Jess Terrill

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Jess, I think you said you were you born in the Taranaki region? 

TERRILL: Yeah, so in New Plymouth, 1982. Born and raised. My family have been there right from early settler days. I think I’m the first to leave the nest. 

CRAWFORD: That’s what - seven or eight generations? 

TERRILL: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Did you grow up inland, or did you grow up in a more coastal environment? 

TERRILL: New Plymouth is a coastal community. We used to surf Fitzroy Beach, and Back Beach which is around the Sugar Loaf Islands. 

CRAWFORD: There was probably a period of time when you were down at the beach with parental supervision. How early do you figure you were out playing on and around the water? 

TERRILL: Right from the get-go. We used to go down to the beach as kids, every year for Christmas camping. Around North Taranaki, at a place called Tongaporutu; that’s half-way between New Plymouth and Kawhia Harbour. It's round about here, the Mokau River.

CRAWFORD: Was that at a crib, or a holiday home?

TERRILL: No, we just used to go tenting as a family with kids. All of our relatives, we used to swim around the beach. 

CRAWFORD: Swimming from an early age. Did you have any dinghies that you played in, or kayaks or anything? 

TERRILL: No, no. Just swimming and boogie boarding. 

CRAWFORD: So, mostly surf-related, surf-zone?

TERRILL: In-shore, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you do any fishing of any kind, as a kid? 

TERRILL: Maybe a wee bit of surfcasting as kids. The uncles always had surfcast rods, but never anything offshore. 

CRAWFORD: What about inshore harvesting? Any snorkelling for fun or to collect for harvesting?

TERRILL: Not so much. Maybe in my later years, come of the age about 13 or 14 and upwards when I really found surfing. It sort of came hand-in-hand with that, with the people I was hanging out with, we used to snorkel a fair bit. 

CRAWFORD: Did you have swimming lessons in school, or did you take swimming lessons otherwise? 

TERRILL: We took it in school and otherwise, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when do you figure you would have been in swimming classes? 

TERRILL: Probably about the age of 8, onwards. 

CRAWFORD: Would that have been beach lessons, or at a pool?

TERRILL: In a pool, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: At what point in time did you get a little bit of independence from the family, when you could go off with your mates and just kind of explore - do things on your own? 

TERRILL: I moved out of home at the age of 14, just turning 15. I went flatting. My parents were separated, so It was a rough time. And then I found surfing, so I sort of moved out of home quite young, and went to school, and kept a job as well as going to school, and was funding my competitive surfing career as well. 

CRAWFORD: That sounds like a whole bunch of things happened at once. You going off on your own, and working, plus discovering surfing ... or had you already discovered surfing by that point? 

TERRILL: I had already discovered it, yeah.

CRAWFORD: What age was that then, when you had started surfing? 

TERRILL: Thirteen.

CRAWFORD: Were just doing it for fun to start? Or did you lock right onto lessons and training and competitive aspects of boarding from the start? 

TERRILL: Well, the story goes ... the neighbours threw a board over the fence, one that didn’t sell in a garage sale. My parents were going through separation, so I decided to jump on my bike, and bike for an hour to get to the beach. And that’s where that began. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: You took the board that came over the fence, on your bike, with you? 

TERRILL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn’t sell this old board, and they just chucked it over the fence, and said "Here, have this." And I jumped on my push bike, and that was the start of that.

CRAWFORD: And that activity became a focal point for you from there on.

TERRILL: Not so much the surfing. It was just being in the ocean, and having a new toy to play with really. A new challenge.

CRAWFORD: At that point, roughly, what region were you spending time on the beach with this board? 

TERRILL: Taranaki. So, west coast of the North Island. This whole peninsula, all the way around from Mokau River, all the way around to Patea. So, the whole peninsula of Taranaki. 

CRAWFORD: Tell me, roughly, what the seasonality was back then. Was it a summertime thing for the most part, or ...

TERRILL: It was both.

CRAWFORD: Year-round surfing? 

TERRILL: Yep, all year round. In the days when you’d wear a springsuit and a wetsuit that was too big for you, and you’d wear two wetsuits at once in the middle of winter. Mad! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Ok. Surfing all the way through. Roughly how much time per week would you have been spending on or around the water? 

TERRILL: Well, considering I missed a lot of school ... probably 30 hours a week in the water.

CRAWFORD: That’s almost a fulltime job. 

TERRILL: I know. Which is why I ended up being quite good, and representing New Zealand. 

CRAWFORD: That was 13-14 when you made the transition. And then for how many years did you spend with that kind of time on the water in the Taranaki region? Did that go for several years, or did you at a particular point in time move elsewhere? 

TERRILL: No, I just lived there the whole time, and surfed, and went to the odd class at school. I surfed as much as I could.

CRAWFORD: When did competitive surfing start, in a big way? 

TERRILL: 15. In ’97.

CRAWFORD: Did that start out by being local competitions at first, and then maybe North Island competitions, and then Nationals? 

TERRILL: Yeah. And then international events, World Juniors. 

CRAWFORD: So, competition started around the age of 15. How long did you surf competitively for? 

TERRILL: I was on the Pro Tour for five years, from the age of 17. So, from about 1998 to 2003. 

CRAWFORD: I don’t know much about competitive surfing ... what is a Pro Tour? 

TERRILL: It's a circuit race, a bunch of events, probably about 12 events a year. And they’re all rated, so you're chasing points. 

CRAWFORD: Is it the type of thing where you do many events at different competitions in New Zealand first, and then you get boosted to international competitions? 

TERRILL: Well, that was just the New Zealand tour. Although whilst on the New Zealand tour, I got selected to represent, and competed for New Zealand at six different events during that five-year time. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of your domestic competitive surfing, what kind of places around New Zealand were you spending most of your time? You came from the Taranaki region, that was your origin, but from there, I want to get a sense of what other coastal regions you surfed. 

TERRILL: a lot of time in Raglan, which is up the coast, it’s about a three hour drive up the coast, in the Waikato region. A fair amount of time out of Auckland, surfing the Auckland beaches like Piha, Muriwai. A lot of time up the far north, around Ninety Mile Beach, Shipwreck Bay. On the east coast of this whole stretch of the North Island. The Coromandel, Tauranga, all the way around the East Cape, all the way around into Mahia Peninsula. Not so much in the Hawke's Bay, but a fair amount of time around the Wairarapa, the southern area. Not so much the west of Wairarapa but east, and south of Wellington. I lived there for a short time. 

CRAWFORD: Short time ... six months, a year? 

TERRILL: No, no. It was just a couple of months, while I was doing some studies. But yeah, I surfed around there. And also around the eastern side of the South Island as well as the South. 

CRAWFORD: Was there surfing in Cook Strait region? In between North and South Island? 

TERRILL: I do believe there is a wave in Golden Bay. And Cape Farewell Spit, there’s a wave around there somewhere - it's quite remote, and hard to access. But there’s so much to surf down here in this whole South Taranaki Bight. There’s a lot of surfing around here, but not so much around the sounds at all. It doesn’t get any swell. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. During that five-year period, what were the major areas where you would have been competing around the South Island? 

TERRILL: Christchurch, Banks Peninsula, Dunedin. And Colac Bay, which is down in the Foveaux Strait. 

CRAWFORD: Not so much on the western side of the South Island?

TERRILL: No. I’ve never actually surfed anywhere along the west coast of the South Island. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Five years of highly competitive surfing. That puts you up to 22ish?

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Then what happened? What were you doing after that?

TERRILL: I left the tour after achieving a few of my goals, and I got a real job. 

CRAWFORD: You mentioned before that you achieved New Zealand status. Is that in an age category or ...

TERRILL: it was Open Women. As well as numerous Junior Women titles. Then I finally got the National Open Women's title. 

CRAWFORD: That was one of your targets, and you got that. 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: After the five years of intensively doing all those competitions, then what did you do? 

TERRILL: During my competitive years, I was also working in the seismic survey industry - looking for oil and gas. So, I was also working on boats, exploring for oil and gas. 

CRAWFORD: Where was that work focussed? 

TERRILL: Mainly in Taranaki, west coast of the North Island. But then I also travelled to Western Australia, and was working over there on boats in exploration as well.

CRAWFORD: Did you go to school or training for that type of work? 

TERRILL: No, I just started at the bottom and worked my way up over the course of seven years. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of the technicality of the exploration work you were doing, were you interacting with scientists, researchers - that type of thing? 

TERRILL: Yes.

CRAWFORD: So, you were responsible for technical aspects of data collection, but you were working with professional people in that regard? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: How long did you do that work for? 

TERRILL: For seven years. I started on a ground crew, exploring for oil and gas on land. And then, just through the progression of our team, we were working in the TZ - transitional zone. On boats, inshore, within the shallow water area. 

CRAWFORD: What regions of coastal New Zealand would that have been? 

TERRILL: Just around Taranaki. And in the deep water of Patea. 

CRAWFORD: That would have been between 10 and 30 km offshore? That kind of thing? 

TERRILL: No, inshore. In the surf zones. Really, really, shallow waters. They recruited surfers mostly because we could read the waves, and get the job done without too many accidents. 

CRAWFORD: That’s cool. So, that work would have taken you from 22ish to 29?

TERRILL: Nope. From the age of about 17 as well. 

CRAWFORD: Oh. You were doing that kind of work while you were a competitive surfer?

TERRILL: Yeah. And when I left the tour, I went fulltime. 

CRAWFORD: Fulltime from 22ish till ...

TERRILL: To about 25, when I had a child. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, family comes in around 25. Did that significantly reduce the time that you were spending on and around the water? 

TERRILL: Yep. Definitely. 

CRAWFORD: At what point do you start spending time back around the water? 

TERRILL: About ten days after each child was born. [laughs] There was a wee pregnancy gap, but yeah, that’s about it. 

CRAWFORD: So, you were right back to the water as soon as you could?

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Were you back to the water for your own well-being, or were you back because you were competing or working?

TERRILL: No, just my own purposes. Just with my own fitness and sanity, really. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Where was that? Back in Taranaki?

TERRILL: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When was the next change, in terms of either activity around coastal waters, or maybe location? 

TERRILL: The children’s father, who met me in the seismic survey, when we were exploring for oil in gas in western Australia - he’s from Bluff. We met in western Australia. He was skippering a boat, and I was a navigator; we were on the same team. We came back to New Zealand, and bought a house in South Taranaki, in a wee town called Opunake. He was still working in the seismic industry in Egypt, exploring for oil and gas there. But it was hard on the family life, so we decided to go fishing. He’s from a fishing background, his parents owned a lot of quota, and they bought him a boat and said "Here you are. Let's go fishing."

CRAWFORD: Fishing out of Taranaki? 

TERRILL: No, we moved to the south.

CRAWFORD: To Bluff? 

TERRILL: I wouldn’t live in Bluff - there’s no waves there. So, we moved to Riverton. 

CRAWFORD: Ok.

TERRILL: That’s what brought us here.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, when was this? 

TERRILL: Taj was 1, so that was nine years ago. 

CRAWFORD: About 2006? 

TERRILL: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: The nature of the move ... it was motivated by a bunch of things, but when you moved to Riverton, it was in part the selection of the location for surfing?

TERRILL: Absolutely, 100%. [laughs] 

CRAWFORD: Did that mean you started spending a lot of time surfing in this region? At that point, roughly how much time were you spending surfing? 

TERRILL: Probably only about 15 hours a week. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly half of what you had been surfing before. But now you’ve got family commitments, and other things going on. 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What places around here, for surfing? 

TERRILL: Colac Bay. Porridge, which is out by Cosy Nook. The Catlins, around the eastern side. 

CRAWFORD: How far up the Catlins did you go? 

TERRILL: I never went as far as Nugget Point. We were always around Curio Bay. 

CRAWFORD: And how far west? 

TERRILL: I had never been as far as Fiordland. I did surf in Te Waewae Bay a few times. 

CRAWFORD: Porridge was your most regular spot? 

TERRILL: Porridge and Colac Bay were probably the main spots, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And about 15 hours a week at that point. When you moved south, did it become more seasonal in terms of surfing? Or was it still year-round? 

TERRILL: It was still year-round. Just wear a thicker wetsuit. 

CRAWFORD: Was it around then that you started up the surf school? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Was that maybe the next major change, in terms of time spent in coastal waters? 

TERRILL: Yep.

CRAWFORD: When did that happen? 

TERRILL: Child #2 came along in 2008. In 2011 I decided to start a surf school, because I needed a job that could work in around the children. 

CRAWFORD: That was about five years ago. Did you start out small, and then build it gradually? Or did you go in full-on? 

TERRILL: No. I started really small, and then just worked my way up. 

CRAWFORD: When you had the business, there were things like administration, and bookings, and all the rest of it. In terms of time on or around the water, was it still 15 hours a week? Or did that time increase? 

TERRILL: I think it's about that still now. Sometimes more, depending on the weather, and the swell forecast. 

CRAWFORD: Right. There are going to be pulses in there. Is there more seasonality to it now, because of family holidays and kids' vacations? Or is it still year-round? 

TERRILL: No, my business is definitely seasonal. It’s a very short window. I’m really only doing a lot of teaching from December through to the end of March. 

CRAWFORD: When you’re out of season for teaching, are you still surfing or ...

TERRILL: I'm still surfing, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And you’re spending about 15 hours per week on the water?

TERRILL: Probably less in winter, to be honest. As I get older, I’m getting fussier. And I’m a bit more selective about when I go, because I have many more priorities these days. I have a real job as well now, so the surfing thing has become a little less. 

CRAWFORD: You had mentioned before that you're currently working for Pāua MAC. When did you start working for them?

TERRILL: Two years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. And for the last five years, the region was still pretty much Porridge, Colac Bay, over to the south Catlins? 

TERRILL: Yeah, I haven’t surfed beyond there. Apart from the odd trip to Dunedin. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of any other activities - boating, fishing - did you spend any significant amount of time over the last twenty years doing anything other than surfing? 

TERRILL: Well, I recently learned to dive. 

CRAWFORD: Freediving? 

TERRILL: Yeah. In the last year or two. 

CRAWFORD: With Robbie?

TERRILL: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Diving specifically for Pāua? 

TERRILL: Well, if I can get them. [laughs]. But yeah, I try. 

CRAWFORD: But you’re in the context of people who are freediving, commercially for Pāua. And you’re out there with them while they're working?

TERRILL: Sometimes.

CRAWFORD: How many trips might you go on? 

TERRILL: Three, four or five a year. 

CRAWFORD: And where would those Pāua trips be to? 

TERRILL: Stewart Island, and anywhere in the Pāua area 5-D. The areas I would be helping out would be in this area here ...

CRAWFORD: So, Riverton over to Chaslands?

TERRILL: We don’t actually go over that way. Basically anything that’s quite local to Riverton. Yeah, if he needs a hand, I help him. Drive the dinghy for him. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: To what extent has your general knowledge of New Zealand costal ecosystems been influenced by Māori culture and knowledge? 

TERRILL: Medium. I guess the Māori traditions that we’ve always learned or been exposed to as young people. The folklore. Tales of taniwhas ...

CRAWFORD: Taniwha - what does that mean? 

TERRILL: Taniwha is a monster. A Māori word.

CRAWFORD: How do you know that? How did it come into your world?

TERRILL: At school, we used to always sing songs about taniwha under the bridge.

CRAWFORD: Was this a Pakeha school? Or a Māori school?

TERRILL: Just a Pakeha school. Both. We were never separated. In the '80s, that whole changing the name of Māori students had gone. Māoridom has become a large part of day to day reality.

CRAWFORD: So, this was part of that Māori resurgence?

TERRILL: Yeah, yeah. We used to read Māori books, and we learned how to say Māori words, and count in Māori and respect that, you know?

CRAWFORD: Was there any sense of taniwha presence up at Taranaki when you were young? Was there a place that was associated with taniwha?

TERRILL: Actually, maybe the lake at Pukekura Park with taniwha. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Same question, but this time for the effect of Science on your knowledge about New Zealand coastal ecology? 

TERRILL: Probably high. 

CRAWFORD: Why would you say high? 

CRAWFORD: And you would have been exposed to that when you were a kid on the North Island. Why would you say high effect from Science? 

TERRILL: I guess that it's just always been there.

CRAWFORD: Does Science come up in your experience working with Pāua MAC as well? 

TERRILL: I guess so. But oil and gas research. I was always interested in seeing facts.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: When was the first time for you hearing about, or seeing, a White Pointer?

TERRILL: Well, I’ve never seen one. I knew of a fatal attack at Oakura Beach at New Plymouth. When I was growing up as a kid, we always knew about that one attack. 

CRAWFORD: How many years prior to you hearing that story had the attack taken place? 

TERRILL: I think it happened in the '70s. I was born in ’82, so it was historic. 

CRAWFORD: Was it the case that all the kids in the community knew that story? 

TERRILL: Yep, for sure. 

CRAWFORD: What do you know of that attack, based on what you heard from the people around?

TERRILL: Just that a lady was out swimming from the Oakura River mouth, which is about ten minutes south of New Plymouth. There’s a wee surf spot there called Jeffery’s, and that's where she was swimming. There’s a few wee nuggetty rocks that stick out on that particular sandy beach, right by the river mouth. She was swimming there. And she was killed by a White Pointer. 

CRAWFORD: How do we know that it was a White Pointer that killed her? 

TERRILL: It was never confirmed. Maybe there were sightings?

CRAWFORD: Was her body recovered? 

TERRILL: I don’t know.

CRAWFORD: Do you know if anybody witnessed the attack? 

TERRILL: Not sure.

CRAWFORD: From your perspective, did that influence the way you behaved when you were surfing? For instance, did you avoid that area? 

TERRILL: Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever surfed that spot ever.

CRAWFORD: Would it be fair to say that was because of the attack? 

TERRILL: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I used to live right in front of it, for a couple of years when I was flatting. But I never surfed that one spot. 

CRAWFORD: Would it be fair to say that other people in the community ... that it was a place that was pretty much avoided after the attack? 

TERRILL: Maybe for a time. But I know that people do surf it now.

CRAWFORD: Was there anything else about what you had heard about the attack, that in any way affected how you interacted with the water? How you surfed. Any decisions that you made? 

TERRILL: Well, no. Because I think I knew about it before I even started. It was always just something that happened historically that everybody knew about. But you just carry on, and you go swimming.

CRAWFORD: In all of the time that you spent surfing, and spending time in Taranaki region, did you ever hear about other people in that saw White Pointers around there? 

TERRILL: Just fishermen. Must have been in my late teens when it hit the papers about a six-metre Great White. It was named actually, and I can’t remember the name of it. But it was one that would come through, and they knew that it had come through the season before. 

CRAWFORD: Did it have distinctive markings or something? 

TERRILL: I don’t know. I just remember it being like six metres, and that the fishermen had thought they’d seen it the season before. 

CRAWFORD: That is interesting for a couple of reasons. First, in terms of the size of the animal. Six metres is on the bigger side. Also, if it was the fishermen who felt that it was the same shark that had come through before, you’d think that size might be one feature that they would have recognized from the year before. But it's quite possible that there were other markings. This is not the first case where sharks, large White Pointers in particular, get names. So, that was a big shark ...

TERRILL: I think they believed it was female. 

CRAWFORD: I was just about to ask. Was there any common knowledge that there’s some kind of size pattern when it comes to male versus female White Pointers?

TERRILL: I don’t know the details about any of that. But I do know it was in the paper. 

CRAWFORD: What’s the name of the newspaper up there?

TERRILL: The Taranaki Daily News, TNL. 

CRAWFORD: I would probably be able to find it. I’d be very interested in the name and aspects of that story. 

TERRILL: I believe it was actually coming south. It was coming from the north and going south, both times. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a major part of that story that you just recounted. The idea that these animals are moving through. It might be recognized ... that animal could have even hung out there for a while. I wonder where they got the idea that it was moving? In this case, from north to south?

TERRILL: Because it was sighted off Port Taranaki, and then sighted again in the south. South of the Cape. 

CRAWFORD: Right.

TERRILL: And in the same time duration. And it was a big one. And maybe they were sharing stories. I don’t know, you’d have to read the articles. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, I will. Do you recollect that there was any kind of association, that female White Pointers in general, would be in that region of North Island for any particular reason? 

TERRILL: I don’t think so, no. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember hearing anything else about White Pointers being observed, one way or another, in the Taranaki region? 

TERRILL: No. But I do know that there has been speculation of certain surf locations being sharky.

CRAWFORD: Yes. We'll get back to that for sure.

CRAWFORD: During that five-year period when you were competitive surfing around North Island ... you were with a lot of other people who were also spending a lot of time around the water. In that period of time, do you remember hearing stories about North Island regions that were known to be sharky?

TERRILL: The only real spots I knew of, that were rumoured to be sharky, was the Kaipara Harbour, which is Auckland way. The entrance into the Auckland Harbour. Yeah, there’s a surf spot up there that was renowned to be sharky. I don’t know of any actual stories.

CRAWFORD: Was it renowned to the point that people didn’t surf it? 

TERRILL: I know a couple of local girls who didn’t surf it, because of that fact. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you recall hearing of any incidences or attacks? 

TERRILL: No. But the girls who were from Muriwai Beach, they wouldn’t surf the Kaipara Harbour entrance. But just a few years ago, a swimmer was killed off Muriwai Beach. I don’t know what kind of shark that was. Maybe it as a White.

CRAWFORD: What is the proximity - Muriwai Beach to the Kaipara Harbour? 

TERRILL: Oh, it's close. Probably a couple of kilometres.

CRAWFORD: When you were doing competitive surfing, were there other places around North Island that were considered hot spots White Pointers? 

TERRILL: Yeah, there’s one more spot that I remember people saying was quite sharky. It's called The Spit at Wairarapa. 

CRAWFORD: So, this was thought to be a sharky region. Was there any indication of any reason why the animals were there? 

TERRILL: No idea.

CRAWFORD: Had there been any incidences with Humans? Or were they just observations? 

TERRILL: Just observations. 

CRAWFORD: No incidences that you know of. 

TERRILL: Not that I know of.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Was there any sense in the surf community that there was any type of residency or migration of White Pointers around these places? Or did those kinds of things not even come up in the discussion? 

TERRILL: No. Apart from what I knew about the rumour about the big six metre shark going south. I don’t remember anything else. Yeah, and in my time, I’ve seen a few Sand Sharks in various spots. But never White Pointers. 

CRAWFORD: Was there any kind of discussion within the surf community about what to look for?  Maybe people recognize particular kinds of sharks because of whatever feature, and they have no or low concern. As opposed to distinguishing features that you should watch out for if you do see them? 

TERRILL: No. I just think we all just turned a blind eye, you know. Don’t really want to know about it. Just kind of ignore that the risk is even there. 

CRAWFORD: And you personally didn’t have any interactions with sharks - for all the countless hours that you boarded? 

TERRILL: No. I had a few encounters with small wee Sand Sharks, whatever type they were. 

CRAWFORD: By 'encounters' - were they kind of swim-bys or bumping, or what? 

TERRILL: Yeah, swim-bys. And then quite a few bumpings down south

CRAWFORD: Did you ever get bumped by a shark up north? 

TERRILL: No.

CRAWFORD: Did anybody else report getting bumped up there? 

TERRILL: No. Not that I remember

 CRAWFORD: What, if anything, did you hear about sharks when you competed at Banks Peninsula and Dunedin? 

TERRILL: Dunedin - very sharky. You know, St. Clair, the shark bell on the beach.

CRAWFORD: When you competed on the Otago Peninsula, what specific locations did you spend most of your time surfing? 

TERRILL: Aramoana, the spit. Murderers, which is just around the corner. It’s a point break, just around the corner from the harbour entrance. Aramoana was always said to be sharky, and that there was a resident White at the entrance.

CRAWFORD: Really? So, people were talking about a resident White Pointer there? 

TERRILL: And they still do. The surfers always talk about that. 

CRAWFORD: It has come up in several interviews. But for a person who spent time competing there, what did you hear about that resident White Pointer? 

TERRILL: I heard recently that it was seen last summer. And I've heard through some of the guys I work for, with the Pāua MAC, who are also surfers, and they bring it up. They speak about it.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember if they had a name for it? 

TERRILL: Something rings a bell. Was it KZ-7? 

CRAWFORD: It was exactly KZ-7. There’s at least one commercial fisherman from Karitane who was absolutely convinced that the surfers there were over-reacting. He was convinced he saw the animal and that it was a Basking Shark, not a White Pointer. Basking Sharks get larger than White Pointers. Have you ever seen a Basking Shark? 

TERRILL: No. 

CRAWFORD: When people see a shark, if they haven’t seen a shark before and they don’t know what to look for, they won’t necessarily be able to discriminate one from another. 

TERRILL: This came from the mouth of a guy called Rob Emmett, who works for Ross Newton. Rob skippers a lot of boats, and is out at sea a lot. He was skippering the dredge, the barge?

CRAWFORD: In Otago Harbour? 

TERRILL: The tugboat or something for the dredging that was going on there. That was this year. And he’s done a lot of time on boats that guy, nd I think he knows what he's talking about. And also, his crew who he works with, the Newtons, they have seen, whilst diving, a White Pointer. So, I think they know what it looks like.

CRAWFORD: Right. Getting back to Dunedin, Otago Peninsula - you said it was known to be sharky. You had mentioned Aramoana, Murderers Beach ...

TERRILL: St. Clair.

CRAWFORD: Where you surfed at quite a bit? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Sharky. Did you hear anything about any other kinds of shark incidences or shark encounters - especially by boarders around the Otago Peninsula? 

TERRILL: No. Apart from the story about how they used to have shark nets, which were supposedly an issue. Because supposedly the sharks were actually breeding within the nets. 

CRAWFORD: They were getting inside, and they weren’t ...

TERRILL: getting out. 

CRAWFORD: Was the idea that the shark nets were not being very effective in keeping the animals out?

TERRILL: Yeah. And that they were keeping them in more so. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Not just not preventing them from coming in, but potentially preventing them from leaving?

TERRILL: I don’t know. Are there still nets there? 

CRAWFORD: No, the nets have been out for a while. What do you know about why White Pointers would be around the Otago Peninsula? Did the surfers ever talk about that? Maybe wonder, of all the places around North and South Islands, why the Otago Peninsula? What is it about that place? 

TERRILL: I don’t know. It drops off, maybe it’s the depth. 

CRAWFORD: The idea that there’s deeper water right there?

TERRILL: Closer in.

CRAWFORD: How would that affect or attract the White Pointers? 

TERRILL: I have no idea. 

CRAWFORD: The surfers didn’t talk about it? They didn’t reckon for a particular reason one way or another? 

TERRILL: No.

CRAWFORD: Did the surfers ever talk about the attacks that took place on the Otago Peninsula, in the same way that they may have talked about attacks at different places in the North Island? 

TERRILL: No. I had no idea that there was someone killed at St. Clair or St. Kilda beach. Until you mentioned it, the other time we met. 

CRAWFORD: For somebody who spent time competing at that location, you heard nothing about it.

TERRILL: There’s no way they would bring North Islanders down and tell them a story like that! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: It gets back to something you said before, that there’s kind of a distance ...

TERRILL: Ignorance, yeah.

CRAWFORD: And that ignorance isn't necessarily on purpose. But you don’t think too much about for hazards, something like that?

TERRILL: So many things that you could do. You could put your board into your eye, you could get eaten by a shark. But you just ignore it. 

CRAWFORD: And you focus on what you’re doing.

TERRILL: Exactly.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s Otago Peninsula. You also did competitive surfing on Banks Peninsula?

TERRILL: I just free surfed around the Akaroa Head. And another place called Magnet Bay. And there’s a wee place on the peninsula called Taylors Mistake. And we competed at Gore Bay, which is up here somewhere. And Kaikoura - I've done quite a bit of surfing round there.

CRAWFORD: That range. And for all of the time that you spent surfing there, was there any discussion - did anybody observe, or have stories about encounters with, White Pointers? 

TERRILL: I think there were rumours that maybe Kaikoura was a little bit sharky. But I never heard any actual stories. 

CRAWFORD: Did anybody attribute why Kaikoura, as opposed to anyplace else? 

TERRILL: No. 

CRAWFORD: For the North Island, and in particular when you were growing up in the Taranaki region, did the old-timers ever take you aside and say that there were dos and don’ts when it comes to sharks? Places, times of year, anything like that? 

TERRILL: The only thing was just don’t piss in the water. 

CRAWFORD: But did the old-timers ever say anything about seasonality? Like don’t be out there at this time of year? 

TERRILL: No.

CRAWFORD: Did they ever say anything about day or night? 

TERRILL: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, dawn and dusk, for sure. Feeding time.

CRAWFORD: Low light? 

TERRILL: Yep

CRAWFORD: Was that the type of thing that the surf community generally kind of followed? 

TERRILL: Yeah. And we still kind of respect it, to a degree. We don’t go surfing at Porridge on low light. We come in. And we definitely don’t pee in the water there. 

CRAWFORD: When you surf Porridge, start maybe 9 am? 

TERRILL: No, we surfed at like 7,8 o’clock onwards. Not right on the first light. 

CRAWFORD: And then you get out when ...

TERRILL: Half an hour, an hour before dark, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: We are still in that five-year period of competitive surfing. We’ve covered the main spots, the North Island, Banks and Otago Peninsulas. Where were the competitive sites in the Southland region? 

TERRILL: Just Riverton, Colac Bay. 

CRAWFORD: And out of those 5 years, how many events do you figure you might have competitively surfed near Riverton? 

TERRILL: Three. 

CRAWFORD: To put things into perspective, what would be the number of events for Otago Peninsula? 

TERRILL: Probably four. 

CRAWFORD: And the region Kaikoura to Banks Peninsula? 

TERRILL: One or two actually.

CRAWFORD: I think you said before, roughly 70% North Island, 30% South Island? 

TERRILL: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: In Riverton, it's qualitatively differently for me because you’re immediately adjacent to the Foveaux Strait. When you competed there during those three competitive events, did anybody take you guys aside and tell you anything about the White Pointers down here? 

TERRILL: No. The only thing I knew about was Centre Island and the Big Wave Challenge. Centre Island’s right in the middle of Foveaux Strait. Fishermen's stories were "Oh, you don’t want to surf out there. That’s a Great White breeding ground out there."

CRAWFORD: Really? They said breeding ground? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What’s a Big Wave Challenge? 

TERRILL: Years ago, there used to be an annual event called Rex Von Huben’s Big Wave Challenge. It was an invitational event, they used to invite all the big, really die-hard chargers who weren’t scared of surfing mountains. And they would take them out to Centre Island on a huge swell. They’d have like a two-week window in the middle of winter. 

CRAWFORD: When you say 'huge swell,' what do you mean? 

TERRILL: I’m talking mammoth waves. Like 30-foot, 40-foot waves. Yeah! 

CRAWFORD: And this would bring in ... it was invitational, so it was big names. International? 

TERRILL: Yeah, there were a couple of international guys from Australia. Ross Clarke-Jones. I think even Tom Carroll might have come once. 

CRAWFORD: This was a serious competition.

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: It was during a specific period of time, when the conditions were just right? They compete offshore in the region between Colac Bay and Stewart Island? 

TERRILL: It's right off the most western tip of Centre Island, the big wave. And it just drops off into deep water. The swells come in, and they jack up on this reef in here - you can see wavy things sticking up there [on the chart]. You can’t surf it without a jet ski. They tow them in with a jet ski.

CRAWFORD: They depart from Colac Bay or someplace else, jet ski out ...

TERRILL: I think they all took them from Riverton.

CRAWFORD: But they're surfing what, 10 or 15 kilometres offshore? 

TERRILL: Yeah

CRAWFORD: With support vessels and all the rest? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: It was an annual event? 

TERRILL: I think it went for three or four years in a row. 

CRAWFORD: And then? 

TERRILL: It was an event that was run by Quiksilver. I don’t know what happened, but funding obviously wasn’t there anymore. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear, under those circumstances, at that sharky place, were ever any shark observations or encounters? 

TERRILL: Not during the event. But speaking to local people about the event, and speaking to local fishermen about it. They just thought these guys were mad. 

CRAWFORD: Not just mad for surfing 40-foot waves.

TERRILL: No. Mad because it was sharky. And not just Sevengillers. 

CRAWFORD: Were the fishermen in this region specifically saying that Centre Island is a White Pointer hotspot? 

TERRILL: That was what I heard, yeah.

CRAWFORD: When did you hear that, roughly? 

TERRILL: Must have been when I first moved down here. Maybe nine years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Was that the final year of the event? 

TERRILL: No. I think the event ran sort of 1999, 2000, 2001 sort of thing. I actually surfed it, me and my mate went out on a Thundercat. We tried to paddle surf it one day, and I just remember freaking out the whole time thinking about it. Not the wave, the sharks. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Was that before you knew about the shark cage dive operations, and any other concerns about changes in white shark abundance, and all the rest of it?

TERRILL: Oh yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Based on what you’ve heard over the past decade that you've been here in Riverton, on the basis of people who have seen White Pointers around Foveaux Strait, what kinds of places have you heard that White Pointers have been seen? 

TERRILL: Right off the Riverton Point. Mason Roderick, who lives a few houses along, he caught a huge, huge White Pointer around there somewhere. There’s a photo of his four-year-old daughter, Jess, standing in its jaw. They’ve got the photo at the house. 

CRAWFORD: How did he catch that shark? Was it tangled up in his setnet? 

TERRILL: I don’t know. This was years and years ago. Jess would be 19 now. 

CRAWFORD: So, in general you know that large White Pointers are known to exist very close to here,

TERRILL: Yeah. And they all think we’re mad for surfing round here. 

CRAWFORD: When you say 'they,' you mean the fishermen? 

TERRILL: Yeah. Guys like him, who've caught White Pointers, or seen the big ones around.

CRAWFORD: I remember you telling me earlier in the interview that you picked this place because of the proximity to the waves. And on top of all that, you’ve invested a big chunk of your life into a business that is oriented around surfing here. I’m just trying to understand, reconcile what’s known and what people have seen, and what they figure the patterns are. What else have you heard from local fishermen or otherwise, with regards to the South Island side of Foveaux Strait? 

TERRILL: Just that somewhere around Porridge, there were places that were sharky. The father of my two kids, they owned a lot of shark quota, and they used to fish it here, in Te Waewae Bay. And he told me when we first moved down here, don’t you ever surf Porridge by yourself. For whatever reason. But you know, I’ve had lots of encounters with Sevengillers. I got bumped two days ago.

CRAWFORD: Was the idea that Porridge was a place where White Pointers were, in particular? 

TERRILL: Supposedly. There and Escape Reefs. 

CRAWFORD: Based on what you had heard, in terms of people that have talked about White Pointers being present at Porridge or at the offshore reefs, are these just observations? Or interactions?

TERRILL: No, I don’t know of any observations of actual real sightings from surfers. The only incident I know of is at Curio Bay last summer, when some surfer was bitten. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Did you know the people involved, or did you know Nick Smart? 

TERRILL: No. I do know Nick though, yes.

CRAWFORD: Did you talk to Nick about it? 

TERRILL: Yeah, I talked to him about it. I actually seen him at the Stewart Island pub, at South Seas Hotel, the night before he was going cage diving. 

CRAWFORD: What did you hear about the Curio Bay event? 

TERRILL: Good friends of mine were there when it happened also. Just that the shark had come from the inside, so it come from the beach side, and attacked him from the beach angle. 

CRAWFORD: Did you hear anything at all in terms of warning signs or any other type of factors that might have played a role? 

TERRILL: Nothing, no. 

CRAWFORD: Are you aware of any aggressive attitude or attacks by White Pointers, on surfers or swimmers or anyone in this region? 

TERRILL: No.

CRAWFORD: And yet there are places, relatively close to the coastline here that are known to be sharky. And there’s direct evidence of very large sharks in close proximity. What the heck?

TERRILL: And I’ve seen the tracking, the GPS pings of the paper that came out. 

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to that shortly. But why is it that such large White Pointers are around here - animals that under other circumstances can be directly involved in attacks on Human - yet there have been few if any incidences here? I mean, Jess - you spend a lot of time on the water surfing, but you don’t see them?

TERRILL: I’m on the top of the water though. And I’m actually in quite shallow water, too. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s a good point. There are two different circumstances I think we need to distinguish - hen you surf for you, versus when you are teaching. When you are teaching, roughly what are the kind of environmental conditions that you teach in? 

TERRILL: I’m generally never over waist-deep water. 

CRAWFORD: So, it's very shallow. And what type of substrate? Sometimes rocky, sometimes sandy - depending on the waves? 

TERRILL: I always teach on the sandy beaches.

CRAWFORD: Based on your experience, that’s just the best place for people who don’t know much about surfing?

TERRILL: It's just safe, yeah. Safe in regards to, there’s going to be no foot kicking of a rock, or an ankle sprain, or running over a rock or banging a head.

CRAWFORD: Once they master the fundamentals of surfing, the opportunities expand? Then you can start surfing more rocky beaches, I’m presuming? I don't know anything about surfing.

TERRILL: I’ve never actually taken any intermediates to any of the experienced waves, the more critical waves. We just don’t share that with novice surfers. That’s something that they will progress to in five years time, maybe. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Tell me more about the intermediate to advanced waters that you personally would surf, when you’re not teaching, but for your own purposes. What kind of environment, over what depth of water, what type of substrate would you be surfing? 

TERRILL: It's deep, and its jacks up to shallow water. So, it just drops off. 

CRAWFORD: Drops off to what kind of depth? 

TERRILL: Like 4 metres, maybe. At the most, forty feet, fifty feet. 

CRAWFORD: And when you say 'jacks up'? 

TERRILL: Yeah, just hits a reef. And that’s what creates the good waves. 

CRAWFORD: So, you’re actually going to surf over a reef when you pick that wave? 

TERRILL: Yeah, but you’re sitting beyond it. Generally. 

CRAWFORD: You’re sitting in deeper water?

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, how much further out would you be when you’re looking to pick up that wave? 

TERRILL: It depends on the size of the swell. If it’s a huge swell, you’ll be sitting way off. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how far?

TERRILL: Half a kilometre out to sea.

CRAWFORD: 500 metres? 

TERRILL: Sometimes, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Really? 

TERRILL: Sometimes. It just depends. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a long way.

TERRILL: Yeah. We were surfing on the outer reef out here the other day, paddle boarding. We were sticking out in the middle of the ocean off the Riverton Point. I caught a wave at 500 metres. It was amazing! One wave. From this outer reef all the way in to the Riverton Bay. It was just incredible. 

CRAWFORD: What makes Porridge such great surfing? I hear a lot about it.

TERRILL: it’s a grunty point break. 

CRAWFORD: What does 'grunty' mean?

TERRILL: It's powerful because it comes in there out of deep water, and it jacks up on a shallow reef.

CRAWFORD: What kind of wave height do you get there? 

TERRILL: Double, sometimes triple, overhead. So, you times three. 

CRAWFORD: You’re five foot something, so we’re talking a 15-foot wave? 

TERRILL: Well, we don’t call it 15 feet. We’d probably call it 8 feet. There’s a big grey area in how you judge the size of a wave. 

CRAWFORD: But Porridge is going to get waves that are around 10 feet maybe?

TERRILL: Oh yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: That’s a big wave.

TERRILL: It's like powerpole height, on its best day. 

CRAWFORD: Someone said don’t you ever swim Porridge alone. Was there any kind of indication about what it matters - whether you’re alone or not? 

TERRILL: No. It’s a false sense of security surfing in numbers, because if it's going to happen, it's going to happen to you anyways. It doesn’t matter if there’s one or ten of you. But surfing in numbers is a false sense of security. You might think "Ok, there’s ten people out, and if there's a shark attack, I’ve got a one in ten chance."

CRAWFORD: Is there a sense among the boarders that a White Pointer would be more reluctant to engage, if there were multiple people around? 

TERRILL: I don’t think so. 

CRAWFORD: It's more just the odds, then? 

TERRILL: I think it's more just a sense of security for yourself. If it did happen, and you were bleeding out, and you were a 20-minute walk back to the car ... I mean, how can you help? Like, Maru Pou nearly lost his eye, and he got carried over the hill, and got to the hospital because he was there with his mates. 

CRAWFORD: What is this story? 

TERRILL: Oh, Maru Pou. He pulled into a big barrel, and the board got him in the eye, and he nearly lost his eye. He couldn’t see, and they had to swim him in ...

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you’ve got a distance of swimming, and then it's not like your car is right there. 

TERRILL: And it's not like you can just float up on the sand. You’ve got to deal with getting in over the rocks and the reef .

CRAWFORD: And then you have the drive. Is there a hospital in Riverton? 

TERRILL: There’s an emergency clinic, but its 20 minutes. 

CRAWFORD: But still, in total you’re talking about an hour or more. Was there anything in any of your experience boarding, that the logic of having a mate was that if something were to happen with a shark, that perhaps having a second person there might minimize a follow-up? 

TERRILL: I don’t know. I never really thought about it like that, to be honest. 

CRAWFORD: So, that idea wasn’t likely in surfers' collective consciousness at the time? 

TERRILL: I think it was more just "You surf, you don’t surf alone." If anything happened, if you got a board to the head, and you’ve knocked yourself out - then you’ve got some people around to help. It was never really like surfing in numbers, so that the sharks don’t get you.

CRAWFORD: Good. You've talked about Centre Island and Escape Reef. You mentioned that your previous husband's family had quota for shark, but that would have been Rigs, I think?

TERRILL: Yeah. They were setnetting, before it was banned.

CRAWFORD: Was there any indication the White Pointers were also being seen in Te Waewae Bay? 

TERRILL: No, I don’t know. There were lots of whales. A lot of whales come in here. 

CRAWFORD: Why do they come in? 

TERRILL: I don’t know, there must be good feeding. There’s a good spot out here called McCracken’s Rest that I’ve surfed, and seen Killer Whales. 

CRAWFORD: In close?

TERRILL: Yeah. And Southern Rights come right through here as well.

CRAWFORD: If we go to the other side of Riverton, what about Oreti Beach, between Riverton and Bluff? 

TERRILL: Apart from the Clinton Duffy GPS ping that I’ve seen, they come in right in through here, I don’t know of any White Pointers. 

CRAWFORD: What about from Bluff due east over to the Catlins?

TERRILL: No, I haven’t heard anything apart from the rumour of the resident White that’s at Haldane, by Slope Point. 

CRAWFORD: I love hearing about these residents, and this is the first I've heard about this one. These are rumours from the surfing community? 

TERRILL: Nick White will tell you about it, because he told me. There’s a reef, an outer reef, that they surf out here.

CRAWFORD: Who surfs? 

TERRILL: Nick and a lot of crew surf there. And there’s a rumour that there’s a White in there. But sometimes you just never know, because they might just want to keep people away. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s the first time anyone has mentioned that possibility. 

TERRILL: It's quite a surf spot. And that does happen. 

CRAWFORD: That people would intentionally exaggerate a rip or some type of hazard in order to keep ...

TERRILL: Usually sharks. 

CRAWFORD: Sharks are good for keeping other people away?

TERRILL: Yeah. Well, spots like that. It's an outer reef that you have to paddle out to. It's really exposed, you’re bobbing out in the middle of the ocean.

CRAWFORD: Right. With regard to Stewart Island, and the smaller islands surrounding it ... Based on everything that you know, including your more recent time with fishermen from the Riverton community, and you’re work with Pāua MAC and all the rest of it, what have you heard about the distribution or abundance of White Pointers around Stewart Island? 

TERRILL: I know they’re pretty abundant at Doughboy, Mason’s Bay. I’m not so sure about the Ruggedies. Sealers Bay. There’s a surf spot around here somewhere that Zane Smith, who’s my children’s uncle, told me never to surf there because it's so sharky. Somewhere around the north here, might be around the Saddle. I’m not sure exactly. But also around, obviously, the Shark Islands. 

CRAWFORD: The Northern Titi Islands?

TERRILL: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Based on what you heard, was there any change over time in the distribution of the White Pointers? Was there a time perhaps when they might have been more abundant on one side of the island or the other? For instance, was this region here on the west side of Stewart Island, based on what you heard, was it always sharky? 

TERRILL: I think this used to always be sharky. But I know that there haven’t been any sightings, that I know of, throughout the commercial Pāua scene since I’ve been working for Pāua MAC. Around here.

CRAWFORD: Around Doughboy and Masons? 

TERRILL: Not that I know of. 

CRAWFORD: Because there’s still Pāua diving happening in that region? 

TERRILL: Yeah. Robbie was there yesterday and today.

CRAWFORD: So, would that be a perceived decrease in abundance of sightings in that region?

TERRILL: Possibly. 

CRAWFORD: And then an increase elsewhere? 

TERRILL: I mean there’s a whole lot of dead whales up in Doughboy. Obviously those islands in the summer months are known to be sharky. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. South-west corner of Stewart Island, have you ever heard about sharks down here? 

TERRILL: No idea. I know nothing about that area.

CRAWFORD: What about outside of the Northern Titi Islands, Ruapuke or any of the other islands out here. Did you ever hear anything about White Pointers around there? 

TERRILL: Yeah, I knew Ruapuke was sharky. And there’s another one actually, I knew that one of these islands was real sharky as well. Someone actually that got chased out of the water there. In the diving scene, Pāua diving in the last ten years or so. Someone, I think it might have even been Ross Newton.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Now in terms of abundance changes over time, based on everything that you’ve heard, have you known of any significant change in numbers? 

TERRILL: I don’t know about numbers, but I think behaviour was a big change. That was noted in the last few years. 

CRAWFORD: Last five years, last ten years? 

TERRILL: Since I’ve been doing Pāua MAC. Just the rumours of changes of behavior. 

CRAWFORD: When those changes get talked about, what kinds of changes are they? 

TERRILL: Showing aggression towards boats, or the prop.

CRAWFORD: What would be an example of aggression towards a boat? 

TERRILL: Attacking the props or something. I’ve heard rumours but no specific stories, it's just what I hear.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You mentioned before, some of the data has been coming out of DOC, their science research program. What do you know about the different research projects which were undertaken? 

TERRILL: Just that there was a tagging program.

CRAWFORD: Do you know what kinds of tags they were using? 

TERRILL: No. Just some sort of acoustic thing.

CRAWFORD: Some type of a pinger that was being put on the animals? Do you know where they tagged their fish? 

TERRILL: No.

CRAWFORD: Or where the White Pointers with pingers went? 

TERRILL: Well, I think that the main part of the tagging program was done around the islands

CRAWFORD: The Northern Titi Islands? 

TERRILL: I think so. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about the satellite GPS tags they were using as well?

TERRILL: That’s the research paper that I was thinking of. I do remember seeing a tracking line that went right thought the bay, past Oerti Beach, right through the Riverton, Taramea Bay, or close in proximity. And it went off and away, I don’t actually remember where. 

CRAWFORD: But that’s important for you, obviously. That’s your region, that’s your zone. 

TERRILL: Yeah.

6. effects of cage tour dive operations

CRAWFORD: Let's switch to the shark cage tour dive operations. You’ve been here for how long? When did you move to Riverton? 

TERRILL: Must have been 2006 or 2007. 

CRAWFORD: During that decade that you've lived in this community, what was the first time that you recall hearing about cage tour dive operations? 

TERRILL: It was probably only a couple of years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Three or four years ago, something like that? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen cage dive operations happening? 

TERRILL: No. 

CRAWFORD: Have you talked to people who’ve been out there on cage dive operations? 

TERRILL: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: I think you mentioned Nick Smart for one. Any others? 

TERRILL: Just a random person that I spoke to on the wharf at Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: What’s your general understanding of what the operations are? So, the boat leaves port, let's say it leaves Bluff. Do you know where they go?

TERRILL: I know it’s somewhere around Edwards Island or Bench Island. Around the northeastern side of Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: They go over there, drop anchor. What do you think would be the next thing that would be involved in the sequence? 

TERRILL: I think they finely mince up Skipjack Tuna, or something like that, into really fine berley. And they also use one throw bait.

CRAWFORD: There’s a throw bait to bring the animals in close to the cage. So they’re berleying, the sharks come into proximity, throw bait, people go into the cage, they see the animals, they take their pictures.

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the operation as described has an important and lasting effect on the sharks? 

TERRILL: Yeah, I think it does have an important, lasting effect, because it's winding them up. You’re just teasing them. And I just think it's stupid. 

CRAWFORD: Is it just the enticing without the pay off, that you think it riles the animals up?

TERRILL: Well, I think for one it conditions their behaviour to associate the sound or the vibration or the electromagnetics of the prop or the boat, to food or the potential for food. 

CRAWFORD: You used the word conditioning. Do you think that the White Pointers are associating the smell of food, with the place, such that the animals stay around Edwards Island more than if there was no cage tour dive operation? 

TERRILL: Probably.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that? Why do you think that the animals would hang around Edwards Island more, because of the association with the smell of food?

TERRILL: Because it's becoming a regular thing, perhaps. 

CRAWFORD: A regular thing, in this case, is just the smell of food. It's not food itself. Do you think that small is enough to bring them and hold them there for longer periods of time?

TERRILL: Yeah, maybe. Maybe it just becomes a habit. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's add the presence specifically of a boat. Do the White Pointers associate the smell of food and the presence of a boat, such that they would be more likely to investigate any boat they might encounter at Edwards Island? Or anywhere else?

TERRILL: I think it’s the vibration of the boat and the smell of food together, as well.

CRAWFORD: So, not necessarily the presence of any old boat, but the presence of a particular boat that they associated with the smell of food? 

TERRILL: No, I just think it’s a boat. It could be any boat. Fluff could rock up in his boat, and they’ll go to his boat. Or another boat will rock up into the area, and they’ll over to their boat. That does happen. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever heard of anyone who’s gone over to Edwards Island, not done anything like berleying or putting food in the water, and the White Pointers have circled around their boat? 

TERRILL: Yeah. I think the children’s father did that. He was fishing nearby, and he was on his way home.

CRAWFORD: He hadn’t cleaned fish or anything like that?

TERRILL: I’d say he would have been cleaning fish, but the Mollymawks get it before the sharks do

CRAWFORD: Ok. But there's still going to be blood that the Mollymawks are not going to get. There’s still going to be a fine mince, like berley, that can come from a fishing boat. That’s why I was trying to think of a boat with no fish cues whatsoever. Even if you took a sailboat over there to Edwards Island, no line fishing or anything. Just a boat.

TERRILL: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Allan and Annie and their yacht. They were coming back out of the inlet, Paterson Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: They came through the Titi Islands? 

TERRILL: Yep. They come out from Bench Island, and they seen a big one. Robbie can tell you the story. 

CRAWFORD: Did they stop? Or were they just cruising through? 

TERRILL: I think they might have stopped. 

CRAWFORD: Off of Edwards or Jackson Lee or one of the other Titi Islands?

TERRILL: Yeah. Right at the entrance of Paterson Inlet there. 

CRAWFORD: It gets back to the idea ... you think White Pointers that have been exposed to cage tour dive operations are more likely to investigate boats - in general? 

TERRILL: I think so, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's talk about specific boats. You made some reference to the noise, the electromagnetics. Do you think that White Pointers are capable of discriminating between different boats? 

TERRILL: Probably. Well, not discriminating. But I think some magnetic fields or electromagnetic pulses, or the vibration of certain boats are probably more attractive. Or they have become more inquisitive about some, more so than others. 

CRAWFORD: Just based on their sound or their vibration or their frequencies? 

TERRILL: Yeah. I think there’s something to be said about the electromagnetics for certain boats and not others. Because the Shark Shields and everything, they use a certain frequency.

CRAWFORD: What’s a Shark Shield? 

TERRILL: Shark-safe technology, where they send out a sound wave or some sort of a shield that pulses outwards.

CRAWFORD: Is this a commercial device? 

TERRILL: You can get fibreglass into your surfboards. Yeah, I met some shark scientists at Stewart Island last year who were working on that research.

CRAWFORD: Research that was based on electromagnetic pulses? 

TERRILL: Yeah. It sends out a pulse.

CRAWFORD: And you can get these things built into boards? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: They were selling them, or testing them, or doing what? 

TERRILL: They were trying to test it.

CRAWFORD: To see if it did work? And they reckoned it did? 

TERRILL: Well, they rocked up with their permit, and went to go and do it at the Titi Islands.

CRAWFORD: You talked to them over at Stewart Island? 

TERRILL: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, here's you as a surfer, a previously nationally-ranked, competitive surfer. And you’re talking to these Shark Shield researchers ...

TERRILL: Who were testing this technology from Western Australia. But they got told to bugger off ...

CRAWFORD: Told by whom?

TERRILL: The shark cage guys who were trying to do their business over there, and these other guys trying to test their equipment over there. 

CRAWFORD: Nearby? How close were they? 

TERRILL: I don’t know.

CRAWFORD: I can understand why, if someone is running a shark cage tour dive operation, and they see somebody come in with something that is promoting to repel sharks ...

TERRILL: I don’t even think they got a chance to try it.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You said they had a permit?

TERRILL: DOC [Department of Conservation] pulled their permit.

CRAWFORD: Oh. Is that what they told you? 

TERRILL: Yeah. This was coming back in from their first day or two days out.

CRAWFORD: And that’s when you talked to them? 

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Well, I’m still interested though. You’re a lead surfer, you’ve met these guys. Is that technology something that you personally would either put in your board, or that you would advise either your students or your mates to have some type of anti-shark electromagnetic device like this? 

TERRILL: I mean you can get the Shark Shield, which is like a big long antenna that you wear off a cuffling on your ankle. Divers wear them as well. 

CRAWFORD: How long has that technology been around? 

TERRILL: It's probably been around for at least two or three years. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever used one? 

TERRILL: No. 

CRAWFORD: Has anyone you know ever used one? 

TERRILL: No. Because they look ridiculously inconvenient. You’ve got this big long antenna off your foot. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know if they work? 

TERRILL: There’s research to show that it does, but there’s also research to say that it actually attracts the sharks in to that vibration, or that electromagnetic pulse, that its sending out - and then at the last two metres, they quickly go away. 

CRAWFORD: Really?

TERRILL: But what it goes flat? [laughs]

CRAWFORD: Right. So, bottom line is you don’t use this technology and you don’t know people in your circles that do?

TERRILL: But all the guys in Western Australia and South Australia are having them glassed into their boards. 

CRAWFORD: All of them? 

TERRILL: Most of them. So many of them are. 

CRAWFORD: But western Australia compared to here ... If I asked that same question over in Western Australia "Have you seen or have you heard about aggressive encounters with White Pointers?", it's seems like it's one per month over there! It's almost never here in New Zealand ... and I’m not saying that the density of sharks is as high here as it is there. But certainly the White Pointer-Human encounters seem radically different. What the hell? How come? 

TERRILL: I don’t know! 

CRAWFORD: But I’m asking you! 

TERRILL: I have no idea. [laughs] I’m not a shark scientist! 

CRAWFORD: I know. You’re an elite surfer. But It’s the elite surfers who are at risk, in one of the most at-risk communities over there in Australia. And they’re taking these actions to get these Shark Shields embedded in their boards. Do you reckon that they must think that it works? Or are they just so desperate for anything? 

TERRILL: I think they know it works, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Oh, ok. Do you know people that are surfing over there? 

TERRILL: Not personally, but ...

CRAWFORD: But you hear. And you have your own reliable sources, and you figure from what you hear, that people over there see the need for it. That they think that the technology does work. 

TERRILL: The company of the product that I was looking at is called Surf Safe. And they’re just yet to tick the box, to prove. That’s what they were doing here. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Is that the technology where there’s evidence for and against them working?

TERRILL: No, that’s another one called Shark Shield. 

CRAWFORD: Oh, ok. That’s the outfit that had the DOC permit, and then DOC withdrew their permit - not just at Edwards Island or wherever it was, but withdrew it completely? 

TERRILL: Yeah. I didn’t see them, because we had to get on the ferry the next morning.

CRAWFORD: Alright. So, we talked about association, conditioning to the place. Conditioning to a boat. Conditioning to specific boats. Have you ever heard of anything about White Pointers following boats? 

TERRILL: Robbie had one follow him for a short time when they were fishing down there.

CRAWFORD: Fishing, as in Pāua diving? 

TERRILL: No, as in he had a bunch of the Riverton primary school children on his boat down at Stewart Island ...

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts? 

TERRILL: Just doing a play trip. Down at Stewart island around the north side. You’d have to confirm that with him. But they were going to Halfmoon Bay, and they were having a play fish

CRAWFORD: Line fishing? 

TERRILL: Yeah. And a small White Pointer come up at the back of the boat, and followed them for a short time. Before they knew - it was gone. And the kids were like "Wow, it’s a shark!". And he didn’t really think anything of it. And they were like "It’s a White Shark!" And he runs down the back of the boat, and sure enough it was like a two metre White Pointer. 

CRAWFORD: Really? That’s actually exceptional, and I will ask him specifically about that. Because there are very few people who have seen such small White Pointers in that region. Which is another part of the puzzle. Why is it that we don’t see the little White Pointers down south here? Let's get back to following behaviour. Based on all of your experience, and all of the things you’ve heard from other people, was there ever any indication that White Pointers follow surfers? 

TERRILL: Not that I know of. 

CRAWFORD: Some people think that there is following behaviour, the question is whether there are cues. For instance, did Robbie's boat have fish on a line that had attracted the shark's attention? Or berley, or anything like that? 

TERRILL: I think he had lines in the water. And this actually sparks a wee memory of a surfer that was actually tow-surfing, as in 'scurfing' behind a boat in Southwest or Western Australia. And he was actually just surfing behind the boat on a line ...

CRAWFORD: Like waterskiing?

TERRILL: Like waterskiing, but on a surfboard. And he got taken. He was killed. And they thought it was the whole lure thing, behind the boat. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that it is likely that White Pointers associate the smell of food, with the presence of a cage person in the water, such that if they see a person in the water someplace else at another time, that they would be more likely to investigate? 

TERRILL: I think it’s a possibility, yeah.

CRAWFORD: It's a possibility, but do you think that it is probable or likely? That there will be an increase in the frequency or the intensity of investigation or pursuit later on, because of the association of smell with the Humans that are submerged in the cage? Do you think that it's likely?

TERRILL: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you that would significantly increase the at-risk communities? The swimmers, the surfers, the freedivers, the snorkelers, the Pāua divers, the spearfishermen and the scubadivers - that set of people who spend time in or around the water?

TERRILL: Yeah. I think we are all at increased risk.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that? Why do you think that they would make the association, and that it would change their later response to Humans in the water? 

TERRILL: Without there being a cage, I guess it's just an opportunity.

CRAWFORD: Something that they would do. But they would do more likely? Or more frequently? 

TERRILL: Yeah, I guess so. It gives them that increased opportunity, you know. 

Copyright © 2019 Jess Terrill and Steve Crawford