Dallas Bradley

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Dallas, where and when were you born?

BRADLEY: Born in Invercargill, 1953. 

CRAWFORD: When did you first start spending a significant amount of time around New Zealand coastal waters? 

BRADLEY: When I was a primary school child. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how old? 

BRADLEY: Oh, probably seven or eight. 

CRAWFORD: And what was the context? Did your family have a holiday house or something like that?

BRADLEY: No. We used to go Floundering at Oreti Beach an awful lot. Well, my parents did. My Father, in particularly - and another guy. We used to go Floundering at Oreti Beach, not every weekend, but an awful lot of weekends. 

CRAWFORD: What was involved in Floundering?

BRADLEY: Dragging a net 20- to 30-metre long net. 

CRAWFORD: A seine? A beach seine?

BRADLEY: Yeah. I suppose you call it that. Drag it through the surf to catch Flounders. 

CRAWFORD: Was that something you did every year?

BRADLEY: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Was there a particular time of year for that?

BRADLEY: Well, I remember doing quite a bit in winter. But it was probably more so mid-winter to mid-summer. I don’t recall any particular season then, but I know a bit more now about when the Flounders are more likely to be there, than I did in those days. So, I’d often go to the beach, and the Floundering spot - there's always a spot - used to be certain distance down from the main entrance.

CRAWFORD: The main entrance to the Oreti Beach?

BRADLEY: Yeah. Often, myself and my Brother we’d get out of the car at the entrance, and then walk down the beach. Just sort of scavenge and beachcomb. In those days, we were particularly interested in picking up beer bottles. Because they were worth a bob or a penny each.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What other types of water activities? Did you ever do any boating or fishing?

BRADLEY: Not really in those days. Just a wee bit of Trout fishing down by the spit. We did a bit of Toheroaing in those days.

CRAWFORD: Rowing? 

BRADLEY: Toheroa-ing.

CRAWFORD: What is that?

BRADLEY: Catching Toheroas. It’s a shellfish. It’s about four to five inches long.

CRAWFORD: Is it marine? Or freshwater in the estuary?

BRADLEY: It’s marine. You catch them in the mid-tide regions on Oreti Beach. Oreti Beach is the best Toheroa beach in New Zealand. Ninety Mile Beach used to be pretty good, but it's not anymore. Still plenty of Toheroa on Oreti Beach.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about swimming or surfing, back in the day?

BRADLEY: Not much swimming. It was always pretty cold. Well, the water wasn’t all that cold, but the weather was cold and breezy - which I didn’t like. 

CRAWFORD: So, Floundering and some shellfish harvesting? Those were the big things?

BRADLEY: Yeah. But more so Floundering. Apart from Flounders, we also caught quite a few Elephant Fish. And Sand Sharks, and Dog Fish. We used to sell the Flounders, and we used to sell the Elephant Fish and the Dog Fish. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That goes through your elementary school days, and into your high school days?

BRADLEY: Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

CRAWFORD: At any point in time, was there a significant new activity or a new region, that would have been added to your coastal activities? Did you start doing new things, in term of boating or fishing or spending time around the water? Or did you start going to new places?

BRADLEY: No. When I was seventeen, I went to University in Dunedin for three years. In that period, my trips to the beach was kind of on holidays. Then after I graduated, I went to Hamilton.  

CRAWFORD: What program were you in at University of Otago? 

BRADLEY: I dd Land Survey at Otago. 

CRAWFORD: Did you do any significant amount of time on or around coast when you were on the Otago Peninsula, or in that Otago region?

BRADLEY: Not a lot. The odd visit to St. Clair Beach.

CRAWFORD: Did you come back to Invercargill, Oreti Beach on a regular basis?

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And the same kind of activities you’d be involved with before? Maybe once a month through your school years? 

BRADLEY: Yeah, Much more infrequent basis, but yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I think you said after your degree you moved to Hamilton?

BRADLEY: Yep.

CRAWFORD: That was for a job?

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Forgive me for not knowing - Hamilton is North Island?

BRADLEY: Yeah. It's about an hour and a half drive south of Auckland. It’s pretty much an inland city. Which was one thing that I didn’t particularly like about it, but anyway. 

CRAWFORD: Because you’re a coastal boy? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. And it was one of the reasons why, after ten years, I chose to move away from Hamilton. 

CRAWFORD: So, over that whole time period in Dunedin and then Hamilton, you spent much reduced time around New Zealand coastal waters?

BRADLEY: Definitely, definitely. But I got to a few places like the Coromandel and Tauranga on the east coast, and Mokau and Kawhia and Raglan on the west coast. 

CRAWFORD: When you got to those places, what kinds of activities were you doing?

BRADLEY: Most of the times, I was actually working in those areas. But I went over to Tauranga, and did a bit of kayaking in the sea. Not very often, but I did once or twice. 

CRAWFORD: So, dabbling in a few places around North Island? Then after ten years ... you would have been 30 maybe?

BRADLEY: Early 30’s, yeah. I had a couple of stints, short term stints, overseas. One in Western Samoa for three months, and one in Saba in North Borneo for three months. Not too much in the coastal arena happened there. And then, I went to Western Samoa for two years on a hydroelectric project. And then in 1985, we returned to New Zealand. I was looking for work. I could have worked in Hamilton, ended up in Invercargill for a holiday, looked for a job that was here. I found a job in the Southland Catchment Board, and worked there for Catchment Board or it’s successors for 30 years. 

CRAWFORD: The Southland Catchment Board - is that what it was called back in the day? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. It became the Southland Regional Council, with much wider responsibilities. 

CRAWFORD: Wider geographically, or wider in terms of mandate?

BRADLEY: Well, certainly wider geographically, but more so the mandate. 

CRAWFORD: Geographically, did it include coastal waters?

BRADLEY: Geographically, there wasn’t too much coastal activity for a startoff. And never really west beyond the Waiau River. 

CRAWFORD: Which is where? 

BRADLEY: Oh, the westernmost big river. This one here, running in the middle of Te Waewae Bay. That was pretty much central pine stuff. 

CRAWFORD: Over time, what did it what did the Council's geographic scope become? 

BRADLEY: Well, our boundaries became much bigger. Our northwestern-most boundary was Awarua Point at the north end of Big Bay. 

CRAWFORD: Yes - all the way down?

BRADLEY: Extended all the way down, right through Fiordland, right around Stewart Island ... 

CRAWFORD: And long the northern coastline of Foveaux Strait? 

BRADLEY: Yep.

CRAWFORD: And then how far up?

BRADLEY: Up to a bit east of Waikawa Harbour. 

CRAWFORD: So, over towards Chaslands? 

BRADLEY: Yeah, to Chasland's Mistake as it's shown on that chart you've got here.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Give a sense, from a professional perspective, of what your Council responsibilities were - specifically with regards to coastal waters?

BRADLEY: Well about 1993, I was in charge of preparing the first regional coastal plan for the Southland Region. And that covered just about all activities apart from fishing, in the coastal marine area of Southland, which was one seventh of New Zealand's coastal marine area. The coastal marine area extends twelve miles out from the mean highwater mark, and it includes all the bays and the fiords and the estuaries. The scope of that plan was to address most activities that occurred in the coastal marine area, including water quality issues. In preparing that coastal plan, we set up working parties, we very much took a 'values approach'; the idea was to protect the values of the coastal marine area. Whenever we looked at a particular section of coastline, we would bring in two or three people that had particular knowledge of that area. But we also had regular working party members, including representatives from the fishing industry, the tourism industry, Iwi, etcetera.

CRAWFORD: The Iwi in this case is Ngāi Tahu?

BRADLEY: Yes. And Fish & Game, DOC. 

CRAWFORD: I wanted to come back to an important distinction you made - coastal planning in this context, you said, was everything except fisheries? 

BRADLEY: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Fisheries is now MPI, but back then was Ministry of Fisheries?

BRADLEY: Yeah. And management of fisheries was specifically excluded from the Resource Management Act. So, there was a wee bit of a grey area. 

CRAWFORD: But to be clear, fisheries is harvesting. In terms of the conservation of non-harvested species - for instance, something like Orca - that would have been something that would come at least partially within your Council's mandate?

BRADLEY: Oh, for sure, Issues like water quality and habitat protection are a key part of the Resource Management Act. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Not solely Council's, but in conjunction with DOC or EPA or whomever else. Right? 

BRADLEY: Yes. We always dealt quite a bit with Fishermen. In fact, I used to enjoy working with Fishermen because I always thought they were bloody good observers. I didn’t always think that they drew the right conclusions from what they saw, but they were good observers. And they’re out there doing it 24/7 damn near - at least the 7. Whereas our Scientists, they're pretty 'snapshotty,' you know? They go out there, and there's the odd snapshot; there might be some sort regular monitoring program, but even then - it's probably every month or something like that. Whereas, in my observation of the sea and the coastline - it's really changing, there's always something a little subtle going on. You know, one day all this stuff will wash up on the shoreline, and “Oh, where the hell did that come from? Why’d that suddenly wash up now?" Or certain shellfish might have died, and you think "Why did happen?” And the evidence is only around for two or three days, a week, something like that. Scientists don’t see it. They’re only monitoring certain things anyway; they’re not monitoring everything. 

CRAWFORD: I think that’s a very valuable insight from a self-proclaimed generalist. You were required, because of your profession, because of your job, to deal with a whole bunch of different issues from a variety of different perspectives.

BRADLEY: Yeah. And the other thing was, I really enjoyed doing the coastal thing, because I was interested in the coast and coastal things. They just fitted really well with my interests. It was easy, in some ways. 

CRAWFORD: During your years with Southland Regional Council, were you doing any other coastal, marine activities?

BRADLEY: I still did a bit of Floundering. And still did a lot of general beachcombing. Going to the beach, driving along the beach, seeing what’s new. 

CRAWFORD: Weekends, or time off, or vacation? 

BRADLEY: Yeah, weekends. Or after work, something like that. 

CRAWFORD: What was the geographical region for those kinds of activities? 

BRADLEY: Mainly Oreti Beach. I think it was late-80s that I started to do a wee bit of scubadiving. And I took up windsurfing, when I was 40, I seem to recall. 

CRAWFORD: And that would have been? 

BRADLEY: That would have been 1993 - late-80s, early-90s maybe. 

CRAWFORD: Windsurfing where? 

BRADLEY: Initially it was mainly Awarua Bay which is right at the top end of Bluff Harbour. Nice bit of water actually. Very good water quality Not any fresh water running into it. 

CRAWFORD: And that’s where you were doing your windsurfing? 

BRADLEY: Until I became competent enough to actually windsurf sometimes at Oreti Beach. I windsurf there quite a bit. 

CRAWFORD: Were you still Floundering at Oreti Beach?

BRADLEY: Yeah. Still doing a bit of Floundering in those days. Did less and less Floundering as time went on. But now I drive down the beach, and watch what other people are doing. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Anything else change, in terms of your coastal activities? 

BRADLEY: I'd say early-90s, I also took up scubadiving.

CRAWFORD: Where would you go scubadiving? 

BRADLEY: Usually out from Bluff. Sometimes out towards Ruapuke, Bird Island, round behind Bluff. But I didn’t particularly enjoy that, because I used to get a bit seasick. That took the edge off scubadiving. I used to do quite a bit of scubadiving in Fiordland in Doubtful Sound. I used to really enjoy that because it was always calm water, and I never got seasick. 

CRAWFORD: Let’s get a sense for those activities. Was there seasonality to your windsurfing and your scubadiving? 

BRADLEY: Windsurfing was more spring/summer. 

CRAWFORD: And scubadiving?

BRADLEY: We did a fair bit of that in winter. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. You were holding down a fulltime job, when you were doing windsurfing, would it have been one day a week? Something like that?

BRADLEY: Yeah, maybe one day a fortnight. Sometimes less, sometimes more. 

CRAWFORD: And scubadiving, the same kind of thing? 

BRADLEY: Oh, less frequent. 

CRAWFORD: Once a month? 

BRADLEY: I’m not a big-time scubadiver, but I did about 50-odd dives around the end of Fiordland. 

CRAWFORD: Ok.

BRADLEY: Round about 1993, I went to Stewart Island for the first time actually. I went to Mason Bay. Flew to Oban, took the water-taxi up to Freshwater River Hut, and walked from here to Mason Bay, went down to the beach, saw a plane on the beach and thought "Next time I come here, I’m coming by plane." I eventually walked out, and I actually had a meeting with the Stewart Island Community Board to go to, on the way out. Since then, I’ve actually been to Mason Bay probably 75-80 times. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That's good to know. I think you said your scubadiving and windsurfing years, starting early-90’s - did that continue on? 

BRADLEY: Well, I still do a wee bit of windsurfing.

CRAWFORD: Roughly when did you stop scubadiving?

BRADLEY: Probably by the year 2000, I was pretty much done. 

CRAWFORD: Did windsurfing pretty much decline through that time period as well?

BRADLEY: It tapered off, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Any new coastal activities, in terms of boating or fishing or anything else? 

BRADLEY: In the early 1990s I became kind of interested in ambergris, and trying to find it. So then, I spread my wings a wee bit in terms of my beachcombing 

CRAWFORD: Spread your wings, geographically? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: How did you expand you range?

BRADLEY: All over. 

CRAWFORD: All over South Island?

BRADLEY: Definitely a lot of Southland, and a fair chunk of South Island, and fair chunk of North Island. 

CRAWFORD: Was this something that you were doing, collecting for collecting sake? Or was this turning into a semi-commercial thing?

BRADLEY: I was trying to make some money. But I was always thinking "Don’t give up your day job to look round for things."

CRAWFORD: Alright. Let’s focus on your Stewart Island time. The very first time you went to Mason Bay was mid-90s? 

BRADLEY: November 1993. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s use that as a natural break point, because you said there were something like 70 trips to Mason Bay?

BRADLEY: Yep, easy. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a heck of a lot of trips to Stewart Island. To one particular bay? Or were those trips including jaunts to other parts of the island as well? 

BRADLEY: It generally just to Mason Bay, but sometimes we’d go to Doughboy. Or I’d go to Doughboy. Or sometimes Doughboy and then walk up the coast. 

CRAWFORD: These were weeklong trips - that kind of thing?

BRADLEY: Up to a week. 

CRAWFORD: I’m presuming you were staying in huts? Or were you camping? 

BRADLEY: Mainly in huts, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When you were there for those many trips, what were your main activities? Mostly beachcombing, or were you spending time in the water?

BRADLEY: Mainly beachcombing, and exploring. Just poking around.

CRAWFORD: Were you interacting with other people that were doing things along the coastline? Islanders, Pāua divers or whomever else?

BRADLEY: We didn’t see too many Pāua divers. Only saw Pāua divers down there once. And see the odd fishing boat, but not too many. Not too much interaction with them, but there’s quite a few trampers that you’d interact with. 

CRAWFORD: I’m gathering, most of those people would have been there less frequently than you? At least after your first five or ten trips? 

BRADLEY: Probably. But I’d say there’s other people around that had been down there as much, if not more than I had been. Just last year, a guy told me he saw a Whale jump out of the water in Doughboy.

CRAWFORD: What kind of Whale? 

BRADLEY: I wondered that too. I thought maybe a Humpback, because it jumped out of the water. He told me, and I've got no reason to disbelieve him. In fact, he mentioned another person that saw it as well. One time when we flew down there, we saw a Southern Right Whale in close to shore near East Ruggedy.

CRAWFORD: Interesting that you should mention that, because very recently there was a Whale stranding - a massive Whale stranding - in Doughboy. It wasn’t the first one either. 

BRADLEY: No, no. I’ve been down there soon after a Whale stranding. One time we had to change our plans, because the researchers that had come along after a Whale stranding were wanting to stay in the hut that we were wanting to stay in. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, for the period that you made the Stewart Island trips, they would have been on average maybe two or three times a year?

BRADLEY: Yeah. Definitely a solid two or three. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That describes your time in and around New Zealand coastal waters. Is there something else important that we haven’t discussed in terms of activity and/or location?

BRADLEY: That’s pretty much me. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: In terms of describing the contribution of Māori culture and knowledge to your understanding of New Zealand coastal systems, particularly marine systems, would you rank it as being very low, low, medium, high or very high? 

BRADLEY: To be honest, I think it’s fairly low. I know a lot of is made of Māori knowledge of certain fisheries and so forth. I’m sure they know heaps about the Muttonbirds, but I don’t know much about Muttonbirds - apart from eating them. I think they’ve got a set of knowledge, but there’s all these other environmental things that come into it, that we’re only starting to learn about in recent years. There’s a whole other Science out there that Māori never had access to. I'm sure if they their own knowledge, and mixed that with the Science, they’d be even brighter. You would have more knowledge. 

CRAWFORD: I think that’s an answer to a different question. For right now, the question is about contribution of Māori culture and knowledge to what you know about New Zealand coastal ecology. Where would you rank that? 

BRADLEY: It’s fairly low. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Similarly, in terms of contribution of Science to your knowledge - where would you put that? 

BRADLEY: Probably high.  

CRAWFORD: Ok. You’ve already spoken about the degree that you got at University of Otago, in surveying, I mean, that’s a Science-based degree. It’s not 'natural science' in the same way that an ecologist would think of, but it’s still part of the broader Western Science knowledge system. 

BRADLEY: Oh, yeah. Well, it was a BSc, so I always say “I must be a scientist, because here I am." It’s measurement science at the very least, 

CRAWFORD: What would you see as being the major contributions from Science to your understanding of New Zealand coastal ecology? 

BRADLEY: Oh, things like salinity, currents ...

CRAWFORD: Oceanography? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. Water quality, and variability, and the mixing of freshwater and its effect on seawater.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen a White Pointer in the wild?

BRADLEY: No. 

CRAWFORD: What was the first time that you remember hearing about White Pointers?

BRADLEY: Probably newspaper reports of people being killed by them. The ones in Dunedin, they stand out a wee bit, because it’s close to home.

CRAWFORD: Where were you, at the time of those attacks?

BRADLEY: I’d probably be living here, I would think. 

CRAWFORD: Here in Invercargill, reading about the St. Clair, St Kilda, Aramoana attacks? 

BRADLEY: But I also remember a wee bit of talk about Sharks and Shark attacks. Of course, we were Floundering all the time at Oreti Beach. Nobody’s been killed by a White Shark on Oreti Beach. There's the odd person that's been bitten by a Shark on Oreti Beach, but nobody’s ever said that it’s a White Shark. That's always been a curiosity for me - the fact that there’s no White Sharks reported off Oreti Beach, while there are quite a few White Sharks around Halfway Rocks, which is not that far away from Oreti Beach. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s put a placeholder there, and get back to the first time you recall White Pointers showing up on your radar screen. The media reports from the Dunedin region, associated with the attacks there. But you’ve also got a general sense of Sharks around Oreti Beach, like when you’re doing your Floundering?

BRADLEY: Yes, an awareness. There’s awareness of the possibility. 

CRAWFORD: Right. But what’s the depth of water that you’re in, when you're Floundering?

BRADLEY: A couple of metres max, really. 

CRAWFORD: Is one end of the seine on a boat, and the other is anchored to the beach?

BRADLEY: There’s a deep end and shallow end, so you’re both in the water. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, but it’s chestwader deep, right?

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: A metre, metre and a half - that type of thing?

BRADLEY: Deep end guy is up around the chest, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, but still potentially at a depth where - depending on the size of the Shark, or the nature of the interaction - you’re still potentially at risk?

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Are there other species of Sharks that are known in that area where you spend so much time, at Oreti Beach? 

BRADLEY: Well, we used to catch heaps of we called Sand Sharks or Dogfish.

CRAWFORD: You had mentioned that you caught Dogfish in your nets. And that you sold them?

CRAWFORD: What about any other species of Shark?

BRADLEY: I wasn’t even that aware of all the different Shark species to be honest. Like Sevengillers. I never even become aware of Sevengillers until 20-odd years ago, really. I now understand that they’re pretty common. And there’s heaps of other Sharks out there that are pretty common.

CRAWFORD: But your direct knowledge, with regards to your Floundering, that was with Dogfish? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s go back to the old-timers. Given the fact that it wasn’t until late-60s, early-70s when White Pointers showed up on your radar screen, because of the attacks ... was there anything that the old-timers in this region, around Invercargill or Oreti Beach, said at all about White Pointers prior to the Dunedin attacks? 

BRADLEY: Not when I was young, anyway. 

CRAWFORD: What do you remember hearing, perhaps when you were a little bit older?

BRADLEY: Well I have heard, somewhere along the line, people mention Sharks in the discharge, or the immediate area of the discharge, at the Ocean Beach freezerworks. 

CRAWFORD: Where is that?

BRADLEY: Ocean Beach is down here on the Bluff Peninsula. It’s pretty much in the narrow little bit here. And they used to discharge into this bay here. 

CRAWFORD: That’s the freezer works, when you drive into town, that’s now closed down? 

BRADLEY: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Just at the corner?

BRADLEY: Yeah, near the railway line crossing. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know when that freezerworks started up?

BRADLEY: No, not off hand. 

CRAWFORD: Was it always there, when you were a young man? 

BRADLEY: When I was a kid, the Ocean Beach freezerworks was just part of the landscape.

CRAWFORD: And it ran until when? 

BRADLEY: I’d say about late-80s

CRAWFORD: Why did it close down?

BRADLEY: Just sort of rationalization of the freezing industry, I think. 

CRAWFORD: Market forces?

BRADLEY: Yeah, I think so. 

CRAWFORD: As a freezerworks, what kind of effluent did it discharge? 

BRADLEY: Probably processing lamb and mutton, mainly. I guess a certain amount of beef. I don’t think there was too much treatment of the effluent. I have heard stories, and I might even recall seeing a photograph of that bay looking pretty red. I seem to recall back in the early Catchment Board days, seeing a photograph of that bay with a visible discharge plume in it. 

CRAWFORD: That would have been the blood and offal of the terrestrial mammals that were being processed at the freezerworks? And just to be clear, when you say ‘discharged into the bay,’ you mean the Foveaux Strait side of the Bluff isthmus at Ocean Beach? 

BRADLEY: Yeah, definitely. 

CRAWFORD: I’m interested to know if there were any other types of similar kind of organic discharges in this region? Any other types of industrial facilities or municipalities that would have been discharging organic waste into coastal waters of Foveaux Strait? 

BRADLEY: I can’t really think of any. All the other freezerworks discharged into rivers, really. And flow out the river. There was probably a degree of treatment, I would imagine. 

CRAWFORD: If there were people using water from downriver? 

BRADLEY: Yeah, definitely. But then, there’d be a few sewage discharges that wouldn’t have been that fresh. I’m not too sure about Bluff itself - where it used to discharge it’s sewage. But it probably wasn’t terribly well-treated at one stage of the game.

CRAWFORD: Where is the sewage discharge now for Bluff? Do you know? 

BRADLEY: I’m not sure, actually. Oh, yeah - it’s out the back here. Out the back of the hill. 

CRAWFORD: And there’s come type of primary, secondary treatment of that municipal sewage? 

BRADLEY: Definitely primary. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What other municipality discharges would there be into Foveaux Strait? 

BRADLEY: Invercargill used to discharge its sewage into the estuary here. 

CRAWFORD: Treated or untreated? 

BRADLEY: Way back, it wouldn’t have been treated very well. But these days it goes through primary and secondary treatment. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about Riverton? 

BRADLEY: Riverton, they discharge out the back of Howells Point here. 

CRAWFORD: And what type of treatment? 

BRADLEY: It’s probably got at least primary these days, perhaps more. I seem to recall it being upgraded around mid-80s, early-90s. 

CRAWFORD: And other sites of organic effluent? What about Stewart Island?

BRADLEY: They’ve got land-based discharge now, but that’s only happened since about the 1990s. What it was before that, I’m not too sure. There were two fish factories - I’m not too sure whether they’re both still going. 

CRAWFORD: You mean fish-processing plants? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. One in Horseshoe Bay, and one in Halfmoon Bay.

CRAWFORD: And what about Big Glory Bay?

BRADLEY: Big Glory Bay - where they’ve got the salmon farm. And lots of mussel farms. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know anything about effluent management for those Salmon farms? 

BRADLEY: Well, I think they try to minimize the amount of wasted food. And a certain amount of movement, moving the Salmon farms around. There has been discussion about the effects of the Salmon farms on the benthic fauna. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s bring this back. My question was about the old-timers, specifically if they had said anything about Sharks in the region. Were there any connections that the old-timers had made? 

BRADLEY: Just the comment about the Sharks being seen in the effluent. And I can’t even remember who said it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was at Ocean Beach. Was that kind of comment also made at other locations? 

BRADLEY: Not that I’m aware of. The only other thing I’d say about Sharks, is that I’ve always been sort of vaguely aware of the Halfway Rocks area, off Oreti Beach. It being a bit of a hotspot for White Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: That’s something that has come to you as common knowledge? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Was it the old-timers or your contemporaries that you got that sense from?

BRADLEY: I’m not too sure how I got to know that. But subsequent to hearing that, I have seen a newspaper report of a guy, Brian Telford, who caught a White Shark out there. He caught it and brought it back into the estuary here. Right back into about here - Sandy Point. This was probably about early-70s. It was a big Shark, that was in the photo.

CRAWFORD: So that’s a White Pointer from around Halfway Rocks, a kilometre from Oreti Beach. And you figure this was the early-70s?

BRADLEY: Yeah. I think that’s the region where he caught it. Probably a bit more than a kilometre - it’d be two or three kilometres. 

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers ever have knowledge that was passed down from the previous generations, about any place in the Foveaux Strait region or Stewart Island - that was just known to be ‘sharky’ for one reason or another?

BRADLEY: I don’t recall hearing anything. That’s one thing I’ve often wondered about the Edwards Island area. I’ve learnt about it, recently and I thought “I wonder if Sharks were always there?”

CRAWFORD: Right. So, I’m guessing that prior to hearing recently, you hadn’t heard any stories from the Stewart Island region back in the day?

BRADLEY: No, I hadn’t heard any stories. I don’t know heaps of old-timers. I can think of various fishermen around, but no.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Moving on from the old-timers, let’s talk now about your contemporaries. Any stories that you’ve heard, during your own life, but not your own lived experiences - about any other White Pointer experiences generally in this region? Other than your Brother’s incident?

BRADLEY: Only the one I mentioned - the guy catching one out at Halfway Rocks. And the reason that I learned about that was. his son used to work at the regional council office for a while, and he mentioned it. I think he must have mentioned the Southern Times article, and then I saw it. I have actually been fishing out there a couple of times, catching Cod. 

CRAWFORD: Linefishing? At Halfway Rocks?

BRADLEY: Yeah. And you do have a wee bit of an issue with Sharks attacking the Cod as it comes up. But I would never say it was a White Shark. 

CRAWFORD: Would it been ‘Sharks’ undefined, or ‘Sharks’ of a different kind? 

BRADLEY: I suspect Sharks of a different kind. Because you’d see the odd one, and they weren’t huge. 

CRAWFORD: What about the time that you spent up Doubtful Sound, Fiordland generally? Did you ever hear about any Shark observations up there? 

BRADLEY: I seem to recall I talked to somebody who’s caught a Sevengiller in the Sound somewhere, but that’s about it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about up Dunedin way? For the time that you spent up there?

BRADLEY: No, I never really went swimming up there. 

CRAWFORD: But never heard of any other Shark encounters? Other than the three attacks?

BRADLEY: No. And I don’t even know the details of those three events particularly well. 

CRAWFORD: That’s fine. What about Stewart Island? 

BRADLEY: The odd mention. There was a story ... you’ll hear about it from Stewart islanders, about somebody in a kayak or a dinghy in Paterson Inlet. Having a shark pop out of the water, and land on the boat. This is like two years ago. It was reported in the Stewart Island News, which is quite a good wee rag.

CRAWFORD: And is that something you read on a regular basis?

BRADLEY: Yeah, fairly regular. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Anything else that you can think of, regarding Sharks in this region? We have got a Surf Life Saving Club that operates out of Oreti Beach. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, you do. 

BRADLEY: There used to be the odd thing. A plane would fly along the beach, and they’d see a Shark, and there’d be something come over the radio. A Shark warning put out or something. In fact, when I first started doing the bloody coastal plan, one of the issues that we had to deal with was - who’s responsible for certain activities. And one of the things that we clearly established was, it was the police that were responsible for issuing Shark warnings. And the police actually had an SOP sort of thing, standard operating procedure for Shark warnings. And they produced that. This was back early- 90s, so it would have gone back a few years, I would imagine. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. You’ve opened up and new and very interesting line of question, then. If the police were responsible, and had an SOP with regards to Shark warnings - how did they know if and when there was a Shark in order to respond to? Was it simply somebody on shore saw a Shark? Or were there other types of monitoring efforts at play? 

BRADLEY: It was probably more likely a sort of random report from a pilot that might have been flying over the beach. 

CRAWFORD: Ah, ok. So, an incidental report. But I’m getting the impression, they’d probably respond to any report. If a boater saw a Shark and called it in, or something like that. But Invercargill has an airport, planes are going over one way or another, at different times. If a pilot saw a Shark in nearshore waters of Oreti Beach, perhaps they would radio it in. Perhaps it would ultimately find its way to the police, and then it was the police's responsibility to issue a Shark warning? 

BRADLEY: Shark warnings, they're called. You might even find the Surf Club’s got a Shark type flag. It wouldn’t surprise me. 

CRAWFORD: Are you aware of any aerial reconnaissance or monitoring of Oreti Beach, specifically for Sharks? 

BRADLEY: No structured monitoring, no. I’m not saying there wasn’t, but I’m not aware of it. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know anything else about pilots observing Sharks in any waters in this region? Foveaux Strait, Stewart Island? Southland generally? 

BRADLEY: Not pilots. I’ve seen one Shark from the plane in Mason Bay. 

CRAWFORD: That’s when you were flying in for one of your trips? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. Flying out I think we were that day. I saw it, but I couldn’t tell you what type of Shark it was. 

CRAWFORD: No. But it was reasonably clear that it was a Shark?

BRADLEY: Yeah. When they fly to ... well see, it’s the same company now, it flies to Oban or Ryan’s Creek.

CRAWFORD: Is that Stewart island Air?

BRADLEY: Stewart Island Flights, yeah. Well they fly about there, that’s their flight path. 

CRAWFORD: Describe in words, for the audio transcript.

BRADLEY: Ok. They fly from Invercargill airport, across the estuary, more or less down the Mokomoko Inlet, crossing a bit west of Ocean Beach, heading pretty much directly for Ryan’s Creek airstrip at Oban.

CRAWFORD: So, just west of the Northern Titi Islands. And then landing at the airstrip?

BRADLEY: Yeah, they probably tend to fly over the head of Horseshoe Bay. That’s the line. But when they fly to the west side of Stewart Island, and they do quite a few beach flights into the various beaches on the west side of Stewart Island, plus to Codfish Island, they fly pretty much straight across to Oreti Beach and Halfway Rocks, and then they go over Hananui/Mount Anglem, or else they’ll go around the coast on the west side of the island. Yeah, there’s a couple of pilots with Stewart Island Flights who have been doing that, especially the beach flights, for 20 years. 

CRAWFORD: Do you recall the name of some of the pilots who have that kind of extended experience? 

BRADLEY: Well, there’s Bill Moffat and Raymond Hector. They’re both the owners of Stewart Island Flights. They're based in Invercargill. And they’ll know other pilots who flew down that way, long before they ever started flying down there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. I think you can see my interest in this, especially with the time series. Because if there’s been a change in distribution or abundance in Shark silhouettes ... I mean, pilots are particularly keen observers, they’re have a unique perspective, and the extent that they‘ve been doing it for 20 or 30 years - they would have seen things in different way from everybody else. 

CRAWFORD: Let’s talk about other people’s experience, starting with the old-timers. In the time you spent on Stewart Island, did you ever hear what old-timers said about distribution and abundance of White Pointers? 

BRADLEY: A friend of mine who is a retired fisherman. 

CRAWFORD: So, he’s a contemporary - but old enough to be the previous generation? 

BRADLEY: Yeah, he’s ten years older than me. He mentioned spearing Flounders or something, down here at Mason Bay one time ...

CRAWFORD: Spearing as in spearfishing? Like, freediving with a spear? 

BRADLEY: I’m not too sure how they speared them. But I think he mentioned something about knowing what he knows now about Sharks, and that he wouldn’t have been so keen to have done it. Something like that, but I’m pretty fuzzy on it. 

CRAWFORD: That’s fine. In terms of contemporaries, things that you’ve heard during your lifetime, wasn’t your direct experience - but things that you heard had happened to other people. Did you ever hear about any White Pointer-Human interactions around Rakiura?

BRADLEY: I don’t think so. 

CRAWFORD: That's fine. The time that you spent at Mason Bay and Doughboy. Did you ever hear of anybody seeing White Pointers in those two bays?

BRADLEY: No.

CRAWFORD: The time that you spent in those regions, that was almost entirely shore-based?

BRADLEY: Correct. 

CRAWFORD: Did you know of anybody who spent a significant amount of time on the water in those two bays? Or up around Codfish, or down further south? 

BRADLEY: Not really, no.

CRAWFORD: Have you heard else anything regarding the reasons why White Pointers are in this region - Foveaux Strait, Stewart Island? What is it about this region that the White Pointers are dependent on or interested in? Do you have any sense of that? 

BRADLEY: Well that’s a good question. That’s something that was going through my own mind. I mentioned before that I emailed Clinton Duffy. 

CRAWFORD: Tell me the story behind that. What triggered the communication?

BRADLEY: I was doing some stuff, background work for the Oil Spill Response Plan, and part of that plan categorizes different parts of the Southland coast and the different environmental values about that part of the coast. Part of the plan talked about the Solander Islands. which are not on this map, but out here. I think it’s the largest Fur Seal rookery in New Zealand. And I thought "Ah. Aren't Fur Seals and bloody White Sharks - don’t they go hand in hand?" So, that’s why I sent the emails to Clinton Duffy, about what they know about White Sharks around Solander Islands, because I was curious. And he sent me a reply, and I don’t think they knew much at all. I could probably find that email and send it to you. 

CRAWFORD: No, that’s ok. But he responded to you ...

BRADLEY: Yeah. And I had a few other questions about the distribution of the tags, because I knew all this White Shark tagging was going on. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. How did you know about the tagging? 

BRADLEY: From different people I’d associated with, or read in the paper, or whatever. I knew there was pinging, but I probably didn't quite know all the differences between all the different types of tags. Plus, I'd heard that a Shark tag had been found on Oreti Beach, and that was a beach-combing interest. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know what type of tag it was? The one found on Oreti Beach?

BRADLEY: No, I don’t.

CRAWFORD: Did Clinton know about the that tag? 

BRADLEY: I don’t think that I specifically asked him about that. But I was “Wish it had been me that found it.” 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What did Clinton tell you about the tagging programs in general? What do you remember about that?

BRADLEY: Don’t know if we talked too much about tagging programs. More about the fact that some of the tagged Sharks had been recorded as having circumnavigated Stewart Island. I think I might have been asking about the period that they were around, because I kept thinking to myself “Ah, these bloody moaning Pāua divers. Sharks aren’t there all the time, why can’t they just go and get the Pāua when the Sharks aren’t there?” That’s what I was thinking.

CRAWFORD: And what do you remember about Clinton’s response? Specifically, with regards to when the Sharks are around?

BRADLEY: They’re around from about December to ... well, it’s quite late in the year. June or July or something like that.

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

BRADLEY: So, then I thought that there was a fairly big period of time when they’re not there. Which I had never really fully appreciated. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember anything else? 

BRADLEY: Something about some of the Sharks ... how far they actually went away from New Zealand. 

CRAWFORD: What do you remember about that?

BRADLEY: They went a long way. Australia? I think some of them go to Australia. Not too sure about where some of the others might have gone. 

CRAWFORD: That’s alright. So, when you think about the general ecological basis for these White Pointers being in and around Foveaux Strait and Stewart Island, it comes back to the question - why? What do you think is the reason why these Sharks are here? Why they come here at particular times in their life cycle?

BRADLEY: Well, I don’t really know. But we've got all the oysters in Foveaux Strait, and there's a good current. there’s cold water coming up the south of Stewart island, and that converges with the warm stuff coming up from Fiordland. That in itself must lead to a certain amount of productivity. 

CRAWFORD: The regions where these currents converge, do you think that they could be ecological hotspots? For productivity? 

BRADLEY: I think they probably are. I think that’s one of the reasons we’ve got Muttonbirds, you know?

CRAWFORD: Coming in on those huge transglobal migrations?

BRADLEY: Yeah. And then they nest here. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think the Muttonbirds are nesting specifically on those islands off Stewart Island?

BRADLEY: Because generally, there’s quite a bit of food available. 

CRAWFORD: Food meaning what? 

BRADLEY: Small fish. But Muttonbird seasons vary like nothing else. They have good seasons, bad seasons. Extremely variable. And I think the currents and everything associated vary quite a bit too.

CRAWFORD: What about the Seals? Do you think the Seals are here for that productivity? Or do you think that they’re perhaps here more for the rookery habitat? But let's go back one step. When you think about major Seal colonies in the region, along the Southland coastline - where to are Seals found in high abundance?

BRADLEY: Just west of Ocean Beach Bay. There's quite a few Seals around there, generally. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, where else do you know. Anyplace up here by Riverton or further up? And if you don’t know it’s fine. 

BRADLEY: I’m not familiar with Seals. I don’t really think Seals when I think this bit of coastline. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about Ruapuke or Stewart island?

BRADLEY: Not sure really, as far as Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: What about that section of Stewart Island that you are familiar with - say from Doughboy to Mason Bay? 

BRADLEY: Don’t see many Seals on it. 

CRAWFORD: Those are mostly sandy beaches? 

BRADLEY: Yeah. I know down here there’s a heap of Sea Lions. 

CRAWFORD: Hooker Sea Lions, on the very south end of the island. 

BRADLEY: Especially around Pegasus there. And when you get round east of Bluff you start getting quite a bit of Sea Lions. And I've seen Seals in the water here.

CRAWFORD: Have you heard of anybody that has seen Shark-Seal interactions? Shark attacks on Seals, or anything like that?

BRADLEY: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: Wounded Seals, carcasses or something like that? 

BRADLEY: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: What about Shark-Sea Lion interactions? 

BRADLEY: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: And while we’re on the topic, have you seen or heard of any Orcas in this region? 

BRADLEY: I think some come into Bluff Harbour.

CRAWFORD: Infrequently? 

BRADLEY: Yeah, I think so. 

CRAWFORD: What about Dolphins?

BRADLEY: Oh, yeah. I’ve seen quite a few Dolphins from time to time. 

CRAWFORD: Where do you see Dolphins, when you see them. 

BRADLEY: The most Dolphins I ever saw was in this estuary. 

CRAWFORD: Which estuary?

BRADLEY: This New River Estuary. There was bloody hundreds. You look down the estuary, and they were leaping out of the water. You look up the estuary, and they were leaping out of the water. 

CRAWFORD: What were they doing? 

BRADLEY: I don’t know. I was out there in my little 12-foot dinghy. Feeling very small, when they’re jumping out of the water right beside you. Got your wife and two or three kids on board. I know they see Dolphins off Riverton quite a bit. I see some things, but other people must have seen a shitload more than I've seen. 

CRAWFORD: No, no - that’s fine. That’s the purpose of having fifty different interviews; you get fifty different pairs of eyes. Right? 

BRADLEY: Yeah.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

BRADLEY: One time I was out there, we were actually diving out there. 

CRAWFORD: You were scubadiving on Halfway Rocks?

BRADLEY: Well, we actually dived on the wee rock on the Riverton side of Halfway Rocks.

CRAWFORD: Let’s put a time on this. You said 1993 was when you started diving? 

BRADLEY: Yeah it was early-90s. My Brother actually did the dive. He just dived by himself. And when he was down there, he had an encounter with a White Shark. It came in to him. 

CRAWFORD: This was your Brother scubadiving?

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when? Mid-90s?

BRADLEY: Yeah, in my early diving days. 

CRAWFORD: What season, roughly?

BRADLEY: It was Boxing Day, December 26.  

CRAWFORD: Tell me about the encounter. 

BRADLEY: Well it come in to him three times. 

CRAWFORD: What does that mean? 'Come in to him'?

BRADLEY: Well, he was down there, diving at a depth of 30 feet or less. He felt the Shark was really big - maybe four metres long. He remembers the big white belly. As the Shark swam towards him, he thought the distance from fin tip to fin tip was wider than his arm span - easily 1.5 metres. The first time he saw it, it swam straight towards him.  He lay back, and the Shark swam over the top of him.  He gave it a poke in the belly with his hook as it did so. He recalls thinking about the sex of the fish as it swam over him. He was on the bottom of the sea floor. The Shark did a circle, and swam back towards him at about eye level. He could see it the whole time it did the circle. He thinks that the visibility probably wasn’t much more than 30 feet. As it came in the second time, he blew as many bubbles as he could, without taking the regulator out of his mouth.  The Shark veered away about a metre away from him. He remembers the eye, the teeth and what he called the ‘blackheads’ on its nose.  He also remembers the ragged line between the white belly and the grey upper parts. Once the Shark veered away, it did another circle and came in again. Again, he could see it the whole time. The third approach was more or less a repeat of the second. This time though, it veered away and disappeared. Then he came to the surface, climbed onto the rock, there was one Seal on the rock, and we bloody near had to put the boat on the rock to get him in, because he was a bit worried. [chuckles] Yeah, that’s my Shark story. 

CRAWFORD: So. You were on the boat …

BRADLEY: With another guy. 

CRAWFORD: Was your Brother the only one in the water?

BRADLEY: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What was he doing down there?

BRADLEY: Looking for Crayfish. 

CRAWFORD: Was he just looking? Or did he have any Crayfish in a bag or something? 

BRADLEY: Just looking, I think. I don’t recall him having anything.

CRAWFORD: But he was down there by himself. You were all Crayfishing? 

BRADLEY: I was probably doing a wee bit of fishing as well, but not at that time. 

CRAWFORD: And all of this happened right there directly below you. You and your mate didn’t see anything?

BRADLEY: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]. Clearly this wasn’t a Level 1. Based on your description, this White Pointer came back twice. 

BRADLEY: It’s much nearer a Level 4, from what I understand 

CRAWFORD: Did your Brother give you any indication that there was a tension to this animal, that it was moving quickly, or arching its body, or anything like that? Anything that would indicate that it was either aggressive or hunting?

BRADLEY: He said that the Shark always swam slowly, and never looked aggressive.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I think that this is one of those grey zone incidences. But it’s consistent with what the people have said with regards to a Level 3 Interest. It’s quite possible that your Brother was dealing with a White Pointer with a high degree of curiosity. 

BRADLEY: Yeah. Persistently curious. And close.

CRAWFORD: Yeah. Proximity means a lot. 

BRADLEY: My brother also related another Shark encounter, this time when he was in a boat just south of Omaui Island, which is on the southern side of the New River Estuary at the south end of Oreti Beach.  He said that this Shark swam on its side alongside the boat, apparently looking at them. As it swam past, one of the guys on board hit it with the end of a paddle. They moved the boat to get away from the Shark, and it followed them – they could see the fin sticking out of the water. He was quite sure this was a Great White Shark as well.

Copyright © 2019 Dallas Bradley and Steve Crawford