any White Pointer aggression to anybody in the general area. No. 

CRAWFORD: When you think about the rest of New Zealand, are there places where you have heard of White Pointer attacks? 

NILSEN: Well, St. Kilda was probably the first one I ever heard of. But no, I haven’t heard of any others. 

CRAWFORD: When you heard about St. Kilda, were you on the Stewart Island at the time? Was it back in those days?

NILSEN: Oh, it was quite early. But I don’t think I was on the Island. I think I was living in Bluff at that stage. It probably would have been early-70s at St. Kilda - was it? 

CRAWFORD: '67, '68. 

NILSEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did that news change anything about how you spent time on and around the water? 

NILSEN: No, it didn’t. But I spent a lot of time diving in my later years, diving for Pāuas and Scallops and whatever. It was probably in the back of my mind. But now I wouldn’t. You know, with the knowledge I know now about how many White Pointers are out there, I definitely would have second thoughts about getting in the water.

CRAWFORD: No matter the specific reason? Aggression, or even just curious?

NILSEN: From what I can gather over the years ... even Fluff says he’s thrown a newspaper over, and then they’re attracted. I’ve never ever heard of my parents saying they’ve seen that happen before.

CRAWFORD: Several different people have made that comment - that these White Pointers are intensely curious about things that are floating on the surface. 

NILSEN: I think probably Richard's had these experiences ...

CRAWFORD: Squires? 

NILSEN: Richard Squires. He’s been in those areas before the Shark dive. And Richard would know if there’d been an increase in sightings. I mean, he’s actually been there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. I’d like to get back to the following behaviour. Where would that knowledge have come from? That White Pointers would be following boats? 

NILSEN: As I said, I've just heard that the odd one is seen, big Sharks - it's just occasional. Like my Dad said, and that sort of thing. We must have been feeding them frames, you know?

CRAWFORD: Ok. Do you think that White Pointers with berley only, not food that they could eat ... do you think White Pointers would hang around a region with berley only? 

NILSEN: Well, I think Sharks are attracted to a frenzy. And I think if you've got berley - this is from my experience with catching Shark in the nets - if a Shark gets caught in the net, it’s thrashing, and it's getting caught, and there’s sort of like a frenzy. And sometimes you might get like six Shark in one little area of the net. Maybe they're thinking that there’s a frenzy going on there. Then you might get no Shark for another 100 metres. So, I think you get a frenzy of fish - other smaller fish - feeding on this mince, or whatever it is. You’re creating a bit of a frenzy. So, I can see why Sharks would be attracted.

CRAWFORD: Two things in there. Technically, it's difficult sometimes to wrap your head around that they would be feeding on the berley because it’s ...

NILSEN: Too small. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, it’s like a soup. 

NILSEN: But they’re attracted to the other fish, the smaller fish that are in a frenzy, then the bigger fish.

CRAWFORD: RIght. You also suggested there’s something about the splashing and the flapping around. It's almost as if Sharks in general - and you’re a Shark fisherman so you’ve seen other species as well - they just can’t help themselves if that’s happening. They’re in. 

NILSEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Some people argue that Sharks are not smart enough to associate berley, or even food, with a particular place, or a particular boat. Do you think that these Sharks are smart enough to do that? 

NILSEN: I'm pretty sure they are. Over many years, I've noticed certain times of the year, certain species - School Shark especially - are in certain areas. So, they must have a time frame they go to certain areas. So, then we go to the White Pointers for food? Well ...

CRAWFORD: Given that kind of pattern - different times of the year, different places for Sharks, specifically School Sharks. Do you think that the same thing would be true with the White Pointers? That they would have particular needs at different times of the season? 

NILSEN: I would imagine so. 

CRAWFORD: Do you have any idea of what those needs would be? Where they would be, and what they would be doing? 

NILSEN: Well, I guess like a lot of species, it depends on the currents and the temperatures, and all those sort of things. I just imagine ... well, I don’t imagine, I know for sure that as the temperatures go up, the Sharks move closer inshore. Well, School Sharks do anyway. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you figure they do that?

NILSEN: I think that they go in to drop their young in placid waters. They seem to. It’s a definite pattern. We seem to get the bigger females closer in to shore. So, we try not to go inshore when they’re there. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, yeah. 

NILSEN: We try to avoid the big Sharks. We always let our big females go, because some of them got 40-50 young inside. They’re not wanted, these big Sharks. We can sell them alright, but we’re better off to catch the smaller ones.

CRAWFORD: With School Shark, are there certain mating grounds, certain reproductive areas, where they go to do their mating? Maybe certain areas where they go to pup their young? 

NILSEN: I can’t actually say that they’re actually mating there, but they’re definitely congregating there. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. And that’s indirect evidence. An ecologist would say wherever you get these congregations on a seasonal basis, there are a limited number of things that they could be congregating for. Could be feeding, could be reproduction, could be socialization.

NILSEN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: More recently, people have reported a rather dramatic increase in the number of White Pointers especially out around the Titi Islands. Is that in your experience as well? Have you heard the same reports? 

NILSEN: Yes, I have heard about it. 

CRAWFORD: This stands in contrast to what you were saying before, that back in the day, the Titi Islands weren't really known as a White Pointer hotspot.

CRAWFORD: Any idea why, more recently, White Pointers would be more numerous around the Titi Islands?

NILSEN: I honestly have no idea. I was really surprised to hear that there was great numbers there. 

CRAWFORD: It’s possible that they were always there, and that we just never saw them. 

NILSEN: That’s correct. 

CRAWFORD: In the same way that the recent DOC [Department of Conservation] tagging program is showing White Pointers are in Paterson Inlet. People just don’t see them often.

NILSEN: No. I’ve never ever seen them. But even in our nets, not commercially because we never set up there commercially, but even my Dad with nets at the farm and that sort of thing. Outside some of the beaches, that sort of thing. Never ever heard of it. Nope. 

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: When was the first time that you remember hearing about or seeing a White Pointer? 

NILSEN: I guess that’d have to be my Dad years ago, on one of his old vessels. This White Pointer come up and grab hold of the rudder. They must have been cleaning their Cod or whatever, out of Port Pegasus. 

CRAWFORD: Would they have been moored or drifting?

NILSEN: Drifting, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you figure an animal like that would go at a rudder? 

NILSEN: Maybe it’s because 99.9% of the boats were all painted red back then, antifouling paint was all red at that stage. Maybe it got confused with the blood and the fish going over the side, or whatever. He said it grabbed the rudder, you could feel it going through the steering wheel because it was all chains and bars. He said he could feel it. He said "I wonder what the hell this shaking was." And here’s this bloody Shark hanging onto the rudder. He said when they beached it, or slipped it to give it a scrub the next time, here's these bloody Shark’s teeth embedded in the rudder. 

CRAWFORD: That’s not the first time I’ve heard of this kind of story. How big was his boat? 

NILSEN: The old Rakiura, would have been 40-odd feet.

CRAWFORD: So, that’s an early story your Dad told you.

NILSEN: Yeah. 

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

CRAWFORD: When was the first that you had heard about Shark cage dive operation in this region, how far back? 

NILSEN: Oh, possibly about eight years ago  

CRAWFORD: Ok. Previously you mentioned that you had also known one of the cage tour dive operators from before - Peter Scott?

NILSEN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: And how long had you known him? 

NILSEN: Probably on and off, maybe ten years before that. Prior to that I didn’t spend a lot of time with him. But one of my crew had gone and sat his fishing ticket.

CRAWFORD: Right. But Pete’s a commercial fishery guy.

NILSEN: Yeah, from Port Chalmers.

CRAWFORD: Comes down here, setting up a cage dive business model, things like that? 

NILSEN: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever been on, or seen, a cage dive operation? 

NILSEN: Never. 

CRAWFORD: What’s your understanding of what happens during those operations?

NILSEN: I just think they go out and chum the fish, they feed them, bring them around, and then throw the cage over. 

CRAWFORD: And then people go in the cage, they take their pictures, have their experience?

NILSEN: Yep. That’s basically my understanding of it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. One thing, for the purpose of the questions that will follow, is that there was a pre-permitting period, the first seven years or so. And then last year and this year, there is a two-year permit in place. They’re just at the beginning of the second year of that permit now. Under the conditions of the current permit, they are not allowed to feed. It's only a minced berley. There is a baitfish on a tow line that is allowed for leading purposes, but they’re supposed to do everything in their power to make sure the White Pointers don’t get that either. So, intentional feeding is out of the equation under the current permit. 

NILSEN: Right.

CRAWFORD: Under those conditions, where the animals are not being fed, do you think that a White Pointer encountering a cage operation ... do you think exposure to that operation would have an important, lasting effect on the White Pointers? Would they be different in some way after having been around these cage dive operations? 

NILSEN: Oh look, I’m not sure about that. Over the years since Cod fishing’s been happening at Stewart island, I guess in some ways we’ve been feeding these Sharks all along, and they’ve all been trailing around the boats. And I don’t know if there is there is any difference.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You said something important, and I’m not sure it came up in our discussion before. You said "We’ve been feeding Sharks all along." Does that mean the White Pointers eating the Codframes discarded by the fishery?

NILSEN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Whether it’s the heads, the frames, the bits and pieces. And that the White Pointers have been feeding off of that. Do you know from direct experience, or from other people, that the White Pointers have been feeding on the waste product from the fishery like that?

NILSEN: No, no. I guess that’s what's been happening. I’m just guessing that they’ve been attracted to those boats. 

Copyright © 2017 Olaf Nilsen and Steve Crawford