Mike Haines

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Mike, where and when were you born? 

HAINES: Invercargill, 1964.

CRAWFORD: When did you start spending significant amount of time on the water?

HAINES: We’re talking the early-80s. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how old? 

HAINES: Would have been a teenager, about sixteen.

CRAWFORD: Were you spending time on the water around Bluff? Or further up the coast?

HAINES: No, Bluff. It was always out of Bluff, and Colac Bay region over towards Riverton.

CRAWFORD: Did you have family you were visiting? 

HAINES: My family is from out that way.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Mostly summertime experience for you, out of school? 

HAINES: Holidays, after school. We used to have a Dive Club at school. 

CRAWFORD: Your scubadiving, from the get-go in New Zealand coastal waters, based around the Bluff region?

HAINES: That’s right, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: In general, how often would you go diving as a teen?

HAINES: We were going diving most weeks, you know? Maybe a couple of days a week.

CRAWFORD: So, fairly intensive. What part of the seasons?

HAINES: Generally, spring and summer were the best times to be going. 

CRAWFORD: When you were diving, what kind of dives would you be doing? Would they be general recreational dives? Certain types of habitat? Harvesting?

HAINES: Yeah, recreational dives. You know, getting a feed of Pāua every now and then. The odd Crayfish, sight-seeing, and even wreck dives off the shore. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever do any spearfishing?

HAINES: Yeah, absolutely. I was a keen spearfisherman for years.

CRAWFORD: So, pretty much across the board - if it was in the water you were doing it?

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, what was the split between scubadiving and freediving?

HAINES: It was probably a little more freediving than scuba. Because the best scubadiving to be had was off boats. And that wasn’t always possible back then.

CRAWFORD: Right - that was you as a late teenager. When did you start spending more time scubadiving from boats?

HAINES: Would have been about probably the late-80s. Because boats had started become more available. In the early-80s, there wasn’t a lot of boats available to take you out recreational diving. I got my own 12 metre boat around '87, '88. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of a boat was that? 

HAINES: Well they’re called 'rigid pontoon boats'. There’s a company down here called Stabicraft that makes them. They became very popular around that period.

CRAWFORD: Ok, you acquired that boat in the late-80s, and then used it as your primary dive platform for doing the same types of dives? Or did you start doing different things?

HAINES: Oh, we just started going offshore a bit more - that was the only difference. Mostly Bluff, or over towards Riverton, Colac Bay region, around here. Even over at Stewart Island - we did quite a lot of diving around the northeast side of the island. 

CRAWFORD: On the mainland, did you ever get up to the Nuggets on the southeast shore?

HAINES: Yeah, around the Nuggets. Out of Kaka Point, and round those regions. Owaka, staying up there.

CRAWFORD: Anything up towards the Otago Peninsula?

HAINES: Not so much up that way, no. 

CRAWFORD: Anything over Fiordland way?

HAINES: Did a few trips, charter trips into Fiordland with some of the charter operators from that region.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was the next significant thing that changed, in terms of your time on or under the water?

HAINES: Well, I become a Dive Instructor round about 1988. And at that point in time, I was working part-time for a Dive Store, Smith and Rainsford, in Invercargill. A lot more active in the water, because then we were training - spent a lot more time with trainees. And of course, from that the number of people that I knew in the diving circle was expanding. So that gave me a lot more opportunities. 

CRAWFORD: When you were dive training out of Invercargill, did you have favourite places for your open-water dives?

HAINES: Oh, absolutely. We went to places like Ruapuke, which was relatively close to Bluff. Obviously by vessel, but there’s lots of areas in there that we liked to use as our open water sites. We also went to some of the freshwater lakes. And Bluff Harbour, we did quite a bit off the wharfs here in Bluff over the years. Stewart Island, lots of good little dive sites around the Titi Islands there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What were you doing other than the part-time job at the Dive Shop?

HAINES: I was engineering previously, I was a fitter-turner.  

CRAWFORD: What kind of engineering was that?

HAINES: Marine engineering, working on boats, in the workshop. That sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Then what?

HAINES: Then it was around about 1990 that I went overseas. 

CRAWFORD: There’s a break from New Zealand, when you went overseas. When was that?

HAINES: That was about 1990. For about three years, I was working offshore as a diver and a mechanic for a while. Working out of Indonesia, Singapore, those places. But I was still coming home. I’d do three months away, and then I’d come home for a month. So, I was still active within the dive scene down here all through that time.

CRAWFORD: Ok. At the end of the Indonesia-Singapore work, I'm guessing you came back to this region?

HAINES: In 1989 I brought a dive business in Invercargill, and we had a larger boat built - so we were taking it out. I was doing that full-time at that point. We worked for H and J’s for a small period, then I opened up a store called Adventure Dive. We were training, we had government funding to train people down here in Bluff. So, we actually had a school down here. And we were doing that full-time through government funding for about seven or eight years. We had a larger vessel built, which enabled us to expand a little bit around further. Around Stewart Island, even into Fiordland on occasions.

CRAWFORD: What was the name of that vessel? 

HAINES: Kiri-Waipai.

CRAWFORD: If that was government funding, was that more along the lines of commercial dive training then?

HAINES: Within reason, yeah some of that. A bit of both. 

CRAWFORD: With this larger boat, you took it further afield. What kinds of places would you have gone to then, that you wouldn’t have gone to previously?

HAINES: We would go down to the South Cape - so we were going right around Stewart Island. I also had Pāua quota for about 12 years, so I was commercially free-diving that as well on a part-time basis. 

CRAWFORD: Where were you harvesting that Pāua quota? 

HAINES: Well, that was around Bluff, parts of Fiordland. And then we were working up this coast here - Timaru, as far as Oamaru.

CRAWFORD: You said you had Pāua quota - how much of your time would you be doing commercial Pāua diving during that period? 

HAINES: Probably only about 50 days a year. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. But that’s still significant. When did that last until?

HAINES: I suppose about 2008, 2009 I think, when we finished. 

CRAWFORD: Then what changed?

HAINES: Well, we had a boat operating out of Bluff. And we started operating a dive charter business in Milford Sound for tourists. So, we purchased another boat for there. Between two boats, we had part-time Skippers working with us. I just didn’t have time to be doing other things outside of the shop.

CRAWFORD: Right. Typically, when would your charter dive season start?

HAINES: October - and finished around late April.

CRAWFORD: You has a Skipper that was running your boat most of the time? Or were you there some of the time?

HAINES: I was there some of the time, yeah. 50-50.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of the recreational diving out of the Milford region, was that just really around the Sound, or would you go further afield? 

HAINES: We used to run private and dive club trips down to George Sound, which is just down here. So, we’d do that and take them away for two or three days. 

CRAWFORD: From a recreational diver's perspective, what were they looking for? What’s along that coastline that perhaps would attract them? 

HAINES: Remoteness. Certainly, a lot of divers like to catch Crayfish. And a bit of fishing, recreational fishing. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. How long did that last, that charter operation?

HAINES: About six years.

CRAWFORD: Was there anything else going on in that period of time that would have had you on the water, but for different purposes?

HAINES: Well, I’ve always done a bit of commercial diving down here. So, there was always the odd job. We’d recover a sunken recreational vessel whenever. There’s been numerous jobs that we’ve dived on out on Foveaux Strait, or even in Milford, in the fiords over the years.

CRAWFORD: And then what changed?

HAINES: Well, we sold the Milford Sound business. I think certainly age changes things.

CRAWFORD: Age always plays a role. And then you sold off the Milford Sound recreational dive charter business? Back to Invercargill and Bluff full-time?

HAINES: That's right. Focusing on the Shark cage diving.

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: To what kind of extent has Māori culture and Māori knowledge had a contribution to your understanding of the coastal ecology generally, maybe White Pointers specifically?

HAINES: Not a huge amount. I mean, being brought up in Invercargill, we were brought up as Europeans - I suppose that would be the word. But my relatives, they were fisherman from Colac Bay, this region over here. Fisherman for years. And you know, I’ve been told that this region through here, Centre Island, Escape Reefs - it was always told that it was a highway for Great Whites. 

CRAWFORD: That was from the earliest days?

HAINES: Yeah. And they knew that. 

CRAWFORD: They meaning, Māori before Europeans knew that?

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: That’s interesting. Was that from when you were a kid, you heard those kinds of things?

HAINES: Yeah, as a kid. We always talked about it. We always talked about the fact that there were Great Whites swimming around that region there.

CRAWFORD: When you first started going into the water, with your diving, were there cautions to people? 

HAINES: Oh, they made comments. 

CRAWFORD: Like what?

HAINES: They made comments like "Be careful, watch yourself" you know? "There’s big Sharks out there."

CRAWFORD: Did they say what specifically to look for? Or where to be wary in particular?

HAINES: No, not really. Just be cautious around some of these areas out here. Centre Island, Escape Reefs. We used to do a lot there, because my family are all from there, you see? I stayed with the Grandparents as you do as a Grandkid. We always dived out there. Did a lot of diving.

CRAWFORD: It was mostly just ‘be observant’ - if you see a big Shark, then what? Get out of the water?

HAINES: Just be aware of them. They’re there.

CRAWFORD: In terms of Science, did you ever have connection with other researchers who had chartered your boat, or people that you spoke with who were Scientists doing research in the area? 

HAINES: Yeah. over the years we’ve had charters for NIWA. And they’re obviously all Scientists, but not anything to do with Sharks.

CRAWFORD: No, but environmental or ecosystem researchers, in general. The point is that when you’re chartering a Scientist, it’s kind of natural that people talk - and you will pick up some of what they were doing, and why they were doing it. Something about Science, right?

HAINES: And you learn a lot from people like them. Even older Dive Club members, some of the Club members would be in their mid-70s now. When I first started diving with them, they knew a lot about where the Great Whites were. Numerous members had seen Great Whites during their recreational dives. 

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: When you were a kid, did the old-timers say anything about where the White Pointers liked to hang out? Or when they came around? Anything like that?

HAINES: All we were told was that there was a highway over this region here. And the Great Whites would swim backwards and forwards along this region here ...

CRAWFORD: Specifically, where is that highway region? 

HAINES: Between Escape Reefs, around this area here, through Centre Island and this whole particular area here. They swim a triangle. They swim across here to the back of Oreti Beach, Halfway Rocks. That’s my understanding of it. 

CRAWFORD: Was there a particular time of year that the White Pointers were known to move along that triangle?

HAINES: It was never mentioned that they were coming here over the summer period to do the things they do. But my understanding was that it was like that all the time - throughout the year. And keeping in mind, we’d seen Great Whites at Christmas Village. That was around the July, August winter period.

CRAWFORD: You talked about this circuit ... from Centre Island over to Bluff over to the Titi Islands along the North-East coast of Stewart Island, and then back up again. How do you figure that connects with the aggregations at Titi Islands? Is it happening at the same time, so that while some White Pointers are aggregating and doing their thing at the Titi Islands, others are out on the circuit?

HAINES: My thoughts are that they don’t just swim around the Titi Islands here. They are swimming further afield as well. Because we might see some Sharks for one or two days, then they move on. And we might not see them again for three weeks. 

CRAWFORD: That’s an important observation.

HAINES: So, what are they doing in between? They could be swimming off over in the circuit here. I don’t know.

CRAWFORD: Maybe do a loop, and come back?

HAINES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: It appears strongly that the White Pointers are developing some type of social structure when they are aggregating at the Titi Islands. I think your observations are consistent with that - both among the males, and between the males and the females. You think they sort that out early in the season, and then it stays stable after that?

HAINES: Yep. I mean some instances when we pull up and we’ve anchored, the first Shark in could be the largest of the group. And nothing else will move in until he’s moved out. So, you’re seeing sort of that territorial role. As far as seeing the same Sharks day in, day out at the same site - no. Because like I say, one or two days and then we find we’ve got different Sharks again. But the general consistency with getting Sharks there was always high. We have a 99 percent hit rate of getting Sharks on Edwards Island. That’s how good it is.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other kinds of experiences you had heard from old-timers or the others about aggregations? 

HAINES: Well, commercial fishermen have always seen Great Whites. I’ve often heard stories that they’ve had large Great Whites come around this place over here at Ruggedy Islands, or Ruggedies we call it. There’s been large Great Whites there, and that’s all year around they’ve seen them there. There’s obviously Great Whites over at Centre Island, and that’s all by fisherman. I’ve never actually heard of surfers having interactions with Great Whites. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of surf areas in this region are you aware of?

HAINES: Well, none of them here - except for Colac Bay region. They do a bit of surfing along this beach here. And I’ve never heard of any interaction with Great Whites there. 

CRAWFORD: In the winter, if you were trying to go out and find White Pointers, are they in lower numbers? Is it generally the same places, but lower in numbers?

HAINES: No. Well, the thing is that they’re not aggregated. 

CRAWFORD: They're dispersed?

HAINES: They’re dispersed. Yeah, definitely. 

CRAWFORD: How do you know they're dispersed? What kinds of experiences have you or others had that made you think that? 

HAINES: Well, we had a Shark around about September ... we went fishing over at Bishops. There was a Shark that come up to us - we were just fishing. And it’s a Shark that I recognize from a season at Edwards Island. Now, he was obviously some distance from that region. I’ve gone over to Edwards Island over the years during that period, September-October, and we had not been able to get a Shark in. We’ve tried numerous occasions, and there’s just nothing there at that time.

CRAWFORD: Generally in winter, they're not in dense aggregations - not in high numbers any place around here?

HAINES: Nah. They’re individuals. 

CRAWFORD: They’re dispersed.

HAINES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What do you know about the broader, overall range of this White Pointer population?

HAINES: Certainly, all the way around Stewart Island. Certainly, all the way round to Fiordland as well. And certainly, all the way round to Dunedin.

CRAWFORD: How do we know that?

HAINES: Well number one, Dunedin - I know fishermen that were involved in the fishery up that way. Actually fishing Great Whites. They used to fish them for their liver oil. Like John Kirkman. John was Crayfishing, he’s up from Owaka way. John's about 72, I think. He knows a lot of the older fisherman that have obviously passed on over the years. 

CRAWFORD: With regards to your knowledge about the connectivity between the White Pointers that are here in the southern end of the South Island, Stewart Island and up towards Dunedin and the Otago Peninsula ... what kind of information connects those White Pointers with these White Pointers?

HAINES: Well my thoughts on it, I don’t believe I’m totally wrong. I mean you’ve obviously heard of the Shark attacks that took place up in Dunedin in the late-60s. I believe that the Sharks were actually coming South. They’re not a localized population. When they were fishing for Great Whites up there, it was a certain time of year that they were fishing for them. It was a short window. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s an important observation. And the idea about residency then ... in that context, the White Pointers would have spent some time, but not a great deal of time, on the Otago Peninsula? And then worked their way down to the Foveaux Strait?

HAINES: And the same on the other side of the coast, along Fiordland. My thoughts are, I believe that the bulk of them were actually travelling down the coast on their way coming here. I know from talking to Clinton Duffy last year, no it might have been Malcolm Francis - the two females that have got their satellite tags on, they were traced coming down the West coast. One sat in Fiordland, after coming from the top of the North Queensland area. And one sat off Centre Island. They sat there for two or three months. Then all of a sudden, they turn up in March in this region around the Titi Islands. This is my thoughts, I’m not a Scientist ... but my belief was that they were sitting there waiting for the big males to turn up down here. I mean, what other reason would they sit off? It was early in the season, too early in the season for them to do it. Because we don’t see females that time of year at Edwards Island.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Based on all of this, do you think the Titi Islands in particular is an active region for White Shark courtship and mating?

HAINES: Courtship. I think something magical takes place in this particular area. Something that doesn’t take place anywhere else in New Zealand. The thing to consider is that there are a lot more Seals in other regions of New Zealand, where there are Seal pups.

CRAWFORD: Like for example?

HAINES: Kaikoura. You know there’s thousands of Seal pups along that coastline. But they don’t seem to have an issue so much with Great Whites. They certainly don’t congregate there, Great Whites. I’m sure there’s the odd one or two, but not many. And the West coast ... Fiordland. There’s lots of Seals along that coastline. And I’m sure there are Great Whites there, but I don’t believe that they’re congregating there. 

CRAWFORD: Based on everything you've heard, and everything you learned from your own experience, when it comes to the relationship between White Pointers and their food, Seals, Fish, whatever ... what do you think is the most important factor?

HAINES: At the end of the day, they’re very selective hunters. Unfortunately, yes people have been killed by them ... but I don’t believe that’s intentional.

CRAWFORD: How do we know that the White Pointers are selective hunters? 

HAINES: Well, they have very good eyesight. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. But you could have very good eyesight, and yet not be very selective. 

HAINES: But at the end of the day, there’s not many Humans being eaten by them. We don’t offer the fat that a Seal offers.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When people think about White Pointer congregations or aggregations in New Zealand coastal waters, Stewart Island is definitely one. But what other regions do people think of?

HAINES: I don’t think there is anywhere else in New Zealand. Except for the Chatham Islands is one other area. But are they congregating to the same sort of level as what they are here? What I understand of the Chathams is - yes, they have Sharks there. And they’re there all year-round. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that they’re year-round at the Chathams? 

HAINES: Well, they’ve been seen there all year-round. 

CRAWFORD: But what would be holding them there? While so many of the White Pointers in this region have such seasonal movements.

HAINES: Well, obviously the food supply is there. There’s no two ways around it. But I take it for granted like a lot of animals, that when they reproduce or give birth or whatever, that the animals that they reproduce with, they come back to their point of origin. And I gather that’s part of the reason why they hang around those areas. They go back home, and they stay there. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think the White Pointers at the Chatham Islands are a reproductively different population than those around Stewart Island? 

HAINES: Could be. Yeah, I don’t know if they’re coming from the Chathams. I don’t know what the number of Sharks that they’ve actually managed to count off the Chathams. I have no idea on that side of it. I am aware that they have reasonable numbers, but would it be as high as this? I don’t know, but I don’t think so. I could be wrong there.

CRAWFORD: To what extent do you recall seeing or hearing about these White Pointers taking up residency at particular places? The idea that a White Pointer will frequent an area within a season, be seen at a particular place over time, and maybe be seen at a particular place over years. Is that something that you've heard from the old-timers or the other people that you’ve worked with?

HAINES: I've seen them. I've seen them over the years. We've seen Sharks during the season, and we've seen the same Sharks, or some of the same Sharks, through the winter. Not necessarily around the Muttonbird Islands, but in other areas further west. We've seen those same Sharks, as those interacting with us during the season. We’re talking about the period from August, September, October, when we've gone away. I've run fishing charters for years. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think there is some component of territoriality by resident White Pointers at those places?

HAINES: Could be. Hard to say.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen anything that you would've interpreted as a White Pointer chasing off other animals out of a location?

HAINES: Only during the cage diving season.

CRAWFORD: Right. Ok. There have been some discussions drawing similarities in general between some of the key features of Paterson Inlet on Stewart Island and Otago Harbour up on the Peninsula. Specifically with regard to the White Pointers' use of those two enclosed environments. To the extent that you've heard about White Pointers in Paterson Inlet, what do you think they might be doing in there?

HAINES: De-licing. Or cleaning themselves. Places like harbours, there's a lot of freshwater tends to run into them. Sharks are quite commonly known to go into estuarine areas, and use that as a means of de-licing, cleaning parasites off, and that sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: Have you heard about or seen White Pointers in the estuaries around Foveaux Strait?

HAINES: Paterson Inlet there has been. There has been ... as far away back as probably 30 years ago, there was a White Pointer sighting in Bluff Harbour. I don't know about Riverton. If you looked at Puerua, I don't know if you know where that is, up by Kaka Point, Great Whites have been known to go up the river there. If you wanted to know more about that ... did you ever talk to John Kirkman? He lives there on the Puerua River, and he's seen them going up there before.

CRAWFORD: Very helpful, thank you. Last kind of housekeeping question regarding distribution and abundance of White Pointers ...  what's your knowledge about their interaction with Dolphins?

HAINES: I would support the theory that it's pretty negative between the two of them. Every time I've seen the two of them, the Sharks have disappeared for that short period of time, while the Dolphins are in the vicinity.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'short time' - roughly, what time period would that be?

HAINES: I think on one occasion, we had Sharks interacting with the dive cage - and all of a sudden, we saw Dolphins probably a couple hundred metres away. As they got closer, the Sharks disappeared. As the Dolphins moved on, it probably took two or three hours for the Sharks to come back.

CRAWFORD: That's an experience you had while you were berleying and the Sharks were around the cage?

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: How many times do you reckon you've seen that?

HAINES: Over the years, probably three or four occasions.

CRAWFORD: Have you seen any direct interaction between Dolphins and White Pointers?

HAINES: No.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever heard of any direct interactions?

HAINES: No.

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES (NON-CAGE DIVING)

CRAWFORD: In your early days, when you were out diving recreationally, maybe a little bit of Pāua freediving, did you encounter any White Pointers?

HAINES: Yes, I did.

CRAWFORD: Where in this region? 

HAINES: Well, we’ll start here at Escape Reefs. I had two Great Whites approach me, on two separate years - about the same day over the Christmas holidays. 

CRAWFORD: This was when you were a teenager?

HAINES: Yeah. Maybe my early 20s.

CRAWFORD: Freediving or scubadiving?

HAINES: Scuba. 

CRAWFORD: What were you doing at the time?

HAINES: Getting Crayfish. There were two of us diving, and I had a Great White - about a 4 metre Shark - come up to me. 

CRAWFORD: How did you become aware there was a White Pointer around?

HAINES: It started swimming towards us. I could see it from a distance - we had about 18 metres of visibility. I was basically beside a big rock. I saw it come swimming towards me. He was probably about closer to what you are to me [1 metre]

CRAWFORD: Head on, or to the side?

HAINES: Head on, coming towards me. Wasn’t mouthing or anything. Was just cruising, being inquisitive. All I did at that point in time was that I had a catch bag of Crayfish, I held that out. And I also took my regulator out, and gave him a squirt [of bubbles].  

CRAWFORD: Well, that’s an exceptional description right off the bat. [Discussion about project classification levels for Human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]. That wasn't an Observation, nor was it a Swim-By - this animal was coming to you specifically?

HAINES: Yeah. It was inquisitive. 

CRAWFORD: Level 3 Interest. Let's just clarify. Is it possible the animal was swimming along, and you simply happened to be along its course?

HAINES: No. Because it was further out in the gravel. We were against the side of the reef, and it started coming towards us.

CRAWFORD: So, it changed direction?

HAINES: Yeah. And my mate, he was in a bit of a cavern thing, and all you could see was his fins sticking out. He was obviously trying to catch Crayfish. The Shark went over, swam to me, then swam over to him. Between my mate and myself, we were probably maybe 8 or 9 metres apart. And the Shark swam over to him, and he went right over his dive fins - he opened his mouth, but he never touched the fins. He closed his mouth again, and then when my mate exhaled - he just did a U-turn and two flicks, and he was gone. My mate never saw him. 

CRAWFORD: That’s remarkable for a few different reasons. First, the animal changed in response to your presence - which puts it in that category of Level 3. It comes up to you, and it comes in proximity - which is another big factor in this. Because you can get Level 3s where they change direction, and then they circle around at a distance ... but they don’t come within that kind of close proximity zone. This animal come right in to you. You interacted with the animal first by shoving the bag and the regulator out. Did the animal interact with the bag, with the Crayfish?

HAINES: No, no. He just carried on towards my mate.

CRAWFORD: Mouth was closed. Goes directly over to your mate whose fins are still sticking out? Or was by that point?

HAINES: No, no, no. Fins are still sticking out. He’s just about vertical in this bit of a cavern, trying to get these Crayfish. 

CRAWFORD: So, really the White Pointer can’t see much of him. It only sees the fins?

HAINES: Sees the fins, and the he opens his mouth ...

CRAWFORD: Male, female?

HAINES: Oh, look - I can’t remember. Not going back that far, whether it was a male or a female. 

CRAWFORD: And you would have been ... I mean it’s the same type of thing as a robbery at a dairy - it happens so quickly, and you’re just so focused. You’re almost in shock because of what’s happening. 

HAINES: It’s adrenaline pumping. 

CRAWFORD: Sure it is. But the mouthing ... the animal opened up its mouth, put its mouth around the fins, but didn’t close on them? 

HAINES: Not quite, no. As he’s swum up to the fins, he’s opened his mouth. And basically at that stage, it was right up to the fins. Never put the fins in his mouth. And then the diver exhaled, and then he just veered away. And away he goes.

CRAWFORD: Did you get the impression that maybe the Shark had been surprised by your mate's bubbles?

HAINES: Probably, yeah.

CRAWFORD: You said something else that some other people have said as well ... when the animal was approaching you, it was casual?

HAINES: Just causal. It was just off the bottom, you know?

CRAWFORD: But then, after going over to your mate, and maybe being a little surprised - just a couple of flicks of the tail ...

HAINES: And he was gone. The last we seen him that day. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Exceptional for a first encounter. You were how old?

HAINES: Probably about 22 then.

CRAWFORD: Had your mate seen any of this at all?

HAINES: Nah, he never saw it. 

CRAWFORD: Did you tap on him ...

HAINES: I tapped on him, and did all these silly hand signals. And he's like "What the hell are you talking about?"

CRAWFORD: No idea. So, up to the surface you go?

HAINES: Basically, up to the surface. It was the end of the dive. Probably a little bit shaken at that stage, yeah. Up to the boat. A Father and Cousin were in the boat and they were "What the hell are you going on about?"

CRAWFORD: Ok. You’ve got your first encounter with a White Pointer. From a recreational perspective, how many additional times have you been diving when you've seen White Pointers?

HAINES: Two times.

CRAWFORD: When was the second? 

HAINES: Just about the same spot 12 months later, between Christmas and New Year.

CRAWFORD: Escape Reefs. Describe that encounter for me, please.

HAINES: Visibility wasn’t as good. We probably only had 6, 7 metres of visibility. Doing the same thing, we were diving for Crayfish. A Great White, probably a similar size, just come up to us again. This time we didn’t see him coming from a distance. He come right up to us - just appeared out nowhere! And then he just turned off, and that was the last we saw of him. 

CRAWFORD: Would you put this one at a Level 3 'Interest' category as well?

HAINES: Yeah. They showed an interest because, why? They’re inquisitive.

CRAWFORD: But they were both in proximity. They were close. 

HAINES: Yeah, they were right there.

CRAWFORD: Anything else unusual or different with this second encounter?

HAINES: Not really, no. Same sort of encounter.

CRAWFORD: Your third instance, while recreational diving. When and where? 

HAINES: Christmas Village on Stewart Island. We were diving along there, getting Oysters. We had a Great White that swum up to us. He swum a couple of times around in a general circle. And that was the last I seen of him. 

CRAWFORD: Once again, that circling behaviour definitely puts it in Level 3. More attention, but no edge or attitude exhibited by that animal?

HAINES: No.

CRAWFORD: Anything else that the old-timers would have said about how to react, or how to behave around these White Pointers? Is it a matter of getting your back to a wall? Or just getting out of the water when you see them?

HAINES: All I’ve learned as a diver was - if you see them, just stay calm, stay on the bottom, and they’ll eventually move on. 

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: Prior to your cage dive operations, did you hear of other people having experiences with White Pointers in the Foveaux Strait, Stewart Island region? 

HAINES: I’d heard of a Dive Club member ... this would have been probably going back 30 years, being harassed by a Great White off Port William. Diving for Oysters, again.

CRAWFORD: What do you remember hearing about that incident?

HAINES: He said the Shark come up to them, and had a bit of a nosey, and then moved on again. 

CRAWFORD: Any type of interaction with the gear or anything else?

HAINES: Not that I know of, no. He never mentioned anything.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you hear of any other types of White Pointer interactions with divers? Or anyone else?

HAINES: I’ve heard of Pāua divers. I think it was Ross Newton, over at Seal Rocks off Ruapuke Island. On the surface, and the Shark came up alongside and nudged him. And that’s going back probably ... what are we talking about ... back to the late-80s, early-90s. 

CRAWFORD: Any other other diver interactions that you recall?

HAINES: Not previous to then, no.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Since the dive tour operations, what types of interactions - not associated with cage diving - have you heard of? Starting ... I think Peter said he started eight years ago ...

HAINES: Yeah, eight years ago - and I started about a year later. Since then, just divers going for Oysters, and general Crayfish diving. I know Joe, a friend of mine, he was harassed by a Shark at Kanetetoe - off the southeastern corner of the Titi Islands. He was diving for Crayfish, and he had a Great White come up to him. He was only in about 10 metres. Joe swam to the surface, but the Shark kept following him, then swum round him a couple of times near the surface there. And then that was the last he saw of him. But there again, if you would call it a Level 3, I’m not 100 percent sure. 

CRAWFORD: I think 'harassment' would be more of a Level 4 Attitude than a Level 3 Interest. Any recollection of other encounters that would be clearly Level 4? Bumping? Biting?

HAINES: Not really, no. 

CRAWFORD: What about White Pointers east of Bluff?

HAINES: East of Bluff, over towards Curio Bay - they do a bit of surfing along there. There was a guy attacked early last year, along that coastline. But it was proven that it was a juvenile White.

CRAWFORD: Proven by teeth size?

HAINES: Yeah. Size of the bite on the board.

CRAWFORD: What did you hear about that attack?

HAINES: Late in the evening. One single bite. I think he got bitten on the leg. It’s been proven that the bite was done by a Great White. And it wasn’t a very big Great White. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other attacks, locations that you have either heard of from the old-timers or have heard of from your contemporaries?

HAINES: Well the only other attack we’ve had, and I believe it was from a Mako ... that was around the Titi Islands about eight, nine years ago. You’ve probably heard of that one yourself.

CRAWFORD: Well, I’ve heard allusions to it. I’ve heard different bits and pieces. What did you hear?

HAINES: Well, I heard the guy got bitten on the elbow or shoulder, while he was diving - I think he was a recreational guy. There were noises made initially that it was a Mako, and then it came out saying it was a Great White. I don’t believe it was a Great White, because the only Great Whites that we ever see in this region are mature Great Whites. We don’t get juvenile Great Whites here. And a Great White to leave a little bite on someone's arm? Nah. No, there’s not a chance.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What do you know about Shark attack deterrents that have been tested in New Zealand coastal waters?

HAINES: Not a lot. I don't think they work that well. Shark deterrents in the form of nets?

CRAWFORD: No, no. Personal Shark deterrents. Either electromagnetic or some type of attachment that potentially could go on a diver or on a surfboard. A device that would deter Sharks from approaching, attacking.

HAINES: Well, put it this way - I don't think they worked out well with Great Whites. My understanding was that there was the person in Australia wearing one when he was attacked. I don't think that I would have the confidence to wear one. I would certainly not bother. If you've got to rely on one of those things, then you're probably better off not being in the water.

CRAWFORD: What do you know, if anything, about testing that agencies or parties have done in New Zealand coastal waters with these Shark deterrent devices?

HAINES: Yeah, right. Well you're obviously aware, they did that here a couple of years ago. Quite honest, they should take them back wherever they made them, and test them there.

CRAWFORD: Did you know that DOC had originally issued a permit for this?

HAINES: I'm aware of that, yes.

CRAWFORD: And then they later withdrew that permit?

HAINES: Well, I don't know why they withdrew it, because it was pointless. The activity had already been undertaken.

6A. OBSERVATIONS FROM cage tour dive operations

Exploratory Phase

CRAWFORD: You mentioned something about a company that came in and wanted to charter you and your boat to take them out and search of White Pointers for footage. Who was it? What did they want? 

HAINES: It was a company called Yes-No Productions. They approached me around 2007, when they were doing a bit of a fact-finding mission at Stewart Island. They make 3D documentary productions for IMAX. They came up, approached me and said "Hey, how about chartering you for 30-odd days? We want to film Sharks."

CRAWFORD: How did they even know that Stewart Island was the place to be?

HAINES: Well the Department of Conservation was starting to survey the Great Whites down there, because they’d just become protected. Once they became protected, DOC started getting some funding to do some research on them. 

CRAWFORD: So, there hadn’t been - to your knowledge - any DOC research on the Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait White Pointers until they were protected?

HAINES: That's right.

CRAWFORD: Did you know the DOC Scientists that were working down there? 

HAINES: Not really, no. I knew some DOC Scientists, but not the particular ones involved. 

CRAWFORD: I guess that somehow this production company, they had communicated with DOC or they had some information ...

HAINES: Well, they heard feedback of what was taking place down here. They had already filmed in South Africa, South Australia, Guadalupe. So, they were looking for somewhere different and unique. 

CRAWFORD: And for whatever reason, they figured Stewart Island was a good choice. They contacted you, you're a charter guy, and you set it up with them. When they explained to you what their expectations were, what their hopes were, what did they say to you?

HAINES: They wanted us to take them to the best sites possible. Of course, they needed good visibility. They needed reasonable sort of conditions, as far as surf conditions go. And look - we all knew there were Great Whites there. They had been seen over the years.

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to those details soon. What type of filming were they doing? Was it out of a cage, or did they have remote cameras, or what? 

HAINES: They had a dive cage built specifically for the task. It was a fairly large cage. They did a lot of filming above water, and obviously out of their cage.

CRAWFORD: That’s interesting. Was that the first-ever Shark cage in the region?

HAINES: No. Peter had one built, and I’m pretty certain he was out there with it for probably close on a year previously. I can remember articles in the newspaper about him going out there and playing with the Sharks.

CRAWFOD: Ok. That was your first experience, spending a fairly considerable amount of time specifically focused on White Pointers. Then what happened?

HAINES: Well, with the way the weather was in April-May, they wanted to extend the days they’d initially wanted to charter the vessel for. We were seeing Great Whites day after day after day. And that was a surprise to me. I didn’t expect that. I mean we’d seen Sharks in Foveaux Strait numerous occasions while we’d been diving. But you know, a lot of that is a bit of luck ... or whether you’d call it lucky or unlucky. But at the end of the day - yes, we’d seen Sharks every day. And we were just thinking on that, working on that. We made a decision. We had a cage of our own built, and I thought "You know, we could actually turn this into a commercial business." We started charters when we finished with the film crew. We actually did two months straight out, running trips.

CRAWFORD: What vessel were you using on your first year? 

HAINES: We had a vessel called the Candice Britt - it was a 22 metre cat. We used that for about five years. 

CRAWFORD: And then you got the Southern Isle?

HAINES: No. Then we started going back to the Kiri-Waipai, because I’d owned her since 2000. So, we had the two vessels. The advantage with the Kiri-Waipai, it was a smaller vessel to handle the smaller numbers, and it was more efficient.

CRAWFORD: What was your first full season, full-time?

HAINES: The following season, 2008. If I’ve got the years right. I’m pretty certain that’s right. 

CRAWFORD: So, prior to DOC permitting, when there were no constraints on where you could go, where did you operate?

HAINES: Primarily to Edwards Island. Failing Edwards Island, if the weather didn’t permit us to be there, we would go to Jacky Lee Island, about a half a kilometre from Edwards Island. 

CRAWFORD: Why did you focus on the Northern Titi Islands - as opposed to anyplace else in Foveaux Strait, or around the Stewart Island? 

HAINES: Primary reason was shelter. 

CRAWFORD: Wind, for the most part?

HAINES: That’s it. Because our predominant winds are westerlies, or sou'west. Edwards Island offers the shelter for us. Primarily, that’s the reason why we operate there.

CRAWFORD: You had selected Edwards Island for the most part prior to the permitting, and then when the permit came in last year, DOC put in the constraint that you were only permitted to operate near Edwards Island. Ok. Were there any other permit changes to your operation with regard to how you did things? 

HAINES: We used to use a little Seal silhouette as part of our operation. A Seal silhouette that was about this big. A bit of floating carpet cutout, it looked like a baby Seal and it worked wonders. It was brilliant, you know, for us. It gave us an advantage that we didn’t actually use bait that often. But anyway, DOC prohibited us from using the Seal silhouette. They said "No artificial baits."

CRAWFORD: Was it something that you threw? Or something that you towed?

HAINES: No, no. We just let it go out with a bit of string. We’d just hang it off the back of the boat - that was all we were doing. 

CRAWFORD: That simple?

HAINES: That simple, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Perhaps with berley, or just the silhouette?

HAINES: The only time we used berley was to initially to get the Sharks to the vessel. 

CRAWFORD: Well. That’s the first I’ve heard about anybody that was using something as simple and effective as a piece of carpet cut out into a Seal shape. And then when the DOC permit came in, it said "No artificial bait of any kind" - including that cutout. 

HAINES: They said the reasoning behind their decision was that the Sharks would choke on it - much to my dismay. I’m aware from the experts that I’ve spoken to over the years, that if a Shark ingests something that it can’t digest, it will regurgitate it. And I’ve seen that happen before. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: In the DOC permit regulations, it doesn’t give any explanation of why? 

HAINES: It does. That's their explanation for preventing for us to use artificial baits.

CRAWFORD: And that’s in the permit itself?

HAINES: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Mind-boggling.

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Right. Before the permit constraints on location, specifically Edwards Island - where would have been your next best places? What would have been the next closest, in terms of abundance of Sharks?

HAINES: We went to Jacky Lee - we always got Sharks there. But we didn’t want to go too far away. And another thing that we didn’t really want to do was spread our cage operation all over the place. 

CRAWFORD: Why not?

HAINES: Well, I don’t know what Peter’s thoughts are on this, but I still keep in mind the fact that there are other water users. 

CRAWFORD: You wanted to localize the operations?

HAINES: Yes. So that people would know where we operate from. The only other area that I’ve operated outside of the Titi Islands was over here at Seal Rocks. We’ve baited there across the back of Ruapuke Island, but we had no success there.

Cage Tour Dive Operations

CRAWFORD: Under the DOC permit, your Shark cage dive operations are now specifically constrained to Edwards Island. Is there an explanation about why only Edwards Island in the permit?

HAINES: No, there wasn’t actually. I think the idea of course was to try and keep us to one localised area. 

CRAWFORD: Why did DOC pick Edwards Island?

HAINES: I think it was because we had predominantly been operating there for a number of years. It was part of that reasoning. Talking to Clinton on occasions, he said that he believed that Edwards Island was the centre of the earth for the Great Whites. But then again, I’ve always got Great Whites from some of the other islands.

CRAWFORD: Are you aware of any kinds of Shark ‘boxes’ - viewing platforms that people go into; they are floating at the surface, but they actually go in and they're not immersed in the ocean, they're in a floating box.

HAINES: Certainly not in New Zealand. Perhaps something similar to that in South Australia. Where they climb into, basically, an aquarium.

CRAWFORD: What do you know about those operations - in terms of their effectiveness, or the customer experience, or whatever?

HAINES: I would imagine the customer experience is a little more - what would you call it - frightening, as compared to a Shark cage. But then again, the Sharks would get a fuller view of what a person looks like. 

CRAWFORD: When you say ‘frightening’ - what do you mean?

HAINES: That at the end of the day, it's only a bit of lexan [plexiglass], I think they use, between you and a Shark.

CRAWFORD: Has DOC ever had an explicit conversation with you about the possibility of your operation working together with an independent research program? 

HAINES: Nope.

CRAWFORD: In terms of the data collection that you were required to do under the terms of the DOC permit, was that just a straight filing of data? There was no discussion of research projects?

HAINES: No, not at all.

CRAWFORD: Peter [Scott] said that at the last meeting, or one of the last meetings, you and he had with DOC - the issue about alternate locations came up. In terms of other possible locations that you could operate Shark cage tour dive operations, and still have some degree of protection from the prevailing winds. What are the kinds of places in the general region that might be appropriate for something like that?

HAINES: I'll be quite honest – none. I've tried in numerous areas. Some places you could get Sharks, but there's no shelter. It's all about having the right ingredients. That's what it's about at the end of the day, if we look at where we operate, you've got the shelter, you've got the Sharks ... most occasions we have the Sharks. We have the current flow or tidal flow, and the animals are going there to reproduce - which means that you got the males congregating at that vicinity.

White Pointer Seasonal Aggregation

CRAWFORD: Do you see any types of seasonal pattern in terms of White Pointer abundance? Do you see any peaks at certain times of the year, in terms of numbers of animals?

HAINES: Absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: Describe that first then, please.

HAINES: Well, generally we start seeing the Sharks coming in there around about November, December. Probably a little bit earlier, to be honest. We’ve been out there, and we’ve seen what we consider some locals. So, that means we’re actually seeing the Sharks all year round. And then of course around about November, December, when we start, we’re starting to see other Sharks coming in.

CRAWFORD: And by 'other Sharks' - are we talking now about you recognizing some individual White Pointers, and then you start seeing some White Pointers that you don’t recognize?

HAINES: That’s part of it yeah. Absolutely. I know that there are Sharks out here all year-round. But the problem that I find is that if I go out there in August, September, I may only have a 50 percent chance of getting a Shark in. Because of the lower numbers.

CRAWFORD: Right. Then about now, November-December, and the animals that were dispersed are now aggregating - coming into closer proximity to each other? 

HAINES: Yeah. They’re starting to move into this general area around the Titi Islands. 

CRAWFORD: But do you think that White Pointers from outside the region are moving in as well?

HAINES: Yes, they’re starting to arrive.

CRAWFORD: And why do you think that? 

HAINES: Because some of these animals, we see them year after year. Coming directly back to this region. Some of them are moving in from the Tropics. How do we know that? We’ve had Sharks come in with Remoras on them, for example. And Pilot Fish. I’ve got photos at home of Sharks with Remoras on them. And of course, to have a Remora, you’ve come direct from the Tropics. You don’t pick them up in the South Island. Pilot Fish, they’re not common in the South Island either. So, some of these Sharks come from either the top of the North Island or direct from the Tropics.

CRAWFORD: If I’m hearing you right, you would say that there are both things happening? The animals that were here anyways are aggregating. Plus, new animals from further afield are coming in. Both of those things are happening at the same time?

HAINES: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: How does the general aggregation change over the course of the summer?

HAINES: It keeps increasing around to about March - that’s when we sort of hit our peak. March, April at the latest. And early March is when we’re starting to get the females coming in. We don’t see any females at all until around that period.

CRAWFORD: Ok. To the extent that you can recognize individual White Pointers, you see some individuals once only. You see some individuals repeatedly for a period of time. And if I recall correctly, you see some individuals on and off throughout the entire season. Do you think for a particular region or a particular island these White Pointers are resident to any degree? Or are they constantly moving around?

HAINES: No, I think constantly moving, Sometimes we’ll get the same Sharks for maybe two, three days at the most. And then the next time we’re out, we don’t see them. And we may not see them for a number of weeks. So, I do believe that they do keep moving. In most occasions you find one particular Shark that you recognize quite well. And the ones that he’s with are the same ones that you had three weeks ago. Together, you know, as a group. So that’s why we’re getting that loose pack scenario. 

CRAWFORD: The ‘loose pack scenario.’ How would you describe that to somebody who hadn’t heard that phrase before?

HAINES: Well, when they did a documentary on the Chathams, they filmed the Sharks, and they knew that they were hunting like wolves as a pack. I believe there’s certainly the same scenario happening here. I know on occasions when we’ve had the Sharks ... say you’ve had them quite a bit, and I don’t mean day after day. You’re seeing quite a bit of those three or four Sharks. That they actually get - I wouldn’t say 'intelligent' ... but they hunt or chase the bait in a certain fashion. Like, one will chase it on the surface, straight at you. One will come from the side. One will come up vertically. And they’ll all be doing it simultaneously. It’s almost as if it’s a pattern that they’ve been training with.

CRAWFORD: When you start using words like ‘pack’, does it mean that there’s a degree of intelligence, in terms of social behaviour among the White Pointers?

HAINES: Absolutely.

CRAWFORD: There’s communication among them. Pack behaviour is not simple. 

HAINES: I think they’re certainly much more intelligent than what people give them credit for. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. Are the males' behaviours prior to female arrival different from later on, when it’s both males and females?

HAINES: Well, one thing that I do when I look at the Sharks and explain to people is, they’re very much like a pack of Dogs. You get a pack of Dogs, and then there’s a female in the background, and she starts to come onto heat. What do the Dogs do? They go silly. They do things out of their normal. They get aggressive. 

CRAWFORD: Let’s consider what 'normal' is, before the females even show up. What kind of typical male behaviour have you seen, and then how would that change later in the season?

HAINES: Well I don’t know if Peter told you, but last season we had a lot of breaches. Not on Seals. Just breaches out of nothing. And that was leading up to that late January, February period. And it’s only one or two Sharks that are doing it. We know that. There’s one particular Shark last season that was getting quite aggressive - it was basically taking our bait all the time. So, we know that. Very few Sharks actually do that. Most of the Sharks that we see are just quite relaxed and swim around, do the thing around the cage. They're just inquisitive. But one or two Sharks that have been quite aggressive last season. Of course, that’s leading more up towards the females coming along. And of course, the breaches. Why are they breaching on a piece of weed or for no particular reason? And we see a lot of that, just before the females were turning up.

CRAWFORD: Is this the type of thing where you see it in proximity to your boat? Or you see it off in the distance? 

HAINES: We’ve seen it both. We had one last season, breached about two or three metres from the boat. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think there Is there a specific trigger for that kind of breaching behaviour? 

HAINES: Just out of the blue.

CRAWFORD: Is there something at the surface of the water ...

HAINES: Nothing, nothing. There’s no Seals. It’s just breaching. And we’re talking about a 4-metre Shark that we’d had since mid-way through the season. I think they're a bit like Dogs - they’re showing off in front of the other guys "Hey, we can do this. We’re the boss." I don’t know, but it leads up to the females. And that’s part of the catch. 

CRAWFORD: Do you ever get the feeling that the animals that were breaching, they were the larger males?

HAINES: Not necessarily the largest of animals. Some of them big males are quite lazy. And what I mean by lazy, you know when they’re swimming along the cage, with a bit of bait in the water ... and you watch them come in slowly towards the bait. They take forever to get towards the bait. They don’t swim fast. With their mouth open. So, you pull the bait away, and they just keep swimming with their mouth open. Very slow, very relaxed. No urgency in them. And none of them I’ve seen breach, it’s all about that mid-size range. Before the females turn up, we’ve actually had over the last two or three years, particular males that breach the water surface constantly. And they might do it on a daily basis. And I can assure you, that it’s either one or two of the same Whites that are doing it.

CRAWFORD: Not hunting events? Breaching for breaching's sake - or for some other non-hunting sake?

HAINES: Just for breaching's sake. And I don’t know why. Peter and I, we’ve both seen last season, early last season where we had one particular breach - and that one was with a Seal. It got the Seal. And that’s quite rare, to see that. Especially during the day. But the other thing is that we’ve seen, and before Peter started, we were having a Shark - we know it was the same Shark because we’ve seen it before - it breached numerous occasions. That was Brute. He’s about a 4-metre male. And he was breaching constantly. 

CRAWFORD: That's not the male Peter calls Arthur? The little guy, well medium-size now, who's just go, go, go, go, go - all the time? 

HAINES: This particular one, he had a gouge on his fin. And I’m pretty sure Carwin called him Turbo. Because he was fast. And you do get Sharks like that, that are extremely full of energy. And it’s not a lot - it’s only the odd one or two. But the thing is, we do get them, and they’re a pain in the butt on occasions. 

CRAWFORD: And this breaching - it doesn't happen when the females are around?

HAINES: Not so much. No, actually it calms down quite a bit when the females are there. What I’ve seen is that the female will be there, but the other guys will just be hanging around on the outskirts of her. And they’re actually relatively settled. 

CRAWFORD: Any other examples of the kinds of behaviour that you might see from the males that would be a little bit different - prior to the females being around? 

HAINES: Aggressive around the boat. Especially those particular one or two Sharks.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'aggressive' - what kind of behaviours are you thinking of? 

HAINES: Just swimming flat out for the bait. You know, that’s the reason we lose it. And most days, we don’t lose it at all. Hence, that’s one of the issues we have with the one bait limit under the permit. This particular one Shark could come in, just attack it, and then bang - it’s gone!

CRAWFORD: Are these horizontal hits, or are they coming up vertically? 

HAINES: From all directions. There’s no fixed pattern. And they learn.

CRAWFORD: But when the female White Pointers show up, the males become less attentive to the bait? But they’ll still kind of follow? 

HAINES: Yeah, sure.

CRAWFORD: But not with the same intensity?

HAINES: Nah, not with the same intensity. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that is? 

HAINES: I don’t know. I gather either the females are acting in some way that's soothing for them. No different from Humans, I suppose, at the end of the day. 

CRAWFORD: Interesting. During the off-season, if you were around Stewart Island or around some of the other Islands - where you could still find White Pointers, would you see any type of social interaction amongst the individuals?

HAINES: Nah. I’ve never seen it here.

CRAWFORD: When you do start to see social interaction, what kinds of things do you see? How do you know that the animals are interacting amongst each other? 

HAINES: Well, at the moment because it’s still early, these days we’ve had one come in for a while then leave, and the next one comes in. So there again, the other one will move in once that first one has disappeared. Now given another couple of weeks, what we start seeing is two and three Sharks together. One will come in, and then five minutes later, the other one will be swimming around, and another five minutes later another one will be swimming round. We could have two of them swimming constantly close by each other around the cage. 

CRAWFORD: What about any other type of body arching or fin stretching?

HAINES: You see a wee bit of that. Not arching. I’ve never actually seen that, not that I can think of, amongst Great Whites.

CRAWFORD: But you know what I’m talking about in terms of posture?

HAINES: I’ve seen fins pointing down. I’ve seen that. 

CRAWFORD: Under what circumstances?

HAINES: Yeah, no doubt if the other Sharks are getting too close. 

CRAWFORD: You wouldn’t see that from an animal by itself?

HAINES: I have done. Yes, I’ve seen them. Especially from a Shark we’ve never seen before. And no doubt a Shark that’s never seen a cage before. Like I’ve mentioned, we had one there that was about a 5-metre male. Had a Remora on him. First time he’d seen us, he attacked the cage. And that was one fine example. And he wasn’t with any other Sharks at that stage. He just turned up. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other type of behaviours - with regards to mouthing, jaw dropping or anything like that? Some people have talked about a jaw chatter or rattling kind of thing.

HAINES: I’ve had that from one particular Shark we call Ra. This is going back, I’m trying to think when we first come across Ra. He was about a three and a half metre Shark. Maybe a fraction smaller. He stuck his head in the old big cage we had. This is going back probably about six years. You may have heard the story.

CRAWFORD: Tell me, please.

HAINES: Alright. Well, he stuck his head in the cage. And of course, obviously they can’t go backwards. So, he spun and spun and spun. The cage was a steel cage, and it was painted black with two pot mix. And of course, when he spun all the time - he took all the paint off that particular area of the window. And he gets round now, with a black ring around him. Just behind his gill plates. And we recognize him quite well. What’s unique about Ra, is that we see him every year. One particular year we went out there in August, September - and he was still out here. He come up to the back of the boat, and physically lifted his head out about this high, and did the snapping bit. Now he’s done that numerous occasions with us. 

CRAWFORD: That’s snapping, above the surface of the water?

HAINES: Yeah, above the surface. 

CRAWFORD: Any other Sharks around at the time?

HAINES: No. This is about August, September. 

CRAWFORD: That’s the end of the season for you?

HAINES: Well, we’re long finished. We were out there ... some things I’ve done over the years is gone out to see who’s out there. This particular year was a good off-season, a good period of weather. We went out there without the cage, and did some baiting, and had a bit of a fish. Because why? We were allowed to in those days. And that was Ra who did that. Another occasion, he actually come up to the back of the boat, and it wasn’t this boat. This is the first year with this one. He actually came up about this high on the back of the platform of the boat.

CRAWFORD: About a metre?

HAINES: Yeah. On the back of the platform.

CRAWFORD: And put his head on the platform?

HAINES: And I don’t know why. I have no idea why he did these things. He’s never done that again since, But of course, the issue is we had the cage on most of the time, in most locations, when we go out. He has come up to us, and stuck his head out of the water, and done his snapping thing again. Jaws agape.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Even though we actually opened up a kind of discussion on that kind of snapping - I was thinking of something else in terms of Shark to Shark. Have you seen any of those kinds of social interactions?

HAINES: I’ve seen two Sharks crash into each other. And what a horrendous mess that makes. Water everywhere, and they just tried to get away from each other. I mean the Sharks don’t like to be too close together. You know when they get really friendly around that March, April period, you know within a few metres of each other they’re comfortable, but any closer? Nah. They don’t like it.

CRAWFORD: When you see the White Pointers, especially later in the season when the big males are there, did you ever notice that there was some type of smell in the air associated with them?

HAINES: No.

CRAWFORD: There has been a report from at least one source - somebody who has experienced on repeated occasions, bigger Sharks presumably males, that there was a distinct ammonium smell. In a couple of instances, he actually smelled the ammonium first, and then saw a big male.

HAINES: I have heard that from some of the older fishermen. Years ago, I heard it. Maybe 20, 25 years ago. A couple of fishermen commented to me that you could smell a big White. But I don't think I've ever smelled anything. We're close to the berley bait, and the Tuna head’s odour. 

White Pointer Feeding

CRAWFORD: Alright, let's switch to feeding. To what extent are the White Pointers feeding when they’re around Stewart Island, and especially Titi Islands? 

HAINES: Well like I said, I’ve only seen one predation - with Peter last year. We both saw it. It was during the day and it’s something that doesn’t take place very often during the day. I’ve seen numerous occasions where we’ve had Sharks around the cage, Seals in the water. We’ve had Seals swimming around the cage. While a Shark does a loop around the cage, there will be a Seal doing a loop behind them, and then there will be a Shark behind the Seal. Just constantly doing a loop. 

CRAWFORD: Seals are just too agile, too fast?

HAINES: Yeah, the Seal was quite comfortable.

CRAWFORD: As long as the Seal knows where the Shark is ...

HAINES: That’s right.

CRAWFORD: Do you have any knowledge, or any reason to believe, that the number of Shark attacks on the Seals is higher at night?

HAINES: Obviously higher yeah. 

CRAWFORD: 'Obviously' for what reason? 

HAINES: Well, low light. Definitely an advantage. 

CRAWFORD: You would think so. but have you even seen ...

HAINES: I've seen it once. We were off Bunker Islands, which are just over here. We’ve got a place on there. 

CRAWFORD: What do you mean a place?

HAINES: A Muttonbird house or hut, I was anchored up there. It would have been the last of daylight. It was you know, probably within 10, 15 minutes of going pitch black. And out comes ... there was a bunch of Seal pups. And I mean a whole bunch of them - 30 or 40 of the little guys swimming outside. And right through the middle comes a Great White.

CRAWFORD: Approximately what time of night?

HAINES: Well, at the time of year it’s around about April, I suppose it must have been - probably round about close to 7ish. Because I think it gets dark around that time in April, after daylight savings has finished. 

CRAWFORD: That was one of the few instances where you were out there at dusk, or getting into it?

HAINES: It had nothing to do with Shark cage diving - why we were there.

CRAWFORD: You were there for other reasons. This White Pointer, it was close in to shore? 

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the White Pointers are after a certain kind of shoreline or bathymetry? Or that they’re avoiding other kinds? Or are they pretty much wherever?

HAINES: Well, we’ve seen them breach in all sorts - rocky, sandy and shallow.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of seabirds that are attracted, either to the cage dive operation, or any other situation where you have fish offal presented, like fish cleaning, that type of thing ... When people talk about White Pointers taking a Mollymawk or something from the surface, sometimes they talk about the animal coming up, grabbing the Bird, submerging a bit, and then spitting it out. What do you think is going through that White Pointer's brain? If they're taking a Bird and then just going to spit it out anyways?

HAINES: Yeah. That's not something I can answer that well. As you are well aware, we have seen that before.

CRAWFORD: Do you think it's a case of mistaken identity? That they're looking up, they see something floating there - maybe flapping around, and they reckon that it's something other than a Bird? Or do they know full well - they just can't stop themselves? They are curious, and they've just got to try?

HAINES: Well, I think their curiosity is part of it. There's no two ways around it. If they see an object, like a piece of seaweed on the surface, they quite commonly will go up to it and bite it and spit it out. No doubt, they do the same with the Mollymawks or other Birds. They don't specifically target Birds. At the end of the day, it just doesn't quite fit in with their appetite.

White Pointer Mating

CRAWFORD: When the female White Pointers arrive at the end of the season, do they come in without markings or scars?

HAINES:
Markings, when they first turn up? No. They’re normally reasonably clean, when they first turn up. 

CRAWFORD: Then do they gradually get a bit nicked up? Or is it more distinct or more severe?

HAINES: Yeah. It’s only after a bit of time that we start to see the bite marks. Maybe six to eight weeks, at least.

CRAWFORD: We’re talking end of March, early April - that kind of thing?

HAINES: That would be correct.

CRAWFORD: Describe the general kind of wounding or scarring that’s associated with that. What kinds of things have you seen?

HAINES: Well, I suppose the worst-case scenario is ... I’ve actually seen a round bite mark just behind the gill area. Sort of on the back, on the side. More on the side. Yeah that’s probably the worst-case scenario. A big female.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What are some of the other types of woundings?

HAINES: Most of them are just a few marks. And all around about that gill area.

CRAWFORD: On the body? On the fins?

HAINES: Yeah. Not so much on the fins, no. Mostly on the body.

CRAWFORD: If a White Pointer was really going to take a piece, it could probably take a full chunk?

HAINES: That’s right. 

CRAWFORD: Do you see a gradual increase in scarring from February, March on?

HAINES: Probably around about March, April that we see it, but more of that scarring. 

CRAWFORD: Do you ever notice a difference in behaviour of females with markings, as opposed to females without?

HAINES: Not so much behaviour. Not that I can think of. Most occasions though, the longer they’re here, the more condition they put on. 

CRAWFORD: And you’ve already said that the males, once the females tend to show up, they tend to be a little bit more, not docile but ...

HAINES: Yeah, they tend to settle down a wee bit.

CRAWFORD: Do you feel that there are any kind of hierarchies or social interactions where - like in the Dog pack you had mentioned before? Are there alpha or beta males? Do you get that type of thing?

HAINES: Absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that?

HAINES: With the males, you see them ... For example, it’s generally the big male that will come in first - and anything smaller is way out in the distance. 

CRAWFORD: By 'first' do you mean when you first set up berley trail at the station? 

HAINES; Yeah. Most occasions it will be a male that will already be there. And the other guys just tend to come in when there's an opportunity, when he moves away a little. There’s definitely an alpha. There’s no two ways around it. 

CRAWFORD: What about the females?

HAINES: Well, we don’t tend to see lots of females together. You get one female, and there will be a bunch of males sort of hanging around. They won't be far away. And then once they’ve moved on, you might even get on the same day another big female who might turn up. And she’s got different guys with her. 

CRAWFORD: Really? When the females are around, do you get any male-male interaction which is quite different from the norm?

HAINES: Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes I’ve seen it where males ... they stick together. And every time you see one, guaranteed you see the other one. 

CRAWFORD: Males of the same size, or of different size? 

HAINES: No, they tend to be reasonably similar in size. And sometimes ... I’m trying to think of which Sharks we’ve had that with. But yeah, we’ve seen that on the odd occasion over the years. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that’s happening?

HAINES: They just seemed to have bonded, and something's going on between them. I don’t know what it is.

CRAWFORD: Any types of alpha-alpha battles? Or is that pretty much done by the time the females show up?

HAINES: I think it gets cleaned up pretty quickly. They do fight, there’s no two ways around it. I’ve seen them. We’ve had Sharks swimming close together, up towards or just out from the cage - and all of a sudden you see one bang into the other one. Whether that’s accidental I don’t know. But ...

CRAWFORD: But it’s still a body slam?

HAINES: It’s a body slam, to some degree. 

CRAWFORD: A mouth slam, or a body slam?

HAINES: Not so much a mouth slam, it’s more of a body slam, yeah. I haven’t actually seen a Shark bite another Shark. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What other kinds of examples could be that kind of antagonistic male-male fighting?

HAINES: I have seen about a 3 metre Shark ... going back probably five, six years ago, that had a huge chunk taken out the side of its gill plate. That was obviously done by a bigger Shark. He was actually found washed ashore at Ruapuke about two or three weeks later. So, obviously it got the better of him, that injury did. 

CRAWFORD: Have you seen any cannibalism in these White Pointers?

HAINES: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Female to female interactions - what are they like? 

HAINES: No. Just don’t see it. I’ve never seen two females together. Not that I can think of. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You’ve already talked about big males, little males. Do you get little females? 

HAINES: We do get small females there. Generally probably about 3 1/2 metres would probably be about the smallest I think I might have seen. I can’t remember. But like I said, I can’t place seeing two females together. 

CRAWFORD: But you said when the females are here, they’re tended by males.

HAINES: Males aren’t far away. 

CRAWFORD: Big males? Little males?

HAINES: Yeah, can be a mix. Absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: When the females actually do come round, what type of response do they get from the males?

HAINES: When the Sharks come in towards the cage, the males come in first. When the female does come in, she’ll be just close by. She might be swimming around the bottom. She won’t be far away. She’ll always have that entourage with her wherever she goes.

CRAWFORD: And they’re circling, or they’re following, or they’re …

HAINES: They’re following from a reasonably close distance. But you know, they might be six to eight metres away, that sort of thing. 

CRAWFORD: How many of these males, typically?

HAINES: Maybe four or five males. 

CRAWFORD: And the female demonstrably larger than the males?

HAINES: Not in length, no. But certainly in girth. 

CRAWFORD: Are the males doing anything other than following?

HAINES: Just following… yeah. That’s all they seem to be doing.

CRAWFORD: Do you think it’s the big males that are going to be ultimately mating with the big females?

HAINES: Look, that’s my thoughts. I don’t believe that a little guy is going to get an opportunity. I mean number one, if you look at the animal world, they want the best genes, and you’re not going to get the best genes from a three and a half metre Great White. 

CRAWFORD: It depends. When it grows up maybe. But at least at that younger stage.

HAINES: Yeah, that’s right. They’ll get their opportunity in time, if they keep coming back. 

CRAWFORD: Is there any behaviour that you see the females engaging in ... that is distinctively female, in regards to these smaller or bigger males? 

HAINES: Not with other Sharks. But I think that most of the females are quite relaxed. And what I mean by relaxed is that you know, they’re coming towards the cage, having a good look. They poke the cage, you know? We don’t even have to have a bait in the water for a female. I don’t know, was it last year or the year before, or maybe the season before that ... we had Discovery [Channel] with us, and we had a female that came up to the back of the platform on the boat again. She stuck her head out of the water, and leaned against the platform. There again, she did the snapping thing. And that was all on that Discovery documentary they made.

CRAWFORD: But in terms of social behaviour - females' response to the males, you haven’t really seen anything?

HAINES: Nah. I don’t think they give a hoot about them, so long as they keep clear of her - until she’s ready. 

CRAWFORD: And when do you think she’s ready? How can you tell?

HAINES: Look, I can’t really tell. I suppose one of the things with a lot of the Sharks when they first come in, they're not necessarily in good condition. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, you did mention that before. How can you tell? 

HAINES: Mainly because they’re quite slim. And I mean obviously it doesn’t affect their length - but their girth, definitely. 

CRAWFORD: Do you see, at least for some individuals that you see repeatedly, do you see them put on weight, while they’re here?

HAINES: Absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: Over the course of how long, do you figure?

HAINES: I don’t think it takes them long. I think once they get here they start feeding immediately, if they get that opportunity. But I would say over a month that you could see a good change in their girth. 

CRAWFORD: That ties back to the beginning of our conversation. It’s not as if this is a one-destination, one-purpose place. The feeding opportunities are very important, you believe?

HAINES: Absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: Leading up to a change in condition ... maybe related to specifically getting bulked up for reproduction?

HAINES: Yeah, I would imagine. That’s my thoughts.

CRAWFORD: Whether or not they actually engage in mating, it still takes energy to go through these different migration and social behaviours.

HAINES: Well, put it this way - if they don’t get themselves in good condition, they’re not going to be mating. I mean the animal kingdom, if you’re in poor condition, you’re going to miss out. 

CRAWFORD: And if those animals do make the decision to go on a migration to get here - that’s not a cheap investment, either. 

HAINES: No. 

CRAWFORD: As the season progresses, is there constantly an influx - in terms of the number of animals? Or does it level off?

HAINES: No, the males still keep coming - probably until around about late March. I think it starts to level off around that period. 

CRAWFORD: And then it holds for how long, roughly?

HAINES: About mid-July.

CRAWFORD: It kind of peters off after that?

HAINES: Yeah, it does. I know times I’ve been out there in July, we’ve had Sharks one day, the next day nothing. And you bait day after day  - it’s almost as if they disappear over a one- or two-day period. 

CRAWFORD: What do you think would account for that? 

HAINES: Well, I don’t know what it is. A time clockm or someone says to them, "Righto. Let’s go."

CRAWFORD: Remember how we talked about when they come in ... it seems to you that they’re usually coming in as individual animals. And yet, is it the case that when they leave, they leave as individual animals or as a group?

HAINES: I believe they leave as individuals. I don’t believe they leave as a group.

CRAWFORD: But they all leave at the same time. 

HAINES: One of the things also, is that around about that period the Seal pups are gone. And that plays a role in it as well. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Is it the case then, that when the Seal pups go - then all of the individual White Pointers take off?

HAINES: Yeah, that’s probably a part of it. 

CRAWFORD: Tell me just a little bit more about that. Is that something that is noticeable> Do you see the Seals - and then all of a sudden, all of the pups are gone?

HAINES: Yeah, the bulk. The Seal pups - not the adults. The bulk of them have moved on, because we’re ready for the next generation of Seal pups to be born. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I’ll be talking to some Seal biologists about that.

HAINES: See what their thoughts are.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, I will. Peter said a similar thing, in terms of you go out there with the animals, and the next day they’re gone. And pretty much that’s the end of the season. I think he said he’s been late enough in the season that he’s seen that a couple times, but he tends to cease his operations prior to that. You extend a little bit later than Pete?

HAINES: I’ve gone right up to the middle of July. And then all of a sudden, it just hits you. But most occasions, it’s weather that hits you. I think last season we had snow about mid-June. And once it starts snowing in Queenstown and that, the passenger numbers - you just can’t get the bookings. 

CRAWFORD: Right. So, there’s a great deal of uncertainty of where these White Pointers are ctually mating, where the courtship is taking place. But then you’ve got gestating females, and you’ve got live birth and it’s not really clear if there’s a place here where courtship and or reproduction is happening. I’d like your perspectives on that.

HAINES: Well put it this way ... from what I’ve seen courtship is taking place. There’s no two ways about it.

CRAWFORD: What makes you think that? 

HAINES: Mainly from those bites on the mature females that we’re getting. And of course, the males are congregating because of that purpose. Thirdly is that, we’re seeing the females after they’ve mated - obviously, the big bite marks that are there showing that they’re doing their thing with the males. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever heard of anybody that had actually witnessed White Pointers mating?

HAINES: No.

Dead White Pointer Incident

CRAWFORD: From your perspective, what happened between you and Zane Smith, and the dead White Pointer?

HAINES: Well, Zane was obviously setting nets when we got there [on the east side of Edwards Island], about 9 o'clock in the morning. It's the only site that we could've gone to. We had a boatload of passengers. Zane and all the other operators, the Pāua divers, they know we operate there. And we've never seen a Pāua diver operating there, while we've been going there. The first thing I did was asked Zane if there was anybody going to be in the water? He said no. He was setnetting pretty close to shore. We started operating out at our depth, which is about 10 to 12 metres, and of course we're operating there all day. He said I shifted in toward him - well, that's not quite the case. We shifted further along, mainly because the anchor had slipped. That's all that we did then. We were about the same depth, we hadn't changed our distance from shore. And we finished for the day. Somewhere after that, he caught the Shark. I suppose the other question is, why would you carry a rifle on board the vessel? On board his little boat, when all he's doing is setnetting for fish?

CRAWFORD: Some people have said that you and Zane had words. That there was an argument between the two of you, early on that day. 

HAINES: No. All Zane said to me was "Mike, you shouldn't be here." Zane and I have never had an argument.

CRAWFORD: Ok. How far away was your vessel from his net?

HAINES: Probably about 100 odd metres.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You left at the end of your day, and obviously you didn't see anything after that. What did you hear happened?

HAINES: Well, later that evening, I was actually running a vessel for Campbell McManaway- we were going away diving for Kinas. I heard that a Shark was caught in Zane’s net and shot.

CRAWFORD: What did you hear happened to that Shark?

HAINES: He cut the jaw out of it, removed the fins, opened the gut, and he dumped it.

CRAWFORD: Dumped it on the site where his setnet was? On the east side of Edwards island? 

HAINES: No, I heard he took it out to deeper water. Two weeks previous to that, there were rumours getting around that they were going to put an end to the Shark cage diving operation. The idea that if you kill a Shark, you can keep other Sharks away.

CRAWFORD: Let's focus on that - because my principal interest here is not really about the conflict in that case. It's not really about the dispute, or even the effect on operations. It's on the ecological effects of a dead White Pointer, from whatever source of death, causing some form of repulsion by other Sharks - moving them away from the region. When you say that it's 'well known' what are you referring to? What kinds of other instances have you heard of where a dead White Pointer can cause other White Pointers to vacate the vicinity? 

HAINES: They've known that in Polynesia, Pacific Islands for hundreds of years. What they do is they kill a Shark, anchor it down in bay or whatever, to keep other Sharks clear of that area.

CRAWFORD: Was this through kind of common knowledge you've heard this? Or was it a particular source? 

HAINES: Well, most people would know that. Anyone fishing for Great Whites on Stewart Island would know that. I’ve seen it on documentaries before about Hawaii because that’s what they used to do in particular beaches if they wanted to clear a beach of Sharks, that’s what they would do is wade a dead Shark in.

CRAWFORD: Is it just the presence of the dead White Pointer, or do you have to have body fluids being washed out in quantity?

HAINES: Well, it's the Shark decaying. It's emitting toxins that obviously the Great Whites can pick up on.

CRAWFORD: One thing that came up with the guys that were tending the Dunedin City Council Shark nets - they had examples where were there were dead White Pointers in their nets, and still had other White Pointers in the vicinity. In some cases immediately adjacent to the nets.

HAINES: The dead Sharks are Great Whites?

CRAWFORD: Yeah.

HAINES: Well, I'm surprised at that. I really am. Because if you look at South Australia when they had that Great White killed by Orcas, the Orcas moved on immediately - and they didn't have Great Whites for six weeks. This was off South Australia, Port Lincoln last year, probably late January. 

CRAWFORD: More recently, what has happened with White Pointers in this region, in this season?

HAINES: Well, we were getting five or so Sharks a day at one stage. And then all of a sudden it dropped to one Shark. Just overnight. And then a couple of days with one Shark. Then a couple of days with nothing. Then we had a day with the same individual Shark. And then all the way for weeks – nothing. And then I went out baiting again, didn't take any customers, and we got the same Shark that we had before. From then until now – nothing.

CRAWFORD: So, you've see no Sharks this season for how long now?

HAINES: That's 17 days.

CRAWFORD: What do you think is causing this?

HAINES: A dead Shark. It's the same pattern that we had two years ago.

CRAWFORD: Could another dead White Pointer - maybe under natural circumstances, a natural death? It have caused this?

HAINES: Not that I'm aware of. One of the things that my understanding is at ... you need to open the stomach cavity for starters. A lot of it has to do with ripping up the liver. That information I've got from the likes of experts up north – Mike Bhana. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, does a lot of film documentaries. I was talking to him about a week ago. He is pretty knowledgeable about dead Sharks, because they've obviously had those kinds of issues in South Australia and South Africa. That is my understanding. I knew that previous because, like I say, we had this happen a couple of years ago.

CRAWFORD: Are you of the opinion that this was a situation created by Human action?

HAINES: Absolutely. It's not natural. And again, talking about those Sharks that were in the Dunedin nets - were they opened up? Were they leaching? The likelihood was that they were not decaying, because they had only been in the nets for short period.

CRAWFORD: That's right, they were fresh kills. They would have been maybe two, three days in the nets at the most. Is it the leaching then, in your opinion, that's an important part of this.

HAINES: Absolutely.

White Pointer Interactions with Cage Dive Operation

CRAWFORD: You had mentioned before, about a time that a new White Pointer - one you had never seen before - had a run at your cage?

HAINES: We were at Seal Rocks, we actually had a film crew at the time because we didn’t have much success around Edwards - the Sharks were gone. I had to take them somewhere, so I took them to Seal Rocks. It was a nice day that particular day, and we got a couple of Sharks in there, we got a large male. But the very first thing he did when he come in, he just attacked the cage. We didn’t even have bait in the water, we were just berleying. 

CRAWFORD: When you say it 'attacked the cage' - what exactly did it do? 

HAINES: He come up and mouthed it. At reasonable sort of speed. 

CRAWFORD: He came in, circling first?

HAINES: No, we didn’t see him. 

CRAWFORD: The very first observation of this animal is, he’s at the cage, mouth open on the bars? Mouthing? Shaking?

HAINES: Oh, yeah, Shaking, yeah.

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for Human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]. Sounds like this was definitely a Level 4 encounter.

HAINES: Yeah. And this is not the first time we’ve actually come across this. We had another particular Shark, similar size. But he had a Remora on his head. This is probably about five, six years ago at Edwards Island. And he comes in, the very first time we’d seen him. He comes straight in. He never circled or anything. Comes straight in, we didn’t have bait in the water, just a bit of berley and he just attacked the cage. Similar sort of thing.

CRAWFORD: In both cases - berley, but not bait?

HAINES: No bait. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how long had you been berleying? Do you recall? 

HAINES: I think we’d probably been berleying for about an hour at Ruapuke. And probably not too dissimilar from Edwards Island as well. 

CRAWFORD: Any other White Pointers those days, prior to the attacks?

HAINES: At Ruapuke, he was the first in. At the back of Edwards Island, there had been a few others around, before he came in and hit the cage. And my thoughts are, once that took place - they settle down. They’ve never seen a cage before. It’s just one of those things that they needed to test out. 

CRAWFORD: In general, when your boat comes to the operations site, in this case post-permit into the region immediately around Edwards Island ... do you have any reason to think that there are some White Pointers that are in the region, but that actually vacate when the boat arrives?

HAINES:
Yeah. They don’t like us. 

CRAWFORD: And how is it that you’ve come to know that?

HAINES: We’ve seen them. One Shark last year we called Winston, we named him after Winston Peters. Winston Peters is one of those Sharks that once you start berleying, he’ll come up to the boat, and then that’s the last you see of him. He won’t hang around. He swims up to the boat, to the cage whatever, and then he’ll zip. He’s gone. 

CRAWFORD: For those animals that you do see come into proximity ... do you get some that just cruise at the periphery, but don’t come in close? Like the Level 2 or 3 encounters we talked about before?

HAINES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: I think you had mentioned before that the big males - sometimes, when they come in, they will stay at a fair distance. But not come into close proximity. 

HAINES: No, most occasions the big males are normally quiet. I wouldn’t call them active - they just cruise, they’re quite inquisitive.

CRAWFORD: Have you noticed over the years, any distinct patterns regarding the depth distribution of the Sharks over the course of the day? The depth in the water column?

HAINES: As the Sharks lose a bit of interest, they start descending to lower levels in the water column. And that's natural for Sharks. We see it time after time, from Sharks that have spent a little bit of time with us. 

CRAWFORD: In general, do the White Pointers hang out closer to the bottom as the day progresses?

HAINES: That can be said for maybe 75% of the Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Then with regards to the kind of Level 3 [Interested] and Level 4 [Active/Aggressive] Sharks, if they’re coming in close, showing some degree of curiosity, circling, mouthing behaviour. Do they mouth the cage or lines or buoys or that type of thing?

HAINES: We’ve had Sharks do that. There’s no two ways around it. Usually in a casual sense. Like Ra, for example. Like the female that we had with the film crew. They do come in and do unusual things on occasions. 

CRAWFORD: What’s an example of an unusual thing?

HAINES: Gaping. When they lift their head out of the water. Coming up to the platform, lifting their bodies out of the water, or lifting their heads out of the water.

CRAWFORD: But not with any sharp movements of shaking or tension? Anything like that?

HAINES: Just casual. Yeah, relaxed. 

CRAWFORD: And then there’s Level 4 - the animals with attitude of one kind or another?

HAINES: Yeah, some.

CRAWFORD: In general, if we divide percentages across Level 1 through to 4, what percentage of animals would be Level 1 - Observation only, and they never approach? 

HAINES: Maybe 10 percent. 

CRAWFORD: What percentage of animals would be Level 2 Swim-By?

HAINES: There again, probably another 10 percent. 

CRAWFORD: And then how do you split the remaining 80% between Level 3 [Interest] and Level 4 [Active-Aggressive]?

HAINES: I’d say Level 4 [Active-Aggressive] is probably only around about 10 percent as well. 

CRAWFORD: Leaving 70% in the Level 3 [Interest] category? Repeated visits, circling, maybe poking but without attitude?

HAINES: Yeah. The majority. 

CRAWFORD: Let's talk about the Level 4s. I know it’s not simple, and different individuals have different types of attitude as well. What’s one kind of attitude in that Level 4 group?

HAINES: Coming straight up to the cage and attacking it. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. Like you described before. When you say they 'attack the cage' - describe how they do that.

HAINES: They come straight to the cage, and physically snap at it.

CRAWFORD: Is it fast? 

HAINES: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Is it sustained?

HAINES: Nah. They might do it two or three times then pull away. And then they become a Level 3. Like I saw with that one from the Tropics with the Remora, once he did that he settled down and become a very good Level 3. 

CRAWFORD: Those animals come in horizontally or vertically?

HAINES: Any direction. Yep. And I believe that those particular Sharks are in the scenario that they’ve actually never seen a cage before. 

CRAWFORD: What do you think is going on in that White Pointer's head - that it would attack on first contact?

HAINES: Well, I suppose he’s looking at it and thinking "Yeah. Can I eat this damn thing? No? If not, then I’ll just be friendly with it." But I don’t exactly know why they’re doing it. I’ve had it probably on an average, we might get one a year. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Throughout the course of the season, how many different individual White Pointers do you expect you see? Either as one-timers, or repeats or even seasonal ones - how many different individuals at Edwards Island?

HAINES: I would probably have seen maybe up to 40. 

CRAWFORD: I think you’ll see why I’m asking this because if we do the 10, 10, 70, 10 percentages of the different Levels - then that means that there are approximately four animals in that Level 4 group.

HAINES: That’s right.

CRAWFORD: For these Level 4 White Pointers, what specifically would be the attitude or the edge from them? 

HAINES: Getting the bait. Attacking the bait constantly. So, what I mean when they attack it - they don’t just swim up towards it. They physically jump at the damn thing. Not such what you’d call a vertical breach - but a horizontal breach. 

CRAWFORD: So, they’re coming in with speed? 

HAINES: Oh, absolutely.

CRAWFORD: They are really after it?

HAINES: They want it. They want it. If they miss it, they’re chicken shit? You know what I mean? No doubt it’s bred into them, these particular Sharks that must win. Every time. 

CRAWFORD: And that’s in contrast to other individual White Pointers that just don’t respond to the bait? Or if they do, in kind of a lazy sense?

HAINES: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: They follow the bait, but they don’t attack it?

HAINES: Yeah. It’s only one or two Sharks that have done it all season. 

CRAWFORD: What names does your crew typically use for those Level 4 animals?

HAINES: One we called Turbo. And the reason we called him that was the reason he come along, he cranked up, and bang he went for it. And if he didn’t get the bait that particular time, as soon as you put the bait out again, he’d have another go. 

CRAWFORD: A male?

HAINES: Yeah, it’s a male. 

CRAWFORD: Small? Large?

HAINES: Round about that 4 metre mark. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Is this maybe the animal that Pete’s crew calls Arthur?

HAINES: It might be. Yeah it could be.

CRAWFORD: Hyperactive?

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And that it’s always pumped, just go, go, go, go. 

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What other type of Level 4 behaviours have you seen? 

HAINES: Well, I suppose that covers the bulk of it, really. Obviously, we’ve had them - the same particular Sharks that are chasing the bait. But they don’t tend to attack the cage. 

CRAWFORD: Do you ever get any kind of more aggressive, clamping behaviour on platforms, or part of the boat, or part of the cage  - anything like that? 

HAINES: Not really, no. 

CRAWFORD: I’m just trying to understand - I know Level 4 is a complex, artificial category. It doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s aggression, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s predatory. It could be having a bad day, it could be a number of different things. 

HAINES: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that it’s possible for an individual White Pointer to actually have 'bad attitude'? That it can maybe have a negative reaction, or some type of a response with Humans? It just doesn’t like Humans? Do you think that figures out at all?

HAINES: I don’t think it’s about not liking Humans ... because I don’t think they quite understand that side of it. But I would imagine yes, that they do have their own attitudes, no different from other animals. Everyone is different. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that if a White Pointer had a bad experience with Humans, that it could affect what Level group it was in - up or down?

HAINES: I don’t believe so. I’d be surprised. I mean obviously we’ve seen the Sharks with hooks, we’ve seen Slash - that was there caused by Human action. 

CRAWFORD: Tell me about Slash. 

HAINES: He’s got the big tear just back from his mouth, in-between his gill plates and his mouth. 

CRAWFORD: What do you think accounted for that?

HAINES: My understanding was it was Human action that caused it, because he had a hook in his mouth. My understanding is that it was done by Scientists.

CRAWFORD: Scientists doing what?

HAINES: For tagging purposes, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think the tags themselves have any substantial effect on the behaviour of the animals?

HAINES: Well, immediately after, yes it does. In fact, it lasts for a couple of weeks after a Shark’s been tagged. Whether it be by a harpoon, or it was removed from the water and had the tag screwed to its fin. One thing we have found, is that Sharks within a two- to three-week period after tagging - they are very cautious. They are very stand-offish.

CRAWFORD: You’ll still see them, but they won’t come into proximity?

HAINES: No, they won’t come into proximity. They take a while to settle down. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Once they do settle down ...

HAINES: On most occasions, they tend to very good Sharks, Level 3s.

CRAWFORD: No noticeable long-term difference in terms of their individual behaviour?

HAINES: No, not that I can think of.

CRAWFORD: Given that you know these White Pointers individually, and that you develop a very strong sense of individual patterns - do you think the tagged animals become the same animal again, after tagging?

HAINES: I think so, yeah. They settle down. 

CRAWFORD: Anything else that you think might cause an animal to move from Level 3 to Level 4? 

HAINES: I can’t think of anything. Because most Sharks, I mean they don’t tend to change. For example, you’re aware we used to use a sack with bait in it for the berley trail?

CRAWFORD: Yes.

HAINES: And I know given the opportunity, yes we’ve had the odd Shark go up and tear that to pieces. And I suppose it’s all about giving them the opportunity to do so. Other than that, I can’t sort of think of anything else. 

CRAWFORD: Previously you had said that for a period of time you had been using a 2-dimensional carpet cutout. And that had been quite effective in bringing the White Pointers in. As a result of the DOC permit coming in, you were told that you could no longer use that cutout.

HAINES: That’s right.

CRAWFORD: Separately, I've heard about back in the old days - a classic strategy to attract a White Pointer for shooting it, was to throw some newspaper out on the water ... because these animals are just so innately curious about things that are floating on the surface. Did you ever hear about using newspaper that way?

HAINES: Yes. Yes, I've heard of that. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that in general, that type of curiosity bringing a White Pointer in - is it a sustained thing, that they would hang around for a while. Is it a one off - if they saw the thing later, they wouldn't be so curious? I guess I’m going back to a previous part of our discussion - when you used that carpet cutout, were you able to keep the Shark for a period of time? Repeatedly?

HAINES: Absolutely. It worked quite well.

CRAWFORD: Do you believe, in terms of the period of time that the animal was retained, was it roughly equivalent to the berley and the bait?

HAINES: What we found, was that on most occasions the Shark showed no interest in the bait. But by putting out the Seal silhouette, they showed more interest in that. 

CRAWFORD: If berley is used, and there is no throw bait, no bait on a rope or no accessory feeding - do you think the Sharks would hang around as long as they do with a bait? Or would they lose interest quickly? 

HAINES: With some Sharks, they would not hang around at all without a throw bait. With a throw bait, maybe 60% of the Sharks would hang around. With just berley, maybe 40% of the Sharks would hang around.

CRAWFORD: Did DOC ever discuss with you the idea that perhaps throw baits would be eliminated in the future?

HAINES: No.

6B. effects of cage tour dive operations

CRAWFORD: In general, do you think that your cage dive operation has a lasting, important effect on the behaviour of the White Pointers?

HAINES: I don’t think it affects them - there’s no long-term effect. If we look at the last four days, the maximum we’ve had a Shark hanging around is about probably three quarters of an hour, at the most. So, what we’re doing is certainly short-term. The time that we’ve got them here, obviously we’re doing things to only get them to come within view of the customers. I mean that’s what it’s about. It’s not about getting them to attack the cage, or crash into the cage, or anything like that. It’s about trying to entice a Shark to hang around the boat. It’s no different from being a Shark fishing tour where the Sharks hang around the baited fish, or the hooks or whatever that are in the water. It’s no different from that. So, the effects on the Sharks, to my belief, and even I know to the Scientist’s belief - is negligible. 

CRAWFORD: When you say to the 'Scientists' who or what do you mean?

HAINES: Well, you’ve probably heard the report about the Australian Scientist who’s been studying the Shark cage operations in South Australia. And he’s come out and said that he has not seen any noticeable changes in the behaviour of the Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's start drilling down to some of the specifics. In terms of White Pointer-Human interactions, do you think that the cage tour dive operations are in any way changing how the Sharks would respond to Humans in different contexts? At different places or different times?

HAINES: Nah. Not at all. Just because divers are in the cage ... the Sharks, even though they've got good visual means, they’ve got to look through this mesh, they see a whole bunch of bubbles, it must be a little confusing for them, to be quite honest. 

CRAWFORD: When you’ve read in the papers what people are saying, some think there are important effects of Shark cage tour dive operations. What’s one of the most common claims that you’ve heard people make?

HAINES: Well, they’re saying that the Sharks are swimming in packs into Halfmoon Bay. They’ve always gone there, they’ve caught Great Whites in Halfmoon Bay - before the times that we’ve been Shark cage diving obviously. Over decades ago, they were catching Great Whites in that area. 

CRAWFORD: Are people saying that with Shark cage dive operations taking place out in the Titi Islands, that it is increasing the number of White Pointers going into the bays?

HAINES: Yeah. They’re saying that we’re causing them to be attracted to Halfmoon Bay. And at the end of the day, they’ve always been going there. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that there is a greater number of White Pointers in the general region, including Halfmoon Bay, as a result of the cage tour dive operations?

HAINES: No. Those Sharks were already there.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that there is any basis to believe in the idea that White Pointers are following the cage tour dive operation boats - if those boats should happen to go into Halfmoon Bay or Paterson Inlet?

HAINES: No. Not at all. I mean unless the Sharks can sustain speeds of 14, 15 knots - no, it’s not possible. And once we're berleying and baiting, that's it - we are stopped. Completely. So, there's no reason for them to follow at all. There’s more likelihood of them following a commercial fishing boat that’s sitting in Halfmoon Bay, that’s gutting and cleaning up Fish before they go to the wharf.

CRAWFORD: Your operation is based out of Bluff. Do you ever go into Halfmoon Bay?

HAINES: To pick up passengers and drop them off. 

CRAWFORD: If you go into Halfmoon Bay from Edwards Island, roughly how long of a trip is that at 14 knots? 

HAINES: Well, it’s normally taken us about 20, 25 minutes. 

CRAWFORD: If I’m understanding you correctly, that period of time at that speed - there’s no White Pointer that would be able to follow you?

HAINES: Nah. Not a chance. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever heard of other circumstances, other fishing boats or whatever, where there was following behaviour by White Pointers? That the Sharks were reported to be following a vessel?

HAINES: I’ve heard other towns ... like Colac Bay, all the years we’ve been going out there. Riverton, not so much. But Colac Bay, when the boats are coming in, they’re cleaning up Fish as they’re steaming along. They’re only doing three, four knots. Cleaning up Fish. Yeah, why wouldn’t a Shark follow that?

CRAWFORD: It’s not so much 'why wouldn’t they.' It's more 'do they?' Have people seen White Pointers following slow-moving commercial fishing boats?

HAINES: Yeah. It’s brought them in. Absolutely. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know anybody that has actually seen it happen? White Pointers in particular?

HAINES: I think if you talk to some fisherman here, you’ll probably get that, if you ask them the question. I think you’d probably find that some of them will say yes. 

CRAWFORD: The vessel you have now - is it the first year for the vessel?

HAINES: Yes.

CRAWFORD: This year, during the early part of the season before the [temporary disappearance of Sharks at Edwards Island], did you notice that it was pretty much the same numbers of White Pointers that were coming around? At the same general frequencies as previous years? Or did you notice that there were more or less Sharks?

HAINES: Generally, when we start the season, we start with a low number of Sharks. And as time goes on, those numbers increase.

CRAWFORD: Right. What I'm asking - did it increase this year at about the same rate as last year?

HAINES: Absolutely. And the year before, and the year before. Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. And obviously, if it was a new vessel this year, arguments could have been made one way or the other. That the White Pointers would've been more or less attracted to a different, new vessel - if they distinguished between vessels.

HAINES: It's irrelevant. There was no difference whatsoever.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Some people have said that the White Pointers are associating the cage dive place with the smell of food. That they’re associating the presence of boats ...

HAINES: The Sharks are associating Edwards Island with the fact that it is the centre of their earth. That’s the reason why they’re coming here. I spoke to Clinton, I was trying to find out about particular Shark work, and this was going back a few years. He gave me information, sent me an email with the details of which direction some particular Sharks have been going, and every one of them was ending up at Edwards Island every third or fourth day, as an example. Not accurately that number of days for all of them, but they’re always ending up at some stage at Edwards Island. And he said to me at that point in time "Mike, that’s the centre of their earth." 

CRAWFORD: Why is that the case, do you think?

HAINES: Well, like we said, they’re going to Edwards Island. There’s something special that takes place at Edwards Island that we are sort of beating around the bush with. 

CRAWFORD: So, we know what’s happening, but we don’t know why?

HAINES: Yeah. We don’t know why. What is special about Edwards Island? They’re not going to Ruapuke, they’re not going to bloody Jacky Lee Island, they’re going to Edwards Island for a special purpose. 

CRAWFORD: If you had to go out on a limb, and try and identify something about the bathymetry or the currents or the food or the eco-system or something about Edwards Island - what do you think might be a very good thing to investigate more?

HAINES: Well, it’s obviously a combination of all of those things that you’ve just said. Talking about the food source, the water and all that sort of thing, the visibility, the temperature. But obviously there’s got to be something more than that. One of the things that we have in Foveaux Strait, and no doubt they have it in other Straits and oceans, is localised magnetic anomalies. So, some particular areas you get a strong magnetic force. And you’ll see it on the chart ...

CRAWFORD: A compass deviation?

HAINES: Compass deviations. And I mean if you think of Birds and lots of other animals, they always follow magnetic courses. 

CRAWFORD: It’s definitely not only a possibility, but it’s been demonstrated in a bunch of different animals.

HAINES: Well, it has. And I would gather that the plays some role. I don’t know how much.

CRAWFORD: You think that maybe it’s something that perhaps we can’t even detect at present, that the animals are responding to.

HAINES: They know something that we don’t. 

CRAWFORD: And it’s that place, even on a micro scale, in the Titi Islands, they’re all within the same region - but there’s something about that one island.

HAINES: That’s right. And for Islanders, those against what we’re doing, they say we’re causing them to go there and feed and blah, blah, blah. I mean it’s a load of nonsense. It’s a pity that some of the Scientists weren’t trying to explain to them why they believe they’re going to Edwards Island. And that no one’s actually done that with those people. Even though you’re not going to change their minds anyway, because once people are set in concrete what their beliefs are, it’s very hard to change them. 

CRAWFORD: Some people have said that there are a greater number of Sharks in and around the Titi Islands now, after the cage dive operations than before - say 10 years ago. Regardless of the mechanism, regardless of whether the cage diving was responsible. Do you think there has been a general increase in numbers, regardless of cause?

HAINES: No, not at all. And the reasoning behind that is the public are taking more notice of what’s happening. Sharks have always been there. We know that from some of those accounts that I’ve given you, and no doubt some of the accounts that you’ve had from other fisherman - that the Great Whites have always been here before, previous to the Shark cage diving operations. 

CRAWFORD: The presence of the White Pointers, yes - but in terms of the number of White Pointers increasing over the past decade?

HAINES: Yeah, but keep in mind that we’re talking the public now, and them taking more notice of what’s out there with the Sharks. I mean some of these stories that we’re getting from Halfmoon Bay - I believe some of them are exaggerated. You know at the end of the day, the Sharks have always been there. We know that. 

CRAWFORD: So, you don’t believe that there has been any increase in the abundance of White Pointers, for whatever reason?

HAINES: Nah.

CRAWFORD: The second thing then is ... if there has been no change in the number of White Pointers, has there been a change in their behaviour? Some people say that prior to Shark cage dive operations, they used to be able to go over to the Titi Islands - and yes the White Pointers were there, but they didn’t really interact with the people either in boats or below the surface of the water, as much as they do now. 

HAINES: That’s not true. That’s where they’re wrong. The difference now is that there are more and more boats going out. People are going out more often than what they used to do. I’m talking about recreational boats here, because most fisherman have always had some interaction with Great Whites over the years that they’ve been fishing. 

CRAWFORD: Right. So, let's talk specifically about boaters then. There has been a lot of discussion about people from the mainland, from Bluff for instance, going out in their pleasure craft over to Edwards Island - including when the cage dive operations are not running. And they’re not even doing anything other than being there - and the White Pointers come and circle around the boat. Have you heard about those types of experiences?

HAINES: No. Not at all. I haven’t heard that from anyone. 

CRAWFORD: Is that the type of thing that could happen, or did happen, prior to the cage tour dive operations?

HAINES: Absolutely. We used to fish off there ... not on a regular basis, but I’ve had Great Whites come up to the charter boats that I’ve had while we’ve been recreationally fishing off them. That was all previous to Shark cage diving as well.

CRAWFORD: That’s a little bit different in the sense that you were fishing, and you had some kind of a Fish cue that the White Pointers might have been responding to. What I’m talking about is ...

HAINES: If a recreational boat's going to turn up immediately upon us being there, the likelihood is yes - they’re going to get a Shark swimming across.

CRAWFORD: Finally, in terms of that idea of White Pointers associating Humans with the smell of Fish mince, berley. The association between that smell and Humans in suits in the water, that kind of association behaviour ... do you think that White Pointers are capable of that type of association in the first place? 

HAINES: No. I don’t believe that they’re intelligent enough for that.

CRAWFORD: So, not the type of thing like Pavlov's Dogs - where they associate the bell and the food?

HAINES: No. No. Not at all.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that?

HAINES: Well, number one - what we’re using is a natural bait. They eat Tuna when they’re in the Tropics. because what else is there for them to eat? It’s a high oil content Fish. So that’s all that they have to eat anyway. When we send out a berley trail it’s Tuna, hence that’s why DOC don’t want us using such things as mammals or sheep or beef stuff because at the end of the day it’s a natural food source for the Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. But the Shark's association between the berley and the Humans. That’s one thing that some people say they think is happening with the cage dive operations.

HAINES: Put it this way - I don’t believe that a Shark is going through his head thinking "Oh, these people are putting this out’. It’s not possible. A Shark just isn’t capable of recognizing that link. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think the White Pointers aren't capable of that association?

HAINES: At the end of the day, I would imagine you’d have to be in the water - and physically putting this stuff out. For us to be standing on a boat ... ok, it’s come from a boat. But Sharks don’t recognize this as a boat. They recognize this is an object that’s sitting on the water. Not a boat. They don’t know what a boat is. It’s an object that sits on the water. No different from any other floating objects, whether it be a container or a log. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Have you seen anybody, or have you heard of anybody, from Bluff doing day trips to go over and see the White Pointers in the Titi Islands - and feeding them Fish?

HAINES: Yes, I have seen it. Everything from commercial fishing boats to charter boats to recreational boats.

CRAWFORD: When did that type of thing start up? When did people start coming over for these eco-moments with the White Pointers?

HAINES: Probably going back five or six years.

CRAWFORD: And how many times might you see it through the course of your season?

HAINES: Maybe a couple of dozen occasions.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Last question. In terms of potentially distracting the White Pointers, do you think that the animals would otherwise be doing something else important if the cage dive operations were not running?

HAINES: Well, they’re not doing anything else during the day. All they’re doing is swimming. Being inquisitive that they are, as soon as they pick up the berley trail, they come in and have a look. 

CRAWFORD: This gets back to something we talked about last time, the day-night differences in their levels and kinds of behaviour. 

HAINES: Yeah. They tend to feed early in the morning, and later in the evening - through the element of surprise. And they’re not going to get that during the day. 

CRAWFORD: Do you notice a decrease in activity during the middle of the day? Or is there any other type of change in activity level that you’ve noticed?

HAINES: Not really. I can go out any time of the day, bait Sharks - and they still come in.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That's all I've got. Thank you very much for participating. 

HAINES: Yeah.

Copyright © 2020 Mike Haines and Steve Crawford