Marama Pou

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: What year were you born, Marama?

POU: 1982. 

CRAWFORD: In Riverton? 

POU: Invercargill, in the hospital. 

CRAWFORD: When did you recall first start spending a significant amount of time on the water? 

POU: When I was two. 

CRAWFORD: You remember two years old? 

POU: I do. Bits of it.

CRAWFORD: What do you remember from then? 

POU: I remember being taken to the beach around Taramea Bay. My parents putting us ... at the time it was me, my brother was just a baby ... putting me into the water. I couldn’t swim, but it was ankle deep water. And being pushed into little waves, surfing, and sitting in water, and putting sand in my mouth. 

CRAWFORD: So the water, sand and surfing - from the very beginning, surfing. 

POU: It's been engrained. 

CRAWFORD: Was surfing deeply engrained in your family prior to your arrival? 

POU: My Dad started when he was in his teens. He was from the North Island, from the far north, Kaikohe. And then he was travelling, and he met my Mom who lived in Waianiwa. 

CRAWFORD: Where’s that? 

POU: It's inland, on the way to Riverton. 

CRAWFORD: When you were young, how close to the water was the place where your family lived? 

POU: We lived at Verdun Street, around the rocks. So, it was like a 200 metre kind of thing to the water. Straight up the street. 

CRAWFORD: I’ve had several people mention that type of thing - where they grew up right on the coast.

POU: Everything was a stone throw away. 

CRAWFORD: That means afternoons, evenings, weekends, whenever, the coast was your front yard. When you were very young, what kinds of supervised activities would you be doing? Did you have training or lessons - that type of thing? 

POU: Swimming was a big thing. We were always taught to be able to keep yourself afloat. When we were school age, we were put into club swimming, so that we could learn how to be strong swimmers while surfing or around the water. 

CRAWFORD: How old were you, when club swimming started? 

POU: I think I was about six. Right through until high school, that was my last year. 

CRAWFORD: When did you begin surfing in a focussed way?

POU: Maybe when I was about 13 or 14. That’s when I started doing surf training, and I into competitions. That’s when I met Chris Hogan. 

CRAWFORD: Once you were a teenager, was that an age where you were spending more time with other kids, but maybe without supervision? 

POU: Mostly with. There weren't many kids that surfed around that time. But in and around the water, mostly my siblings, because all four of us - we were all two years apart. I’m the oldest, and then I have two brothers, [Homi and Maru??] and then a sister, [Pi??], she’s the youngest, she’s 25. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Other than surfing, what kind of activities around the water? 

POU: Swimming, snorkeling, playing in the rockpools. We used to take buckets and see what we could find and fill them up. It wasn’t diving, but we collected.

CRAWFORD: Was it food? 

POU: No. 

CRAWFORD: Just collecting for collecting’s sake? 

POU: Just collecting.

CRAWFORD: What region are we talking about here? Was it a very specific region, or did your family and friends travel widely as a kid? 

POU: Not just Riverton ... we went out towards Cosy Nook way, Pahia; spent a lot of time out there, my family did. The southwest coast. Between Riverton and Pahia, it’s about a 10-15 minute drive, and then you follow the coastal scenic road. 

CRAWFORD: Any boating time or anything like that in there as well? 

POU: No.

CRAWFORD: You were mostly on the shore or in the surf?

POU: On the shore, in the water. Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Age of 13 comes around, and you start to become a little bit more serious with surfing - as in, surfing lessons, or structured competitions? 

POU: More just fun competitions. We had the Southland Board Riders, and it was just sort of like a club, run by a whole heap of local people. Some of the older people, locals that had been surfing. And we just had fun days; get-togethers where we’d run fun competitions. But then we joined up with the Dunedin club, the Otago Board Riders, and then we started having inter-competitions between our club and their club. 

CRAWFORD: When was the first time that you remember competing? 

POU: Serious competitions? When I was 15.

CRAWFORD: That would have been the Southland Board Riders’ internal competitions?

POU: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: What was the first time you remember travelling for inter-club competition? 

POU: Probably when I was about 16 - between the ages of 16 and 18. That was when I competed nationally. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a fairly steep acceleration, from kicking around close to home and having fun, to getting right into national competition. All within about three years!

POU: Nationally, I was on the reserve for the New Zealand Team. Just like a non-flying reserve. I went to Gisborne, and we did training camps there with the Otago Team, and I ended up being a non-flying reserve when we competed in the nationals. I got fifth overall in the under-18s, in the junior women’s. 

CRAWFORD: That was at national level? 

POU: National level. The first and second place people become the team members to fly, and then third, fourth and fifth are reserves. And one non-flying reserve, which was myself. 

CRAWFORD: How old were you then? 

POU: 16. 

CRAWFORD: When you were training or competing, what amount of time were you spending actually on the water - in and around the boards, in and around the surf? 

POU: In a day or ... ? 

CRAWFORD: First, seasons. Was there more time spent in the summer than in the winter, or was it all year round? 

POU: All year round. 

CRAWFORD: Was there a seasonal pulse, certain times when you surfed more? 

POU: Probably in the warmer months, we surfed a lot more. And then wintertime it got a bit colder, it was a bit more restrictive because you’re wearing a lot more warmer equipment, hoods, booties, thick winter wetsuits.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Within the course of a week in the summertime, at your peak activity, how many days might you have been on the water? 

POU: Out of a week, probably six of the seven. 

CRAWFORD: The vast majority of time during a week, you would be boarding - at least some of that time. On average, what kind of hours on the water in a typical day? 

POU: Probably at least two or three hours a day. Sometimes when my Mom would go away, my Dad would come and pick me and my Brothers up from high school, and write a letter to the teachers and take us out at lunch time. He would say that we had to go do some training. Or that we were sick. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Very sick. Cough. Cough. [laughs]

POU: That was our training.

CRAWFORD: When you were in that phase, was your geographic range enlarged? Did you start going other places in order to surf, or was it still pretty well focused on the southwest region here? 

POU: Mostly on this region. But sometimes we’d go down to Curio Bay, which is down in the Catlins - over this way. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Started out mostly along the southwest shore, then expanded east of Bluff ... 

POU: Yeah, into the Catlins. Depending on which way the surf was. We would hire a house out, and have training camps here on Curio Bay. 

CRAWFORD: When you think about the most desirable places in southern New Zealand to learn how to surf, are they also the same places that are the most desirable to compete? Or are the competition spots different somehow in terms of their structure, or the nature of the waves, or something like that? 

POU: I think we have good waves down south. But the waves where the majority of the competitions are, they're mostly in the North Island. All the bigger competitions, they're mostly based in the North Island. 

CRAWFORD: Why is that? 

POU: I think there’s more sponsorship for competitors. There’s more funding and things like that. 

CRAWFORD: It seems like proximity to major urban centres on the North Island? 

POU: Yeah. Very close to bigger cities and things like that. There are competitions in the South Island. Like every year, Dunedin for example has the Otago Champs every year. And at Easter time, they have the South Island Champs. And they have the nationals there sometimes. 

CRAWFORD: Specifically, which sites around Dunedin? 

POU: Usually St. Clair. Everything’s based there, because the Board Riders is there. But they have what they call a floating venue - so depending on what direction the surf's coming, they can move the venue. 

CRAWFORD: Right. If somebody is learning how to surf, are there certain characteristics - like sandy beaches or a broad, open bay, or some other type of feature - that make it better for learning? Whereas once you know what you’re doing, you expand to more challenging but better surfing conditions? I’ve heard people talk about left-hooks ...

POU: A left-hander or a right-hander? That’s the direction that you’re going.

CRAWFORD: My understanding is that there are certain conditions that are absolutely prime for surfing - in terms of the nature of the wave, the size of it, how clean it is. But are there particular kinds of environments which are good to learn how to surf in? 

POU: I would say, probably sandy. At the moment, I'm currently teaching my six-year-old daughter to surf, and I just take her out on Taramea Bay around the rocks in Riverton, because it's nice and shallow. It’s a big, long, sweeping bay, like a horseshoe-shaped bay. And when the tide's out, she can stand up and catch the waves. If she falls, she’s not going to hit anything except the sand. 

CRAWFORD: So, in terms of shoreline, coastline, the south end of the South Island is a good place to learn? 

POU: Yeah. It's nice and safe. 

CRAWFORD: When you were learning to surf here, you honed your skills in this region close to home. But when you started competing in your mid-late teens, you started travelling further afield. How frequent were those competitions? 

POU: We used to have one once a month, just like a local competition. And then when we joined the Dunedin Board Riders, so the South Coast Board Riders, which is based at St. Clair in Dunedin. Then they would have an interclub competition once a month. We would have to travel to Dunedin. So we brunched there, school's out, and went further afield. 

CRAWFORD: If my math is right, that means you were surfing Dunedin between six and ten times a year? Something like that? 

POU: Yes. Dunedin had become our second home. Because our club, the numbers slowly depleted, and then there wasn’t quite the training. We had progressed to a point where we needed specific, skilled coaches - and we didn’t have the coaching facility. So that’s why we moved to the Dunedin club, and did a lot of training with them. 

CRAWFORD: Who were some of the big names in Dunedin, in terms of the coaching people who were attracting that kind of attention? 

POU: Well, my coach was [Stewie Cass??, which is Graham Cass's??], he’s a local [Quarry Beach??] surfer at St. Clair - his brother. And we had another guy, [Chris Pendigras??], we just called him [Shacks??]. And then we had [Danny Cass??, which was Graham’s son]. And [Felix Stickson??], they’re some of the younger ones. 

CRAWFORD: So, it was really kind of a centre of talent?

POU: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Made it worthwhile going to Dunedin. But it wasn’t just for the competitions - it was for coaching then as well?

POU: Coaching as well. 

CRAWFORD: When you were being coached in Dunedin, was that the type of thing you would go up for a weekend or for a week or whatever at a time? 

POU: Yes. Because by the time I started competing, there were now four children in my family: 16, 14, 12, and 7. 

CRAWFORD: And the whole family would be going? 

POU: The whole family would go. Sometimes Dad would take us. But we would all travel together. 

CRAWFORD: In addition to the competitions, how frequent would those weekend or week trips to Dunedin be? 

POU: At least once a month. We used to travel quite a lot to Dunedin. 

CRAWFORD: And when you were surfing Dunedin it was St. Clair, St. Kilda?

POU: Yes. Mostly St. Clair and Smails Beach at the time. It's down to the left side of where the sewage pipes go out. 

CRAWFORD: Left as in down current? 

POU: Yes. It's near the big Dunedin cemetery. 

CRAWFORD: Just before you get out on the Otago Peninsula itself?

POU: Yeah. You basically keep following the road from St. Kilda, up the coastal road, and go up past the cemetery. It's just below it. 

CRAWFORD: What made it such a good place for boarding? 

POU: At the time, that was just one of the places our coaches would take us. To different beaches, so when we went to competitions, we got the idea of what it was going to be like to surf in different conditions. 

CRAWFORD: Did you spend any time on the other side of the peninsula? Aramoana or Warrington?

POU: Aramoana. Not Warrington. And we spent a bit of time at Blackhead Beach as well. And a little bit of time at Brighton, and down towards Taieri Mouth. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did it ever get to the point that you spending more time in Dunedin than down here along Foveaux Strait? 

POU: Dunedin would become my second home in the ten years, leading up to and including competitions. 

CRAWFORD: Then what happened?

POU: At 17, I left home - I went to Queenstown. Followed a boy. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Did you maintain competitions while you were living in Queenstown?

POU: 17 to 18 was my last year of competing, because at 18 you are no longer a junior. You become an Open Woman. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever compete as an Open Women? 

POU: A couple of times I did, but not successfully. 

CRAWFORD: When you went to Queenstown, did that reduce the amount of time you spent around coastal New Zealand waters?. 

POU: Around coastal water, yeah. Mainly because I became quite focussed on working and socializing and that kind of stuff. I would go down home on the weekends to see family. 

CRAWFORD: Would you surf or spend time on the water on the weekends? 

POU: Yep, definitely. Surfing is something that I would never stop doing. 

CRAWFORD: That’s an important way to describe it, too. Because even when you were in Queenstown, it's roughly what, 2.5 hours away? 

POU: Yeah, it's about 2.5 hours. 

CRAWFORD: That means you were in a position where home was still accessible. You could still visit and surf - do it on a regular basis.

POU: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And when you came home to Riverton, and the conditions were decent, you would be out surfing? 

POU: Yeah. At the time I left my gear in Riverton, all my surfing gear, because there’s not much point me taking it to Queenstown. And travelling back ... because I was young, I didn’t own a car at the time. So I used to catch the shuttle bus back home. 

CRAWFORD: How long did that period go for? When you were living and working in Queenstown, and then weekends coming back to Riverton. 

POU: For 12 years. 

CRAWFORD: And fairly consistent?

POU: More consistent. When I had my first son ... he was born in 2005, I would frequently come back on the weekends to bring him home, so he could see his Grandparents. 

CRAWFORD: For family events. 

POU: Yeah. But also, I could go surfing as well. 

CRAWFORD: That takes us to about 2005. What changes after that? Did you relocate from Queenstown? 

POU: No. In 2005 he was born. 2007 I was married. And 2009 his Sister was born - she’s now six and a half years old. 

CRAWFORD: You were based in Queenstown throughout? 

POU: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Does having a family now - does that change the frequency at which you come to Riverton? Or is it still pretty much every weekend? 

POU: Every second weekend. When I had two children it was every second weekend, just because of the experiences of travelling become a bit more challenging.

CRAWFORD: Does that change the amount of time that you have available to go surfing? 

POU: No, because that’s the kind of family I have. Now that there’s more than two children - there’s six grandchildren now - so we do what we call ‘tag teaming,’ where a couple of us sit on the beach and look after the under-fives. And then go surfing for half an hour or so, and catch a few waves, and then come back in and we swap over. 

CRAWFORD: Even when you’re not surfing, you’re still spending time on the shore. When did you relocate from Queenstown?

POU: 2010. Just one week before Christmas [laughs]

CRAWFORD:  Where did you move to? 

POU: Back to Riverton, to raise my family in Riverton. 

CRAWFORD: They’re young kids now. 

POU: Yes. One’s about to go to high school in a year. 

CRAWFORD: Riverton because of family, obviously. But I'm guessing you also wanted your kids to grow up closer to the shore, to the surf? 

POU: Yeah. I wanted my kids to grow up having the things that I had when I was a kid, because it’s a value that was passed on to me, and I wanted to pass on those values to my children because they’re third generation. There are many other aspects that contributed towards why I wanted to move. I had family support, extended family. I spent 12 years being a surfer - and living inland in the mountains, that was quite hard after being a surfer all my life. Because my kids also have grandparents and family that live in Queenstown, in the mountains. They’ve got the mountains as their home, and they’ve got the lake as their home up there. And they’ve got the coast and the beaches as their home down here. 

CRAWFORD: When you relocated to Riverton, did the amount of time you spent on the water change? 

POU: I spend more because it's right there. 

CRAWFORD: If you had to gauge, roughly, how many days per week would you be surfing now? 

POU: Almost every day. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: That’s a lot of surfing.

POU: It is but then sometimes ... like for example two weeks ago, I had five days out of seven when I surfed every day, because the surf was just there, and it was perfect conditions. But then on the next day, it was still really good, if not a bit bigger. But I had surfed all week, so I had to give myself a lay day. [laughs] Just to get other things done that I had to do. Not just surf. 

CRAWFORD: When you surf now, how much of your time is you surfing, versus maybe instruction for your kids, or maybe doing other things out there as well? 

POU: It’s a bit of balance now.

CRAWFORD: Maybe 50/50, 70/30? 

POU: A typical day when there is surf, depending on when the tides are, like low tide is better for kids to surf because they can touch the ground. So, I would surf on the high tide in the morning, and then I would have my surf first and I would take them afterwards when the tide goes out. It just depends on the conditions. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of geographic locations, relative to when you were younger, is it still pretty much the same region? Do you get over to Curio Bay? 

POU: Occasionally I go to Curio Bay. Because my partner lives in Dunedin. For the last eight months I’ve been spending every weekend that I don’t have children up in Dunedin, and surfing all around that coastline there. 

CRAWFORD: Has that been the case for past 5 years, or more so recently?

POU: Over the last couple of years. 

CRAWFORD: I guess that pretty much brings us up to date. Are there any other significant chunks in there where you spent time yachting or fishing or working on some kind of commercial boats or anything like that? 

POU: Fishing - if you call it, standing on the rocks and casting. 

CRAWFORD: Shore fishing?

POU: My siblings and I used to do a little bit of fishing like that. 

CRAWFORD Ok. Any time spent on boats - fishing or otherwise?

POU: No, not on boats. That's more my Brothers.

CRAWFORD: You were either on the shore, or on a board?

POU: Yeah.

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: In terms of Māori culture and knowledge contributing to your understanding of the marine ecosystem - how much was that?

POU: From the Māori side, maybe in the middle. 

CRAWFORD: Medium level of influence?

POU: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: People from Māori culture who shared that knowledge with you, or more of a general thing from being around the community? 

POU: A bit of both. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Same thing for Science culture and knowledge - to what extent has Science contributed to your understanding of the marine world? 

POU: I would say a little bit less, because it was more my experiences that have expanded my knowledge. 

CRAWFORD: Your personal lived experiences?

POU: Yeah.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: What is the very first time that you remember hearing about or seeing a White Pointer? 

POU: Well, I haven’t seen one personally. But the first time I had seen one would probably have been on TV.

CRAWFORD: Roughly how old would you have been? 

POU: To be honest, I can’t remember. 

CRAWFORD: Young? 

POU: Very young. 

CRAWFORD: Did you associate these animals on TV as also being in the water out there - offshore from where you were playing? 

POU: Not at the time, not really. I’ve grown up in the ocean, and I’ve learned to be aware of my surroundings. But it's not something that’s ever phased me. 

CRAWFORD: I didn’t mean to suggest it ‘phased you' to know that these animals were out there. I was just wondering about the connection between TV White Pointers and the real world White Pointers.

POU: As a child, it wasn't something that I thought about. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You said you personally haven't likely seen any White Pointers in the wild. When was the first time you remember hearing about a White Pointer in New Zealand coastal waters? 

POU: Maybe in my teens. 

CRAWFORD: Would that have been in the Foveaux Strait region, or up in the Dunedin region? 

POU: Sort of the southeast coast, southwest coast. 

CRAWFORD: What would have been the context that you would have heard about these animals? 

POU: Well, it was the Shark attack in Dunedin. I remember being told about all the Shark nets that were out there. 

CRAWFORD: Were you competing in the Dunedin region when the Shark nets were out? 

POU: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing that would have been part of the conversation amongst the surfers, because it's kind of hard to miss. Did you get a sense when you were a teenager that those Shark nets were there because of Shark attacks? 

POU: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s a very specific Dunedin thing. Did you ever see or hear of Shark nets anywhere else? 

POU: Not in the Lower South Island. 

CRAWFORD: So, not Foveaux Strait. What about North Island or northern regions of the South Island? 

POU: Just specifically Dunedin. I remember the bell which still remains there, with the Shark warning, and it's got the plaque with the name of the person. 

CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember that Shark bell going off when you were in the water? 

POU: Maybe once. Just briefly going off.  And people just got out of the water.

CRAWFORD: And waited for an all-clear sign?

POU: And nothing happened, nothing became of it. It was purely there for a precaution, to take a precaution. 

CRAWFORD: What, if anything, did kids in your generation know about the incidences around Dunedin? Did you know how many Shark attacks there had been? 

POU: No. 

CRAWFORD: What did you hear? 

POU: Just that there had been a Shark attack, you know, seen it on the media. And I think it was one of the surfing magazines, maybe the New Zealand Surfing magazine or Kiwi Surf, there was a brief write-up. The Board Riders had had a paddle out, and sat in a big circle, and laid some wreaths down for the surfer. 

CRAWFORD: It was a fatal attack. 

POU: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did any of the kids in your generation know more about the attack than that? 

POU: No, not specifically. Just that it was in that bay. 

CRAWFORD: Did your generation, kids in your circles, have any opinions about the [Dunedin City Council] Shark nets? 

POU: No.

CRAWFORD: Did you see them as being there to protect you? Or to protect the swimmers? 

POU: I think a bit of both. 

CRAWFORD: Did you feel that there was a degree of protection by having those Shark nets out there? 

POU: It did feel like it was a little security kind of thing. For the ones that spent a lot of time in the water, it gave a bit of reassurance.  

CRAWFORD: When you first started spending time swimming in the water, or when you first started boarding, did the old-timers ever say anything about Sharks? About what to kind of keep your eye out for? Things to do or not do? 

POU: The one thing I remember the most is something that ... I couldn’t tell you what age, but I do remember was that if you ever see a Shark and it did come towards you, and if it tried to bump you or attack - then to get it in the nose. 

CRAWFORD: To punch it in the nose?

POU: To punch it in the nose, because that’s the most sensitive part. More a deterrent to make it leave you alone. 

CRAWFORD: Did that go hand in hand with any idea of coming to shore if you saw a Shark? 

POU: Yeah. Just getting out of the water. Or if you couldn’t get out of the water, staying really still. Not splashing around, or moving too much. Being that we’re sitting on top of the water. 

CRAWFORD: Would they tell you bring your feet up, or anything like that? 

POU: Just try and keep your body close together.

CRAWFORD: Be small and still. If you saw a Shark, get out of the water if you could. And if you couldn’t, make yourself small and quiet? 

POU: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And then if the animal still came up to you, punch it in the nose.

POU: Only if it was, you know ... If it was doing just passing by, and it didn’t harm you, you’re not going to go and punch it in the nose. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: No. You’re not going to go out of your way to make a punch! [laughs]

POU: But if you’re sitting on whatever your floatation device, like your boogie board or something, and it happened to grab that and give it a bit of a tug or bump, or actually try to physically touch you ... then of course, you punch out of defense. 

CRAWFORD: Right.. Did anybody mention certain times or certain places that you should avoid? 

POU: Certain times? 

CRAWFORD: Seasons or times of day? 

POU: I remember being told not to go out at night. Don't go surfing at night, because it was feeding time. 

CRAWFORD: Did some people go - or want to go - surfing at night? 

POU: We have been surfing on a full moon before, just in the local bay, at Mitchells Bay in Riverton. 

CRAWFORD: Where’s that? 

POU: Taramea Bay. Just a small bay off the main bay. It’s the bay directly below the beach house café. 

CRAWFORD: So, very close to town.

POU: Very, very close. We did that under the streetlights and a full moon, so that was pretty fun. And we had a friend who had a house across the road, so we had cables running across the road and we had flood lights as well. 

CRAWFORD: I’m presuming you were teenagers by this time, and this was all very fun and exciting. Was it prior to that, that people had said it was kind of general knowledge that you don’t go surfing at night? Or was it in response to you guys doing the full moon surf?

POU: Oh no, long before that. Well, it's just common sense, you know. There’s certain times of the day that you can do things. 

CRAWFORD: For the time that you went surfing at night, did anybody see anything? 

POU: No. I think everybody was focused on the waves, rather than what was going on underneath the water. 

CRAWFORD: And did you get in heck for surfing at night?

POU: No, because it was a family-and-friends thing. We had a barbeque. There were parents, there were adults. All the kids were just out there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's go back to the old-timers. Did any of them say that there were certain places or certain times of the year that you should avoid surfing?

POU: Well, I remember my Dad saying certain bays, like around sort of Pahia way, around here. That there seemed to be a lot more Seals and things like that, so there tended to be a population of Sharks. The Sharks tend to come around a lot more in the warmer months, when the Seals are having their pups. 

CRAWFORD: I guess there are really two things there. First, some kind of an association between Sharks and Seal colonies, especially for the pups?

POU: And also the warmer currents. Certain times of the year, the water’s a lot warmer. So, the mother Seals have their babies, and that’s like part of the food chain kind of thing. 

CRAWFORD: Right.

POU: And when there are warmer currents as well, especially around the Pahia area, a place we call Porridge, certain times of the year, we get a lot of warmer currents. 

CRAWFORD: What time of the year is that for you here?

POU: Summer. Sort of between now [December] and March.

CRAWFORD: Four months or so.

POU: That’s when the waters are a lot warmer.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'a lot' - you mean a couple of degrees? 

POU: Yeah. Like the water in Southland only drops by about two degrees in winter. It stays around the same temperature all year. But then in the summertime, it probably increases by between two and five degrees. 

CRAWFORD: What do you know about water flow in the Foveaux Strait region? 

POU: I know that we get currents coming in this way ...

CRAWFORD: Out of the southeast, into Foveaux Strait?

POU: Yes. And currents coming this way ...

CRAWFORD: So, up from the southwest? 

POU: Yeah. And then we get the currents that come wrapping up from the bottom of the South Island - from the east coast, and sometimes from the west coast. 

CRAWFORD: You have all sorts of ocean currents here. And one thing that other people have mentioned as well - that Foveaux Strait is actually surprisingly warm.

POU: Yes. It’s a lot more sheltered, because you’ve got the island. And the shape of the bay - it's like one big giant horseshoe.

CRAWFORD: And then on top of all of that, you have tidal currents right?

POU: Yes. At certain times of the year, as in now, for the next four months, we get the warmer currents coming. And it brings a lot of Albacore Tuna and things. So that also brings in Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: That’s the first time anybody’s mentioned that.

POU: That’s just something that I’ve noticed over the last five or six years of surfing out at Pahia. Every year at the same time of year, not White Pointers, but we have what we call Sevengillers - they’re kind of like the big Bull Sharks. And there’s quite a few of them, maybe about four of them. One really big one that bases itself in this area, and that's the one that’s been bumping a lot of the surfers. 

CRAWFORD: We’ll come back to that in a bit. How do you know that there are Tuna in the region? Are the fishermen catching them or ...

POU: Just from hearing conversations, and from other people, fishermen.

CRAWFORD: Is there a particular region that they say they are catching Tuna? Or are they just seeing them, and not catching them? 

POU: I think they are just seeing them and not catching them. 

CRAWFORD: in terms of Seal colonies, going from Long Point all the way across to Bluff, when you think about Seal colonies in that region, where would you think that the greatest number of Seals are? 

POU: Just from my own experience, I would say around the Pahia area, and possibly a few in the Bluff area.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I know you said you haven’t seen any White Pointers yourself. But you have seen Sharks while you were out boarding? 

POU: Yes, I’ve had experiences with Sharks. Where I’ve been bumped. 

CRAWFORD: Where was that? 

POU: That was at Pahia, at Porridge. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when was that? 

POU: About maybe seven or eight years ago. It was during the summertime. The warmer months. 

CRAWFORD: So, December/January maybe? 

POU: Yeah. Summer holidays. 

CRAWFORD: Describe the incident, please. What happened? 

POU: For maybe a few weeks there had been a Shark hanging around. Quite a big one, about the length of this table. 

CRAWFORD: So, three metres maybe? 

POU: Yeah, possibly a big bigger. And about the same width as the table as well. People were getting bumped off their surfboards. And a couple people would actually have their boards bitten. 

CRAWFORD: When you have experienced getting bumped off your board, was it something that you knew it was coming? Did you see the animal coming in, and push the board up, and then you're off? 

POU: It just gave the board a nudge. You can’t really do much about it. You see the Shark just suddenly coming, because the water’s quite clear. At certain times the water’s quite clear, so you can see the bottom and it's maybe four or five metres deep. 

CRAWFORD: Would that be an average depth for you? Sitting on your board, waiting for the next wave? 

POU: Just depending on whether it was a high tide or a low tide.

CRAWFORD: If it was a high tide, what depth would you be in? 

POU: Maybe 10 metres. 

CRAWFORD: And if it was a low tide? 

POU: Maybe half that. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, in some instances, people who are getting bumped off their boards - they see the Shark coming in at an angle to them? 

POU: Just coming, yeah. From the side and up. In general, most have been bumped on the nose of the board, the point of the board. A couple have bumped the back of the board, where the fins are. But mostly either the side or the nose. 

CRAWFORD: Would the Shark sometimes bump the middle of the board, between the legs? 

POU: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So basically, front or middle, or back. But mostly front or back? 

POU: Mostly the front and the back. 

CRAWFORD: And the bumping - was it a head butt or a body butt? 

POU: Like a nose, or sometimes a tail flick. Sort of brushed on the side, like where the fins are. Sorry, I’m not so good with the names of the Shark parts. 

CRAWFORD: No problem. Have you ever been bumped completely off your board? 

POU: Not off my board, but I have been bumped enough to make me almost fall off. 

CRAWFORD: How many times have you been bumped? 

POU: About four times. 

CRAWFORD: What happened?

POU: It swam around, and then looked like it was going to disappear. And then it came back up to the the nose of the board again from behind, and bumped the nose. 

CRAWFORD: Does it always come up? Or does it sometimes come in from the side at the surface? 

POU: No, it always comes up. 

CRAWFORD: You described that you thought it was going to go away?

POU: But it came back. Because everyone else had seen it coming, prior to it happening. And we were talking about it, just joking about seeing a Shark. And then actually one came, and then everybody jumped on their surf boards, and caught waves, and there was none left for me. So, I had to sit there! [laughs] I sat there with my feet up, my legs and elbows up. And I sat really still for about five minutes, just waited for it to disappear. And then I paddled for my life. 

CRAWFORD: Was it circling around? 

POU: It was a couple times. It circled, and then it just swam off, and then I paddled frantically to the beach. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Pretty scary.

POU: Enough to scare me. But I surf there now. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t. 

CRAWFORD: How did you recognize this as being a Sevengiller?

POU: By the color of it, the fin, and the number of gills on the side of it. 

CRAWFORD: And it was clear water - you see what this animal is. 

POU: Yeah. And it’s the same one. 

CRAWFORD: How do you know it’s the same one? 

POU: Because it's got the same kind of markings on it. 

CRAWFORD: Oh yeah? 

POU: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: It had individual markings that you figure ...

POU: They looked quite identifiable. I do know that, because there was more than just the one Shark. There’s been a few of them. And when there was, I think maybe five years ago, there was an attack. No, might have been even more recent, maybe three years ago. There was an attack there when there was a diver. 

CRAWFORD: Attack where? 

POU: In the same bay - at Porridge. But it was in Garden Bay, which is the bay that’s ... you’ve got to walk over to Porridge. And Garden Bay’s the little bay just before it. So, there was a diver who’d just come in on his boat. And he must have been cleaning ...

CRAWFORD: A scubadiver? 

POU: Yeah. It was in the newspaper and in the media. He was a doctor in Invercargill, and he was attacked. And that was around the time that there were quite a few Sharks around. People stayed out of the water. My Dad, because of the all of the Shark bumpings and that person who was attacked, he put a huge Shark warning sign on the gate of Porridge - the exit gate to go over the hill. Just warning people that there were Sharks in the area. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Is that sign still up? 

POU: Not anymore, because the land has now been taken over by a person who’s a trustee of Ngai Tahu. He’s a person who’s leasing the land currently, farming. So, access to get to Porridge is ... we can no longer drive over. It's only by foot now. 

CRAWFORD: How long of a walk is it, roughly? 

POU: From Garden Bay? 

CRAWFORD: From wherever you park your car.

POU: You park your car in Garden Bay, so it's maybe a ten-minute walk over the hill, through the cow paddocks, over farmland. 

CRAWFORD: You mentioned before that there were repeated incidences with Sevengillers. When was the first time that you heard about people getting bumped?  

POU: In that specific area? In the last ten years.

CRAWFORD: Not so much before then? 

POU: No. 

CRAWFORD: Had you surfed Garden Bay and Porridge prior to ten years ago? 

POU: Yes, and never really heard too much about Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: But more so over the last ten years?

POU: I’ve also noticed in the last ten years, the water in that area, at this specific time of year, spring/summer, has got a lot more warm. So, we also get a lot more Jellyfish, like Bluebottles, coming in. That’s when we know the water’s warming, because we get a lot of Bluebottles coming in. 

CRAWFORD: Are Bluebottles something that boarders and swimmers have to be wary of? 

POU: Kind of. But they're not ... it's more when there’s too many of them in the water. 

CRAWFORD: They can be there in low numbers ...

POU: Yeah. For myself, I’ll take something to the beach with me, so if I get stung, i can pour vinegar or a solution. 

CRAWFORD: How big are the Bluebottles? 

POU: Tiny. But you can get ones maybe this big [approx. 10-15 cm], but they’ve got big long tentacles. Not like Box Jellyfish or anything. But enough to hurt. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Getting back to the Sevengillers - you noticed changes in their abundance from about ten years ago to the present?

POU: It's almost like global warming, where everything is kind of changing and the environment's changing. 

CRAWFORD: Along the southern coast of South Island, are Porridge and Garden Bay, are they exceptional, or are there other bays where people have reported increased Sharks in general, including but not limited to the Sevengillers?

POU: There and Bluff. I don’t know, I’ve just kind of heard.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You mentioned the Sevengillers bumping, sometimes biting. Is biting a rare thing - what percentage of the time? 

POU: More like toying, you know. Just being curious as to what the object is, rather than like actually attacking. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Not a clamp and a head shake, or anything like that. Did you ever think that Sevengillers were going to hurt you? 

POU: I didn’t think it was going to hurt me. It was just checking me out, and seeing how I would react. Maybe if I had reacted differently, then the Shark may have reacted differently. 

CRAWFORD: Do people sometimes describe seeing the Sevengillers but there being no interactions?

POU: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Do sometimes people describe swim-bys, when the animal doesn't even stop?

POU: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Do you know of any other cases where there has been clear aggression or attitude? 

POU: No. Just the incident with the doctor getting bit, and when Sevengillers bite boards.

CRAWFORD: But those could be just being curious. Sharks put things in their mouths to explore them. 

POU: Yeah, because all of their senses are in their mouth. 

CRAWFORD: I don't think you talked about a Sevengiller biting down on your board. Did that happen to you?

POU: Not myself being bitten on the board. But I’ve had two friends who have had their boards bitten. 

CRAWFORD: Kind of a clamp down?

POU: Yeah, clamp down. Not like bitten and the whole thing, but more like left a little imprint, tooth imprint kind of thing. Just like to see what it is, I guess. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Other than the physician that got bit by a Sevengiller, has anybody else had their legs ...

POU: Nobody else has been physically bitten or injured. 

CRAWFORD: And he was scubadiving, rather than boarding.

POU: Yeah. Whereas the bumps that myself and my friends and the local surfers have experienced at Porridge have all been where we were on top of the water. 

CRAWFORD: And not really even what you would call 'attacks'. 

POU: No. 

CRAWFORD: Have there been cases where people have been boarding and getting bumped, and they did not see the Shark that caused it? Or maybe they saw it, but not clearly enough to really identify it as a Sevengiller? 

POU: I’ve heard of people saying things, because we are a very tight surfing community. Someone might say that they’ve been bumped by a Shark, but they didn’t see it. And then that will get out to other people. So, I’ve heard in that way. 

CRAWFORD: What I’m trying to get to, is that if someone is out there boarding ... and let's say that they don’t have a lot of experience with Sharks. And they see a Shark shape come up, and that Shark shape circles them, or bumps them, or clamps down on their board. If they didn’t know, they might just jump to the conclusion that it was a Sevengiller - and they could be right or wrong. Or they could jump to the conclusion that it was a White Pointer - and they could be right or wrong. Based on what you know about this region, and the people who spend time on or under the water, to what degree do you think boarders, swimmers and divers might mistake a Sevengiller for a White Pointer?

POU: It could come to that if the story is changed. 

CRAWFORD: Especially for people that haven’t seen a Shark up close before?

POU: Yeah. Someone who has never been around it, or who has the knowledge of that as a first encounter. 

CRAWFORD: Or they were simply be afraid ...

POU: Misidentify it as being a White Pointer.

CRAWFORD: It's possible. But in this part of the world, it's also very possible it was a White Pointer.

POU: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Here's another question along these lines - have you ever seen a Basking Shark?

POU: Not in person, but I’ve seen a video of my Brother swimming with a Basking Shark in [??? Bay]. t's amazing footage! In fact, I should try to get my hands on it. The most amazing footage ever, where he’s on the diving boat with Robbie, on the dinghy. And they dived in the water, and this thing just came towards them, they had the GoPro on. And this huge Basking Shark was swimming towards them. And then it opens its mouth like this, and you can see right back down into its throat and stomach. And then my Brother just freaked out, because it was coming towards him, and he scrambled to the surface. And then you see it just cruise past. And it was just huge. It was way bigger than their dinghy - they had this big boat, outboard. 

CRAWFORD: And that's how some people have described their interactions with these big Basking Sharks.

POU: Gentlest giants.

CRAWFORD: Yes. Do you know what Basking Sharks feed on? 

POU: What do they call it, shrimp? 

CRAWFORD: Plankton.

POU: Plankton, yeah.

CRAWFORD: They are the most non-threatening animals ...

POU: Because they don’t have teeth, they just have - not even baleen ... It's just got a filter system, and then it closes its mouth and pushes everything out, and the food stays trapped in its stomach. 

CRAWFORD: What the animal was doing by opening its mouth, it was after a plankton patch. Aand it just so happened that they were there. Maybe it didn’t even see them. 

POU: Yeah, most likely didn’t see them. 

CRAWFORD: That sounds like amazing footage. Yes, I’d be interested if you talk to your Brother and seeing that. But it's important to note that you already commented on two of the features that many people use to discriminate a White Pointer and a Basking Shark. The first one is the size - White Pointers get up to a maximum size at 5-6 metres, but the Basking Sharks get up to almost double that size.

POU: But also, you can distinguish them by them by the shape of their fin as well. 

CRAWFORD: How do you know about that? 

POU: I used to watch National Geographic and lots of wildlife shows.

CRAWFORD: What was it that you picked up from the shows about the shape of the dorsal fin on a Basking Shark? 

POU: That it was more like if I compared it to a Dolphin fin, just for example. We have these big Dolphins that are like Porpoises - that come up the river every year at Riverton. We call them Blackfish. And they are about the size of a large Shark, and they’ve got a rounded fin. Whereas a Shark, like a White Pointer, the fin looks very similar to these Porpoises that we have - but it's got more of a pointed shape to it. 

CRAWFORD: What about the distinction between a Basking Shark and a White Pointer? 

POU: A Basking Shark has got a very long fin, and it's also a lot wider. A White Pointer has got a different shape and you know, it's more sticking upwards and shorter. 

CRAWFORD: People who are on or in the water, seeing one kind of Shark and maybe thinking it's another. The crazy thing that makes this all so complex, is that this particular stretch of water, Foveaux Strait, has all three species.

POU: Yep.

CRAWFORD: You’ve got Basking Sharks, and Sevengillers, and White Pointers - as well as other Shark species on top of that. Ok. Let's get back to when you noticed that the Sevengillers were increasing in Garden Bay and Porridge. Why that region specifically?

POU: Maybe the food population. This is just my thoughts. 

CRAWFORD: What do Sevengillers feed on? 

POU: Fish. There are less divers in that area too. 

CRAWFORD: Oh really? As in scubadivers, Pāua divers, or what? 

POU: Scubadivers. Pāua divers can go there, but now that their access is more difficult, it's become more plentiful and replenished again

CRAWFORD: What has replenished?

POU: All the sea food. 

CRAWFORD: Right. In terms of Sevengillers, you said that they have patterns of markings on them. Do you think that they take up residence, that if you come back two weeks later, that you can see the same individual Sevengiller? 

POU: I think just by chance, because they may be there all the time. They may actually be territorial, where they swim in certain areas and come back to that area. Like swim in a cycle kind of thing. 

CRAWFORD: Do think that when a Sevengiller bumps or chomps a board, without the edge or attitude ... Do you think that it would do it out of curiousness or territoriality?

POU: Maybe a bit of both.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that they are territorial, the Sevengillers?

POU: Possibly.

CRAWFORD: Do they act as individuals, or do you see them in groups? 

POU: The one that I have seen was always by itself, on the two occasions. And then there was one occasion where there was a couple smaller ones with it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you ever hear of any Sharks that were getting in amongst boarders during a surf competition? 

POU: I heard of a small Shark when they had a surf competition at Colac Bay, like a Dogfish. 

CRAWFORD: So, a small Shark? 

POU: Yeah, small. But when, like you said before, when you’re a person that’s never had an encounter with a Shark, this Shark you see - which could be quite small - suddenly becomes big in your story. And occasionally we get them in Riverton, you know.

CRAWFORD: You get what? The little Sharks up the river? 

POU: The little ones, when the Dolphins come in

CRAWFORD: Really? I've met some people who have mentioned that whenever the Dolphins are around, that the Sharks never are. Because the Dolphins would harass the Sharks. Maybe they meant larger Sharks. Have you heard those types of stories - about interactions between Dolphins and Sharks? 

POU: I’ve heard that the Dolphins are there, as like a warning to scare away the Shark. 

CRAWFORD: Have you, or anyone you’ve known, seen Dolphins harassing Sharks? 

POU: No. I haven’t seen anything. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's talk a little bit about White Pointers specifically. You've said you haven't seen any yourself. What do you remember hearing from previous generations or your contemporaries, about people’s experiences along the mainland of South Island, along Foveaux Strait, around Stewart Island? Do you ever remember hearing about people seeing White Pointers?

POU: No.

CRAWFORD: Spending all of the time on the water that you did, from your youngest years to now - nobody that you know has ever seen a White Pointer in this region?

POU: Maybe only hearing about it around the Stewart Island area. That was from fishermen. I remember watching a documentary once, and it showed the areas where they would swim in a pattern kind of thing. There would be certain times of year they would be in certain places. So, they weren’t just staying in one place, they were moving around.

CRAWFORD: When would you have seen that documentary? A long time ago or recently? 

POU: Quite a while ago. Like more than ten years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Would you have heard anything about White Pointers from the Riverton fishermen? 

POU: No. Just because I didn’t really have a lot of the boat side of it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Do you know any of the Pāua divers that come from Riverton or Bluff? nyone Pāua diving over at Stewart island? 

POU: Yeah, my Brother is one of them. 

CRAWFORD: Full-time? Part-time?

POU: It's his full-time job. He’s been a Pāua diver since he was 16, when he left school.

CRAWFORD: And how old is he now? 

POU: He’s to be 29.

CRAWFORD: So, the past 13 years - hardcore. As far as you recall, your Brother hasn't mentioned ever having seen a White Pointer? 

POU: Not seeing one, no. 

CRAWFORD: Might have heard about them? 

POU: Heard about them, but not actually seen one. He just heard from other people.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Is there anything else about other people’s experiences with White Pointers in this region that I should be asking about? Or that you’ve heard about, or that in some way or another might have come up in your time around the water, or talking to people in the local community? 

POU: Not that I can think of. 

Copyright © 2019 Marama Pou and Steve Crawford