Matt Atkins
YOB: 1978
Experience: Charter Operator
Regions: Stewart Island, Tasman Bay, Great Barrier Reef, Mozambique
Interview Location: Halfmoon Bay/Paterson Inlet, Stewart Island, NZ
Interview Date: 23 November 2015
Post Date: 26 January 2020; Copyright © 2020 Matt Atkins and Steve Crawford
1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS
CRAWFORD: Matt, where and when were you born?
ATKINS: Featherston, 1978. Just at the Wairarapa, the bottom of the North Island. My family moved here when I was three months old. My Dad and my Granddad were fishing down here. I was down here until I was nine years old, and then we moved up to Nelson.
CRAWFORD: Alright, so we’ve got you down here at Stewart Island during an early period. I would imagine like most kids here, you probably spent time around the water. But your Dad and Grandad were fishing here?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: What kind of fishing were they doing?
ATKINS: Like most people down here, they were doing Cod, Groper, a little bit of Shark, Crayfish and Pāua.
CRAWFORD: With regards to the Cod fishing, were they Codpotting? Line fishing?
ATKINS: Potting, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Did you do any setnetting at all?
ATKINS: No. They did longlining for Shark, but no setnetting.
CRAWFORD: Longlining on the bottom?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And those longlines would have gone for a kilometre or more?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: By 'Shark' was that School Shark?
ATKINS: Yeah. Basically, the consumable stuff they use for fish and chips.
CRAWFORD: Did you ever go out fishing with your Dad and Granddad?
ATKINS: Yes. Well, sometimes. I’ve got memories of going out on the boat, but they were more to do with big events and stuff that I’ve been reminded of later on.
CRAWFORD: So early childhood here from five to nine, and then you went away to Nelson?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Still around coastal waters in general?
ATKINS: We were farming up in Nelson. I left school when I was 16, and I started working in Tasman National Park and tourism.
CRAWFORD: Ok, so you were still living and working around a coastal environment?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Were you running water-taxis around the park? Or were you on DOC vessels, or anything like that?
ATKINS: At sixteen, I started out working at a lodge in the National Park, and doing a bit of guiding. Then I wound up working on the ferries, driving the tenders, picking people up off beaches. That was for about seven years.
CRAWFORD: Till you were 23? Roughly?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And you were working in those kinds of activities that whole time?
ATKINS: Yes, yes.
CRAWFORD: Were you ever doing any fishing up there? Anything like that?
ATKINS: No commercial fishing, no charter fishing. Just A to B transport, and tours.
CRAWFORD: Any recreational diving or spearfishing? Anything like that?
ATKINS: I did recreational diving. I did my dive ticket when I was 19. All the diving I’d done up around Abel Tasman, D'Urville Island. Out on the west coast, Karamea [Westhaven Inlet] was all hunter-gathering, diving for Crayfish.
CRAWFORD: Freediving as well?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Spearfishing, some Pāua diving, Kinas as well?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That went from 16 to 23, based in Nelson. Then what happened?
ATKINS: Actually, I was still in the same place, I had a change of job. I went to a water-taxi operation, and I did another seven years in the same area doing a similar job, but on smaller boats.
CRAWFORD: So, you were 23-30, roughly?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Then what happened.
ATKINS: In between also, I was seasonal within the first parts of that. I did a couple of stints working in the Whitsundays. Airlea Beach, Great Barrier Reef south of Cairns.
CRAWFORD: Alright, so you were off to Australia for this. Was that a week at a time, a month at a time?
ATKINS: No, I spent nine months in that one area on the first trip. And then on the second trip it was six months. It was basically my off-seasons.
CRAWFORD: Wintertime?
ATKINS: First season was winter and summer. Second season was just winter.
CRAWFORD: So, that was two off-seasons working in Australia?
ATKINS: Yeah. And one season in Mozambique.
CRAWFORD: Right after?
ATKINS: No, no. It was sort of spread apart, because I was doing other agricultural work during winter.
CRAWFORD: Ok, but this was all during your early 30’s?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: What were you doing for those jobs?
ATKINS: I was taking dive and snorkeling trips out on the coast.
CRAWFORD: Alright. Then what happened?
ATKINS: Once I done my stints during my early 30s, my Wife and I moved down here to start up this operation that we run today. This is coming into our 7th season of operating on Stewart Island.
CRAWFORD: When you moved back, you went directly into the water-taxi and charter operations, full-time?
ATKINS: Charter operation first, and then we purchased a second business coming up four years ago now.
CRAWFORD: Second business being the water-taxi?
ATKINS: Being the water-taxi, yes.
CRAWFORD: Right. And this was hardcore, full time?
ATKINS: Well, we were a new business, so it was slow for a start. And we are quite seasonal.
CRAWFORD: What’s the main season for you?
ATKINS: Pretty much from now [November] through till April.
CRAWFORD: Ok. But you're multi-purpose, in the sense that there are a bunch of different people that are attracted to you services. Your client base wants to go here, they want to go there, they want to do a wide variety of things all over the place?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: So, you started spending a significant amount of time around Stewart Island from 2009?
ATKINS: To be fair, on that first season I hadn’t spent a lot of time fishing in the Strait, because my family was here, and we were always using small runabouts. So, for the first season I played it safe and stuck with what I knew.
CRAWFORD: In the bays?
ATKINS: Yeah, in close. Basically, in the lee of Stewart Island, closer to Island mainly, than out in Foveaux Strait and the Muttonbird Islands.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That was the first year. Then you started to get your chops. More characteristically for the second year and beyond, roughly what was your spilt in time for the different regions?
ATKINS: The bulk, about 80% of what we'd be doing was out round the Muttonbird Islands - weather permitting. And then everything else. It was very rare for us to do a trip down the sou'east.
CRAWFORD: So, not to Port Pegasus ...
ATKINS: No. We’d do maybe a couple fishing trips a year down around Port Adventure. But that’s as far as we would go.
CRAWFORD: But these Northern Titi Islands were a regular destination, weather permitting?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And closer to shore on the east side of the Island, when it was windy?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: In general, when you charter - what are the places you run between? And then what are the things that you’re doing when running between those different places?
ATKINS: For our charter operation, we do quite a broad range of things. It’s not just fishing. We do pelagic bird-watching trips out round the Muttonbird Islands, out in front of Halfmoon Bay.
CRAWFORD: The Northern Titi Islands?
ATKINS: Yeah, these one's right off here. And we also do fishing trips out round there. And we do historical tours up around Paterson Inlet, where we are now.
CRAWFORD: When you do charter recreational fishing, is it rod-and-reel or something else?
ATKINS: It’s rod-and-reel, yes.
CRAWFORD: What you guys call linefishing?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Is it for Blue Cod specifically, or whatever you catch?
ATKINS: Specifically Blue Cod, yes.
CRAWFORD: So, you’ve got bait on the hook, you lower to the bottom, and you jig?
ATKINS: Yeah, yeah. Bottom fishing.
CRAWFORD: Any recreational fishing happening along the coastline of Stewart Island, or is it pretty much all Titi Islands?
ATKINS: We fish basically in against the mainland coast of Stewart Island, when the weather doesn’t allow us to get out to the Titi Islands.
CRAWFORD: Right, you had mentioned that.
ATKINS: Basically, our fishing range is from Port Adventure ... so the Southeast, and up to say Christmas Village.
CRAWFORD: Is Paterson Inlet someplace that you fish during charters?
ATKINS: On very rare occasions. We try to leave Paterson Inlet alone, as much as possible. On special occasions where we’ve got someone that is either in a wheelchair or mobility-restricted, where they want to catch a fish, then we sometimes do it, but we restrict it to two fish per person. But other than that, we try to leave Paterson Inlet alone.
CRAWFORD: Ok. What about dive operations? Do you take people out diving?
ATKINS: For the first three years of operation we took people diving, and then we stopped.
CRAWFORD: Any particular reason?
ATKINS: Because of the Sharks.
CRAWFORD: We’ll get back to that.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: I’m trying to think of different kinds of charter activities. Kayakers?
ATKINS: Yeah, I mean we transport a lot of people. We don’t do kayaking ourselves. I mean we do anything, from going up to the Salmon Farms and talking about the marine farming operations up there. Anything of interest to people who are visiting Stewart Island.
CRAWFORD: The Salmon Farming in Big Glory Bay?
ATKINS: Yeah. Just in front of us here, we’re about to cut across, is the Whalers’ Base. That’s quite a historical site. We take people up there and do tours, and talk about history and things like that. We take people where we’re going right now, scenic trips up Freshwater River. Yeah, we’re highly varied in our operation.
CRAWFORD: Right. Started out with the charter, and then I think you said after three years you added the water-taxi?
ATKINS: Yes. We purchased an existing water-taxi operation that had been operating down here for about 21 years. This boat that we’re in now is the replacement boat for that operation. This boat started December last year.
CRAWFORD: Any other kinds of experiences on or in the water around New Zealand that you haven’t already described? Anything of note?
ATKINS: No. That's sort of the places I've worked in the marine environment. Recreationally, I've been all over Stewart Island, Tasman Bay, Great Barrier Reef, Mozambique. That’s it.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That actually went faster than I thought. You answer questions very efficiently.
ATKINS: Thank you.
2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS
CRAWFORD: For you as an individual, to what degree would you say Māori culture and Māori knowledge has affected your understanding of the marine ecosystem?
ATKINS: I have got Māori in me. My Grandmother was almost full-blooded Māori. Our whakapapa was from the north, on the east coast. I’ve taken an interest in Māori history around this area, through my work. But that’s about the extent of it.
CRAWFORD: I’d put you down maybe as a Medium in that regard?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Exactly the same question about the degree to which Science knowledge has affected your understanding of New Zealand's marine ecosystems generally, and the White Pointers specifically?
ATKINS: I put it at High, maybe. Because I tend to make contact with researchers whenever they’re here, where I can grab them on a wharf, and have a talk with them about what their findings are. I talked to Clinton Duffy, I talked to Kina Scollay. Kina, I actually did a charter with him many years ago in the Abel Tasman. And when I found out about his encounter -
CRAWFORD: You did a charter with him?
ATKINS: Well, he was chartering as well. He was crewing on a yacht that was chartering for the BBC when they were filming the sequel to 'Walking with Dinosaurs'. And I was chartering for the same company, with the water-taxi, to take people around. And that’s when I first met Kina Scollay, and found out about his Shark attack story.
CRAWFORD: At Chatham Islands?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. So, I think we’re going to put you at a High level, with regard to the Science knowledge system interactions. What are some of the most important things that you've learned from those scientists, specifically about White Pointers?
ATKINS: I talked to them about females, specifically large female encounters because of what I discussed before about the genes being different for this type of area. From what I can gather, I’ve never seen that many females over 5 metres, of breeding size. And I always ask them "How many females have you seen that were breeding size?" to try and back up that argument in my head. That these Sharks are coming here to breed, because the genes are different.
3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE
CRAWFORD: Back in the day, I’m told there was a general wariness for Sharks in the bays, both Horseshoe Bay and Halfmoon Bay. That if a Shark was seen, out go the nets. That the nets would serve potentially as a deterrent. But I’m also told that the nets were pretty effective at catching White Pointers as well. Does that ring a bell in terms of the general way of thinking back then?
ATKINS: Well, I haven’t heard people talking about that being what they used to do. I have heard one person mention to me about putting a chemical in the belly of a dead Cod, and dropping it over the side to try and kill the Shark. But I haven’t heard any more about that.
CRAWFORD: Ok. So, in terms of this community, a wider social norm regarding White Pointers - that you were aware about?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: Ok. There have been several people talking about Bathing Beach, and how the kids and families would go and swim there. And it would be normal that a kid would be designated to be the 'Sharkspotter.' Depending on the beach, go up to a vantage point, and keep an eye out for Sharks. Did you ever hear about that?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: That may have been before your day.
ATKINS: That may have been before my day, yes.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Is there anything else you can think of during your early days here?
ATKINS: No, not really. Not with Great White Sharks. I mean there was stories from Dad over a Sevengiller, experiences with them circling the boat while cleaning.
CRAWFORD: Ok. The next phase that you spent significant time around marine coastal waters was up around Tasman Bay, outside of the focal region for this the research project. But did you ever see any White Pointers up there?
ATKINS: No, no.
CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear of anybody seeing White Pointers up there?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: I'm guessing that’s the kind of area, and those would be the kind of people, that if White Pointers were seen, people would have talked about it?
ATKINS: Yeah. Tasman Bay is quite warm water. After I moved back here, I heard stories from people that came on a fishing trip with me, about Great Whites hanging round in bays in round D'Urville Island. That’s sort of the closest area I’ve ever heard anyone sort of mentioning that they’ve seen a Great White Shark.
CRAWFORD: Did you spend any time on the northwestern side of South Island?
ATKINS: Maybe a dozen times when I was fishing and diving recreationally on the west coast.
CRAWFORD: When it comes to the exposed northwestern shoreline of South Island, any reports of White Pointers along that stretch?
ATKINS: I hadn’t heard of any sightings. I was very aware though when I was diving, that I was diving in an area where you could potentially see them. I knew that they wouldn’t go so much into Tasman Bay because of the water temperature and the shallow water. But knowing that they came to Stewart Island, I knew they must pass through there at some point.
CRAWFORD: Ok. I’m interested in your reference to White Pointers avoiding shallow water and warm water. Was that common knowledge - that's what people said? Where did that knowledge come from?
ATKINS: It could have been a wives’ tale. But I was always told the reason why we didn’t see Great Whites specifically in Tasman Bay, was because the water was too warm. Whether it’s true or not, I don’t know.
CRAWFORD: Alright. So that basically summarizes anything you would have learned about White Pointers from your time in the northwestern region of South Island?
ATKINS: Yes
CRAWFORD: Ok. Getting back to the Stewart Island region, is there a time of year when you don’t see White Pointers, and a time when you do?
ATKINS: Generally, as far as seasonality goes, I normally see the first one sort of mid-December. Normally when I start seeing Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Is that because that’s when your business picks up?
ATKINS: No. Well I mean, obviously I’m out more when I’m busy. But I'm still way up and around the islands through the quiet times as well. And then normally ... the latest sighting has been July. Last year I lost one of my anchors out about where the Salmon Farm dump their morts, out round the corner there. This is slightly off-topic from what your line of questioning is ...
CRAWFORD: No, that’s fine. It may actually be very important.
ATKINS: I lost my anchor. I know where it is, I've got a mark for it. but I’m not out for it. Straight away I talked to a diver about going to get it. But I wasn’t willing to put him down there unless it was wintertime. Seven years ago, I would have dived for it myself. Not anymore. I wouldn’t have thought about it at the time in here. But not anymore.
CRAWFORD: Alright. Any idea about what might explain the White Pointers not being here for a big chunk of time, and then coming back?
ATKINS: Everyone talks about how it coincides with the Seals pupping. Those encounters, like when I've actually seen one take a Seal and that's it - obviously they must feed on Seals. But I think it doesn’t just coincide with the Seals. From what I’ve gathered, talking to the researchers, our population genes are different from the genes of the places where they crossover with other Sharks. Like Chatham Island Sharks come through Cook Strait to go to Australia. Our Sharks go to Australia also, but also head north to the Pacific islands. But they’ve identified that with the genes - that our Sharks here are separate genomes from the others.
CRAWFORD: What are some of the other important things that you've learned from those scientists, specifically about White Pointers?
ATKINS: I talked to them about females, specifically large female encounters, because of what I discussed before about the genes being different for this type of area. I’ve never seen that many females over five metres, of breeding size. And I always ask them how many females have you seen that were breeding size, to try and back up that argument in my head. That these Sharks are coming here to breed, because the genes are different.
CRAWFORD: Ok. So, there is some type of migration here. I think you mentioned already the DOC tagging programs in general. The Sharks are coming here, staying for a while, and then they’re leaving. It is in the nature of migratory animals that it is linked in some way to their ecology. But from the Titi Islands across the Pacific - that is a very long way!
ATKINS: Yeah. Thousands of miles.
CRAWFORD: What do you know about Shark reproduction generally, and reproduction of White Pointers specifically?
ATKINS: All I know is that females have to be that size before, and that the males are generally smaller fish. That’s as much as I know.
CRAWFORD: Do you know anything about courtship behaviour or anything like that?
ATKINS: No, no. But I have been told, I don’t know whether it’s the females or males, but you can see the bites on the bodies.
CRAWFORD: Mating wounds?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen any wounding or scarring on White Pointers?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: What kind?
ATKINS: Well, usually it’s up around sort of from the dorsal fin forward. I’ve seen lines on the necks of Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Lines or gashes?
ATKINS: Lines which are actually more gashes. Cuts, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Do you have any idea maybe what might be causing those lines or gashes?
ATKINS: No. But damage to the nose too.
CRAWFORD: What do you mean by 'damage'?
ATKINS: Well I assume it’s from hitting the cage, when they’re cage diving. I’ve seen damage right on the point of the Shark.
CRAWFORD: Do you know anything specific about DOC's tagging program with the White Pointers?
ATKINS: Nah. When I talk to these guys, it’s more out of my personal interest. But I’m also trying to get tidbits of information that I can try to talk to people about.
CRAWFORD: When you’re taking people out on eco-tours, or even when you’re just shuttling them back and forth ... what you described as hosting, that's part of the experience right?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: So especially when people know that Stewart Island and Titi Islands in particular are places where White Pointers are abundant, they ask you. And the more you know, the richer your interaction with them is?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Some of the people here on the Island were talking yesterday about DOC's hydroacoustic pingers for White Pointers at the mouth of Halfmoon Bay and the mouth of Patersen Inlet. Did you hear anything about that?
ATKINS: I heard tidbits that the one on this side, at the entrance to Patersen Inlet, had been damaged. But it had registered about 12 Sharks at the time that it was registering. Things like that. I may have even looked at their data.
CRAWFORD: Ok. With regards to the satellite tagging, have you ever seen tags on the Sharks you've seen?
ATKINS: Not satellite tags. I’ve seen the acoustic tags, I’ve seen the ID tags.
CRAWFORD: Ok. When you think about New Zealand as a whole, people know that Stewart Island is a hotspot for White Pointers?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: In a bigger context, in terms of both North and South Islands - where else do people think is a hotspot for White Pointers?
ATKINS: I know there are Shark sightings in North Island. I don’t specifically know where. Like I’ve heard of Shark attacks and things like that, but I don’t know where. For me, I always just tell people that this is the biggest population in New Zealand, and we talk about the migration of them.
CRAWFORD: When we were talking about migration, you had mentioned Chatham Islands? Is that another hotspot?
ATKINS: Yes. Well, I think that, because I know somebody who’s been attacked there. And I’ve heard stories being passed on about Shark sightings. I‘ve seen it on TV, of people trying to catch Sharks, or trying to see Sharks while they’re fishing.
CRAWFORD: That's an interesting point. Was there ever a recreational White Pointer fishery - to your knowledge?
ATKINS: No. Not that I know of. The guys going out and killing them on purpose because they were seen in the bay. They were pretty protective, you know? And Dad’s accidental catching when he was longlining. They are the only ones I know of.
CRAWFORD: And now, post-protection, it’s not illegal if you have a setnet but ...
ATKINS: Accidentally, yeah.
CRAWFORD: But it is illegal if you don’t report it.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Have you heard about people who, just on principle, shoot White Pointers?
ATKINS: No. I had been standing on the wharf when someone's come up to Peter Scott and asked him where he could buy the powerheads for divers, for protection. You know I think it was just to generate an argument. Which never actually happened, because Peter just told them where he could go buy one. And that was the crux of it.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That brings us back to scubadivers. You said before that you have experience scubadiving around Stewart Island?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Did that start when you came back from working up north?
ATKINS: No. That was on holiday down here.
CRAWFORD: Ok. In general, where had you been going to scubadive recreationally?
ATKINS: I never really did out round the Titi Islands then. Because, like I talked about earlier, we never had the boat suitable to go out there. So, mostly what I was doing was in close around Halfmoon Bay, Horseshoe Bay, maybe around the back of the Neck.
CRAWFORD: When you were scubadiving, were you recreational diving, or were you harvesting?
ATKINS: Just mainly looking for Crayfish. I’d done a bit of spearfishing with scuba, and some freediving for Pāua.
CRAWFORD: Right. In all of the time that you were diving, either freediving or scubadiving, did you ever see a White Pointer?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: But you also have significant knowledge, because you were chartering recreational divers for at least some period of time?
ATKINS: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Where did they want to go diving?
ATKINS: About the same. It was Horseshoe, Headland, down the east coast a little bit as far as Chew Tobacco Bay. And out at the islands.
CRAWFORD: And you did that for what, a couple of years?
ATKINS: A couple of years. We didn’t do big numbers in divers.
CRAWFORD: What kind of frequency? Two or three trips a season?
ATKINS: Maybe about six trips a season. We did more that was on the scuba side of things. Freediving we did more getting a feed of Pāua.
CRAWFORD: So, total maybe 10-20 per year?
ATKINS: Something like that, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Why did you stop chartering for dive trips?
ATKINS: I put it down to three reasons, why we stopped. We weren’t meeting people’s expectations as far as, especially Kiwis coming in here, going diving for Crayfish. It isn’t a great Crayfish spot. So, the hunting-gathering side of things weren’t as good as expectations were. And we were expected to provide gear for people, but we couldn’t justify it - based on the numbers of people we were chartering. And finally, my perception was, once I started seeing Sharks, I started to think "Well, is it really worth it at the end of the day?" Especially with the fact that in my mind I was associating anchors, boats, engines, and the Sharks.
CRAWFORD: So, it was a combination of factors. And one of the factors was safety risk management. Did you have any knowledge of anybody freediving or scubadiving here that had seen White Pointers?
ATKINS: There was the crew that many years ago were working for Dad - the one we talked about earlier that was Pāua diving?
CRAWFORD: Right. He was working for your Dad. Do you remember where the cage tour dives were operating, back at the beginning?
ATKINS: Yeah, they pretty much stuck to Edwards Island. With the exception of when that Shark was killed accidentally by Zane.
CRAWFORD: Right. Where did that happen?
ATKINS: That happened at Edwards Island. They say the Sharks all of a sudden stopped.
CRAWFORD: Who’s 'they'? The Islanders?
ATKINS: The cage dive operators. And that’s where the whole thing started off about "Was it done on purpose to disperse the Sharks?"
CRAWFORD: Do you think that a dead White Pointer carcass would have that effect on other White Pointers?
ATKINS: I never thought that would be possible. I always assumed that a Shark's a Shark. That they would eat their own species of Shark. And therefore, them having that sort of reaction to a dead Shark was quite strange to me. They seemed to think that yes, for a week, they never saw another Shark. I think I saw the operators, during that week, I think they were starting to go around the back of Bench Island. I'm trying to think of seeing them anywhere else. They might have tried off Herekopare. But predominantly, it was Edwards.
CRAWFORD: You’ve already described that if you’ve got a pelagic birdwatching trip, you might go in and around where the cage tour dive operations are. Are other people in and around the same place at the same time? Is it something that Islanders would take their friends who were visiting, out to see the White Pointers?
ATKINS: Some people are. Some people are very against it - they won’t on principle. There’s been visiting boats that have overheard all the controversy in the pub, and they’ve gone out to have a look for themselves. On two occasions, I have seen Pāua divers in the water when I’ve seen Sharks out there, and I’ve gone and warned them. Both occasions were at Edwards Island, but the cage divers weren’t operating.
CRAWFORD: Those would have been Islanders or come-from-aways? Those Pāua divers?
ATKINS: No, one of them was Zane.
CRAWFORD: Ok.
ATKINS: And the other one, I’m not sure where he came from. It was a boat that I’d seen before. So, they were commercial Pāua divers.
CRAWFORD: Right. As far as I know there’s nothing in law that would prevent anyone from taking a bunch of Cod frames or Tuna heads or even full fish out there, and throwing them overboard, in order to see the White Pointers. Is that something’s that done?
ATKINS: I think if locals are going to go out there with the purpose of seeing Sharks, they will have a go at using the berley - which is catching a feed of fish, and then go sit at that one spot.
CRAWFORD: Maybe locals. And maybe people from Bluff too?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: I realize this is before your time, but based on what you heard, was that type of berleying done prior to the cage tour dive operations?
ATKINS: It may well have been. But I hadn’t heard of people purposefully going out to see the Sharks, or feed the Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Last question in this section. What’s one thing that you think we need to know a hell of a lot more about these White Pointers?
ATKINS: There’s been every side of the arguments about why they’re here. I would put priority on knowing why they’re here.
CRAWFORD: You mean distinguishing between feeding and reproduction and anything else?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s fine, that’s good. Anything else about the behaviour of the White Pointers that we need to understand better?
ATKINS: No, not really. Just within regards of what’s happening around here.
4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES
CRAWFORD: Let’s broaden the scope a bit. You mentioned other people talked about Shark sightings. I’m interested in Shark sightings specifically in Halfmoon Bay and Horseshoe Bay. When you were a kid, did you ever see a White Pointer in the wild?
ATKINS: After we left Stewart Island, we pretty much came back every year, with my Grandparents living on the Island. We also had a holiday home down here. The only other Shark encounter that I had was when we saw a rather large Shark from the plane - basically off Bragg's Bay, which is the beach next to where I grew up. So, that was sighted from the plane. It actually made the news, I think. And you may have already heard stories about the one, where they went out with a net and caught it.
CRAWFORD: You only saw one Shark when you were in the plane?
ATKINS: One Shark. And it was a big Shark.
CRAWFORD: Was it in close?
ATKINS: It was right in against Bragg's Bay. Hard in against the coast.
CRAWFORD: It would be very interesting to get the perspective of the pilots that make that flight as a regular run.
ATKINS: Yes. The pilot on the day was actually my Uncle, and he's flying out of Dunedin now. But Stewart Island Flights, talk to Raymond - he's the owner now. From before that, Phil Cane would be the one to talk to.
CRAWFORD: In the present period, since 2009, when you were based out of Stewart Island - have you seen White Pointers in the wild?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Where was the first place that you remember seeing a White Pointer?
ATKINS: I think my first Great White sighting, not sure whether it was my first or second season, was out at Bunker Island. Every year since, I’ve seen Sharks. Main areas I’ve seen them is Bunker, Edwards, Herekopare, and in between. Out near Fish Rock, I’ve seen Sharks out there. Since my start I’ve seen about four Great Whites up in Halfmoon Bay.
CRAWFORD: Ok, we’ll focus on those in a bit. For fish that you've seen out among the Titi Islands over the last seven years, roughly how many fish would you have seen there during that period?
ATKINS: Maybe 40.
CRAWFORD: What would have been the nature of your business when you were out there? Would you have been travelling through, or fishing there, or doing something else?
ATKINS: Almost all of our encounters have involved when we’ve been fishing.
CRAWFORD: So, while you were drifting or anchored?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And you had lines in the water?
ATKINS: Yes. We’ve had a couple encounters, let’s say five encounters, when we’ve been cleaning. When we’ve been filleting the fish.
CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]. Of the roughly 40 sightings, what would you figure would be the distribution across those Levels?
ATKINS: Think we’ve had about maybe five Swim-bys. The bulk of our encounters have been circling the boat, so maybe another 25-30 circling the boat. And maybe 10 encounters where they’ve actually mouthed the back of the boat.
CRAWFORD: They what?
ATKINS: Grabbed the back of the boat.
CRAWFORD: Really?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That to me would be Level 4.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: When was the first time that a White Pointer mouthed the back of your boat?
ATKINS: That was maybe three years ago. I was actually doing a bird-watching trip.
CRAWFORD: You weren’t fishing at the time?
ATKINS: No, we weren’t fishing at all. Part of our trip is we give them a cuppa tea at some point stop. We were just looking for Albatross and any other pelagic species of bird. I had offered to take them near the cage diving boats to potentially see the Sharks. I had dropped anchor; maybe would have been 50 yards of the cage diving boat. We’re having a cuppa tea, and the Shark came up, and grabbed the back of the boat, and shook the boat.
CRAWFORD: Okay, so you’ve introduced a new factor. This was a non-fishing trip out in the Titi Islands, about three years ago?
ATKINS: Edwards. Edwards Island.
CRAWFORD: Right. You were there, and the Shark cage tour dive vessel came in?
ATKINS: They were already there. They were already doing their business.
CRAWFORD: Ok. This was midday or afternoon?
ATKINS: It was afternoon. Not late afternoon, but it was an afternoon trip.
CRAWFORD: Alright. And when you had tea, how long had you been anchored there before you saw the Shark?
ATKINS: About three or four minutes. I was literally making the cuppa tea when it happened.
CRAWFORD: So, you were busy with that. But did you or the other eyes on board see any circling behaviour before the Shark grabbed your boat? Anything like that?
ATKINS: Possibly. If we go there, we’re always going to see Sharks. So, I've got eyes on the water, looking round to see. But we don’t get that 'Jaws' moment where the fin breaks the water. When we see them, we’re looking into the water to see the Shark. So possibly we would have seen him, at a glimpse underwater, first. It was to be expected that we were going to see a Shark. It wasn’t very much expected that the Shark was going to grab the boat!
CRAWFORD: Ok. You saw the Shark maybe three or four minutes after you got there?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: How long after you saw the Shark that it started to mouth or clamp down on the stern of the boat?
ATKINS: Oh, it was literally straight away. It may have done one pass and circle, and then came right up to the transom of the boat, grabbed the auxiliary bracket of the boat. There’s a little metal and wooden bracket on the back where I can mount my spare motor. And it grabbed hold of that, and shook, shook.
CRAWFORD: Grabbed the bracket, and shook laterally?
ATKINS: Yep. It shook the whole boat.
CRAWFORD: What happened then?
ATKINS: From memory, I’m pretty sure ... just trying not to get my encounters mixed up ... but I think it came back and had a second go. But as it got closer to the boat, it turned away, and its tail fin slapped the back of the motor. It shunted the boat forward.
CRAWFORD: So, that’s definitely a Level 4.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Alright. Then what happened?
ATKINS: Nothing. Just the usual sightings of Sharks under the water.
CRAWFORD: Do you think that animal in particular continued to circle round your boat? Or did it bugger off?
ATKINS: We were pretty much in the berley zone. If you're in that zone, they'll take interest in what you’re doing, but then they’ll move off again into the berley trail towards the cage operation.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Had you gone into the berley zone specifically to see a White Pointer?
ATKINS: We had anchored close to them, and obviously if you anchor downstream you’ve got more chance of sighting them. It wasn’t a Shark trip, it was a pelagic birdwatching trip. As a break I had offered them the chance to see a Great White, so I went close enough to the cage diving operation to see the Great White.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Please refresh my memory, what percentage of those interactions were Level 3 Interest? Was that 80 percent?
ATKINS: Yeah, I would say.
CRAWFORD: Circling?
ATKINS: Just circling, yes.
CRAWFORD: Inquisitiveness. And that incident was a Level 4 encounter. How many other Level 4s do you think you’ve had?
ATKINS: I might have said ten, but I reckon it’s more like five, now that I’m thinking about it. Five encounters where they’ve actually come into direct contact.
CRAWFORD: Whereabouts for those other Level 4s?
ATKINS: They’ve all been at Edwards Island.
CRAWFORD: And of those, how many have been when you were in close proximity to the cage tour dive operations.
ATKINS: I think all. Possibly one of them was just after they had gone. So, we were there ten minutes after they had left, and we had that encounter again.
CRAWFORD: But that’s still sort of during the general period for the cage boat ...
ATKINS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My explanation to the people was always "They’re in a bit of a feeding frenzy." And I noticed if I leave the engine running as well, that seems to get a reaction during that time.
CRAWFORD: What do you mean?
ATKINS: If I leave the motor running.
CRAWFORD: Ok. If you didn’t have the motor running, would you still get circling behaviour?
ATKINS: Yes definitely, still. Definitely.
CRAWFORD: So, if you leave the motor running, then what?
ATKINS: A more aggressive ... I mean, I don’t know the science behind it, I don’t know whether it’s true. But I was always told that the electrical current given off, especially by outboards, can get Sharks to become more aggressive.
CRAWFORD: Outboard versus inboard motors - was there any opinion about the difference between them?
ATKINS: No. I think people just referenced it as a motor thing. I have limited experience with inboard engines, and big engines. As far as down here goes, and interacting with Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Right. But you’ve got about five Level 4 encounters with your boat and its outboard motor?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And you’ve noticed that when the motor’s on there’s a higher probability or having a Level 4 encounter, than just motor off and some circling behaviour?
ATKINS: Yeah. I’ve also noticed that originally with my circling encounters, we would be fishing for quite some time. You know, a little bit of blood going into the water - most of my catch stays on the boat. I don’t do any of the gutting or cleaning, until we stop fishing.
CRAWFORD: Let’s pause for a second. You’re talking about charter fishing trips now?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: The other times, when you went in proximity of the cage tour dive operations - was that simply you being there? Or were you fishing there in proximity to the cage dive operations?
ATKINS: Sometimes it was a case of fishing there. I try not to, because I know there’s a chance of Shark encounter where we’re fishing. Anytime we have a Shark encounter, I get everyone to pull the lines up - not because I don’t want the Sharks grabbing the fish. I don’t want the Sharks to get entangled in the lines, especially if we’re using braided fishing line. So, we stop fishing when we see Sharks. I don’t intentionally try and fish in areas with these Sharks around. But some days, when you get out there and the weather permits you only to go to Edwards Island, and there’s cage diving operations there, we’ll try to stay upstream of them. So, we’re not in the berley trail when we try to fish. I differ slightly from other charter operators. Because it’s just me, and I’ve got a small fishing space, I don’t fillet during the fishing. Not much blood going into the water at all while we’re fishing, other than the odd fish getting chucked back. After fishing, I stop and then I do all the messy stuff. So, the encounters I've had aren’t necessarily because I have a lot of messy stuff going into the water.
CRAWFORD: I understand. But in some cases, you’re already in the berley trail anyways?
ATKINS: In some cases, yeah.
CRAWFORD: In other cases, you're upstream of the berley trail?
ATKINS: Yeah. Obviously people ask about seeing Sharks, and if you’re out there in that vicinity, and you’ve had enough fishing, or you’ve got a little bit of time up your sleeve, you go and have a cuppa tea next to the cage dive boat, so that people can see a Shark.
CRAWFORD: Right. A couple of very specific questions, for the times that you've gone out Edwards Island. Specifically, when you’re not doing anything other than watching birds or having tea, do you still get Sharks coming to the boat?
ATKINS: No. I have seen Sharks on birdwatching trips, because we’ve been anchored and close to the Seal colonies, looking at the Seals and Penguins. I have seen Sharks just under the surface, around 20 metres from the boat. On very rare occasions.
CRAWFORD: But see that’s a Level 1 Observation, right?
ATKINS: Yes. That’s what I was talking about with the five encounters, when they’ve been passing.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Now I’m particularly focusing on you being in that region - Titi Islands generally, Edwards Island specifically - when no cage dive operations were happening, AND no fishing on your part. So, just your boat doing your thing, without anything like berley. Have you made White Pointer observations under those conditions?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Just low-level Observation or Swim-Bys?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: No outright aggression, Level 4 behaviour, when you’re just out there with no Shark cage dives and no fishing?
ATKINS: Right.
CRAWFORD: If you’re out there by yourself, and you are fishing, do you get circling behaviour by the White Pointers?
ATKINS: We do get circling behaviour. I started about the time that the cage dive operators started. We had those encounters when we were fishing - after an hour or so, we have a Shark come up to the boat, circle the boat a couple of times. I’ve noticed over the years that I’m starting to get less of those encounters away from Edwards Island. I can be dropping anchor, and leave the motor running, and the Shark will come to the boat - without us even having any bait in the water. That’s my observation. Some people think it’s because I’m against the cage dive operators, but to be honest - up until last year, I had quite a good relationship with one of the cage dive operators. I would still talk to him. We used to do transfers for people who, for whatever reason, hadn’t made it to catch the boat when it departed, and we would take them out. I stopped doing that because there was too much risk involved with transferring people with Sharks swimming around the boat. So, yeah to me - if you go to Edwards Island without chucking a bait in the water, you drop your anchor, and leave your engine running - you have got quite a high chance of seeing a Shark.
CRAWFORD: If you go to Edwards Island, you drop your anchor and turn your motor off ...
ATKINS: You leave your engine running.
CRAWFORD: But I’m asking about if your turn your motor off - what are your chances of seeing a White Pointer?
ATKINS: Yeah. It’s hard to say.
CRAWFORD: Medium chance?
ATKINS: Medium chance, yeah.
CRAWFORD: But a higher chance if you’ve got the motor running?
ATKINS: Basically, you’re replicating what the cage dive operators are doing. Dropping anchor, which is what they do when they get there. And your engine running.
CRAWFORD: That’s part of what they do. They also do other things with berley and throw baits.
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: When you were doing pelagic birdwatching, when you were doing non-fishing charters, without the cage tour dive operations happening - I think you said before that if you were in proximity to a Seal colony during pupping season, you've seen White Pointers in proximity as well ?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Level 1 observations?
ATKINS: Yeah. Maybe five or so times.
CRAWFORD: Individual Sharks or groups of Sharks?
ATKINS: Individual Sharks.
CRAWFORD: What types of behaviour did you notice, if anything?
ATKINS: They're on the surface. Actually, one time it was the 'Jaws' moment - it was just 20 metres off the boat. The fin and the tail were actually breaking the surface. And that was the only encounter - he was gone.
CRAWFORD: Was that an attack on a Seal, do you figure?
ATKINS: No, no. Well, I didn’t see any remains. And just so you know, I’ve only ever seen one attack on a Seal in all my sightings.
CRAWFORD: And you’ve got a total of White Pointer sightings up to about 50?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Describe that single attack on a Seal. Where did it take place?
ATKINS: It was off Bench Island. And it was quite a way off. Well, maybe half a mile offshore from the island. In the deep water.
CRAWFORD: Really?
ATKINS: Yeah
CRAWFORD: Over what, maybe 30-40 metres?
ATKINS: Ah no. It would have been sort of 20-25 metres deep.
CRAWFORD: Ok. But definitely offshore?
ATKINS: Offshore yes. About half a mile or so.
CRAWFORD: So, it was not close by the island?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: Was this during pupping season?
ATKINS: Yeah, it was actually quite late in the season. It was probably about April. This was last year.
CRAWFORD: What did you see?
ATKINS: I just saw the Shark come up underneath the Seal, and take the Seal. We went back to the site, and there was lots of mess on the water, you know? Blood and blubber. And then nothing of the Shark. I didn’t get to see the size of the Seal. I just saw the big splash, and then the Shark was gone. You could see the oily slick quite easily on the water.
CRAWFORD: This stands out for you. Had you been watching that Seal already? Or what were you doing at the time?
ATKINS: Seals will catch my eye, because you quite often see them offshore. I think that these Sharks have to prey further offshore because the surrounding waters off our islands are very shallow. Only 5-6 metres deep, directly from the Seal colonies. So, to get that attack, they have to go further offshore to get that ...
CRAWFORD: To get under?
ATKINS: Yeah. And come up and be able to get the surprise attack. That just reminded me, not far from that same spot, I saw a Great White on a birdwatching trip - we were feeding the Mollymawks some Cod frames, scraps.
CRAWFORD: You were trying to bring in the big pelagic birds?
ATKINS: Yeah. When we do that, we feed away, but very little actually goes into the water column. The birds are actually taking the frames and swallowing them in the air. On this occasion, we were surrounded by about a hundred birds, around the boat.
CRAWFORD: Where were you?
ATKINS: Out at Bench Island, again. Next to a place called Flat Rock, it’s another rock just off Bench Island. And we were feeding on one side, and there was a big stoush on the other side, and the Shark had come up and taken an Albatross.
CRAWFORD: Taken an Albatross?
ATKINS: Yes. I’ve heard other people say they’ve seen it happen before. They’ve also seen Sharks taking Albatross, take them down, and then let them go.
CRAWFORD: But you saw this.
ATKINS: Well, I just saw the big splash as the tail came over like that. But it was literally right next to the boat.
CRAWFORD: Did you have people that were on board, taking pictures at the time?
ATKINS: Yes, but no one got a photo because we were feeding on this side, and the Shark happened on that side.
CRAWFORD: And that was at Bench Island?
ATKINS: Bench Island, yep. Everyone talks about how Bench was always a hotspot for Sharks. Including those two encounters, I’ve had five sightings around Bench.
CRAWFORD: Five sightings around Bench, a bunch around Edwards, ...
ATKINS: Maybe another five around Herekopare, and another five around Bunker and the reef area.
CRAWFORD: Those are all part of the northern Titi Island chain?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Have you ever had any White Pointer sightings along the shoreline of Stewart Island itself?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?
ATKINS: The first one was a small White, it was about 8:00 in the morning. It was off Horseshoe Point, heading out of Halfmoon Bay, heading north up the coastline. Actually, one of the dive spots I used to use for recreational divers. I saw a smaller Great White leap straight out of the water.
CRAWFORD: When you say 'smaller' - what would that be, roughly?
ATKINS: About three metres. Three metres is the smallest I normally see. Straight out of the water. The only thing I can assume he was doing was taking a Penguin, because there’s no Seal colony there.
CRAWFORD: Is there a Penguin rookery?
ATKINS: Yes, there are Penguins here.
CRAWFORD: Little Blues, or Yellow-Eyed, or what?
ATKINS: Little Blues, and then during the season there’s Fiordland Crested as well.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Putting a marker on that reference to recreational diving, where else along the Stewart Island shoreline have you seen White Pointers?
ATKINS: So, there was that one. There’s been last year, we saw one in Harrold’s Bay which is right in Halfmoon Bay. For whatever reason, the weather or whatever it was, I came into that bay to clean up. Now, when I clean up in sites where I think people may potentially go in the water, I don’t throw anything over the side. I gut the fish, and I keep the frames that I’ve got. Another boat, what we call a 'cribby' boat - a summer holiday home, that has a boat in here - came and did the same thing next to me. But they were discharging frames over the side. And a Shark came into the bay. Shallow, like five metres of water.
CRAWFORD: And it came in as fish frames were going overboard from the other boat?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember what the Shark did?
ATKINS: Just the usual gander. It just circled, and then gone again.
CRAWFORD: You didn’t see ...
ATKINS: I didn’t see it picking up any frames off the bottom or anything like that. But at the time, whenever we do this, we’ve got Albatross at the back of the boat, and a good 99% of what we’re discharging - so if we’re filleting, and say there’s a frame from a good fillet every minute going over the back, the Albatross is picking them up. But that’s not stopping blood, a blood trail getting into the water from the frames as well. So, the recreational boat came alongside me at the wharf, and asked me if we saw that encounter. I talked to him about it, and he made a point of saying "Oh, I’ve never seen that before in Halfmoon Bay." And he tried to blame the cage tour dive operators. And I made a point of saying "Well, hang on. We’ve got to take responsibility for what we’re doing, as far as what we’re discharging off the boat, as well." So, there was that one there in Harrold’s Bay. I’ve seen two right on Ackers Point. And these are areas where I used to recreationally myself, spearfish. I don’t anymore. I've had three or four sightings in that area.
CRAWFORD: Right. Sightings from the surface.
ATKINS: Yeah, from the surface. Touch wood, I’ve never seen a Great White in the water. I’ve seen other Sharks, but not a Great White.
CRAWFORD: There are a couple of things again. Every time you tell a story there are two other questions that come up. With regards to Cod frames, my understanding is that especially back in the day, you stopped at one of the protected bays on the way back to port, you dressed your fish, the frames go down, and they were gone the next day.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Maybe the tide was taking care of it ...
ATKINS: Or something was cleaning them up.
CRAWFORD: Right. And some of the experienced people I've talked to have said “If I knew then, what I know now - I probably wouldn’t have done that.”
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: “I would have stayed further out for fish cleaning.” Maybe outside of Halfmoon Bay entirely.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Alright, in terms of beaches and water depth, things like that. Have you noticed any patterns seeing White Pointers, with regard to habitat type?
ATKINS: The nature of our coastline, generally it’s thick. High tide line, thick Kelp, and then dropping off with sand. So, the nature of our coastline, you’re not going to see them in a mass of Kelp. They just don’t do that, you know? A lot of times when we’re Pāua diving and things like that, if you get outside of that area, you dive back into the Kelp because you feel much safer in amongst the Kelp.
CRAWFORD: That’s an important observation. It’s as much where they are not, as where they are.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: So, you definitely do not associate White Pointers with Kelp beds?
ATKINS: No. I’ve seen - this was another Level 1 encounter - I seen one on the surface in Paterson Inlet.
CRAWFORD: I was going to ask about Patterson Inlet specifically, so please hold onto that one.
ATKINS: Yeah. I’ll try and remember.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Finishing with Halfmoon and Horseshoe Bays. When you've see White Pointers in these bays, or when you've heard about them there, were they single animals or multiple animals?
ATKINS: Single. Very rarely, I think I’ve only on a couple of occasions away from Edwards Island have I seen Sharks together.
CRAWFORD: In those cases, where were you?
ATKINS: I think the one where I saw two Sharks together was Bench Island.
CRAWFORD: Were they just cruising?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Were they about the same size? Did you good look at them?
ATKINS: They weren’t big Sharks. They were reasonably the same size.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Now let's talk about Paterson Inlet. Did the old-timers ever say anything about White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?
ATKINS: Not to my knowledge, but because of the age when I left Stewart Island, I don’t have much memory from that era.
CRAWFORD: From your personal experience, have you ever seen White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?
ATKINS: One encounter, I’m pretty sure. I can’t 100% say that it was a Great White. Fact is, I thought it was a Dolphin. I saw a fin break the surface in shallow water. I turned the boat around to go look at it, and there was no sighting after that, which is unusual because if it was a Dolphin, you’d see it come back up, somewhere, at some point. So, I was thinking that because of the size of it, the size of the fin, it was a Great White.
CRAWFORD: Where were you, and when was this?
ATKINS: I was just down from Golden Bay, heading towards the mouth of Paterson inlet, towards the Ringaringa Passage. Just between Deep Bay and Ringaringa Passage, a little bay there.
CRAWFORD: How many years ago?
ATKINS: That one was two summers ago, I think.
CRAWFORD: In the middle of the summer?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: That’s the only time you’ve seen what may have been a White Pointer in Paterson Inlet?
ATKINS: Yeah.
5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS
CRAWFORD: In terms of your early days here at Stewart Island, from 5-9 years old, do you remember any experiences or hearing about White Pointers during that early phase?
ATKINS: The only experience I had was ... I’m not sure how old I was, I think I might have been around 4 or 5 when my Father was longlining for School Shark. And they had two Great Whites that were stripping the lines - basically biting the Sharks off the hook. And they became entangled in the longline. They basically were dead when they went to pick up the line. I’m told that us kids were actually on the boat when they picked up the line. The Sharks got dragged backwards and drowned. Entangled in quite a lot of line, tail to tail. One was 19-foot long, and the other one was 14-foot. They were towed back to Halfmoon Bay, and hauled up on the beach where we lived - at Butterfield’s Beach. The meat was processed, and the jaws were removed and teeth were removed. Dad has stories of other Shark experiences with Great Whites from his fishing days. But that’s the only one that I was directly sort of involved with.
CRAWFORD: And this was right on the edge of it being your direct experience, combined with knowledge that was passed on?
ATKINS: Yes. Because of my age. Recently my Dad passed away, a few years ago. I met the crew that was on board that day, who I hadn’t seen since then. And he gave me a few more photos and told me a bit more. Filled in a few more gaps in the story.
CRAWFORD: Do you have any idea roughly where your Dad would have been longlining when they caught those two White Pointers?
ATKINS: I think it was round Ruapuke Island, out in the middle of the Strait. We were told it was about a two-hour steam, which would probably make it about there. And that it took them about five hours to steam home towing these Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Was that a summertime fishery - your Dad long-lining?
ATKINS: I don’t know much about the commercial side of that Sharking. I think it would be a summer job. My Mother would clear that up, tell me the date to be precise.
CRAWFORD: Right. Well, that’s an excellent example of a first memory. What other kinds of things might you have heard about White Pointers when you were a kid during those early days? Did the old-timers ever tell stories about the Sharks, and what they did, and where they went?
ATKINS: The only one I can remember actually involves that crew member who I caught up with a couple of years ago. Dad was also doing Abalone diving, Pāua diving - and he saw a Great White, was chased out. He scampered up the coastline, up over the kelp, and out of the water. Apparently, he didn’t go in the water for about another week after that. That’s pretty much the only other memory. There’s lots of little bits about sightings, people mentioning sightings, you know. My Grandad would have mentioned sightings.
CRAWFORD: When your Dad was Pāua diving that time, would he have been on the northeast side of Stewart Island?
ATKINS: Could have been anywhere, right round Stewart Island. I don’t know where it was.
CRAWFORD: Alright. When you say ‘chased out’ - was that him seeing, and then being prudent and leaving the water?
ATKINS: Yes, that’s what it was.
CRAWFORD: Or was the animal kind of imposing or aggressive?
ATKINS: No. It was him reacting to seeing a large Great White in the water. He was about 6-foot-4, and they always recount the story that he ran across the top of the kelp with his gear on. [chuckles]
CRAWFORD: [laughs] And that’s not because he was Jesus of Nazareth either?
ATKINS: No. [laughs]
CRAWFORD: What about other people? What have they said about White Pointers, if anything?
ATKINS: I have heard stories of them being seen. Arthur White who has a yacht called the Elwing, he takes school kids out. I heard a story of him seeing one up here in North Arm in Paterson Inlet. And it followed the boat.
CRAWFORD: Followed his yacht?
ATKINS: No, they tender from the yacht. Just a small dinghy, with kids in it.
CRAWFORD: That would have been roughly when?
ATKINS: I think that was two seasons ago. Arthur’s actually here at the moment.
CRAWFORD: He responded to my inquiry already. But if you see him, please let him know.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: What other kinds of observations have you heard about?
ATKINS: I’ve just heard general rumours around the village about Sharks being seen behind a kayak. About Sharks being seen in Watercress Bay, where I tie this boat up. But nothing really confirmed.
CRAWFORD: Any reports of Shark-kayak interactions?
ATKINS: I did hear a rumour, maybe three years ago, about a Shark that followed a kayak.
CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?
ATKINS: In Paterson Inlet here. But I can’t confirm that.
CRAWFORD: Have you heard of anyone else having encounters with White Pointers in this region?
ATKINS: I heard a few years ago that there was some recreational Oyster diving up the coast. You know when you’re Oyster diving you’re up to half-a-mile off the coast, 25 metres of water. So, you’re in open water.
CRAWFORD: Exposed 360 degrees?
ATKINS: Yeah, yeah. And they had a Great White circle them on the bottom.
CRAWFORD: Really?
ATKINS: Yeah. I can’t confirm that as actually being true, but that is the story I heard.
CRAWFORD: Where was that, roughly?
ATKINS: I think that must have been about four years ago. And I think, I may be wrong, but they may have been part of the Otago Dive Club.
6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS
CRAWFORD: In terms of your first memory of Shark cage tour dive operations here, you already said when you started about seven years ago - that was approximately when they were starting their operations. First one, then two operations, the only two operations in New Zealand. Operating in a relatively confined space, even prior to the permits. And back in the day, there weren’t any constraints on location. They were berleying, but it’s expensive to feed the fish as well, so from a business point of view ....
ATKINS: Yeah. I always thought that those Tuna nuggets they chuck out must be expensive. But you’ve got people paying $600 per person, and that’s part of the cost. If you can make as much money off sitting in one place, it’s always going to be a good business. The fact that I never went into cage diving is just because for one, I knew I wouldn’t be able to live in this community; and two, I would have a conscience if anything happened during or after - with regards to anyone on this coastline getting attacked.
CRAWFORD: Alright. Let’s characterize what they’re actually doing. Some people on the mainland, they feel that the cage tour dive operators did, at a high level in some cases ...
ATKINS: Feed the Sharks.
CRAWFORD: And they think the operators still do actually feed the White Pointers.
ATKINS: Yeah. My observations were: I’ve been sitting there, they tie a Tuna on a throw rope with a ball, throw it out. They may get it away from the Shark, but much of the time the Sharks will have caught it. And I can see a string of maybe five or six tails on that one piece of rope. Which means that the Shark’s had a go. I've sat there and watched them do one, and the Shark's picked it up. Also, luring straight toward the cage, bringing the Sharks in to the cage. Yeah, losing the Tuna, Shark's obviously got it, grabbing another one, tie it on, chuck it out. They might get three or four goes out of it, chucking it out and bringing it back in.
CRAWFORD: You’ve got a set of observations over the years. Last year was the first year of the current permit. So, the operators might have changed their behaviour at some point - just business, or for effectiveness, or they might have changed it specifically last year, because of conditions under the new permit. In the permit conditions now, it says they have to do everything they can to make sure that the Sharks don’t get the throw bait. But that if it does happen, they are required to record when it happens.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. So, in general terms of operation, the boat arrives, anchors, berley goes in the water, cage goes in the water, people go in the cage, throw bait's used to bring the White Pointers in close, people take their pictures. They’re on station for 4-5 hours, then lift the cage and go home.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Do you think that operation, as we just described, that has an important effect on the White Pointers?
ATKINS: Yes. I think it’s modifying their behaviour, because of the association with dropping anchor, leaving the engine running, putting the cage in the water, berleying, feeding.
CRAWFORD: You’re talking about association with a whole bunch of different stimuli there. Some people don't think these fish are capable of that kind of complexity - the association with one set of cues, much less multiple cues.
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: In the first place then, let's say we had the ability to search for the presence of White Pointers at Edwards Island, even without any boats being present. Do you think that there would be more White Pointers at the location simply because they had associated the smell of berley with the location, rather than any other location around the Titi islands or Stewart Island?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: Okay, let’s add one more factor, let’s talk about a boat. Let’s say we have the ability to get a boat over there but without a motor. Do you think that the White Pointers would associate berley with that boat on the surface? Would that be the association?
ATKINS: No. Not without the motor, and without the anchor. I don’t think they would.
CRAWFORD: Okay, you’re the first person that has really focused in on the anchor. The boat arrives, it drops anchor, the smell of berley. Do you think the White Pointers associate the sound of the boat arriving and anchoring with the berley?
ATKINS: Yeah. To me if they’re associating the boat with food, then an anchor and the winch going ching-ching-ching in the water is a dinner bell. I have been out there, and I have not put a single thing in the water - I’ve dropped anchor, I’ve left the engine running, and the Sharks come to me.
CRAWFORD: Have you ever dropped anchor ...
ATKINS: And not left the engine running?
CRAWFORD: Yeah.
ATKINS: Yes. But that occasion, what happened was again, it was another bird-watching trip and the cage diving boat had just left. I pulled in, dropped anchor, was making a cuppa tea, and I said to them, "Cage diving boat’s gone, we’re probably not going to see a Shark now." I had a woman puking over the side, and she saw a Great White come under the boat.
CRAWFORD: Horizontally, not up?
ATKINS: Not up, no. Horizontally. [chuckles]
CRAWFORD: If it was coming straight up, she would have been doing more than puking. [both laugh] Ok. Asked and answered. Because you already said that you think the motor operating - electromagnetically or the sounds - is a strong cue for association?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: So, even prior to the berley, it’s the sound or electromagnetic feel that would cause them to come to the boat after the association is made?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Now let’s talk about the cage. Do you think that the White Pointers associate berley with the cage? If we went out and simply put a cage there now, let’s say we could just air lift a cage, would the animals have associated the smell of berley with the cage, so if you only have the cage you’d still get the attractions?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: What about the Humans in the cage?
ATKINS: Really for me, it is literally a gut feel - there’s no science behind what I’m saying. But I don’t think that those Sharks can associate the things inside the cage.
CRAWFORD: Do you think that they might get some sense, but wouldn’t have a clear sense that it was a Human in there because it’s a metal mesh thing?
ATKINS: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Some other people have said that. Other people have said that when you’re in the cage, and you see that eye moving past you, you get the distinct feeling that eye is looking at you as a Human. And it knows what it's looking at.
ATKINS: That’s not an interaction I’ve had. I’ve never been in the water with a Great White. I have seen Great Whites swim past, and the eye follow a little bit. I’ve swum with Whale Sharks and Whales, and had that same interaction with the eye following.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Over the last seven years or so, have you noticed an increase in White Pointer interactions with boats that are putting fish smell or fish frames in the water?
ATKINS: I don’t think there’s been an increase. Because our interactions, they’re not lasting. The Shark's not going stay with us the whole time. Originally, we’d get out there, we'd be fishing for an hour, whatever Shark comes around the boat - and it would stop around us for 30 minutes max. Most of my interactions nowadays are before any of that happens. We have the same interactions, but without the fishing. So, it’s an interaction straight away. It’s a boat interaction.
CRAWFORD: Right. Let's talk about people. Has there been an increase in the interaction between White Pointers and Humans on or in the water? Swimmers? Boarders? Surfers?
ATKINS: No.
CRAWFORD: There’s a fear ...
ATKINS: There is a fear. And I think because of the fear, there is less people interaction.
CRAWFORD: Less people out on or in the water?
ATKINS: Well, it wasn’t uncommon to have people diving out round the Islands, which it is now.
CRAWFORD: Are the White Pointers poking around bathing beaches more?
ATKINS: Not more, no. I mean you’ve already picked up on the story when everyone started talking about the Sharks, it was almost like a Pied Piper situation there. Peter was coming back to the bay, the Shark was following him, and he called the wharf to warn them.
CRAWFORD: Alright, so following behaviour. Association between the berley and any one or more of those cues is one type of possible effect. Association with the boat or the motor - if that boat moves from the cage dive location, it’s possible that the association moves with it, and that the associating Shark follows. Do you think that White Pointers follow boats in general, regardless of any associations?
ATKINS: Other than hearing that story, there has been maybe two occasions where I’ve been at the cage diving site while the cage diving’s been happening. I haven’t been anchored, I’ve motored around, so I’d be downstream of the boat just repositioning. And as I’m moving round, someone’s looked out the back and the Shark has actually been following my boat.
CRAWFORD: Ok. But following is a distance thing. Let's say following for 500 metres, or something like that?
ATKINS: Well no, our interactions are sort of from here to that other boat.
CRAWFORD: On the order of 50-100 metres?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. For the rest of this discussion, when we talk about following, let’s put it at 500 metres. Something that’s substantial.
ATKINS: Ok.
CRAWFORD: Do you know of any instances, or have you heard of instances of that kind of following behaviour? 500 metres plus?
ATKINS: Only one I’ve heard of, but haven’t seen was Peter Scott coming in to the wharf at Halfmoon Bay.
CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of the fishing boats coming in, the Cod boats or the other recreational fishing charters that might have done some cleaning or whatever?
ATKINS: I haven’t heard of any.
CRAWFORD: Do people think that these following behaviours are happening?
ATKINS: The perception is yes, once you hear that story. It all gets blown out of proportion. Everything goes to the extreme version. And people are worried about Sharks following boats.
CRAWFORD: Ok. What do you know about that specific following story?
ATKINS: Well, that was as much as I heard. That he was returning ...
CRAWFORD: 'He' being Peter?
ATKINS: Peter Scott, in the Argo, returning from cage diving at Edwards. I’m not sure for how long it would have been following him, but obviously it was long enough for him to be concerned to bring to the wharf. And I don’t 100% know if this story is true.
CRAWFORD: What does the story say, whether it’s true or not?
ATKINS: The story says that he had that much concern over the Shark following him to the bay, that he called to make sure there was no kids swimming off the wharf.
CRAWFORD: And you identified something that I don't think anybody else did. You said "I don’t know how long that Shark had been following him."
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Peter said when he motored back from Edwards Island to Halfmoon Bay ...
ATKINS: That’s a long time.
CRAWFORD: It’s a 40-minute trip or so, at relatively high speed. And he thought it would have to have been an exceptional Shark ...
ATKINS: That’s not high speed. Forty minutes from there to here is not high speed. He’d tell you what his boat speed is. I don’t know what a Shark’s capable of, but 6-8 knots I would imagine a Shark is capable of doing.
CRAWFORD: For a sustained period of time, over that distance?
ATKINS: Well ...
CRAWFORD: We don’t know.
ATKINS: Yeah, we don’t know.
CRAWFORD: It's hard to say. Did he pick up that Shark at Edwards, or in open water, or even within Halfmoon Bay?
ATKINS: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Is there anything else that you have heard from other people about possible effects of Shark cage tour dive operations on the behaviour of the White Pointers? In terms of affecting the level of aggression, affecting the likelihood of the animals to go different places or do different things?
ATKINS: No, I think mostly what people talk about is association.
CRAWFORD: Would it be fair to say that the association effect is limited in geographic scope to the Titi islands area? Or when the White Pointers move away from this region, do they take that effect with them?
ATKINS: Yeah. Do they show the same behaviour when they’re gone, so Samoa or somewhere else? I don’t believe that the Sharks are only associating, putting those links together with Titi islands or specifically Edwards Island. That one boat, or those two cage diving boats in that area. I think that if it can happen here, the interaction can happen anywhere.
CRAWFORD: Okay, here’s where we separate possible and probable. Is there any evidence, or reason to believe, that people are actually seeing changes in waters other than the Titi Islands and Stewart Island?
ATKINS: All I can go off, for me is on the rare occasion I do see Sharks, especially at the beginning of the season, I seem to see them Herekopare or Bunker Island. Those Sharks are still coming up to the boat, sometimes before we start fishing. So that for me is a change.
CRAWFORD: Outside of the Titi Islands?
ATKINS: In the Titi Islands, but away from Edwards Island.
CRAWFORD: Right. Some people have expressed concerns that the White Pointers are here for a reason, and that the cage tour dive operations may actually be distracting them from doing whatever it is otherwise that they’re supposed to be doing. Do you think that the cage tour dive operations will be having an effect at that kind of ecological level?
ATKINS: Well that’s massive ...
CRAWFORD: I know it is. People have expressed it. Nobody has evidence on this one.
ATKINS: Well no, no. That’s the thing for me - without any evidence to indicate that, it's just a massive guess.
CRAWFORD: Fair enough.
CRAWFORD: Finally, what’s the biggest question that you think needs to be answered about the cage tour dive operations?
ATKINS: I want to know whether if there’s an increased risk that’s posed for what they’re doing.
CRAWFORD: You mean increased risk of Shark-Human interactions?
ATKINS: Yeah. You also have to ask "How do you research the Shark without modifying their behaviour?" Because the research that’s been done so far by the DOC guys, it's quite similar to how the cage dive operational works itself. They’re going out berleying the Sharks, hooking them with baits.
CRAWFORD: That is an excellent point. And most people don’t pick up on that. Because Clinton Duffy can’t just go out there and summon the Sharks for tagging, right? He has to berley them or bait them as well, to bring them in close for tagging.
ATKINS: Right. Personally, I think the cage divers, if they want to keep operating, they should not be berleying, they should not use throw baits. They should be taking it by chance like us when we go out fishing. If the Sharks are around and will interact with you.
Copyright © 2020 Matt Atkins and Steve Crawford