Joe Cave
YOB: 1942
Experience: Commercial Fisherman, Fish Farmer, Businessman
Regions: Fiordland, Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait
Interview Location: Christchurch, NZ
Interview Date: 23 December 2015
Post Date: 05 April 2020; Copyright © 2020 Joseph Cave and Steve Crawford
1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS
CRAWFORD: Joe, where and when were you born?
CAVE: England, Whitley Bay in 1942. I'm 73.
CRAWFORD: When did you emigrate to New Zealand?
CAVE: 1961.
CRAWFORD: Where did you go when you emigrated?
CAVE: Went to Balfour, around by Gore. Then, because my reason for coming here was to go shooting Deer, I joined the Forestry and became a Deer culler.
CRAWFORD: At what point did you start spending significant periods of time near, on, or around coastal waters?
CAVE: In England I spent a lot of time. I was always near the water fishing. I had my own little dinghy. Then I came over here, bought a 12-foot aluminium dinghy, took it to Breaksea and started. Breaksea's up in the Fiordland area.
CRAWFORD: You mentioned previously about going to school. Where did you go to school, and for what program?
CAVE: It was just grammar schools and secondary schools. But they have a thing called the 'eleven-plus.' It's an arcane English system. If you pass the eleven-plus exam, you're deemed good enough to go to a grammar school. Its a crock of shit, really.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Any post-secondary education? College or university?
CAVE: I went to varsity actually here after Deer culling, because I was worried if I had any injuries that precluded me doing an active job. I really wanted something that I could still be a meaningful part of society. So, I got a degree in radio physics.
CRAWFORD: What institution?
CAVE: Victoria University I graduated.
CRAWFORD: At the baccalaureate level? Did you do anything beyond the BSc?
CAVE: The BSc was it. Because I realized there are some very intelligent people in the world, and I decided I wasn't one of them. [chuckles]
CRAWFORD: I think I can share with you that both the smartest and the stupidest people I've ever met are at universities. Ok. You had a dinghy, and you said you took it up to Fiordland?
CAVE: In Breaksea Sound.
CRAWFORD: Was that for recreation?
CAVE: No, no. That was commercial.
CRAWFORD: What were you fishing for?
CAVE: Crayfish.
CRAWFORD: Was there a season for Crayfish back then?
CAVE: No. We fished all year.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Was that a full-time occupation?
CAVE: We had to fly in to Breaksea Sound. We flew all our supplies in, flew the fish out, relying on planes to service.
CRAWFORD: And that started approximately when?
CAVE: Started in '67.
CRAWFORD: Did you do that for multiple years?
CAVE: I graduated from a dinghy to a bigger boat to a bigger boat to a bigger boat.
CRAWFORD: Did you change vessels, but stay working the same region?
CAVE: No. In Breaksea, we were probably there for three years max.
CRAWFORD: Ok. What was your first full fishing boat? What size?
CAVE: About 27 feet.
CRAWFORD: You kept that for a year or two?
CAVE: Kept that for about three years. A boat called the [Stormbird??]. It's well-known down on Stewart Island.
CRAWFORD: At the time, you were still fishing Breaksea with her?
CAVE: Yeah, fishing Breaksea. And then I took it down to Stewart Island.
CRAWFORD: Was that the first time that you spent a significant amount of time fishing around Stewart Island specifically?
CAVE: Yes. It was the first time I caught a Great White Shark, as well.
CRAWFORD: Ok. We'll get to that in part two of the interview. If I'm doing my maths right, it was about 1970 when you relocated to Stewart Island?
CAVE: Moved the Island ... '70, '71 yep.
CRAWFORD: Did you have a place in Halfmoon Bay that you were fish from full-time?
CAVE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: What was the size of the next vessel?
CAVE: Then we got a 32 foot [name of this 32 foot vessel??]. And then in 1978, we bought a 49-foot vessel which is still on Stewart Island, called the [Aaron??]. Gary Neave, you might have met Gary. He currently owns it. Then we sold that in '83 and we bought the McLaughlin.
CRAWFORD: 1983 for the McLaughlin. Roughly, when did you stop fishing?
CAVE: Late-90s.
CRAWFORD: So, you were commercial fishing from 1970 to almost 2000. Thirty years, through a variety of different vessels. Were there different types of fishing over that thirty-year period? Or did you get into a routine where you were doing generally the same kinds of things?
CAVE: Mainly Crayfish during the Crayfish season. In the off-season, did a little bit of Blue Cod - not much. And then prepared the gear for the next Crayfish season. We'd take the boat away in June, and go up to Breaksea ... that's including the 27-foot boat. We had a barge in Breaksea I had a quarter share in, and we use to go fish up there. Because you just don't catch Crayfish all year round, out of Stewart Island. But you do up there, for a whole variety of reasons. So we use to go away in June, catch a tonne of 'tails' which is equivalent to about three tonne of live Crayfish. It would start the season off, and we'd come back middle of July, get the gear ready, and start fishing out here.
CRAWFORD: 'Out here' meaning off Paterson Inlet and the Bays ...
CAVE: Mainly slightly north of that line. Virtually due east and north of a line set out of the Bay. So we primarily fish there. That was early on. When we got bigger boats, we went down and spread our wings and fished the Traps.
CRAWFORD: When was that shift, from fishing primarily off the northeastern of Stewart Island to broader ranges, offshore waters?
CAVE: When we got the bigger boat, which was 1978 I believe.
CRAWFORD: Right. Let's focus on that period when you were fishing in the off-season ... that was consistently after having gone up to Fiordland for Crayfishing?
CAVE: Probably for about four years after we started.
CRAWFORD: Did that taper off?
CAVE: Well, no. We were up there in the McLaughlin. Yeah, we were up there virtually every year, probably through '86-'87.
CRAWFORD: Pretty close to the end of that period. Any Crayfishing down the southwestern corner of Stewart Island?
CAVE: Never fished down there at all. Fished the Traps and the Snares for Crayfish.
CRAWFORD: In the off-season what were your target species?
CAVE: We'd stay down here till after Christmas, normally. When we had the big boat, we got the Snares, and that tidied up February maybe a little bit into March. Then we had off three or four months, and then started again.
CRAWFORD: When you were fishing, not for Crayfish, what species of fish were you targeting?
CAVE: The wetfishing was primarily Cod and Groper. But I wouldn't want to give an impression that I was a full-time Cod man. We weren't really Blue Cod - we caught a few Cod, but it wasn't really in a money-making way. We dived and we caught a few Pāuas as well. But not like the Pāua guys, not in the same way.
CRAWFORD: When you were fishing Cod, were you linefishing, were you setnetting, or were you Codpotting?
CAVE: Linefishing and Codpots.
CRAWFORD: When did you bring Codpots into it? Or were the Codpots in the fishery from the beginning?
CAVE: Codpots were there from the beginning. I liked linefishing too, cause you get Groper.
CRAWFORD: Did you have any setnets that you were working back then?
CAVE: We had a lot of setnets when we were Crayfishing, for the bait. We always used setnets right from the word 'go.' Up to 10 setnets. We fished setnets from 1967 onwards. A lot of people when I came to Stewart Island didn't realize it. It was easy to catch Cod. Really easy, like you put a pot down and get fifty Cod. But Cod aren't a good Crayfish bait. If you want the Crayfish, you've got to give them the very best food. And we soon worked it out that Cod wasn't the best food.
CRAWFORD: I'm dying to know. What did you figure the best food was?
CAVE: Trumpeter was probably one of the best. Or Greenbone or Butterfish. But we very rarely set ... 90 or 95% of the Islands where we started, we were using Codpots to catch bait fish for Crayfish. And then we found that net fish were so superior, we were outfishing everyone. Caused a bit of strife.
CRAWFORD: The setnets then that you were working in order to get bait for the Crayfish, those were relatively short straps?
CAVE: 60 metre.
CRAWFORD: 60 metre length. And what kind of mesh on those nets?
CAVE: 4-1/4, 4-1/2 inch.
CRAWFORD: Was that a pretty consistent fishing pattern for that thirty-year period? Some change in vessels, some change in bait, but in general the pattern was the same?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And through that period, you always primarily Crayfished?
CAVE: Yeah, 90% income from Crayfish.
CRAWFORD: I'm less interested in terms of income, but in terms of your total fishing effort?
CAVE: Probably still 90% Crayfishing, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Late 1990s you wrapped up your commercial fishing career?
CAVE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Was it a clean break, or did it gradually decline?
CAVE: It was reasonably clean, because we were starting to actually market the Lobster. We were the first out of Southland to export live Lobster. We started it. Not that it was any great move to start it, cause they were doing it in the North Island. We figured we could do it in the South Island as well. So, that's what we did.
CRAWFORD: You shifted then more into marketing and sales?
CAVE: More business, yeah.
CRAWFORD: And less time on the water?
CAVE: Yeah, yeah.
CRAWFORD: At what point were you no longer on the water for significant time?
CAVE: Probably somewhere '95 to '97.
CRAWFORD: Ok. From that point to the present, have there been any periods of time when you went back and spent any significant periods on the water? Anything like that?
CAVE: No.
2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS
CRAWFORD: How would you rank the contribution of Science culture and knowledge to your understanding about New Zealand marine ecology in general? How much of an effect has Science had on your thinking?
CAVE: Science rules my life. I'm fascinated to learn.
CRAWFORD: Ok. We'll put you at Very High. Same question, this time about the Indigenous side? How much has Māori culture and knowledge had an effect on your understanding of the marine system? Where would you rank that?
CAVE: That's very difficult. I don't know that I can answer. My ex-Wife is Māori, my Son Stuart's part-Māori. Most New Zealanders are part-Māori. You respect their culture. You don't want it rammed down your throat. You don't want it to be so much a part of the news that you can't understand the news. I'm against that.
CRAWFORD: I know its a difficult question, but would you put yourself at a Medium maybe in that regard?
CAVE: Medium, maybe.
3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE
CRAWFORD: Prior to you incidentally catching that first White Pointer in your bait setnet, had you heard about White Pointers from any of the other locals, any of the other fisherman?
CAVE: We hadn't. It's hard to know what came first, the chicken or the egg. When we did talk, there were some old stories about Smoky Joe, which was a big Shark that use to hang around the boats up in Smoky Beach. Smoky's up here. He was called Smoky Joe. [Bones McKaye??] used to talk about one around Doughboy - I think it was Doughboy. Round the other side of the Island. They'd see it, not a lot, but they'd try and catch it. But they didn't. There certainly wasn't a lot of stories about Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Was anybody else seeing or catching White Pointers back when you were fishing out of Stewart Island? That you were aware of?
CAVE: No, no.
CRAWFORD: Nobody else was reporting anything in Paterson Inlet or either of the Bays?
CAVE: No.
CRAWFORD: What about the Titi Islands? Did people see White Pointers out there?
CAVE: No. This was our main patch where we fished. We set nets all round these islands, all the time. We permanently had six, eight, whatever, nets for the bait. Always, every day, every night. They were permanently set, cleaned, reset.
CRAWFORD: What season would those bait setnets be fishing?
CAVE: They'd be fished right up to after Christmas.
CRAWFORD: When did they start?
CAVE: From August through probably ... we'd set them to take bait down to Snares, so that was right till probably February. Because it's good bait. You couldn't catch bait down at the Snares, you can't set nets down there.
CRAWFORD: So, other than a couple incidental White Pointers getting caught in setnets, you never saw any of them in the wild? No observations?
CAVE: No. No fins, and the like.
CRAWFORD: And nobody else did either? To your knowledge?
CAVE: The Dawsons saw one round Horseshoe Point. It was big news round the Bay. That was probably twenty years ago. If a Shark was seen, on very very rare occasions, it would be big news in the Bay.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember at any point hearing about people using baited barrels to target White Pointers in the Bay?
CAVE: Not in the Bay, because I would have heard about it. But it is a technique, it avoids putting too much strain on the hook. They tow this barrel around. They do it with Tuna, the big ones - they let those go on a buoy or a set of buoys, and it tows them there for a while. It tires them. It's sort of a standard techniqe.
CRAWFORD: Ok. But in terms of actually targeting White Pointers, did you ever hear about anybody using baited hooks floating from barrels left out in the Bay?
CAVE: Not in the Bay, no.
CRAWFORD: Or anywhere else around the Island?
CAVE: Someone might have seen one once, and thought about it. But it's very difficult to construct a good Shark hook, because of how strong they are - they'll just bend them. You've only got a certain limit on the force you can exert, because of the buoyancy.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's move now to more recent times. Have you heard about, or seeing anything, regarding an increase in Shark sightings around Stewart Island?
CAVE: I honestly don't know, because I've been away from the Bay. What happened ... it was the seed that grew the tree. Either Department of Conservation or NIWA wanted to know how many White Sharks there were. They took ... Stu was involved I think, and some other people ... DOC took them off the corner of Bench Island and used Tuna for chum. I don't know when that was - you can find out from them. That was the first I heard that there was such a large population. I knew they were out there, but didn't know it was such a resident population.
CRAWFORD: That was the beginning of DOC's yearly field research program around there?
CAVE: I'm not sure it was yearly, but it could have been.
CRAWFORD: Clinton Duffy at DOC has told me about it. He's agreed to be interviewed. Do you know him?
CAVE: I've heard of him.
CRAWFORD: Clinton and Malcom Francis ran a White Pointer field program. I'm still piecing together what few bits and pieces that I've been able to find out about it. But you weren't on the scene for that?
CAVE: I knew about it. But I'd left the Island after the divorce. I left the Island about 2000, but I stay in touch with my Son.
CRAWFORD: Right. But the question is actually, when did you start hearing that people were seeing White Pointers more around there?
CAVE: Considerably after that DOC project.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Have you heard about anybody reporting they were being harassed by White Pointers?
CAVE: Well, it wasn't till the Shark cage operations began, that the stories started - from my recollection. The stories started to emerge on a regular basis. [Alistair Reid??], if you talked with him, we've got a Mussel farm. And the things are right on Paterson's, by the Inlet. Following the boat. That's unheard of. He's told me that. So, you'll have to get that first-hand from him. [Alistair Reid??], he's down on the Island at the moment.
CRAWFORD: Ok. You indicated very briefly, it came as something of a surprise - the results of the DOC field program giving an indication to people that there were more White Pointers out there than what people had thought?
CAVE: Yeah, if someone had asked me, I would have thought there might be a resident population of fifteen or twenty. But not more.
CRAWFORD: You've used two key ideas there - residency and abundance. And you put a number on it, but a relatively small number?
CAVE: Based on the frequency. We regularly caught Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Right. Regularly caught, but relatively low frequency. And that was why I was asking you about any seasonality to the catches. It was a low number, but you don't remember being impressed that it was only during the summers, or anything like that?
CAVE: No.
CRAWFORD: That supports the idea that at least some of the White pointers are there year-round.
CAVE: I would think that would be right.
CRAWFORD: What if anything do you know about the longer or broader results from the DOC research program?
CAVE: I don't know. Except they came back with a figure of 35 from memory. Or more.
CRAWFORD: So, a greater number of White Pointers. Do you remember anything at all about the satellite tagging data, or anything like that?
CAVE: No, no. I do know from my other interests that they travel a long long, long way.
CRAWFORD: So, it wouldn't be surprising for you to find out that some of the White Pointers go on fairly extensive migrations?
CAVE: Australia and beyond.
CRAWFORD: Given that some of these White Pointers are spending at least some of the time around Stewart Island, do you have a sense of why they might going there? Would it be for feeding or reproduction or socialization - anything like that?
CAVE: Fur Seals.
CRAWFORD: Why do you think that?
CAVE: Well, I say it on an anecdotal basis, because that's where they're primarily to be seen - around Bench Island. There's a lot of Seals to be seen out there. A lot. Where they are actually Shark cage diving now, there's not as many. The major population is Bunkers and on Bench. Thats where they learn to swim. You'd have to ask DOC. But we set nets there all the time. We caught Seals in the nets.
CRAWFORD: Really?
CAVE: Yes, and I felt sick about it. One day off Bunkers we caught about fifteen pups. I've never set there since. It made me feel sick.
CRAWFORD: in a very general sense, for the time that you were spending on the water, do you remember any pattern in the abundance of Seals? Any trend in terms of the number of Seals that were out there?
CAVE: No, no.
CRAWFORD: You think the White Pointers are there for the food, the Seals. Did you ever hear the old-timers or anybody else talk about it potentially being a site for courtship and mating? For reproduction of the White Pointers?
CAVE: No, no. It begs the question, if it was a courtship thing, what attracts them to where the Seal colonies are? They have a feed while they're also attending to the other?
CRAWFORD: It could be the convergence of multiple needs.
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: You said that when your Shark nets were set off Bathing Beach and lifted that time, they had two White Pointers in them?
CAVE: That's the ones they saw from the plane.
CRAWFORD: Right. But that's an instance where you have two White Pointers, in close proximity. Do you remember hearing anything about those Sharks swimming together or were they independent? Did you hear anything in that regard?
CAVE: Well, the Pilot said they were swimming together.
CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember hearing about White Pointers swimming in groups? Two or more animals swimming together?
CAVE: Never heard. Except, obviously they are now, because they are bringing them to the cages.
CRAWFORD: Right. But once again, there are two possible things that can be at play there. One possibility is that you've got multiple individual fish that are all responding to a similar environmental cue, without any positive social response to each other. There's also the possibility you've got social structure amongst these White Pointers and that they could be out there swimming in cohesive packs of two or more. But you didn't hear about that?
CAVE: No.
CRAWFORD: Alright. You mentioned the inquisitiveness or the curiousness of these White Pointers. I want to stretch back to your early days, when you first started fishing out of Halfmoon Bay. Did you hear from people about the curiousness of these Sharks? About the natural tendency for them to investigate things?
CAVE: Only from Smoky Joe. The fisherman's legend about Smoky Joe. Over at Smoky, when they were cleaning Cod in there, they'd see the Shark and they'd try to catch it. That's the only sort of thing.
CRAWFORD: Ok. You had mentioned before about the fish shed at Halfmoon Bay. You were not just a fisherman providing fish for processing, but I think you said you were also running this as an operation. You said something about effluent coming from the fish shed?
CAVE: It's not really effluent. It's the frames of the Cod, the guts and the heads and whatever. We'd save them up. There'd be probably twenty cases, and they'd go out in a dinghy, way out into the tide. And it'd all be dumped, probably two miles outside the Bay.
CRAWFORD: Outside the Bay?
CAVE: Outside the Bay. It's the fisherman coming in ... the pied piper is coming in. I campaigned, and I'll be on record, I was on the Stewart Island Fishermen's Coop ... about cleaning fish, on the moorings in the Bay. There was one fellow who was cleaning his fish just outside the Bay. He was always there. He used to see a Shark there.
CRAWFORD: 'Just outside the Bay' ... as in Dead Man Bay?
CAVE: Dead Man's, yeah. And I was pissed off because "You're crazy. The fish shed is far better to clean the Cod - you're in a boat far better to catch the fish. You shouldn't be cleaning on your boat, because it's not economical. You're on a sliding platform. You'd be best out there, catching more fish. To bring fish in from outside, tie to moorings, and clean fish in the Bay - it's crazy."
CRAWFORD: Roughly, when did you lobby to have fish cleaning prohibited inside Halfmoon Bay?
CAVE: 1990s. I was very strong on it, because my kids swim there. Clean the bloody things out to sea. Or bring them ashore, clean them, take out the tubs, take them way out in the tide, and dump them random place, random time - and it will never have an effect on educating the Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Back in the '90s, when you were trying to get this changed, was it principally because of White Pointer sightings in the Bay?
CAVE: No, no. It was just a necessary outcome. It's a trial. All roads lead to Rome.
CRAWFORD: Ok. But what I'm trying to get at ... was your motivation, your concern, primarily about attracting the Sharks?
CAVE: It was concern about Sharks. For sure.
CRAWFORD: The last part for this component of the interview is about White Pointer-Human interactions. When you were fishing out of Stewart Island for that thirty-year time period, do you ever remember Level 4 Shark aggression in the region? Any attacks or near-attacks?
CAVE: No. The guy at Campbell Island had his arm bitten off, that's the only one. Oh, and the one at the Chatham Island. But you only just hear about it in the news.
CRAWFORD: Based on what quite a few people have said, the Campbell Island attack shocked the hell out of everybody. Many people didn't think the White Pointers were down that far south.
CAVE: They'll be at the Auckland Islands. There's thousands of Grey Seals there. Thousands.
CRAWFORD: Back in the day, did you fish the Auckland Islands?
CAVE: I experimented down there. There's Crabs there, the big Crab. We probably spent quite a lot of time down there. Its a great place to go, and we had a good time there as well. It isn't all work. We looked for Crayfish, obviously. The Crabs are there, that everyone knows about. We tried to find a market for those. I took down Martin Cawthorn ... I think DOC and him had a fallout, because he speaks his mind. He's the foremost Whale researcher. When we launched the boat in 1983, we were "Let's try out this boat." We took it out and did a test virtually straight away. Arrived at Stewart Island, fuelled her up, and went down to the Aucklands. We wanted to see how it could perform. So, we went down there and we saw Whales - a lot of Whales. When we came back, we told Department of Conservation, and they said "Oh, yeah. You must have been smoking wacky backy. If there were Whales there, we'd know about them." Bloody arrogant bastards. We went back down there the year after, in June and July. Whales everywhere. The interesting thing about the Auckland Islands, there's actually Rabbits there. They were released. They were a French Blue Rabbit. They released them deliberately as food for the survivers of shipwrecks. We were fascinated by them. Little blue fellows - and the tamest. [chuckles] You can walk right up to them. So, we went down there probably four years in a row. I took Martin Cawthorn down there for his survey of the Seals. Just for the fun of being down there. Like we charged him fuel only, it wouldn't cover the cost. That was at Christmas-time.
4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES
CRAWFORD: What was the first time that you recall hearing about or seeing a White Pointer?
CAVE: Well we actually caught one in a net. We used to set nets in the bay.
CRAWFORD: Which bay?
CAVE: In Halfmoon Bay. We had one in that last bay around here, I've forgotten the actual name of the bay. We had our nets set there. I picked the Shark up in the dinghy, and there was this damn great thing -12-foot long, in there.
CRAWFORD: That was a net set for bait?
CAVE: Yes, basically.
CRAWFORD: Roughly when?
CAVE: Early-70s. '71-'72. Just after I arrived at Stewart Island.
CRAWFORD: You had you nets set up for bait, you came back and found you've got a White Pointer. Was the animal alive or dead?
CAVE: Dead.
CRAWFORD: What did you do with it? Did you harvest?
CAVE: Well, I didn't even know what species it was. So I immediately became quite interested. We towed it ashore and dragged it up the beach. And then we identified it as being a Great White Shark.
CRAWFORD: When you brought that first White Pointer in from your net, was there community attention? Was it drawing a lot of attention because of the size of it?
CAVE: It drew quite a lot of attention, yeah.
CRAWFORD: As a result of bringing the Shark in, did you hear other stories from anybody else?
CAVE: Probably Smoky Joe.
CRAWFORD: Those kinds of stories?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Was there any sense that, even though it was an incidental catch, it was still a harvest? And that you should process - either for liver oil or teeth or flesh?
CAVE: Just teeth.
CRAWFORD: Just teeth coming out of the jaw? Or the jaw and all?
CAVE: We removed the jaws, and boiled them out.
CRAWFORD: Ok. And that was the first instance of you knowing anything about White Pointers?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Over the next thirty-odd years, did you ever see any other White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay? In the wild, alive?
CAVE: Never. I still haven't seen one alive. And we looked. We had a couple of good crew that had amazing eyes, and they hadn't seen any either. I mean, it's not that we're half-blind. A family friend said "Well, you guys are blind." But we are very, very aware of what's in the water. We're not dumb. We're fishermen.
CRAWFORD: Right. There's a distinction between eyes on water, and trained eyes on the water.
CAVE: Ours are very trained.
CRAWFORD: Yes. Did you get other White Pointers in your nets? In your bait setnets?
CAVE: Have we caught other Sharks? Yes, we have.
CRAWFORD: Where, in general, were those incidental catches of White Pointers?
CAVE: Well, it wasn't really incidental.
CRAWFORD: Ok. But, I'm trying to divide into two categories. Because later there were targeted nets at some point ...
CAVE: Yep, yep, yep.
CRAWFORD: But we're still in the early days with your incidental catches.
CAVE: I think from memory I've pnly caught two other Whites, maybe three in setnets.
CRAWFORD: You mean caught incidentally?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And where would those have been, just generally?
CAVE: They were at Bench Island, and we caught them in Jacky Lee's passage through here, caught one there. And one up the sands, and one in the Bay - that's incidental.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Now, when were the Shark nets first constructed?
CAVE: Straight after I caught that very first one.
CRAWFORD: Early-70s?
CAVE: Very early-70s.
CRAWFORD: At which time, if I understand, you had two sets of gear. You were still running setnets for Crayfish bait, and then you also had Shark nets that would go out on occasion?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Alright. Let's talk about the Sharks nets, specifically. This is obviously a big part of the story. I hear about them from many different people. I think it's important to get it straight from you. What was the motivation for constructing the Shark nets in the first place?
CAVE: I bought a book, because I was quite fascinated by this big Shark. I've still got it somewhere, it's about the South Africans. They were building their nets - they were using them to protect the beaches. We bought a whole bundle of twine from [Guroxel??], one of the big fishing companies, and we built a 24-inch mesh, 60 yard net. And that net was immediately successful.
CRAWFORD: The idea came from the South Africans who were using barrier nets or targeted nets for Shark capture?
CAVE: Targeted nets, I think.
CRAWFORD: Ok. You constructed your own Shark nets. Roughly, how many different nets and what size?
CAVE: Well, I constructed the first one by myself. I showed my Wife at the time, I showed her how to build, and she built the next two. Because it's quite a big job to build a net.
CRAWFORD: Three straps - we call them straps in Canada. And they were 24-inch mesh. How long?
CAVE: About 80 metres. They were right at the surface.
CRAWFORD: Roughly how deep?
CAVE: 20 feet.
CRAWFORD: Ok. The nets were deployed specifically to entangle White Pointers?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: When would you know to deploy them?
CAVE: We'd just actually leave them there.
CRAWFORD: So, you had them out stationary, long-term? I've heard from other people the idea that when a Shark was seen in the Bay, then the nets would go out.
CAVE: No, no. They were full-time.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Where would you leave these three Shark nets?
CAVE: Mainly in Horseshoe Bay.
CRAWFORD: Within Horseshoe Bay, were there specific regions?
CAVE: No, just out towards the [Magdeline??]
CRAWFORD: Oh, really? Not towards Bathing Beach? Not in Halfmoon Bay?
CAVE: No. We caught one in the main Bay, but the problem was the boats steaming back and forth. Whereas actually Horseshoe was easier. Otherwise people would pick your floats up. Mainly, actually, at Horseshoe.
CRAWFORD: Horseshoe Bay. Out at the mouth?
CAVE: Yeah, towards the mouth. Not right at it, but towards.
CRAWFORD: On either side. Roughly what depth of water?
CAVE: Well it varied. That's not very deep. Going back a bit ... probably 30 foot of water.
CRAWFORD: So, there's a main channel that the vessels were using to get in and out. And you were off to the sides of that?
CAVE: No, right in the middle.
CRAWFORD: Yeah?
CAVE: They'd steam over. There was enough room.
CRAWFORD: Bottom set, but there was enough clearance over the top?
CAVE: Yeah, yeah. I made sure of that. [chuckles] If they got that wrapped round their fan, they'd be in big trouble.
CRAWFORD: Well, I'm very glad to know about all of this. Because it is not what I had heard before. I think I've been told that there were indeed three Shark nets. But the impression other people had was that they were set in closer proximity to one or more of the bathing beaches in Halfmoon Bay.
CAVE: We did set them there ...
CRAWFORD: On occasion?
CAVE: We were asked to.
CRAWFORD: Alright. We'll get to that in a second. But the kind of standard practice was, these were barrier-entangle nets. Out there at the mouth of Horseshoe Bay, with the intention of catching the White Pointers coming in?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: And this was not a harvest intention. It was a protection intention?
CAVE: Yeah. Well, I was wind surfing. I didn't do it a lot, but I did it enough that I didn't want a Shark. Because I use to wind surf out there. I'm not a good wind surfer, I'm not trying to say that. But I did a little bit of it.
CRAWFORD: Were there others that were out there like that as well?
CAVE: Others like Merv Moodie who works for me, he had a catamaran and he use to go out there sailing. There was a bit of water-skiing activity. And I had young kids at the time, or not long after that. They were always down in the water at the beach. Always.
CRAWFORD: Ok. At what point in the season would the Shark nets go out?
CAVE: Oh, I'd leave them out as long as I could. If a big easterly was forecast, I'd bring them up.
CRAWFORD: But what would be the beginning of the season, when the Shark nets would go out?
CAVE: They were just there all the time.
CRAWFORD: Winter? Summer?
CAVE: Yeah, pretty well. I'd take a mark on each buoy, so I knew that buoy was aligned with that buoy. I'd look every morning through the binoculars. When the buoys came together, I knew there was something in there.
CRAWFORD: Ok. You started with the Shark nets in the early-70s. You ran them until approximately when?
CAVE: Oh, right through. I kept them out there till ... I honestly can't remember. At least the '90s.
CRAWFORD: What was the reason for not fishing the Shark nets anymore?
CAVE: I don't really know, to be frank. They were out there a long time. And then we put them away. And then the Whales went ashore down at the Neck. I rang up my Son from Hong Kong when I heard, and I said "Put those nets out." So he put them out at the Neck, where the Whales had gone up. The smell from the carcasses - they`d attracted them. And he caught three straight away. That's on the other side of Paterson's. There`s the Neck there.
CRAWFORD: I have heard about that story as well. In terms of the fishing efficiency for those Shark nets ... over that roughly 25-year period that they were out there, how many White Pointers do you think were caught in those nets?
CAVE: I did personally? Or with the actual nets?
CRAWFORD: I don't understand your question. What do you mean?
CAVE: Zane Smith and my Son, they knew those Whales were ashore and they took the nets round there and they caught one. And same with the Neck. I was in Hong Kong ...
CRAWFORD: No, no. Those are different instances will come up. How many White Pointers had you personally caught in those Shark nets over the years?
CAVE: Probably seven.
CRAWFORD: The nets were out there - they were fishing pretty much full-time, three sets of them, mostly at the mouth of Horseshoe Bay. And they caught seven White Pointers over 25 years? That's Infrequent.
CAVE: Yeah, infrequent. Might have been eight. I know the nets have been responsible for catching around fifteen Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Half by you, and half by others?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Was there any pattern in time when they caught most of the White Pointers? For those seven White Pointers that you caught, were they mostly in the summer-time?
CAVE: I can't remember. They were set right through. I never kept a diary.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember getting any White Pointers in the winter-time at all?
CAVE: Yeah, we did. Yeah.
CRAWFORD: I guess what I was trying to ask was, you didn't notice if there was a pattern where most of the White Pointers were caught in one season or another?
CAVE: No, no.
CRAWFORD: It was year-round?
CAVE: Yeah, we were catching that few. There wasn't even sufficient to get a pattern indication.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Any recollection in terms of the varying size of these animals?
CAVE: No. The biggest was nearly sixteen feet. I know because I skinned it. I wanted a Shark skin, so I skinned it.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Sixteen feet was the largest. What size would the others have come in at?
CAVE: The one Merv and that caught was nine, but mainly bigger. Mainly average twelve to fourteen.
CRAWFORD: Any sense of males or females?
CAVE: No. I never really worried, to be quite frank.
CRAWFORD: Did you ever cut the animals open to find out what they were eating?
CAVE: Yes.
CRAWFORD: In general, what did you find?
CAVE: Seal. And an awful smell.
CRAWFORD: Some people have reported Seal pups, in particular. Do you remember anything about that?
CAVE: No.
CRAWFORD: Any fish?
CAVE: Not that I can really recall.
CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of other people using those Shark nets ... you've already described how Zane and Stu fished the Neck. And I think you said Stu fished Doughboy as well?
CAVE: Yeah. With Zane.
CRAWFORD: What did you hear about the results of their deployments of the gear?
CAVE: Well, they were only there for a very short time.
CRAWFORD: Right. In response to a very proximate cue?
CAVE: Yeah. There were Whales ashore.
CRAWFORD: What do you recall them telling you about the number or anything about the White Pointers they caught?
CAVE: They caught one here, and they caught three here.
CRAWFORD: The maths, then ... I think you had seven from when you worked the nets, and they had four or five here.
CAVE: And Merv, we were called from the Bay ... the Policeman rang me and said that a plane had seen Sharks in Halfmoon Bay. I was at Wanaka, it was Christmas-time, and he said "You know, we're concerned. Because people are swimming at Bathing Beach." I said "Well, I'm up on holiday." And then he leaned on me. So, I went to go and resurrect the Shark net. Set the net at Bathing Beach, flew back over, drove back to Wanaka. Merv who works for me, Merv Moodie, stayed. And he had two or three Sharks. Two, I believe. The next day. And they were the Sharks that were swimming in the Bay. That would have been late-90s, I believe. Very late-90s.
CRAWFORD: Your recollection ... you weren't there, you were back up at Wanaka, but you heard it was two White Pointers?
CAVE: Yeah, two Sharks. I've got photographs somewhere.
CRAWFORD: Did you hear anything else about the role of the Pilots? I've heard there were two different steps where the Pilots might have been involved. First, the original spotting to say that there are big Sharks in the Bay.
CAVE: Yeah, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Second, to indicate that there were Sharks in the nets?
CAVE: I don't know about that happening. I wasn't there.
CRAWFORD: Sometimes knowledge gets passed from person to person, and sometimes it gets changed.
CAVE: I don't even know where actual net was when I got there. I arrived from Wanaka "Where the hell's that net?" And then I find out the crew on the boat had chopped some of the floats off, so we had to resling it. There was a tv camera there from TVNZ news. And the next minute my name is Crap all round New Zealand, because we caught these two Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Why was your name Crap?
CAVE: Well, because they decided they were now animals that should be allowed to swim near the beach. And they were within how many yards of the beach.
CRAWFORD: I'm still not getting it. Did you get the sense that the tv crew was spinning you as being the bad guy for settting the nets?
CAVE: No, it wasn't the tv crew. But when it was filmed it was broadcast round New Zealand.
CRAWFORD: And you got flak from that?
CAVE: Ah, flak and all the papers, and letters to the editor - crap like that.
CRAWFORD: On what basis? Was this pre-protection or post-protection?
CAVE: That it was wrong to kill the Sharks.
CRAWFORD: Did that cause any ongoing debate? Or did it erupt and just die off?
CAVE: It died, died. But it was all over New Zealand. Hey, I was on holiday. "I don't want to come down and catch the bloody things."
6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS
CRAWFORD: When do you recall hearing that Shark cage diving had started in the first place?
CAVE: I can't remember the time. I did actually hear, but I can't remember when it was. It was a number of years ago.
CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen one of these operations, when they are set up and running?
CAVE: No.
CRAWFORD: What is your understanding of what the operations are? Once we've got that settled, then we can discuss potential effects of those activities.
CAVE: I think initially they saw NIWA-DOC Shark study, they joined the dots and said "Oh well, Shark cage diving is popular. We can make some money out of this." They're fishermen. So, they put cages on. And they actually fed them quite a lot - initially.
CRAWFORD: What regions are we talking about here, historically?
CAVE: Probably the back of Edwards Island. Because you get so much wind, you don't get much protection. It's probably one of the best islands to be behind, is Edwards Island or Long Island, that's the old name. We used to set nets there all the time. If it was going to blow 60 knots 70, 80 knots easterly, we use to go there. The best place to set nets is right in behind there because you're in the lee. And because it's such a long island, the tides aren't such a pain in the butt, as it is around Bunkers or Bench. It's one of the best islands to get a consistent supply of bait, in gale-force winds. Be able to pick it up at 5 o'clock in the morning, clean the net during the day, reset it on the way home, pick it up again the next morning at 5 o'clock. Even in a lot of wind you can pick up your bait net.
CRAWFORD: Once again, that reinforces what you said previously in the interview. You spent a considerable amount of time on the water around Edwards Island. And if there were White Pointers around back in that point in time, you had nets in the water ...
CAVE: Yeah, yeah.
CRAWFORD: So, either from surface observations, or from observations of what was coming through your netting there. You'd expect to have seen some indication of White Pointers, if they were hanging around there?
CAVE: You wouldn't necessarily catch them in your nets, of course. They'd go right through the nets.
CRAWFORD: Right, but you would have evidence. Holes in the nets?
CAVE: Twenty-foot long, yeah.
CRAWFORD: And you did have a handful of instances where they did get wrapped up in those bait nets. But let's get back to the description of the cage diving operations. We've got a place, Edwards Island. I think it would be fair to say that there was an exploratory phase for the first couple of years, but then both operations focussed on Edward Island specifically because a) the protection that it afforded ...
CAVE: Yeah, that's the main one.
CRAWFORD: And also b) for them, the consistency of being able to attract White Pointers to their cages.
CAVE: You can attract them from a long way. You can attract them 15 miles away. So primarily, 90% of the reason they're there is the protection from the sou'west and the west. No problem. They know the tides, because they're fishermen. You can let go smells, and that smell you actually know where it's going to go, because the flood draws from a certain direction. So, the first of the flood draws directly from Bluff, and the flood goes along like that. If you had smell at Edwards, it's going to go to Bunkers.
CRAWFORD: That's a different way of thinking about the effects, right off the bat. Different than just about anybody I've talked with, to this point. The idea that the attraction is not simply bringing White Pointers to the boat in that specific place, but bringing the Sharks in from a broader region downstream - which happens to include the Bunkers and maybe Bench at least some of the time?
CAVE: Yeah. Just using the flood tide.
CRAWFORD: Right. Over what rough geographic scale are you thinking that would happen? If you started berleying on a flood tide, how far away do you think White Pointers might come in for that?
CAVE: Oh, ten miles. The tide's quite strong. The first of the flood probably flows at a knot, a knot and a half. It would be at Bunkers within three hours. And they would just come back up, for the smell.
CRAWFORD: But their operations are just day-trips. They're only on station from mid-morning to mid-afternoon.
CAVE: Don't forget you've taught that animal, he's learned anyway. I'm not saying they'll always come from Bunkers. If it was ebb tide, the reverse would occur, and the tide is basically going down that way, so no smell would go up to Bunkers.
CRAWFORD: Right. I get that. But you're the first person that put it in terms of those specific tidal vectors - the directionality and the speed.
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. From here on, we're going to focus on the DOC permit conditions. I don't know that you've ever seen the permit?
CAVE: No, no. But they rung me about it, but I don't recall.
CRAWFORD: The DOC permit conditions only came in last year. Prior to that, it was an un-permitted activity. Nothing was required. According to the permit it's berley only, a fairly fine mince. Fish on a line as a throw bait is allowed to attract the Sharks closer to the cage. But the operator is supposed to do everything possible to make sure that the animals don't get the bait fish. So, in general the sequence is: cage tour dive operators come to station, they anchor, they berley, the cage goes in the water, people suit up, they go in the cage, they see the White Pointers, they do that for part of the day, they lift the cage and the anchor, they go home. Do you think the cage tour dive operations have an important and lasting effect of the behaviour of the White Pointers?
CAVE: Absolutely.
CRAWFORD: In what way?
CAVE: Even if they only catch, 'by mistake' - and I put that in inverted commas, even if the Sharks only snaggle one full fish bait, it's going to give them the random reward. It gets fed maybe once whenever. They accidentally lose a bait which they do, and the Sharks strike very fast. This is just going back on something else ... I've read a lot about Shark attacks. Mostly the people who've been attacked had no idea there was a Shark around, no idea at all. They're outside their visual range. The people who were killed at St Kilda and Dunedin, and one guy got taken a long time ago off the mouth of the Otago Harbour. I had a friend who was with the guy when he was taken. He was on the Island, he's died since. But anyway, going back to the random reward. Random reward is about the worst situation for prolonging the response attitude of any animal - whether it's a Dog, or a Shark, or whatever. If he gets randomly rewarded, not on a specific once a day. But once in six days, then once the next day. It will keep coming back for a long, long time. I don't know what period you could estimate, but it would be a lot longer. It would keep coming back, even a year afterwards.
CRAWFORD: Alright. It's very clear, based on what you just said, that you feel that there is conditioning or associated learning happening with these White Pointers, in response to the cage diving operations. Not only do these Sharks have the capability to associate, but that they use it. And under these circumstances, you would say that there's a high probability of them using that capability?
CAVE: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's start simple, and then add complexity one step at a time. It's possible that the White Pointers could associate the smell of food with that specific location. Even if there wasn't a cage dive boat around, just some type of remote discharge of berley. I know it sounds weird.
CAVE: Well, Whales did exactly that. And they came from twelve miles away.
CRAWFORD: What I'm trying to focus on is, do you think that as a result of the cage tour dive operations putting berley in the water that the Sharks would associate the place, Edwards Island specifically? That they would visit or stay at Edwards Island at a higher frequency or duration, after exposure to the cave dive operation's berley there? That they would associate the place?
CAVE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Now the next thing we're going to add is a boat. Any old boat, not specifically a cage dive boat. The presence of a boat in association with the berley. Do you think that the White Pointers would associate in such a way that in some other place in time, if they saw any old boat, that they would be more likely to approach the boat or investigate it?
CAVE: They would investigate the boat.
CRAWFORD: They might have done that just out of natural curiosity. Do you believe that they would be more likely to as a result of the association with the cave dive operations?
CAVE: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Why do you think that, specifically?
CAVE: Going on the trawler boat on the west coast, when they pull the winches - it's a dinner gong for the Seals. The Seals swim into the Hoki net. They've learned that behaviour. They've learned the noise of the winch, the vibration, and they come hanging around the net. And as that net comes in, they swim into the net, and steal the fish out of the net.
CRAWFORD: Some people would argue that's fine, maybe Seals can do that. But White Pointers are not mammals, they're not like Seals in that way.
CAVE: I think they're equally as clever. They find these Sharks all all over the world. They've got a magnetic system that they know right where they are, the whole time. And I think that they would associate the engine noise, the vibration, which they could probably hear. They can detect a struggling fish from a long, long way. That's why speardivers always counsel to get the fish killed as soon as possible. A struggling fish is like a dinner gong.
CRAWFORD: Alright. Let's add one extra bit of complexity, one that you already mentioned. Let's say that it is the presence of a specific boat now, one of the cage diving boats. That boat. And it could be some characteristic of the hull, it could be the motor, it could be the noise, it could be some type of electromagnetic field. Do you think that White Pointers would associate the smell of food with that particular boat signature? If they found that boat elsewhere not berleying, that they would remember it and be more likely to investigate it?
CAVE: It's possible. I wouldn't say it does. It would certainly be able to recognize the boat that it's been traditionally fed or berleyed from. It would draw an association.
CRAWFORD: An association such that, if that White Pointer had been exposed to the cave dive operation, and it was at some other location at some other time, and sensed a signature that was similar to the Shark cage dive boat. Even without any berley at that other location, that it would be more likely to investigate that boat?
CAVE: I don't know. I haven't got experience with that.
CRAWFORD: Fine. Some people talk about White Pointers following boats in general, and the cage tour dive boats in particular. Have you heard of any instance where White Pointers were following boats at any time?
CAVE: Yeah. They discharged some rubbish from a boat in Auckland, they steamed to Aussie, they set some lines, and caught a Shark. When they opened up that Shark, they found the rubbish that they'd dumped back in Auckland was inside it.
CRAWFORD: Really?
CAVE: Yes.
CRAWFORD: Roughly when was that?
CAVE: Oh, thirty-odd years ago.
CRAWFORD: Was that something you heard through the grapevine?
CAVE: No, it's in a book. There's another one you might have heard about. They caught an aggressive Shark, I think it was a Tiger Shark, but I'm not sure of the species. They caught it, put it in a swimming pool, it regurgitated an arm. And on the arm, there was a tattoo of two boxers. So, immediately they thought that this guy was a boxer. They investigated a missing person record. Sure enough, someone had gone missing. The band that he was involved with, the drug gangs, they pulled in the suspects, and it led to a conviction. If you look on the internet, you'll find it.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Thank you for that interesting bit. Now, let's get to the association between the smell of food and the presence of submerged Humans in the cage. Do you think that it is likely that exposure to cage dive operations would increase the probability that a White Pointer would investigate a Human in the water at some other place and time?
CAVE: No. But it would investigate the means by that person getting in the water. So, if they arrived in a dinghy, they'd investigate the dinghy - and by association the diver, who now has a problem because he's by the dinghy. That's the danger.
CRAWFORD: Well, then I'm glad then that I took you through the steps with increasing complexity. Because, if I understand what you're saying, it's not necessarily association with a Human submerged first and foremost ... it's association with the vessel that brought the Human? That is what you see as being the key association?
CAVE: Yes. And that brings us to the idea that the Sharks are probably pissed off, because they've not been fed. And you've got a diver in at the time. That's my thinking. You've dramatically increased the likelihood of a Shark coming to the very area that you don't want the Shark in. That's what you've done.
CRAWFORD: Because of association with boats, primarily?
CAVE: And noise. Because they'll hear an outboard or an engine from probably three miles away. With their lateral lines, they can hear vibrations in the water, from a long way away.
CRAWFORD: Alright. Some people say that the cage dive operations are actually distracting the White Pointers from other things they're supposed to be doing. In that regard, it's an indirect effect by displacement of their activity. The idea that these White Pointers are supposed to be out there feeding on Seals, or doing whatever - and that they're being distracted by the cage dive operations. Do you think that is a likely effect, that they are somehow suffering from?
CAVE: They won't actually be suffering. But it has altered their behaviour. Like the Department of Conservation don't want you to feed Kakas round Halfmoon Bay. But the Kakas have actually learned now that if they hang around certain places, they get sugar or water. And the Department of Conservation are quite upset about that. Because it's changed the behaviour of the bird. Have you seen them? There are dozens of the bloody things.
CRAWFORD: Yes, I have. And I think I know where you are going on this. But please make explicit the connection between the Kakas and the White Pointers?
CAVE: It's learned behaviour. They get rewarded, so they're going to go to the boat. There's a problem ... I don't know if you were going to ask me any more about permit conditions, but it's a problem that some boats apparently go alongside the Shark boats and clean their Cod. "We'll see you in the pub later, and give you a few beers." It's so wrong. And the Shark boat isn't deliberately breaking the rules, but another boat has come alongside, cleaned their Cod, and effectively you get that association with the boats and actual food. Not just the smell.
CRAWFORD: That entire part of the discussion we had previously was focussed primarily on the smell of food, the berley, as permitted explicitly by DOC. And then the possibility of the White Pointers associating the small of food with some other cues. What do you think happens in situations like you just described, when there is real food going in the water - as opposed to just the smell of food? Do you think that that affects the association differently?
CAVE: It makes the association become many times stronger. They are getting rewarded, and it's substantial. It's not just a sniff. They are getting a substantial reward for hanging around the boat. And they'll keep coming back.
CRAWFORD: Ok.Let's open the discussion up - in any way that you feel relevant - about the effects of management decisions that have taken place, or perhaps that should take place in the future, with regards to Shark cage dive operations at Edwards Island. I know from what you've said, outside this conversation, that you think there have been mistakes made.
CAVE: Well it's huge. An avalanche is only started by a particle of snow. Once it rolls on, it gets more momentum. We're well on. The momentum's reached a critical mass now. If the Department do stop them ... and they're very wary of that, because they've told me, the reason that they're not coming down on them is the fear of litigation. That is the Department's prime driver. They haven't been afraid to tell people that. It's a litigation risk. It well could be that the two cage drivers do that. DOC had opportunity to get rid of them. I believe both of them have broken conditions of the permits, and yet DOC have not taken advantage of that breach to get rid of them. There is theory that they don't even need a permit. They'll just carry on if they don't get a permit - they'll just keep cage diving. So that's another little element. The Department of Conservation stops them, and they say "That's fine. We're going to carry on cage diving. What are you going to do now?" Is the legislation in place that they can come down on the cage divers "No you can't do this." Then they've got a very valid reason, the rationale behind stopping them.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Almost the last question. In general, there's a discussion among some people about the abundance of White Pointers in this region. Some people are struggling with the perceived increase in number of White Pointer observations - especially around the Titi Islands. How much of that is due to increased Human traffic in the region? How much of it is due to an actual increase in abundance of the White Pointers, because of increased Seals or for whatever reason? How much of it is due to the behavioural effects of cage dive operations?
CAVE: My answer to that, is it would be mainly the cage dive operations have made the Sharks far more inquisitive to any boat that's in the sea. The abundance factor, I don't know. Because I've been fishing out there thirty-odd years, and haven't seen one.
CRAWFORD: That'ss exactly why I came to speak with you. Because there are people out there that have different time frames for their observations. You are one of a handful of people who were fishing in the region long before the cage dive operations.
CAVE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: To wrap up on the management side of things. If there's one question that DOC needs to focus on ... they don't have limitless resources, and not all of these questions are equal, some are more important than others. But if there was one question that we need to have answered about the White Pointers in this region, or the effects of cage diving, what do you think would be pretty high on that list?
CAVE: They should have an observer every day. And the observer should be from a source whereby they can't be bribed, no emotional involvement, don't sleep with the crew, whatever. It should be someone who is entirely incorruptible. They're on every day. That would possibly make the Shark cage operations not feasible - because they would no longer be feeding them. They are feeding them now, one way or another.
CRAWFORD: So, under strict enforcement, you feel that the business model would no longer be viable? That they just wouldn't attract enough White Pointers?
CAVE: Well, I don't know - but almost certainly.
Copyright © 2020 Joseph Cave and Steve Crawford