Ken McAnergney

YOB: 1940
Experience: Civil Planner, Māori Cultural Historian
Regions: Southland, Stewart Island
Interview Location: Christchurch, NZ
Interview Date: 23 December 2015
Post Date: 04 July 2021; Copyright © 2021 Ken McAnergney and Steve Crawford

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: What year were you born, Ken?

MCANERGNEY: 1940. In Invercargill.

CRAWFORD: What is the first memory that you have of coastal New Zealand? Where might you have been, and when?

MCANERGNEY: Probably the first experience would be going to Oreti Beach. We were keen visitors there to occasionally harvest Toheroa. The other experiences would have been going to Bluff, and going to Dunedin - all around about the same time.

CRAWFORD: How old would you have been during this time? 

MCANERGNEY: In the period of being three years to five years of age.

CRAWFORD: Were they daytrips, or did you have a holiday home, or were you visiting friends or family?

MCANERGNEY: Daytrips to Oreti Beach. Daytrips to Bluff. Family visits to places like Dunedin. It was very restricted, and very limited travel, because it was in the period 1943-45, so the War was still on. Very limited travel opportunities. 

CRAWFORD: Limited by way of available resources?

MCANERGNEY: Just people just couldn't travel.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you were around coastal New Zealand waters, I'm presuming you were swimming and spending time around the shore. You said you were doing some harvesting. Did you ever have opportunity to be out in dinghies, or go fishing in any way?

MCANERGNEY: Those opportunities came later. From the age of maybe 7 or 8, and then became a lot more serious when I joined the Jellicoe Sea Scouts in Invercargill. They operated on the Invercargill estuary.

CRAWFORD: What age for Sea Scouts?

MCANERGNEY: By that time, I would have been probably 11 or 12. 

CRAWFORD: During those early years before Sea Scouts, what kind of nearshore activities were your favourites?

MCANERGNEY: In those years I would have been in boats on the occasional visit to Stewart Island. I would have been sitting in, muddling around, perhaps linefishing in a dinghy in Halfmoon Bay or Golden Bay. 

CRAWFORD: What was your connection with Halfmoon Bay? Did you have family there? Maybe you went on daytrips or weekend visits?

MCANERGNEY: My parents rented a crib on Stewart Island. We went there for family holidays.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I'm guessing that would have been maybe a couple weeks a year - that type of thing?

MCANERGNEY: We'd go for a couple of weeks. We went as a family maybe only twice, and then after that I went on visits there in company of friends and extended family. 

CRAWFORD: Was that pretty much an annual thing, from when it started? Did you tend to go to Stewart Island every year?

MCANERGNEY: No. I went there sporadically, because my Parents were in business, and they couldn't get away a lot. So, I was reliant on going with extended family, when the opportunity arose. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember roughly the age at which you started spending time at Stewart Island?

MCANERGNEY: I guess I must have been ... I was still at primary school. So, I guess I would have been maybe 10 or 11, I suppose. 

CRAWFORD: When you were at Stewart Island, swimming, playing in the dinghies, linefishing, that type of thing - all around Halfmoon Bay. You also mentioned Golden Bay, so you also spent some time around Paterson Inlet?

MCANERGNEY: Golden Bay, down to Native Island.

CRAWFORD: And then as you grew older, you started spending time with the Sea Scouts?

MCANERGNEY: Most of my time mucking about in boats as a boy would have been in Invercargill Estuary, with the Sea Scouts. But then, at every opportunity as I got into my teens, I spent more and more time at Stewart Island. The transition occurred once I had gone to secondary school. Once I got to 14 or 15, I was allowed more freedom. 

CRAWFORD: I'm presuming the Jellicoe Sea Scout training included basic navigational skills, sea safety, those types of things?

MCANERGNEY: Boat handling. We learned to row a boat, we learned to tie knots, we learned to hoist sails, we learned how to sail, we learned how to get from A to B safely. 

CRAWFORD: Right. People often describe getting access to a motorized vessel as an important expansion in the range of opportunities that they had available to them. Both in terms of where they went, and what they did. Was that true for you as well? Did you ever have access to an outboard motor that you and your mates could go out with?

MCANERGNEY: Yeah, we did. That occurred in the teenage years, Jellicoe Sea Scout years. The two boys that I went to the Island with frequently, the Murdoch boys, they had a boat shed and a little bay called Salt Water - in Halfmoon Bay, maybe 500 metres round towards Thompson's Bay. There's a little cluster of boat sheds, and their one was called 'Salt Water'. And they had a clinker-built dinghy, and a small Anzani outboard that we used extensively. 

CRAWFORD: At that point, I presume you started exploring a fair bit. While you were motorboating in Halfmoon Bay, did you ever go linefishing?

MCANERGNEY: We explored. We did a lot of linefishing. We had Crayfish pots. And one of the fishing systems that I really enjoyed, and did a lot of, was ringnet fishing for Greenbone. That was a fish which wouldn't take bait, so you caught it in an age-old traditional way that I was helped to develop by an old Māori fellow who lived in the vicinity of Halfmoon Bay. An old boy called Buddy Willa. He lent me a ringnet, and showed me how to manage that. 

CRAWFORD: Can you describe how that ringnet worked?

MCANERGNEY: The ringnet was a piece of Supplejack, which is a Native vine. It was made into a circle, then spirally wrapped around, and tied in two or three places with a strip of Harakeke, a strip of Flax - or if you had access to it, a piece of fishing line. So, you made a ring about a metre in diameter or slightly less, and then around the exterior of that ring you fastened on a piece of fishing net - again with Harakeke or with fishing line. You would weight that in the middle with a stone, or in some cases a piece of scrap metal, iron. An old sash weight sometimes was used. So that you had a ring in a disk shape with a harness that would have three ropes tied around the exterior of the ring to your haul line. You put in the bait for the fish. We used to make little woven baskets out of fishing nets or Harakeke platted kete, and you put crushed-up Mussels in the little kete that would sit in the ringnet. And then you would carefully lower it down to the edge of the Kelp. The fish you were targeting was commonly called the Butterfish, or the Greenbone. It was a fish that wouldn't respond to linefishing - you couldn't catch it on a line. You had to lean over the side, and you had to look down, and wait to see the fish going into the ringnet and onto the bait. When you maybe had a couple of fish in there nibbling away, you would very quickly and steadily haul up the ringnet, and bring it into the dinghy, tip the contents out, reset it and then drop it back down again.

CRAWFORD: Thank you. That was an excellent description. Ok. So, the outboard motor expanded your range around Halfmoon Bay. Were you also perhaps spending more time in Paterson Inlet? Or were you going up and down the coast outside of the Bay?

MCANERGNEY: We spent very little time in Paterson Inlet with the outboard motor, because the fishing was much, much better in Halfmoon Bay, and out into the Bay just around Acker's Point. We had an informal trade in selling Butterfish and Crayfish to visitors to Stewart Island for small amounts of cash. A highly illegal trade, but it was very successful. It enabled us to buy a few bottles of beer underage. [both chuckle]

CRAWFORD: I get the impression that as you got older, through your teens, you preferentially spent more time on the Island?

MCANERGNEY: Yes, as much time as I could.

CRAWFORD: Because you were still in school at this point, it was still mostly going to be holidays, perhaps some weekends, during the summer?

MCANERGNEY: Yeah, weekends. My parents were very indulgent. The journey to the Island in those days was by a vessel called the Wairua, which took a long time. So, during the summer months, when I was going there more and more frequently, I would cycle out to Invercargill Airport on a Friday afternoon, and fly across to Stewart Island in the amphibian aircraft, a Grumman G-44 Widgeon, which would land on the beach in Halfmoon Bay. Passengers would get out, you had a wonderful weekend, fly back on Monday, and be late to school. There were various things that were drawing me to the Island at that time. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Other than you spending time in dinghies, and fishing, and a little bit of illegal trade - were you spending any other amount of time on or around the water? For instance, did you ever do any Muttonbirding? Or did you spend time at different places around Stewart Island or the other islands?

MCANERGNEY: I was unable to do Muttonbirding, because my family hadn't been involved in the birding fraternity. We didn't have the necessary whakapapa. My Mother, when I pleaded to perhaps be able to go Muttonbirding and get involved in it, she said that Muttonbirding was for the families of the people who were the fishermen, the freezer workers, the seasonal workers - and that I should just concentrate on my studies. She famously said "Get back, and finish your piano practice. If you can play the piano, you'll be popular at parties." [chuckles] But that's another story. The other times that I had on the Island, were with the Sea Scouts. We had one famous Easter where we went by fishing boat from Bluff to Port Adventure and Lords River. We had an extended stay there. 

CRAWFORD: I think that gives me a good sense of your teen years around Stewart Island. 

MCANERGNEY: Incidentally, that trip to Lords River was where I first came across a big Shark. 

CRAWFORD: We're going to put a place holder on that, because that's how we'll start the second part of the interview.

MCANERGNEY: Ok. The other thing that I would like to mention, is that although the waters were incredibly cold down there ... as young people, it was often said "They don't feel the cold anyways." So, we would go to places in the dinghy, dive down to get Kina and Pāua, and occasionally to hook for Crayfish with a piece of wire. So, we were on the water, around the water, and in the water.

CRAWFORD: Was your diving with mask, fins and snorkel? Or just diving while swimming?

MCANERGNEY: Just swimming. We were in New Zealand - you were a very fortunate person if you had a pair of flippers and a mask.

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing you were also very fortunate if the amphibian aircraft dropped you off at the beach on Stewart Island?

MCANERGNEY: Yes. The other thing we had, was a wooden box that had a pane of glass in the bottom of it, that enabled us to see what was happening in the water. Now this is something which maybe you will have a placeholder on this as well, because this involved you leaning right over the side of the boat, and looking right down into the water. It was a very useful way, in which you could see what was happening in the ringnet. But you could also see the wonders of the whole forest of the Kelp. I was very interested in that.

CRAWFORD: The idea of these boxes with panes of glass has come up several times with different interviews. It seems to be distinctively something that was done and very much appreciated. It gave people a very different sense of what was happening below the surface. 

MCANERGNEY: Exactly. I still have my one in my boat shed.

CRAWFORD: So, your the teen years - I'm getting a decent sense of that. There's a natural break point at some point coming up. Perhaps it’s when you finished secondary school, or perhaps you got a job, or maybe you relocated. What's the next big thing in your history that happened?

MCANERGNEY: Before I depart from that, while I was going to the Island as a boy, I formed three strong, enduring friendships. One with Phillip Smith, one with Owen Eriksson, and one with Neil Hamilton. Neil Hamilton doesn't live on the Island anymore, but Phillip Smith and Owen Eriksson both do. They were all children of fishermen and fisher people. They were part of a very strong allegiance and alliances that I had with those people, and drew me to the Island in my secondary school years. 

CRAWFORD: Of the time you spent on the island, and specifically the time you spent on and around the water, would it have been with those guys - for a big chunk of it?

MCANERGNEY: It would have been for a large chunk of it. I think they were all in the Rakiura Sea Scouts, and there was Jellicoe Sea Scouts in Invercargill, Te Ara O Kiwa Sea Scouts in the Bluff. Rakiura had a small troop of Sea Scouts. We use to meet together, pitch tents and camp together, and then we would have rowing races and sailing races and swimming races in the water.

CRAWFORD: I think that’s especially important. Some people have described weekend and holiday trips to the Island. But when your mates, the people you're really spending time with are from fishermen's families ... they're young people, but they're very comfortable on and around the water. It’s not as if you were hanging out with tourists. You were basically embedded with practicing families.

MCANERGNEY: Exactly! And with the fishermen on the Island, they seemed to be very appreciative of young unpaid hands like me, who were good at mooring boats. We knew how to tie knots that could be undone. Many people tie knots, but the skill of the fishermen and the sea farer is to tie the right knot at the right time - but most importantly to be able to untie the knot in an emergency. I had a wonderful relationship with a fisherman, now deceased, a guy called Bill Hopkins, and he use to let me handle his boat. It was a great privilege for me to be able to steer, and help him with his boat, and put it on the moorings, go out and get it off the moorings, and do all sorts of things like that. 

CRAWFORD: Bill Hopkins - was that Colin's Dad?

MCANERGNEY: Bill was Colin's Uncle.

CRAWFORD: Alright. I'm guessing that something happened in your 20s. Something that was going to change your distribution of time and place. What might that have been?

MCANERGNEY: In 1957, when I was 17, I went with one of my Stewart Island friends, and some others - a fellow called Vere Murdoch who co-owned the boat shed that we camped in. We went with a contingent of Scouts from New Zealand to a World Scout Jamboree in England. We went by sea, and we were away from New Zealand from May until December. Up until then, I had my heart set on going to sea to earn my living. When I came back from England in 1957, I said to my parents "I want to go to University." So, I had to go back to school and start studying again. That changed everything, completely. Most of the other Scouts took off, and did all sorts of other things. At the end of that school year, I had one more summer holiday on Stewart Island - in 1958-59. And then I came to Christchurch to go to Canterbury University. I went back to Stewart Island in about 1970 to help a friend clear out his Father's house - but on that visit, none of my friends were there. It just changed everything for me. Living in Christchurch with a family, my connection with Stewart Island was in my head and in my heart, but there was no physical presence there until 1990. 

CRAWFORD: Just before we fast forward across that hiatus ... when you went to university, what program were you enrolled in?

MCANERGNEY: I was just enrolled in a general program to get my school certificate in English, physics, chemistry and mathematics.

CRAWFORD: Did you also have some of the natural sciences in your studies?

MCANERGNEY: Not really, no.

CRAWFORD: But some of the courses you were taking - mathematics, physics, chemistry - those are science-based.

MCANERGNEY: That was what I had to study, in order for me to progress into what was called 'Third Marine', which would have got me a good job off the New Zealand coast. What they called the 'home boats' that came to harbours like Bluff, Dunedin, Timaru, Lyttleton, etc. All around the New Zealand coast. They were owned by large international companies, and they didn't hire deck officers out of New Zealand, they hired engineers - refrigeration engineers, and marine engineers. In order to do that, you had to have a science background. But I didn't do biology or botany or any of those.

CRAWFORD: Not the life sciences, but the physical sciences?

MCANERGNEY: Yeah. No history, no geography. None of that sort of stuff. That was just innate and natural, that you learned along the way.

CRAWFORD: When you went into the career stream, what was your first full-time job?

MCANERGNEY: My first full-time job was as an engineering surveyor.

CRAWFORD: Marine or terrestrial?

MCANERGNEY: Land-based.

CRAWFORD: And what kind of jobs did you have between that first job and 1990?

MCANERGNEY: I worked in engineering survey, hydrology - where I set up a network of rain gauges, and stream gauges, and volumetric measurement of sewer flows and storm water flows to produce design figures for a large organization here in Christchurch. Then I got involved in transportation planning, and was involved in the planning side of motorways, expressways, one-way streets, pedestrian walls, and those sorts of things to do with the way in which people were moved around cities. Then from there, I went into aviation, into airport planning.

CRAWFORD: And at every stage, I'm guessing you became more and more familiar with the interface between what people refer to as natural resources and the Crown Management Acts and provisions and plans regarding what people do in the management of those activities, with regard to the urban and natural environments?

MCANERGNEY: Well, that's an interesting way of putting it. Because there was another stream going on in my life, aside from all of this, which was my involvement in land owned by my Mother and some of her relations. This was Māori land in western Southland. You would have seen my adze collection out in the hallway. All the time I was on Stewart Island, if I wasn't fishing, if the weather wasn't suitable, or after very, very big rain storms, or anything that involved any large movement of earth - I would be fossicking around old midden and other occupation sites, looking for Māori artifacts. In the process of doing those little fossickings, I became friendly with the then-Director of the Southland Museum at Invercargill, who was a Stewart Island woman. Her name was Olga Sansom. She introduced me, and lent me various books about Māori, and various books about southern Māori. Through my Mother's connections, I became friendly with various Māori knowledge holders. I mentioned Buddy Willa. I'm sorry I get a little emotional sometimes when I speak about these people, because they were incredibly important. They told me stuff that other kids were not interested in. And I've spent my life trying to understand the ways of my Ancestors, and the way in which they had used the resources of Stewart Island. The way they had gone there seasonally. We were all very much aware of the Muttonbirders, but the Muttonbirding harvest was over a very short period of time. I discovered through conversations with old Māori ... George Fife was one; I spent some days fishing with him - he had knowledge. I had an Uncle who lived in Bluff, Uncle Harold Ashwell. And then a wonderful old guy called Sid Cormack out of Te Waewae Bay. From all of those people, I got what I call the pieces of my jigsaw. And the pieces of the jigsaw had little bits of individual meaning, but it wasn't until many years later that you start to assemble these pieces, and you start to string them all together. You get to understand that these Māori people who came to this place, and recognized its value as a resource centre - they were incredibly resourceful. They had to understand and record the migration periods, because they understood the migration periods, and the arrival and departure of the Titi. Well, let me rephrase that. They understood the arrival and departure of the Oi - my name in Waitaha for the adult bird. The Titi was the baby. And that's a point which I'm just going to make here, and then drop and move on. They harvested the baby bird in the burrow. But they knew that this bird arrived at a certain moon, and they knew it departed at a certain moon. We used to talk at night. We'd be lying in a harbour, down the coast of Stewart Island. You would hear birds calling in the night. And one of the birds that we used to talk about was this mystical bird the Hakawai. "When the Hakawai calls, the Titi departs." I've never said that to anybody before. That's a very special little line from a wonderful karakia. These little karakias were things that I picked up from these people, and subsequently later picked up from other people who had never been to Stewart Island. So, I became increasingly focussed on this place, although I wasn't visiting it. I was working for my Mother on our land in western Southland, and talking to old Māori people. Some of them had been on fleeting visits to the Island, but they all had experience of the South Coast from the Whata around at the far end of Te Waewae Bay, right through to Parakanui, up to north of Otakou of the Otago Peninsula. It was through those conversations that you learned the importance of all these special places, and the times at which they visited them, and they grazed them. They went there to harvest particular resources, and they took only what they needed and only what they could carry - and they moved on. My great fear is that the resources of our precious Rakiura are being downgraded, because it’s too easy to go and harvest now. 

CRAWFORD: As I've tried to convey to you before, every discussion ... these are not so much interviews, as they are discussions. Every discussion has its own dynamic, its own life. What I find particularly interesting in this regard, is your understanding of the Crown's perspective, and its action through pieces of legislation or policy or whatever. But at the same time, you are on a very personal, spiritual journey through place across this territory, and also through time. That you are accessing people who carry with them knowledge and wisdom from previous generations. And that's becoming as important in your understanding of this modern context, as all of the technical or professional insights that you have developed. So, it's a combination of both. Would that be fair to say?

MCANERGNEY: Yeah. It's how they meld together, how they blend together, how they interweave. 

CRAWFORD: If I was listening closely, 1990 was a key point in your personal history. What caused those changes in 1990 - with regards to where you were spending time, and what you were doing? And what was the before, but mostly what was the after? Especially as it relates to your experience with New Zealand coastal waters again?

MCANERGNEY: Well, in 1990 I went to a meeting in Invercargill of people who were concerned. They were all owners of land in the SILNA Estates, South Island Landless Natives Act land. When the Crown made land purchases in the South Island in the mid-1800s, the Crown guaranteed Māori that they would be given a percentage of the land back for their sustenance and survival. That didn't happen. The Crown just bought everything, and more or less said to Māori "You can stay there, but that's your reserve." So, they gave them reserves, small areas. But Māori - as I said before - browsed and grazed this whole coast. The Māoris who lived in Canterbury, and North Otago, and northern Canterbury, and up into the North Island right up as far as the top of the North Island - they had, for hundreds of years, been making seasonal visits down here to harvest protein. The South Island, and particularly the lower South Island, was protein-rich and people-poor. For hundreds of years, Māori had been coming seasonally to harvest Titi and other protein, as well as to collect or trade for greenstone and other stones. That all changed. I don't want to get into that, because that's part of a bigger picture. But they came down south to harvest Titi, they came down south to harvest Seal meat, they came down south to harvest birds of all other types - including birds that we would say you couldn't possibly be eating, but they did. And they came down here because there were huge numbers of them, and there were no people around. Essentially no people around. But my Ancestors, the Waitaha managed that. We were managers of the resource, and so when parties of northern Māori came down, they came to particular places, and they would state their credentials. There is a bay on the west coast of Stewart Island which I know - I've got a very very ancient name for - which was the Bay of the Talking Chiefs. That was a bay that Waka came to, with a whole group of people. They would state their credentials, state their name and business, and they would then be said "Yes. Ok. You can go and harvest so many kete of this resource, and of that resource. When you've got it all, you come back and tell us - and then you go away again." There was a very well-developed system. That all fell apart at about the time the Warrior Māori first arrived, in fact at the very beginning - in the late 1700s. That all fell apart, and things changed extensively. I don't want to go into that at the moment. But the point that I want to make is that some northern Māori (whānau, hapū, iwi) had been coming here to harvest all the way around this coast. 

CRAWFORD: I would like to put a place holder on those issues, for part two of the interview ... because one of the questions that's going to come up is 'What is it about the Rakiura region that is associated with so much productivity - so much in the way of diversity and abundance of resources?' This is a very special place for a variety of different creatures, Humans included. But when you consider, for example, the Oi or Titi - the Sooty Shearwater in our language - travelling the entire distance of the globe on an annual migration. These animals are not silly. Animals don't do things without very good reason. It is clear to me that there are very good reasons to recognize the special status of the region, but I want to put a place holder on that. Because I think the White Pointers respond in like form. 

MCANERGNEY: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Getting back to 1990, you were talking about a meeting in Invercargill?

MCANERGNEY: I went to this meeting in Invercargill, and the meeting was about what are we going to do about our land. Because the government was going to stop us from milling and felling and clearing the land. We were given the land as a land resource, not as a forest resource. Then in the late 1980s, there was attention being drawn to climate change. Even as far back as that. And there was attention being given to maintaining the cover of forested areas. A lot of the land that was owned by the SILNA people was, and still is, covered in forest. My family had land at Te Waewae Bay, which is just off this map, round west of Tuatapere - where the Humpridge Track starts. We had a Māori Incorporation there, which had 1200 hectares of land, which we had underway a farm development plan. The land had been milled many, many years ago - so, all of the high-quality timber had been taken out. All that was left was a lot of regrowth, and a lot of trees that the millers didn't want at the time. So, we were in the middle of developing that as a large pastoral farm, which would have supported the owners and provided educational grants and all that sort of stuff. I was on the Committee of Management of that farm, due to the insistence of my Mother who was a major shareholder. I went to the meeting in Invercargill, and there was a lot of talk going on. I waited and waited and waited. My family had always said "Never be the first one to speak, Ken. You've been vaccinated with a gramophone needle, so we know you can't stop talking once you get started. But just wait, wait, wait." And I waited. And I listened to all of these old people talking. And then, because of my experience in something called the Town and Country Planning Act, and the Local Government Act, and some other legal aspects of my work, I had a working knowledge of the law. I'd also consulted with a very, very well-known Queen's Counsel just before I'd gone down. I explained to him that the land had been given to my Ancestors - in my view, in compensation for land that had been taken from them, and the guarantees not met. He said there's a wonderful piece of case law, and the matter is referred to as 'Derogation of Grant'. What that essentially is, is that you cannot give with one hand - and take away with the other. He gave me this wonderful decision to read. So, when I got to Invercargill, I listened to all these guys blathering on for ages, and I finally stood up and introduced myself, and did my very amateurish mihi. I said who I was, and what I was, and what I did. I said "I think this is a very clear case of Derogation of Grant. You cannot give with one hand, and take away with the other." The next thing I knew, I was elected to the Committee. And so, for several years I was the Secretary of this Committee. There were several large pieces of land which had been granted to Māori, but the process had never been followed through. One of them was at Lords River. One of these guys at the meeting, after I'd been elected on to the Committee, he was also on the Committee ... he said "A friend of mine is going down to Lords River, a weekend after next to pick up some hunters. Would you guys like to go? You'll get a look at it." I said "Would I what?" So, I flew down from Christchurch to Invercargill, went down to Bluff, joined this fishing vessel at about 6 o'clock in the morning with a couple other members of the Committee. In fact, I think there were three of us. We went down, it was a beautiful morning, and we just motored quietly across Foveaux Strait. I just couldn't cope as the Island got closer. All the old memories started flooding back. I got a sniff of the land as we coasted through the gap down here, between Tia and the mainland. And I thought "Ken, you've been a bloody fool. You left this place 20, 30 years ago - and you haven't been back. Why do you keep frigging around, going to the Marlborough Sounds, when you've got this place here that you're anchored to?" We had a great trip. One of the Ryan whānau came off the birding island there, because it was the middle of the birding season - it was in late April. He gave us a hui of birds, which we immediately cooked up on the fishing boat stove. I went back to Invercargill, staying with a Cousin, and I said "Do you know anybody that's got a crib on Stewart Island that they'd let?" And he said "Yes, our neighbours have got one." I said "Can we speak to them?" He rang them up, they came across the back fence. Next thing I got back to Christchurch, and I said to my then-Wife and my children "We're off to Stewart Island for a week in the May school holidays". We went down to the Island, the weather was terrible - but on the second last day it was fine, and we went out to the Neck, and I showed my Children, grown Children now, where our whānau had been, where their house had been on the Neck. We came back into Golden Bay, we were driving up the hill out of Golden Bay and Diane Smith - Phillip Smith's wife - had picked us up. She was the local real estate agent. She stopped the truck, and said "I've just got to go up here and have a look at this wee crib. It's just come on the market today. The guy's just walked off the island, and he's not coming back." I said "Oh, we'll wait in the truck for you". And the kids said "No. Come on Dad. Let's go up and have a look." So, we went up and had a look. The upshot of it all was, that I climbed up on the roof of this little crib, and I thought "If I trimmed those couple of trees, I get a wonderful view out over Paterson Inlet. It's a funny, little, tiny place, which I described as early Hitler architecture, polite asbestos sheet cladding and a tin roof. But it's in the most wonderful location. Beautiful location." I came down, and I said to Diane Smith "How much does the guy want for the place?", and she said "$18,000", and I said "Right. We'll take it. Don't show it to anybody else." And that was the beginning of the adventure.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, when was that decision?

MCANERGNEY: That was in May 1990. That was when I stepped back onto the Island. I stepped back, and I couldn't leave. I now had my anchor, my crib.

CRAWFORD: You still worked in a professional capacity in Christchurch? Your employment, your profession?

MCANERGNEY: I've just retired at the age of 76.

CRAWFORD: So, from 1990 to 2015 - the final 25 years of that phase of your professional career?

MCANERGNEY: Yep.

CRAWFORD: That's actually a good break point. From 1990 to the present, roughly how much time would you have been spending on the Island in any given year?

MCANERGNEY: In the early years, I'd get down there five or six times a year. It just gradually increased and increased.

CRAWFORD: Those trips would be weekends, weeks, maybe a couple of weeks?

MCANERGNEY: Yes. Never more than two or three weeks perhaps at a time.

CRAWFORD: But over the past 25 years it has increased. What kind of time was it, just prior to your retirement?

MCANERGNEY: Last year, I probably would have been there about eight or nine times, I guess. Because I quite often just look for cheap fares, and I'd fly to Invercargill, and come back again. 

CRAWFORD: Have you got plans for what the post-retirement phase is going to mean for you? Or are you still working on it?

MCANERGNEY: I'm still working on it. I only retired last Friday. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: I didn't know it was that fresh.

MCANERGNEY: I’ve been at the office again today. I've still got my desk and everything where I've been working for almost 30 years. I'll just gradually withdraw from it. But I'm going to contract back under certain aspects of my aviation knowledge which they haven't managed to replace. So, I'll be spending a few days in a month professionally involved with them. I mentioned the SILNA claim, I'm the main claimant for WAI158 - we've got to finish that. I'm also involved in two other claims to the Waitangi Tribunal, which are very time consuming. All to do with Māori issues. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: In a very general sense, what is the extent to which Science has affected your knowledge of Aotearoa, especially the marine environment and its inhabitants? Based on what you've already shared with me, it is quite obvious that Māori culture and knowledge has had a Very High level of contribution to that knowledge. But how would you describe the level of contribution from Science culture and knowledge?

MCANERGNEY: I have some wonderful friends who are Scientists. They never cease to amaze me how detailed they need to be, to achieve peer review, and to achieve what they need to achieve. And what they're driven to achieve. I find it fascinating. I don't think I could be a Scientist, because my Science is in here, and in here, and on my shoulder. Māori Science, as I understand it, was driven by the need to survive and the need to understand. Accumulate information and hand it on. The Science on my Māori side has not stopped. It’s just gone on and on. I think that there is a wonderful interweaving. What I like to do with the Science people I closely align with, is talk to them about our Māori Science and their Science, and try to find some sort of reconciliation. I rank highly the Science that is done by the likes of Otago University in the School of Marine Science. And I have a great deal admiration for Auckland University - I know some people up there in Marine Science. I am full of admiration for them. I rank them very, very highly. But what I would be saying to Scientists these days is, perhaps you need to have a couple of days listening to some silly old fella like me, telling you about the Science that we evolved, and how we formulate it into the Science of survival. I'm sorry, I haven't answered your question.

CRAWFORD: What you're doing is explaining why I'm here. That's what brought me to Aotearoa on this project in the first place. 

MCANERGNEY: But Science in terms of this issue is incomplete and flawed, because Scientists get grants and it’s all competitive and it’s very difficult ...

CRAWFORD: ... and Science, especially as it relates to 'resource management' is very, very political. Resource management Scientists who say otherwise are either fools or liars.

MCANERGNEY: They come, and they do the Science for a few days, they look at this, they look at that, they record sea temperatures or wind directions or whatever it is - and they go away. The Science that I'm talking about is the Science of a lifetime of experience and living in a place and observing. I don't write in my log every day, but I write in it frequently, and I will record what's happened. Just little notes. But that is what we have got to do with creating this time series and this timeline. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I'm going to take the liberty of putting you at a High level, in terms of the extent to which Science culture and knowledge has affected your thinking about Aotearoa's marine environments in the broadest sense.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: What was the first time that you remember hearing about or seeing a White Pointer?

MCANERGNEY: I think probably the first mention that was made was when I was a boy ringnetting, and looking over the side through my bathyscope.

CRAWFORD: In what context would the Shark have been mentioned?

MCANERGNEY: The context was that there was a very large Shark. We were very familiar with what we call Ground Sharks. Its feeding jaw was way back underneath its snout, and it shuffled along the bottom. The first mention that was made, was in relation to my Ancestor Jacky Lee. Out here ...

CRAWFORD: Jacky Lee Island? One of the northern Titi Islands?

MCANERGNEY: There's Jacky Lee Island there, but there's Motunui or Edwards Island. In the 1830s, Jacky Lee was living over here with his wife and family.

CRAWFORD: 'Over here' meaning on the Neck?

MCANERGNEY: On the Neck, at Jacky Lee Bay there. This was in the middle of the period when the Ngāi Tahu People had some huge interfamily wars. They were going around eating their relations. So that was happening. There were also the raids from the north by Te Rauparaha. He had been sent down from the north by the wild whims of the north - nowadays referred to as  Nga Puhi to teach Ngāi Tahu a lesson. Because Ngāi Tahu had come down to the South Island, and they had slaughtered thousands of my Ancestors the Waitaha People. They were told to leave the teachers alone when they went to the South Island. They disobeyed. And so, Te Raupraha and others came down, and gave them what for. Now that had mainly happened up north of Banks Peninsula, but there was talk of raids coming down. There was one famous one that came down, ended at Tuturau, which is just south of Mataura and Gore on the Matuara River. But Māori down here, particularly some Europeans with Māori wives and family, and because of my Ancestor Te Mo, referred to as Timu, her status and her connections with the north, she was nervous and very concerned about the possibilities of being slaughtered. So, Jacky Lee, for his protection and his family's protection, bought an island off Tuawaiki. That's mentioned in various documents. The island he bought was Motunui - that's it there. But when they drew the maps, they put the wrong names on the wrong islands. They put the name 'Jacky Lee' on the wrong island. The island that Jacky Lee bought was that island there, but they named this one 'Jacky Lee'.

CRAWFORD: Your ancestor, Jacky Lee, purchased what is now called Edwards Island?

MCANERGNEY: So, the names have been transposed. I was told this at a very early age. On one of my visits down to the Island, I was friendly with a fisherman. We talked and joked about "You've got the wrong bloody island named after you, mate". He said we would go out there one day, because he was catching Greenbone. We went out to that island, and we went around it. He said it was a great choice, because there was only one landing place. Very easily defensible.

CRAWFORD: The island that is now called Edwards?

MCANERGNEY: Edwards Island, yeah. If the word came that the raids were underway and there was a threat, Jacky Lee - who was living here on the Neck - he had a means of getting across here, and up to Lee Bay where he had a vessel stashed away. He would have gone from there very quickly, out to there and landed all his family, pulled his boat up into the bush. He could have defended them on his own essentially. Because it’s a very difficult place to get ashore on. That's the story I was told as a child. And that was further embellished by talking to people on the Island who are long since deceased. But the upshot of all this was that I went out to Edwards Island ...

CRAWFORD: When was this, roughly?

MCANERGNEY: I would have been about 14 or 15, I suppose. And it was on one of those trips that I was told about the visits of these great Sharks. Mangō Taniwha. "Mangō Taniwha came, as your fucking Ancestors did, to harvest seasonally the Seals that were breeding down here on the Bunker Islets and around here." Those were his words. I questioned this. What was being said was, that you generally didn't need to worry about the Sharks, because they came for the easy prey of Seal pups. They came, and they ate, and when the Seal breeding season ceased - they would go away again.

CRAWFORD: When is the Seal breeding season around Rakiura?

MCANERGNEY: As I understood it, it was shortly after Christmas and through until just after Easter.

CRAWFORD: You were being told that the White Pointers would arrive - perhaps a little bit prior to or at that time - and stay during the time that the Seals pups are available?

MCANERGNEY: They are there during the time when the overweight Seal females were struggling ashore, and out again. And during the time when there was a lot of reproduction going on. Reproduction on the beach when they were distracted. If you go to a Seal colony - and they came after Sea Lions as well - there was always this clustering going on, of bull Seals trying to keep their harem together. So, there was a lot of distraction going on. These old boys, these old fisherman, said that was time. And my old Māori relations said that was the time when the Seals are most distracted, and they fall easy prey to the predators.

CRAWFORD: One important thing that you've mentioned here - that nobody else has said in the interviews - is the idea that it isn't necessarily just that the young Seals are not very experienced swimmers, but also potentially that the female Seals prior to pupping may also be at much higher risk. 

MCANERGNEY: That's as I understand it.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That knowledge was shared with you as a teenager. It was delivered by a local person, but it was knowledge that also stems back many generations. It’s also linked to the cross-generational history of your people and that place.

MCANERGNEY: Through those conversations, I learned something about the dynamic of the harvest, not only by us, not only by people, but also the harvest by others, and the others include Mangō Taniwha - the Great White Shark. What we say in Waitaha-speak ... Waitaha are the people that I descend from. I'm not from Ngāi Tahu, I'm from the people who were here first. The people who were here more than a thousand years ago. We talk about the stories I'm talking about here, as being the real or the whaikororo - the speaking of the Spider at the centre of the web. Because there's no one single line that contributes to all you feel and know, at any one point along your journey. You're anchored back to so many things all the way along. We talk about the Spider web being at the mouth of the cave of knowledge. The cave of knowledge is the receptacle in which all the bones of the Ancestors are. They're all pulling on you, they're all contributing, they're all part of your heritage and part of your story. Part of what makes you. These are all the stories that were told at night. There was no distractions, so the stories, and the knowledge, and the timing - the moon, the phases of the moon, the seasons, the seasonality - everything was logged, and everything was recorded. There was a name for every moon, and there was a name for every day in every moon cycle. The moons were counted from what we now call Mata Ariki, Matariki, around the 6th or 7th of June. From there on, each moon had a name. Each day within each moon had a name. So, they knew from counting off from the relationship of the stars in the sky, from where the sun rose, particularly rose on this coast, this part of the coast, they were able to tell the time. Jacky Lee learned and understood that, is what I am told. Because he plotted information about seasonality of harvest.

CRAWFORD: I think I'm appreciating the sense of time, the very careful sense of time, in this. Not only in terms of understanding the cycles of nature, but also understanding the timing of Human and White Pointer participation in harvesting. I don't want to go away from something without at least asking, respectfully ... I understand if it’s something that we don't talk about in this discussion, but the people that I work with back home in Canada, Ojibway People. There's a very strong sense of meaning in their language - that the name of a thing carries with it knowledge of the thing. I don't know anybody else during these interviews who has referred to the animal that we're discussing in a traditional Māori tongue. Mangō Taniwha. Is there something extra carried by connotation with this name for the White Pointer in Te Reo Māori, in the language?

MCANERGNEY: The animal had several names, depending on whether you were referring to it in general, or whether you're referring to it in particular. The animal was recognized for its amazing qualities as a hunter, and also the female as a Mother - and the way in which she looked after the young.

CRAWFORD: Can you share a little bit more in that regard - in both ways? Both White Pointers as hunter, which a lot of people might think they know something about, but also in terms of White Pointer motherhood, which I think most people would not have heard about.

MCANERGNEY: I'm now going to say something that I wasn’t going to say. But because I think this is important, I think that I can say it. And that is out of respect for what you said about working with your friends, the Ojibway. They, like my Waitaha Ancestors, relied continually on taught and learned information. Taught, learned, recorded and understood. This was a very, very difficult place to live. There were people that lived here all the time - in small numbers. They were what we called the scientists, the recorders, the knowledge holders. They would generally be quite old people who couldn't move much anymore. They would have young, bright individuals with them, to whom they would be constantly passing their knowledge - and who they would be constantly testing to ensure that the knowledge that they held was accurate, was understood, and that they recognized how to see changes. How to see the signs. When to expect the seasonal arrival of not only the creatures of the sea and of the sky, and the resources of the forest. Everything all contributed to their safety, wellbeing, and survival. It was the sustainable management of those resources which was important. That's why I said earlier about the Bay of the Talking Chiefs. It was very stringently controlled. That got out of hand, and many resources have been lost. Many, many, many. The care and attention and observation of Mangō Taniwha, for which there are other names which I'm not sure I will tell you, we'll see how I feel. Related to the relationship that my Ancestors had with it, because not only was it highly respected, highly regarded and feared - but it was also a source of very important materials. So, they were selectively harvested. In general, they tried to harvest the male fish, and not the breeding fish. In Waitaha, we say "It’s always the women that make the most important decisions." Men make decisions quickly based on ego. Women make decisions based on survival. They have the child in here, they have the child at foot. They have the child they're teaching. Teaching is shared by both the women and the men. The men were the guardians of the night, the women the guardians of the day and of the children. And so, the same type of concept existed in the world of the Great White. The male was a brash, serious predator. The female was too. But the female was also driven by the survival of her young. She placed great care and attention on those, because they were the next generation. One of the interesting little things that I remember was that I was told, and have been told again recently, about the rows of teeth - and how quickly they regrow. And the funny little word about children with too many teeth and a crowded mouth. The way in which the Shark dealt with it, was just bite something really hard and break a few teeth off. But that's an aside. The Ancestors harvested the Shark to get the liver, to get the oil, to get the skin, and to some extent to get the teeth. In latter days, the teeth have been seen as a mark of importance or rank. I would never wear a Shark's tooth. It doesn't suit my demeanor and my outlook on life. Be that as it may, the skin was used for fine polishing of stone. You've heard all this before?

CRAWFORD: I have heard bits and pieces. About the Tohunga, and their knowledge system. And I have some basic knowledge of how ancestral Māori used various resources from White Pointers.

MCANERGNEY: The oil was used to help with the polishing. But the oil was also used as a means of a pigment carrier. It was used in the cave drawings, and in decorating. Things like this.

CRAWFORD: What are you showing me right now - just so I have some sense? 

MCANERGNEY: My Tokotoko - my talking stick. Cut from the family lands at Rarakau. The teeth, the skin, the oil, the liver - all very important. And of course, the flesh. But the carefully selected Shark that was harvested down here, was not harvested in the same way that some other Māori harvested them in some other parts of these Islands. As I understand it, I was told they were harvested between the hulls of a double waka. They were essentially hooked, placated using the leaves of a particular tree - which I'm not going to go any further into that at all, at this stage. Then they were essentially lassoed. I don't want to say any more about this because ...

CRAWFORD: That's perfectly fine. I don't want you to be uncomfortable in any way. 

MCANERGNEY: There was a very special way of harvest. This also enabled them to discern the sex of the beast. Also, the beast was turned on its back between the hull of the double waka, if you can imagine that. 

CRAWFORD: I have a hard time imagining that, but I believe you. And it’s interesting that same issue has come up in several other discussions - this idea that identifying the gender of an adult White Pointer can be extremely important when trying to understand their patterns, their specific needs and motivations.

MCANERGNEY: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Specifically with regards to the property of the oil of White Pointers, and its relationship ... either in terms of its preservation qualities or perhaps pigmentation, I've heard about this in a couple of different contexts. I don't know if I'm using the right words here or not, but my understanding is that the mana of the creature is in part related to the mana of what Māori do with that resource. I have heard in some instances that if some people were building an especially important marae, and if they wanted the very best materials - then it wouldn't just necessarily be generic Shark oil that was required. It would be oil of a particular kind of Shark. My understanding is that the White Pointer, Mangō Taniwha is associated with great mana. I don't know if that came through in any of your teachings, or if any of the knowledge that was shared with you. Was there any reference to the mana of White Pointers in that regard?

MCANERGNEY: There were different qualities and attributions given to different mediums that were used. So, in certain circumstances ... my Ancestors never built buildings that were decorated. The Shark oil was principally used to adorn the walls of the teaching places. Are you familiar with the rock art of North Otago?

CRAWFORD: I think I may have heard of these places.

MCANERGNEY: They were the teaching places. And there were other teaching places down here where only the best was used. So, it would be like Michelangelo using the finest quality materials to adorn the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The finest pigmentation, and the finest material, the finest Shark oil would be used. But it would also have its own aura, and its own mystique, and its own special properties. The people who knew and understood that, would know how important it was. 

CRAWFORD: As you were saying that, I was thinking that my people need to understand that the refinement, or the sophistication, of the interaction between your Ancestors and the White Pointers was at a very high level. That they get an impression of that relationship.

MCANERGNEY: Yes.

CRAWFORD: I think it might be a good time to come back to the idea of Aotearoa - specifically Rakiura - being a special place. That White Pointers are here for important business of their own. Feeding is obviously one of many different needs that all animals have to satisfy. They also need to satisfy reproduction needs. They also need to satisfy their own sense of place and migration. They also need to satisfy social commitments as they grow from juveniles to adults. There are a couple of things that you said that I think are extremely strong themes that have emerged in what people have been sharing with me. One of the important things would be the social nature of these creatures. For a long time, White Pointers were portrayed as mindless, apex predators that would have nothing to do with each other individually if they didn't have to. Reproduction is obviously one of those times when at least one male and one female have to get together. But over that past couple of decades, some Scientists have watched them a little bit more closely, and they are starting to realize there's a lot more socially going on with these White pointers than most people - Scientists at least - would have expected. There have been numerous observations that people have shared with me in these interviews that give very strong insight into the social complexity of these White Pointers, both Shark-to-Shark and Shark-to-Human. I was just wondering to what extent your experience, the knowledge that you have gained individually or from contemporaries or from your Ancestors, might bear on the social nature of White Pointers. Do you have any thoughts on this?

MCANERGNEY: Yeah. I think my Ancestors saw them just like us. They saw some of them being fearless individual warriors, hunting singly on their own. But they also saw them hunting in groups for large prey, because they didn't just prey on Seals. There were other times when they hunted and killed other larger sea creatures that might require joint efforts. Like large Sea Lions, like small Whales, Pilot Whales. One of the memories I have is that I was told that the only creature they were fearful of was the Orca. Other than that, they'd have a go at anything. Now if they were going to have a go at something big, then they had a go at it in a group. The only difference being, that the females always tended to be looking after the young. And they came, as I understand it, to these places, because this is where they could hand on to their offspring, the knowledge of this place. Just as my Ancestors handed on to their children, the knowledge of seasonal harvest. Seasonal harvest was when you went to the table, where the table was laden - and there was food for all. But you could not guarantee that table would always be laden. It was only laden for high days and feast days. So, this was Christmas for them. The rest of the time they were out in the wide ocean.

CRAWFORD: Following that aspect of the conversation, connections amongst Indigenous people throughout the islands ... These White Pointers are widely distributed, to say the least. But as we are also finding out now from our Science colleagues, many of these White Pointers are very far ranging as individuals - including their annual and seasonal migrations. Across the Tasman Sea, out to the Pacific and Subantarctic Islands, quite possible back and forth between South Africa. They're off on these very long travels, and they have certain characteristics in these long ranging travels that take them to the other islands where other Indigenous people live. It has come up informally in the discussion about the history of Indigenous people on the islands in a shared sense that they may also know some of these specific, individual White Pointers from their coastal waters. Potentially, known individual White Pointers that cross different geographic and cultural boundaries. What are your thoughts on that?

MCANERGNEY: The Waitaha People are made up of three principal groups. We say in my whānau, in my family, that we emanated from out of Africa and into Asia here and the Ngati Pakau People went around there ...

CRAWFORD: Went around the Bering Strait?

MCANERGNEY: Yes, they went up there, down the coast of the Pacific, down through South America, then came back across here into Polynesia, came down the coast of the Americas, down to South America, then came across to what we now call Easter Island. The Ngati Kurawaka people came away from Asia, and worked their way across the Equatorial Belt, across to South America, and back to Easter Island. The Ngati Rakai People that I whakapapa back into, came down the coast of Australia and Tasmania following the Whales and the Oi, down into the sub-Antarctic, and right down here as far as they could go, they came back up, they revisited - they explored this area very thoroughly, they found there was no people. Everywhere they landed in warmer climes, there were people settled there. After some time in the sub-Antarctic, they journeyed back north, following the Whales again - except that on this return journey north, they came up the west coast of Stewart Island, into the Bay of Singing Whales - Te Waewae Bay - and then up coast of New Zealand. Importantly, the lands were unoccupied.

CRAWFORD: Aotearoa?

MCANERGNEY: These islands where there were no people, there was a huge protein resource, huge forest resource, amazing fisheries. And then they went back into the Pacific, to join the others back at Easter Island - which is the jumping-off point. When they met the other people at Easter Island, they told the news of finding the nesting place of the Oi, which they had seen in huge sun-darkening clouds. 

CRAWFORD: So, up and down the entire Pacific Ocean? 

MCANERGNEY: The sky was black. Have you seen a huge flight of Titi, of Muttonbirds?

CRAWFORD: No.

MCANERGNEY: Unbelievable. Flying protein, flying lunch boxes. They saw them in the north Pacific, in the Sea of Japan, and up in the Bering Sea. They saw them off the coast of the Americas. "Where are these birds going to breed?" That was the question. They were breeding down off the coast of Australia, around the coast of New Zealand, the South Island, and particularly down around Rakiura, Stewart Island, Snares, Bounties, and further south where they laid their eggs in burrows in the soft coastal soils. In the millions. And they harvested the babies. But they also saw Mangō Taniwha in other places. In the north of what I call the Pacific Quadrilateral, in and around the Hawaiian Islands, in and around Pitcairn, in and around Easter Island. Passing by. They were harvested, as I understand, by people in other islands for their various quality materials. Now, I know nothing of this - other than, I was told the Great White or Mangō Taniwha, was seen in other parts of the Pacific. And they recognized that it was a seasonal visitor. It went for the protein, just as we did. If you left it alone, and didn't interfere with it, it would leave you alone. But watch out for it when you're looking in the bottom of your glass bottom box. And don't put your head too far over the side, if it’s around.

CRAWFORD: That sounds like some very wise advice. Before we move on, what if anything have you heard about White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?

MCANERGNEY: I know anecdotally that Great White Sharks have been seen in Nor'West Arm, up here. I was told that there was a Great White Shark sighted up in here. That filled me with some real fear. There's a hut up there that's part of the Great Walk. I know people that have done the Great Walk, and they've got to the hut and the first thing they've done is they rip all their clothes off and go for a swim for a couple of hundred metres offshore in this beautiful Paterson Inlet. Can you imagine what's going to happen if somebody's maimed by a Shark up there? On one of the Great Walks? DOC are going to be looking bloody foolish. 

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: How many White Pointers in the wild have you seen? 

MCANERGNEY: In recent times have seen one. We have seen one.

CRAWFORD: That was off the northern tip of Ulva, two years ago.

MCANERGNEY: The northern tip of Ulva, yes.

CRAWFORD: What time of year was that?

MCANERGNEY: January-February.

CRAWFORD: Please describe to me what happened.

MCANERGNEY: We were linefishing. The Shark came up, had a look at us, and swam by. 

CRAWFORD: A Swim-By, Level 2.

MCANERGNEY: No threat. Just scared the bloody living daylights out of you. I had seen one when I was in my teenage years fishing from a dinghy in Halfmoon Bay, near Ackers Point. I spoke to Buddy Willa about it. He suggested that I close one eye, and stare one-eyed back at the creature, with a firm 'we have to share the Realm of Tangaroa.'

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: Are you aware of anyone else who has encountered White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?

MCANERGNEY: We go fishing out here, off the northern tip of Ulva. We go fishing down here at the Lowrie Reef. But off the northern tip of Ulva just recently ... I'm hoping my Son will find the photographs on his camera ... the kids hooked up a Great White Shark. 

CRAWFORD: They hooked it?

MCANERGNEY: Yep. It grabbed the fish that one of my Grandchildren was hauling up. They were hauling up one of those big Blue Cod. And suddenly 'kachompa' - the fish was grabbed by a Great White Shark that came up and breached the surface. My Son photographed it. The kids were screaming. My Daughter, who was about sixteen at the time, whipped her sheath knife out, and cut the fishing line. The Shark was actually tending to pull the boat, believe it or not. We fish with line that has a quite high breaking strength.

CRAWFORD: How big was this boat?

MCANERGNEY: It's 5 1/2 metres long. It’s just an alloy. It’s not a dinghy - it's bigger than a dinghy. It’s got a bulkhead. But this Shark was a real threat to them. They saw it as a major threat. 

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

CRAWFORD: I think that this discussion could probably go on for days and days. I know it could. The intention is not to suck every last bit of knowledge out of you. It would be a fool’s errand, and it would be disrespectful. I would, if you're ok with this, spend just a little bit of time talking about the effects of the cage dive operations. That which has been the subject of much controversy - and some very specific attention that you personally have placed on it with, regards to the time you spent with people on the island getting their thinking together. But also serving as a spokesperson, as I understand it, for the islands - with regards to the Crown and the Crown's representatives in a management sense. 

MCANERGNEY: I venture to suggest you're using the wrong terminology. The Crown and the Crown representatives are the people who generally don't change. Who I spoke to, were members of Parliament - who do review and change legislation from time to time.

CRAWFORD: Not the bureaucrats, but the elected politicians?

MCANERGNEY: Yeah. The people who administer and manage the Department of Conservation, I generally refer to as the Crown. They are the agents of the Government. And they remain there as that layer of management. Above them are the elected representatives, the Members of Parliament. The Government sets the policies, etc, and the dictates of the Crown.

CRAWFORD: And you were speaking to the elected politicians?

MCANERGNEY: I was speaking to the elected politicians.

CRAWFORD: Thank you for the clarification. In terms of the discussion that has been taking place - and is far from over - people have focussed on the effects. Just so you and I have a common denominator in this discussion, here is a basic description of the cage diving operations. Their methods went from exploratory to a business model, about eight or nine years ago. There was one operator, then two. They settled partly for reasons of navigation, in terms of protection from prevailing winds, on what is now Edwards Island. Partly, the other decision-making factor was their ability to generate a response by the White Sharks in response to what they were doing to attract them to the cage. They steam over to station next to Edwards Island. Now the DOC permit says Edwards Island, and only Edwards Island. Prior to last year, there was no permit and different things were used. There were some artificial attractants, like a cut-out piece of a carpet in the shape of a Seal, that at times was considered to be very effective by at least one of the operators. There was feeding at different times. When the permit came in, they can only use a berley mince which is relatively fine. A fish is also allowed as a throw bait, for the purpose of attracting an individual White Pointer past the cage. But the operators, under the permit, are supposed to do everything possible to make sure that the White Pointers do not receive feed - don't get their mouth around the throw bait. The cage is in the water, White Pointers arrive, bait on a rope, punters in the cage, punters have their experience and take their pictures, cycle in and out of the cage for part of the day, and then the operators pack up and go home. For that version of cage diving, there are many different opinions from many different people about if and how the cage dive operations can have an effect on the White Pointers. What I'd like to do is give you an opportunity at that general level, to share your thoughts about the effects of cage dive operations. 

MCANERGNEY: I think you might have, I hope, come to the conclusion that my Ancestors and I have a great deal of respect for this creature. We revere it, and speak of it in awe and wonder. It has a way of doing business which has developed over the millennia, over millions of years. It’s been coming to take its natural prey, in balance with that resource. I am appalled that the Crown Agency has seen fit to allow the antagonization, if there is such a word, of this creature - by teasing it with a fish that it can't catch. Or by having it drawn to an area, because of the scent or aroma or whatever it is of berley. My own view is that they have over these last few years modified the behaviour, of not just random creatures, not just random Shark A, B, C, D or whatever ... as I understand it, Sharks have been tagged, and identified, and given names by Scientists or even perhaps the Shark dive people. They're recognizable. And now their behaviour has been modified because of the teasing of them, the antagonising of them. They're making them cross, they're making them furious, changing their behaviour. And that teasing, and non-feeding, and the berley etc, is all associated with the presence of a vessel with people and their voices, plus the noise from the boat engines.

CRAWFORD: Let's slow down a little bit, please. See if I can understand your thinking on a few key issues. First, do you think that the White Pointers associate the place where cage dive operations are running, with the smell of food - such that when the cage dive boats are gone, that they hang around that place more than they would have otherwise?

MCANERGNEY: I haven't thought about that. I don't know that I can answer that question.

CRAWFORD: That's completely fine. I don't mean to push. For any of these questions, that type of response is totally appropriate.

MCANERGNEY: I could formulate an opinion about it.

CRAWFORD: And I hope you feel free to, as well. But also realize that I look to you in an expanded sense. When you draw on the knowledge of your Ancestors especially, was it their understanding that the White Pointers exhibited a knowledge of place in the world - that the White Pointers in turn focussed on specific places?

MCANERGNEY: Oh, absolutely. They totally focussed on place. But they also focussed on other things. My Ancestors called to the Shark. The conch was one of the recognized calls to the Shark. They called the Shark to make other places safe. Because we wanted to land and harvest Seal pups as well. Shark responds to all of its many senses. It is drawn to place, just as we know that the mouth of that river under a certain moon is going to be a place we can harvest Eel or Kani Kana or Koura. They've survived all these years because of very highly-honed sense of place and time of year and seasonality of wildlife. They see the moon, they see the length of day, they see the length of night, they recognize all of that just as we do. They know at a certain moon, dinner is going to be waiting.

CRAWFORD: Let's add one additional factor, then. Let's add the boat. Do you think that the White Pointers, after experiencing these cave dive operations where there's the smell of food and the presence of the boat - do you think that afterward, the White Pointers will respond differently to boats? Either more attracted to them, or perhaps they might avoid. [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]

MCANERGNEY: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the White Pointers would associate and respond to vessels differently, after experiencing cage dive operations?

MCANERGNEY: I'm sure they do. In my view, they associate. I've used the word on several occasions, because I do a lot of work in noise. I employ the world's leading acoustic consultancy. The people I employ, I've talked with them about this. I've talked with the principal about it, and he introduced me to this term some four or five years ago - the 'acoustic footprint' of a vessel. And it’s not just the engine, it’s the hull, it’s the whole sound - the reverberation of that engine, of that boat, of that propeller. And we've seen the Sharks following the Argo, one of the cage dive boats, into Paterson Inlet. Now that is being drawn by that vessel, because the Shark associates that vessel and that sound with food. 

CRAWFORD: Even if we expand the signature of a vessel to include electromagnetic as well as acoustic components, the issue is still the White Pointer's ability to detect, distinguish and remember different vessels. Based on what you said, I think you are saying that these White Pointers do indeed have these kinds of capacities. But you also said something else that I have been focussing on - following behaviour. I am trying to get as close as possible to the original observation of White Pointers following the Shark cage tour dive boats into Halfmoon Bay or Paterson Inlet. What do you know of that following behaviour?

MCANERGNEY: I've heard of it occurring.

CRAWFORD: Please tell me where and when.

MCANERGNEY: We were in Golden Bay, at the jetty below where my crib is. The Argo came into Golden Bay, and there were kids playing on the wharf. And the Skipper called out, as I recall, "There's a Shark following me! Get out of the water!"

CRAWFORD: The Skipper of the Argo, Peter Scott, yelled out to the kids on the wharf?

MCANERGNEY: Yes. Have you spoken to Richard Squires?

CRAWFORD: He is on the interview list for my final trip to Rakiura. 

MCANERGNEY: Richard Squires has got a boat of probably a similar sort of vintage to the Argo. It’s probably got a bloody old Gardner or some other diesel. An old thumper. I've tabled at Parliament an affidavit-like-statement that I drew up out of a conversation with him, and a newsletter to the editor that I had from him, that talked about a Shark following his boat to three different fishing places - out of the Bunker Islets, and then following his boat back into the Bay. 

CRAWFORD: 'His' meaning Richard's boat?

MCANERGNEY: This is Richard, Squizzy Squires. He's got a boat called Lo Loma.

CRAWFORD: And he has described White Pointers following his boat?

MCANERGNEY: He's described Sharks following his boat. In my view, they're following his boat, because it’s got a similar acoustic footprint. And he’s got people on it talking, they're linefishing, they're tourists out linefishing. He's had a Shark attack a buoy that was tied at the stern of his vessel. You need to talk to him.

CRAWFORD: I certainly will. We're already scheduled.

MCANERGNEY: I've been fishing in Paterson Inlet regularly and frequently since 1990. I said before that all my fishing in the early days was in Halfmoon Bay, but since we now have a place in Golden Bay, that's where I have my boat. My mooring is down there at the Golden Bay wharf. Because I know several nice little fishing spots there that are five minutes away from the wharf, I tend to fish there. 

CRAWFORD: Linefishing?

MCANERGNEY: This is linefishing. I also dive there.

CRAWFORD: Freedive?

MCANERGNEY: Freedive in a wetsuit, with a snorkel. I don't do so much now because I'm old, but I have done it over the years. I wouldn't go in the water now. I'll come back to that. But over the last maybe three or four years, we have experienced Great White Sharks in Paterson Inlet. They have never been there before. Why are they there? Because in easterly conditions, the Argo has come and moored off the Golden Bay wharf. In easterly conditions, a mooring off the Golden Bay wharf is a nice little cosy place to be. He would normally moor out in Halfmoon Bay, where all the other fishing boats are. In a westerly, that's fine. But in an easterly, the wind comes straight in. So, he would come down around Acker's Point, down around Native Island. If the tide was really high, he might go through the Native Island Passage here, and up into Golden Bay. The encounters with Sharks in Paterson Inlet, that's happened now a couple of times over the last two or three years. That's because they're coming into Paterson Inlet. They are following vessels into Paterson Inlet, and there are sources of food in Paterson Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: Let’s put a special placeholder on the food in Paterson Inlet, for a second. Let’s go back to the following behaviour - specifically seeing a White Pointer following the Argo, or whatever cage dive vessel is that's being used now. You've already identified Squizzy as being one first-hand eyewitness. Do you know anybody else that has directly observed a White Pointer following the cage dive boats?

MCANERGNEY: Have you spoken to Brett Hamilton?

CRAWFORD: Yes, I've interviewed Brett. He's got some very insightful interactions that he described for me. 

MCANERGNEY: I think Richard Squires is the one you need to speak to. I haven't observed a Shark following. I've observed what I believe is a changed behaviour. 

CRAWFORD: Are you aware of changes in the general community's observations of White Pointers in Paterson Inlet? 

MCANERGNEY: There has been in my lifetime, and particularly over the last few decades, increasingly since 1990 - I believe there are more Seals. If there's more food, there are going to be more predators. The learned behaviour. I've talked about the female Shark handing on the information about place and time to her young. In the last three or four decades, there would have been several major female visits, and as a result more Sharks may be in the area. We are planning to equip a recording form for every sightseer, seagoer, or whatever person who's going to be going to sea around the Bays, be it Halfmoon Bay, Golden Bay, Horseshoe Bay. A form on which they're going to record every sighting. And it’s going to have day, time of day, weather conditions, etc.

CRAWFORD: The kind of data that a Scientist would hope for?

MCANERGNEY: Exactly. We're going to develop our own Science. I'm astounded that this hasn't happened already. It’s largely down to me going there and having these ideas and thinking I'll get around to it. I'm focussed on this now, and I'm going to have more time. We are going to develop our own Science. We are going to have a growing record of "I saw a Great White Shark here, at a certain time of day, this is what it did, these are the circumstances, this is what I was doing."

CRAWFORD: I think the organization of that kind of flax-roots knowledge would be enormously valuable over the long term.

MCANERGNEY: Many, many times I have been fishing off the northern tip of Ulva, and I have thought I'm going to go over the side here because I want to have a look at this reef. I won't do it now. I'd be crazy. The important thing about this is, that this has interfered with my rights guaranteed to me under the Treaty of Waitangi, Article 2. Which guarantees me rights to kaimoana. As a person of Māori descent, I was guaranteed under Article 2 - rights to kaimoana. In allowing this to take place, the Department of Conservation has permitted the modification of the behaviour of these predators, to the extent that I can't go into the water. I take my children and my grandchildren to the water of particular bays, and I instruct them in the ancient matters. Our respect for the sea, our respect for all of the creatures of the sea, when we take them, how we take them, what we do with them, the ceremonies that I undertake - these are age-old ceremonies. My friend Philip Smith has, since he's been this high, been going to Herekopare for Muttonbirding. He and his whānau have supplemented their diet by going into the sea to harvest Kina, Pāua, Greenbone, Crayfish, handline for Blue Cod from his dinghy just off his landing at Herekopare. Can't do it anymore. Too frightened. Zane Smith will tell you the same thing. Muttonbirding at Herekopare - it’s a stone's throw from the Shark cage diving island. This is interfering with our rights under Article 2 of the Treaty. And that's the claim which we are going to file in the new year. I wasn't going to tell you that. This is not being broadcast, so it’s ok. That's where we're headed to. DOC is meant to be in a partnership with Māori. Partnership my bloody eye. They totally disregard the Māori people on Stewart Island. They totally disregard them. They do all their talking with people in Bluff. Bluff people think they speak for the Island, but they don't speak for me. We are residents, we are ratepayers, we are people who are at that place every opportunity in our lives to be there. We are the people of the land, of Rakiura. They merely go for seasonal harvest. We regard ourselves as the guardians of this place and of its resources. You see, I work in the Resource Management Act a lot, and many times it's been drummed into me what consultation is. You go to the people who are going to be affected by something that you're wanting to do. You don't go and say "We've got a plan, we're coming to consult you." You go to the people and you say "We've got a problem. Here's our problem. You've got a problem. They've got a problem. Somebody else has got a problem. Get everybody together to put the problem on the table." You identify the problem, then you listen to everybody, and you try to find a pathway. DOC have got no idea. In Paterson Inlet, we're finding Sharks up here. In this part of Paterson Inlet, there are Mussel Farms, there are Salmon Farms, there are divers who are in the water every day.

CRAWFORD: I've interviewed some of them.

MCANERGNEY: Good. They have to have health and safety officers, health and safety plans, they've got everything in place. They'll have bloody forms they all have to read and sign, and processes they have to go through. And what's the one thing that they haven't got? They haven't got protection from a Shark that's going to come in there one day, see a diver in the water, and go munch. It mightn't kill the person -but it might take their bloody leg or arm off. And then, where will DOC be? What I'm saying is that I want to see a fair deal for those people that live and work on the Island.

CRAWFORD: Absolutely. It’s a different concept of risk evaluation and risk mitigation. Every time you drive your car out on the highway, you accept with prior and informed consent, an element of risk. And it’s not so much that you might drive off the road as the other guy might come into your lane. But you accept that when you drive. In this context, people are not really aware of the risks with the White Pointers. It seems clear that the Crown has not done what it needed to do by compiling the necessary knowledge, their own Science as well as Māori and Local, with which to really evaluate and manage the risk. 

MCANERGNEY: I just want to make one tiny point. One of the critical points in my approach to this whole thing is that I, because of who I am and because of my lifetime interest in this place, and the whole thing about the seasonal harvest by my Ancestors - but also by all of the other creatures ... the birds know when to go for the Miro Berries, they know when the Fuchsia is flowering, they know when the Fuchsia is berrying, they know all of these things instinctively. That Shark knows instinctively to go to certain places to harvest Seals and Seal pups. We have, in my whānau, the greatest respect for that amazing creature, particularly for the female with whom we align very carefully. And to think that an Agency of the Crown can allow that animal to be treated so disrespectfully, infuriates me. The other things are part of it, all of this other stuff. But that is what focussed my attention initially. I've got notebooks, I've got dozens of them - full of stuff about this place and about these resources. I just cannot abide, as I said, I can't stand by. We know not to shine lights in the eyes of the Kiwis, we know not to interfere with the Seals and the Sea Lions, we know to respect Nature. And yet an Agency of the Crown, the Department of Conservation, is allowing this interference to go on. For what? For tourist dollar. The point is going to come, when their will be an inquiry. I've researched the Coroner's Act, the Coroner can do nothing. The only way we can get anywhere is by raising a real storm now. And we are going to do that, come hell or high water. The Department of Conservation has got to stop this practice. It’s got to be stopped. These creatures have got to be able to roam these seas freely, and to come and take their seasonal harvest, just as we do. Without hindrance, without interference.

Copyright © 2021 Ken McAnergney and Steve Crawford