Richard Ledgerwood

YOB: 1934
Experience: Commercial Fisherman
Regions: Otago, Catlins, Foveaux Strait, Stewart Island, Fiordland
Interview Location: Sawyers Bay, Dunedin, NZ
Interview Date: 15 February 2016
Post Date: 03 September 2020; Copyright © 2020 Dick Ledgerwood and Steve Crawford

CRAWFORD: For the record, it is Monday the 15th of February 2016, with Dick Ledgerwood, and we’re in Sawyers Bay, Dunedin. And we are specifically talking about an event that you experienced quite some time ago. An event that I think will turn out to be something important for people who work on White Pointers, and especially their conservation and ecology. First of all, just to set the context, the Reader is going to want to know something about you. So, what's your full name, what year were you born and where?

LEDGERWOOD: I’m Richard Desmond Ledgerwood, and September 19th in 1934.

CRAWFORD: That’s all for the formalities on this one. Roughly, how many years were you a commercial fisherman?

LEDGERWOOD: Forty-three.

CRAWFORD: You started at roughly what age?

LEDGERWOOD: Fifteen.

CRAWFORD: And when did you retire?

LEDGERWOOD: Sixty.

CRAWFORD: When you were fishing, was it always out of Port Chalmers?

LEDGERWOOD: No. Bluff and Port Chalmers, and around the fiords.

CRAWFORD: Was that an annual cycle from here? Or had you relocated to Bluff?

LEDGERWOOD: No, still lived here in ... well, in Deborah Bay in those days. And then Dunedin. When I was fishing, it was Dunedin and Port Chalmers, but worked out of Bluff - left the boat in Bluff.

CRAWFORD: What type of vessels did you have in your career?

LEDGERWOOD: It was a wooden vessel, a fifty-foot double-ender which my Father and Uncle had built. And then I had started with them, bought my Uncle’s share out when I was seventeen. And then later on, my Father’s share. It was a boat that was 'commissioned' by the U.S. to be used at a barge in Vanuatu during the 2nd World War.

CRAWFORD: When you were fishing in the Otago Peninsula region, what kind of fisheries were you involved in?    

LEDGERWOOD: Well, mostly Crayfishing here. And also wetfish, trawling - for Soles mainly. 

CRAWFORD: Bottom-trawling?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, bottom-trawling.

CRAWFORD: What would the split have been in those activities? 50% Crayfishing, 50% trawling?

LEDGERWOOD: Possibly was, yes.

CRAWFORD: In terms of the Crayfishing, was this using Craypots?

LEDGERWOOD: Yes. When we first started off, it was with my Father and Uncle. We went around the Sounds, and we trawled Big Bay and Jackson's Bay - until they got a potting license.

CRAWFORD: Specifically, for the time you fished here around the Otago Peninsula, was it a mixed Crayfishing-trawling operation then as well?

LEDGERWOOD: Yes, it was.

CRAWFORD: Were you a day fisherman?

LEDGERWOOD: No, mainly away for a few days - mainly south.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'south', do you mean down to the Nuggets?

LEDGERWOOD: Down to the Nuggets, or down as far as to Waikawa. All depends on the weather. And through the [Foveaux] Straits.

CRAWFORD: In terms of your time spent on the water around the Otago Peninsula then, did you actually fish this region? Or was it mostly in transit to other places?

LEDGERWOOD: When we fished, it was a few days at a time. We had to freeze it, and fill the freezer up. We wouldn’t ever come home unless it was full.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you were fishing the Otago region, what were the kind of areas you would've spent most of your time around?

LEDGERWOOD: Mainly around Nuggets and that area, more south around Chaslands.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In your entire history, how many White Pointers do you reckon you’ve seen? 

LEDGERWOOD: Well, I don’t know to be honest. But I have seen at least twelve or fourteen, I would say.

CRAWFORD: Of that number, how many do you reckon you’ve seen here around the Otago Peninsula? 

LEDGERWOOD: Well, we have seen them at the Heads [Taiaroa Head], at the entrance, years ago - feeding through there. And the other ones were mainly about eight miles off the coast. And off the Nuggets. I used to Crayfish out there, and had a patch to myself. On a really calm day, they were just cruising around. And they made you hang on when you were walking around the boat. 

CRAWFORD: I’m sure you did. That far offshore ... what do you think was accounting for those White Pointers being out there?

LEDGERWOOD: I don’t know. They’d just feed perhaps. And just loafing about. you know? Just cruising.  

CRAWFORD: At the surface?

LEDGERWOOD: Just at the surface with their dorsal fin out, yeah. Cruising.

CRAWFORD: Was it typically a Drive-By with your vessel, or did they Circle?

LEDGERWOOD: Sometimes they’d Circle around. Come and have a look at you, and then just go away. 

CRAWFORD: Were you doing anything particular at the time that would’ve attracted their attention?

LEDGERWOOD: No, just hauling our pots.

CRAWFORD: So, you were just lifting your Craypots. You weren’t cleaning any fish at the time?

LEDGERWOOD: No, not during the Crayfishing, no. We’d throw the old bait over the side, but they didn’t worry about that. 

CRAWFORD: You’re one of the first people to tell me about seeing the White Pointers that far offshore. What about the White Pointers that you saw at the Heads? Roughly when would that have been?

LEDGERWOOD: Oh, maybe thirty years ago, I suppose, we mostly saw them. Not so many of the White Pointers, but there were a lot of Basking Sharks in my day out there. Like early day, with my Father and Uncle. They’d be feeding on the Krill. But mind you, the Krill’s gone now. There’s none. And also, down off round the Nuggets area, around off towards Chaslands - they’d be feeding down there too, the Basking Sharks. But the Krill’s gone. There used to be ... the water was just red. The beaches were so thick in the Harbour with Krill. But no, not now. If you see a little school of them that’s something.

CRAWFORD: The White Pointers you saw off the Heads, about thirty years ago - were you just steaming by?

LEDGERWOOD: Yes. Just steaming on the way out and back through there.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember roughly what time of year it would’ve been?

LEDGERWOOD: No. No, not really.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember approximately where around the Heads you were?

LEDGERWOOD: Just off Taiaroa Heads. It was around that area.

CRAWFORD: Immediately off?

LEDGERWOOD: Not too far off. Half a mile or so, that you’d be into.

CRAWFORD: The reason I’m asking is that there were some people who talked about fish processing waste being dumped off the Heads.

LEDGERWOOD: Yes, that’s right.

CRAWFORD: Did you see that dumping?

LEDGERWOOD: No. Well, they weren’t doing it when I was around. They used to dump them over the chute. They had a big chute there, and that’s bloody why the White Pointers were hanging around there. Because there was Otakou Fisheries down at the old Kaik [Māori fishing village] that runs along the coast of the Harbour, from just inside the Heads to the Otakau marae area. A fish factory there. They used the chute to put all their offal over. My Aunt and Uncle said "Yeah, the Sharks are here for the offal."

CRAWFORD: The White Pointers you saw off the Heads, were they just kind of there? Or did they interact with your boat at all?

LEDGERWOOD: No, no - didn’t worry them.

CRAWFORD: You just saw them?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Did you typically see one, or a couple?

LEDGERWOOD: Two or three sometimes. And then often just the one. But yeah, there was always Sharks back in those days. The Basking Sharks would be one, two or three sometimes, going along there too.

CRAWFORD: How many times did you see a White Pointer in Otago Harbour itself? 

LEDGERWOOD: Well, that once out here while they were copulating or whatever you call it.

CRAWFORD: We’ll get to that in a minute. You never saw them in the Lower Harbour?

LEDGERWOOD: I saw them at Carey’s Bay, where the fishing boats are. One went under the wharf. Wasn’t a massive one, but they were there. And also on Thomas Point they caught one in a set net - over at Bill Attfield’s.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember roughly when that would’ve been?

LEDGERWOOD: I don’t know. Danny Gardiner - he would’ve known. Have you heard of him?

CRAWFORD: No, his name hasn’t come up yet. Is he from Port Chalmers?

LEDGERWOOD: He lived over there. And he was always over there with Bill Attfield, when the Shark was caught.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever see any White Pointers way up into the Upper Harbour?

LEDGERWOOD: Well, I’ve seen Sharks up in the town basin. But I don’t know how big they were - just saw the fins.

CRAWFORD: Do you reckon it was a White Pointer?

LEDGERWOOD: I think so, yeah - a short one.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, how close to town was that?

LEDGERWOOD: Right in the basin. In the basin where the boat was. I used to look after it for a local man, and saw them up swimming there.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s focus specifically on a rather unusual event that you had seen. To the extent that you remember, roughly what year was it?     

LEDGERWOOD: Then? It would be almost twenty years anyway, just about but not. I’m thinking it's about the same time as my boat was launched, which was eighteen years ago.

CRAWFORD: So, maybe the late '90s?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, it would’ve been.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember what time of year it was?

LEDGERWOOD: I don’t know. I don’t. Roy Innes [Dick’s mate on the Shirley B at the time] wouldn’t either, now. He’s not very well.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Tell me what you do remember. Tell me just as much as you can.

LEDGERWOOD: Well, like out here on the Harbour. We were taking a boat called the ‘Shirley B’ from Dunedin down to Port Chalmers to fuel her up. Roy and myself. And actually Roy, when we were coming down off the Gut out on the Harbour here, he says “Oh, Dick. There’s something white in the water back there.” We turned around, and came back, had a look. And it was two Sharks wedged close together, and they were just revolving round and round, very, very slowly. So, we watched them for about five minutes. And then we carried on, but they were still, y’know, 'active' when we left. And that's the first time I’ve ever seen it - and Roy too. Roy’s a bit older than me. And a lot of people didn’t believe us. But there it was.

CRAWFORD: To the best of your memory, when would this have been?

LEDGERWOOD: I think it was 1997, in the spring before we took the Shirley B to Australia for a spell. [Sir Clifford Skeggs, then-owner of the Shirley B confirms that his records indicate a date for the incident on or around 01 November 1997]

CRAWFORD: What depth of water do you reckon the animals were in?

LEDGERWOOD: Well, probably about fourteen feet of water - at the most. But close to high tide there.

CRAWFORD: That’s still real shallow.

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, they were. And of course, where they were, apart from the Gutway that’s just on the edge of the sandbanks out there. Those sandbanks are exposed when the tide’s right out [low tide]. 

CRAWFORD: So, even if they were on the bottom - it was a sandy bottom? There was no rock bottom or anything?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, yeah, very sandy. No, it’s not rocks - just all sand.

CRAWFORD: And the Gutway - is that where the boats are going up and down the Upper Harbour?

LEDGERWOOD: No. Well, just inside the Gutway. The Gutway is on the edge of this sandbanks itself, just outside the beacons.

CRAWFORD: Is this a channel passage that is dredged on a regular basis? 

LEDGERWOOD: Yes, yeah. I suppose when they do dredge the sand, it will fall back and drop in off the banks.

CRAWFORD: In between the two islands there, that's the kind of break between the Lower and Upper Harbour? Here's an image. There’s Goat Island, and Quarantine Island, Port Chalmers. Where’s the channel? 

LEDGERWOOD: Well, there's the channel coming through [the islands] there, isn’t it? See the deep water? So, it’s just up a bit about here, where there’s a wee Gutway. You’ll see it [later when Dick and Jenny would take my Wife Patrice and I out on his boat, to the location where he saw the White Pointers mating]. You see it goes a bit deeper, and the channel runs through.

CRAWFORD: It's on the south side of the channel?

LEDGERWOOD: Yes. That's Roseneath, and Blanket Bay. So, there's the channel and there's the Gut.

CRAWFORD: Oh, I see - so the Gutway’s not off Sawyer’s Bay. It's off Blanket Bay?

LEDGERWOOD: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Your mate Roy, he said he saw something white over there, and then you saw it too?

LEDGERWOOD: No, he said when he was out on deck “Oh. there's something in the water back there.” So, we turned around.

CRAWFORD: Did the White Pointers respond to you coming around at all?

LEDGERWOOD: No, no. They just carried on with what they were doing.

CRAWFORD: This was a big boat - the Shirley B?

LEDGERWOOD: It was a 100 foot boat, the motor launch.

CRAWFORD: So, this was a big boat coming around close - and these two Sharks were completely preoccupied?

LEDGERWOOD: Yep, yep.

CRAWFORD: How close do you reckon you got to the animals? 

LEDGERWOOD: About the length of this room.

CRAWFORD: We're talking maybe ten metres?

LEDGERWOOD: Ten metres, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Right up close to them?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, we just drifted up, and they didn’t worry. I mean you wouldn’t, would you?

CRAWFORD: Well, I don’t know.

LEDGERWOOD: Well, I wouldn’t. [Chuckles]

CRAWFORD: No, I guess not. [Both chuckle heartily] You said before that the animals were rolling?

LEDGERWOOD: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Did you get the impression that, somehow, they were attached?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, they were. Locked together. And just revolving in slow circles [indicates around the longitudinal axis that runs head to tail].

CRAWFORD: In slow revolutions?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: How long would it take them to roll?

LEDGERWOOD: Well, I don’t really know. We just watched them for a bit.

CRAWFORD: If you guessed - would it take maybe ten seconds? 

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, probably about that.

CRAWFORD: And rolling over this way [around the animal’s longitudinal axis].

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, locked together.

CRAWFORD: Locked?

LEDGERWOOD: See the dark colour on the top, then the light as they went around.

CRAWFORD: Did one animal have a clamp on the other? Like with the mouth? Do you remember?

LEDGERWOOD: No. Not about the mouth, no. Didn’t really see it.

CRAWFORD: Were they head to head?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, they were head to head.

CRAWFORD: And were the heads kind of even …

LEDGERWOOD: Yes, together - by the side or belly, certainly not back to back. Yes, the whole thing was.

CRAWFORD: The tip of one head, to the tip of the other?

LEDGERWOOD: Probably was, yeah. Revolving.

CRAWFORD: How confident are you that one animal didn’t have a bite on the other? Like on the pectoral fin?

LEDGERWOOD: Oh, no. We didn’t know. It was sand amongst them, with them.

CRAWFORD: So, you couldn’t really tell?

LEDGERWOOD: No, not that they were clenched on.

CRAWFORD: The only reason I bring this up is, although nobody has seen these animals mating, some people assume there is clamping - that the male clamps onto the female either behind the head or on the pectoral fin.

LEDGERWOOD: I can’t really see that.

CRAWFORD: But they were rolling together?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, just revolving.

CRAWFORD: Were they also swimming along?

LEDGERWOOD: No, no. Just moving in one spot. Rolling and rolling and rolling.

CRAWFORD: If I heard you correctly, you said that you and Roy watched for about five minutes?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, we did. Stop and watched it there.

CRAWFORD: In the entire five minutes that you watched, did the animals do anything different? 

LEDGERWOOD: No. Just kept in that one spot.

CRAWFORD: Ok. And then you and Roy had a job to do with this 100 foot vessel.

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah. Well, we were keeping it in one spot too - well, I was. That was quite something.

CRAWFORD: And then you bid your farewell.

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, we didn’t even blow the whistle.

CRAWFORD: No? [Both chuckle]

LEDGERWOOD: No. But I mean it was something. I’ve never seen anything …

CRAWFORD: In all of the time that you had spent on the water, had any of the old-timers or anybody else that you ever heard of, then or since, ever talked about something similar?

LEDGERWOOD: No, no. No. I honestly think some people thought we were seeing things. But we definitely weren’t. Because we turned back to go and watch to see what it was. And I probably wouldn’t have spotted it - but Roy was out on deck and he said “Oh, Dick. Something's going on back there. And you can see the white in the water.” 

CRAWFORD: Roughly, if you had to remember and guess - how big would these White Pointers have been?

LEDGERWOOD: Even where we are to that wall, I reckon. Easy.

CRAWFORD: We're talking four meters?

LEDGERWOOD: Yeah, might be longer. They’re a big fish. Of course, they are stirring a bit of the sand up while they're doing this revolving.

Copyright © 2020 Dick Ledgerwood and Steve Crawford