Colin Topi

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: What year were you born, Colin?

C. TOPI: 1950. 

CRAWFORD: Where?

C. TOPI: Invercargill. 

CRAWFORD: What’s your first recollection of spending time around or on the water?

C. TOPI: Probably about seven. 

CRAWFORD: Where were you?

C. TOPI: Right here. 

CRAWFORD: Stewart Island? 

C. TOPI: Halfmoon Bay.

CRAWFORD: Where did you grow up?

C. TOPI: My family lived over here until I was five. And then we moved to Bluff, so I got to go to school over there. 

CRAWFORD: At the age of seven, when your family spent time in Halfmoon Bay - was it during holidays, things like that? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, holiday time. Me and me Brother, and me Dad. 

CRAWFORD: When you were here with your Dad, was it just a couple of boys kicking around? Or were you helping him with work?

C. TOPI: No, just a couple of boys kicking around. 

CRAWFORD: And it was Halfmoon Bay, as opposed to Horseshoe Bay?

C. TOPI: Halfmoon bay. My Dad went to the pub, and me and me Brother got the paint out ... the number of the boat that he was running at the time was number 7. So, we painted number 7 on the dinghy we were playing in. [laughs] And it was upside down. 

CRAWFORD: [laughs] Of course. What’s your Brother’s name?

C. TOPI: Warren. 

CRAWFORD: Still around?

C. TOPI: No, got killed. 

CRAWFORD: But back then, it was you and Warren and your upside-down 7 dinghy. Mostly in Halfmoon Bay?

C. TOPI: Yeah. Were only here for about four or five days when we’d come here, from what I can remember. 

CRAWFORD: In the dinghy, rowing around. Were you doing any fishing?

C. TOPI: We probably were doing a wee bit of fishing, yeah. And then we’d run up to Paterson Inlet, you know. Couple of days up there. 

CRAWFORD: The three of you?

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you come every year?

C. TOPI: When we grew older, we used to come back every Christmas-time, around Paterson Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: How long would you spend over there?

C. TOPI: We’d spend about ten days at a time. Just for the holidays. 

CRAWFORD: Did you have crib over there?

C. TOPI: No, we stayed on the boat. 

CRAWFORD: How many years did those family trips go for?

C. TOPI: I came over as a teenager. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Through this time, you were still living in Bluff? 

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing that you would have spent time on and around the water over there too?

C. TOPI: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Did you have a dinghy back in Bluff? In the harbour?

C. TOPI: Yeah. We used to only go out when Dad was back from fishing. We used to steal his dinghy, and go for a row around the harbour. 

CRAWFORD: You and your Brother in Bluff - did you do any fishing, or mostly rowing around in the dinghy?

C. TOPI: Mostly in the dinghy, and camping out. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever go outside of the harbour?

C. TOPI: Not in the dinghy. Only with family.

CRAWFORD: How long would that have gone on like that - 

maybe till your mid-teen years?

C. TOPI: Pretty young - 14, 15.

CRAWFORD: What happened then? What changed?

C. TOPI: Ah, you just don’t go with Dads and Mums when you’re that age.

CRAWFORD: You don’t need adult supervision anymore?

C. TOPI: No, no. 

CRAWFORD: What sort of things did you do around the water, when you were on your own?

C. TOPI: Well, we used to go to Ruapuke all the time. You know Ruapuke Island? 

CRAWFORD: Yes. 

C. TOPI: We used to go over there. 

CRAWFORD: Did you have your own boat, or access to a boat?

C. TOPI: No. Me Dad used to drop us off over there. 

CRAWFORD: While he was out fishing? 

C. TOPI: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When your Dad dropped you guys off on the island, did you have family there?

C. TOPI: Yeah, I had an Uncle staying there. 

CRAWFORD: And you’d go sometimes just for the day? Sometimes longer?

C. TOPI: Sometimes it could be as long as a month.

CRAWFORD: When you were there, did you have access to a vessel?

CC. TOPI: Me Uncle had a boat, but we never used it much. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of boat did your Dad have? 

C. TOPI: He had quite a few boats. He had a steel boat, when I left school at 15 and went fishing with him. But when I wasn’t working, he’d drop us off on the island and then go back to Bluff. He’d take the boat back to Bluff, and we’d stay on the island. 

CRAWFORD: And how big was that boat?

C. TOPI: 40-45 foot. 

CRAWFORD: Was it geared up for Crayfish and Cod?

C. TOPI: That’s right. Crayfish and Cod. 

CRAWFORD: Were you handlining for Cod, or potting?

C. TOPI: Potting.

CRAWFORD: Even back in that day, your Dad was Codpotting?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: At the age of 15, you were actually helping him out as a mate - it was your job?

C. TOPI: Yeah, I was his [wiffer??].

CRAWFORD: That was a two-man operation?

C. TOPI: Three. There used to be three of us on the boat. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In a regional sense, where was your Dad Crayfishing and Codpotting?

C. TOPI: Codpotting all around Stewart Island. And around Ruapuke too. That was his main area.

CRAWFORD: What about Crayfishing?

C. TOPI: Crayfishing was mostly around Ruapuke, and what we call [Aguga Centre??] - up along here. 

CRAWFORD: On the way over to Fiordland?

C. TOPI: Up and around Fiordland, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did he ever go fishing up into Fiordland?

C. TOPI: No. Just from Puysegur Point south. 

CRAWFORD: What was the Crayfish season for him?

C. TOPI: We used to start June-July, along what we call Big River. And then we’d take our Craypots to Ruapuke. August to December. And then sometimes we’d move them back up. 

CRAWFORD: The rest of the year, you were Codpotting?

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever Codpot in and amongst the Titi Islands down here?

C. TOPI: Yes, I did. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever get down to the Traps? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. The Traps were one of our main places. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. That was your Dad’s regular run? And you fishing with him, from when you were 15?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: As a teenager back in Bluff, did you ever spend any time around Oreti Beach, or any of the shoreline to the west of Bluff?

C. TOPI: No, not really. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of natural break points, when did you get access to a vessel that you could go wherever you wanted to? When did you get your first boat?

C. TOPI: A little boat called the Panther.

CRAWFORD: A commercial boat? 

C. TOPI: Yes. Although it was only 32-foot. 

CRAWFORD: When did you buy it? 

C. TOPI: About 40 years ago.

CRAWFORD: Roughly how old were you then?

C. TOPI: 21, 22. 

CRAWFORD: What was it rigged for? Craypotting, Codpotting like your Dad's?

C. TOPI: Crayfish, mostly. When the Crayfish season finished, I’d go Oystering. March to August, six months Oystering. And then I’d go to Ruapuke and Crayfish there. 

CRAWFORD: Crayfishing was mostly at Ruapuke? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Where were your Oyster grounds? 

C. TOPI: Foveaux Strait. 

CRAWFORD: You’re the first Oysterman I’ve interviewed. Please describe to me how that’s done. What kind of gear, and how do you use it? 

C. TOPI: Well, they’ve got these big steel dredges. You use two. And there’s two beams poking out one side, and you've got a [bench??]. The Skipper drops the dredges over - you tow for about 20 minutes to three-quarters of an hour. And then he brings them up, and you open the bottoms up, and all the stuff falls out on the [benches??], and you scrape the rubbish over the side. 

CRAWFORD: What type of bottom, mostly? 

C. TOPI: Most likely gravel and sand. 

CRAWFORD: Is it the type of thing that you can Oyster dredge, and you come back in a couple of year after it re-seeds?

C. TOPI: Yeah. Them days it was real good. 

CRAWFORD: I would imagine there probably wasn’t that much pressure back then?

C. TOPI: No, it was a lot of pressure, because they had 23 Oyster boats then. 

CRAWFORD: Holy crap. 

C. TOPI: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Just out of Bluff?

C. TOPI: Just out of Bluff. It was only Bluff where the Oyster boats worked out of. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think at that point, the Oystering was having a significant effect on the population?

C. TOPI: It probably was, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, that was early 1970s.

C. TOPI: Yeah.

 CRAWFORD: On that boat you were Oystering and Crayfishing? 

C. TOPI: No, just Oystering, straight up. And then I'd go on my little boat. I was employed from a company for work on this big boat for six months - and then I'd take my little boat and Crayfish. 

CRAWFORD: How many years did that run, that pattern? Five years, ten years?

C. TOPI: I done it for seven years, but I never had my little boat first. I must have done four years just straight Oystering. And I’d work with me Dad in what we call the off-season - went Crayfishing with me Dad. And then I got me own boat.

CRAWFORD: Mid 1970s? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And when you got your own boat, then you were doing Crayfishing?

C. TOPI: Yeah. Crayfishing Ruapuke and Oystering, for about three years. Then I got this boat. I’ve had this boat for around 37 years. 

CRAWFORD: That would make it about 1980 - in around there? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What’s the name of this vessel? 

C. TOPI: [Awinga III???]. 

CRAWFORD: And its length? 

C. TOPI: 40-foot. 

CRAWFORD: A Cray-Cod operation?

C. TOPI: Yeah. And we used to do a lot of setnetting too. 

CRAWFORD: You did?

C. TOPI: When I bought this one, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly what was the proportion between setnetting and Codpotting and Crayfish? 

C. TOPI: Oh, setnetting was only a minimum. 

CRAWFORD: 10 percent? 

C. TOPI: Probably about that. We had a couple of dinghies, and we would go around to shore, and set our nets. Leave them for the day, and lift them just before dark, then set them for a night’s set. 

CRAWFORD: Was this to get bait for your pots or ...

C. TOPI: No, we were commercial. 

CRAWFORD: What were you setnetting for? 

C. TOPI: We were after Greenbone. 

CRAWFORD: When you put these setnets out, roughly how long were the nets?

C. TOPI: They were probably about 30 metres.

CRAWFORD: Sorry - I was asking for the length of the net. 

C. TOPI: Yeah - 30 metres long. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. So, fairly short then. 

C. TOPI: Yes, they are. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly what kind of depths would you fish them?

C. TOPI: I don’t know - it’s against the rocks. Probably from, say a metre down to ten metres. 

CRAWFORD: And you’d be selling the Greenbone commercially?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Always with your fish going back to Bluff? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, we always unloaded at Bluff.

CRAWFORD: Did you do any of your own processing?

C. TOPI: No. 

CRAWFORD: Straight wholesale?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you have any freezers onboard your boats? 

C. TOPI: The first one I never. I used to have to rely on ... we had to freezer on a barge at Ruapuke. We used to go alongside the barge, and put all our stuff in the freezer that was on the barge. 

CRAWFORD: You’d offload directly from the boat into the freezer on the barge?

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. And then when we come home, we’d take it all out of the barge freezer, put it in a little boat, and bring it home. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a lot of work.

C. TOPI: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: That was for your first boat. Your second boat had a freezer on? 

C. TOPI: This boat has a freezer, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you fish with setnets for anything other than Greenbone?

C. TOPI: We used to setnet for what we call Greyboy Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: Greyboys - are those Rigs? 

C. TOPI: Rigs are a crustacean-eater, and a Greyboy is just like a little White Pointer.

CRAWFORD: Greyboys are fish-eaters?

C. TOPI: Yes, yes. We’d done that for probably two months of the year ... can’t remember what years that would be. Probably about 20 years ago I suppose we were doing that. We’d use long nets, and we’d run a mile out.

CRAWFORD: Roughly what size mesh?

C. TOPI: 7-inch mesh size. We used to go 14 meshes deep. They weren't floating real high, they were just on the bottom - down low.

CRAWFORD: These were bottom sets? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, they were all on bottom. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly, what depth of water would you have been in?

C. TOPI: If we were chasing Rig, we’d be in like three or four fathoms, up to thirty fathoms.

CRAWFORD: Fishing the slopes? Relatively shallow, then offshore and down?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Was that consistent though the end of your fishing career? Did you setnet through that whole period?

C. TOPI: No, we give up netting when the quota system come in. 

CRAWFORD: Which would have been mid-80s?

C. TOPI: Yes, yep.

CRAWFORD: Was that just because the way the quota system was?

C. TOPI: The way the quota system come in, yes. We never had enough quota to actually make it work.

CRAWFORD: To make it viable?

C. TOPI: There was quite a few - there was five or six of us at the time - setnetting for Greyboys and Rigs. Some had quite big quota. So, instead of the government buying their quota, a lot of us got together and said "We’ve only got little bits of quota. So, the government can have our quota back." So, it wasn’t hurting on the boys who had regular-sized quota. Because the government wanted so much quota back - instead of taking it off everybody, we got together and said well we’ve only got a little bit of Shark on ours, so we’ll give it back to the government. 

CRAWFORD: But what did you get in return? 

C. TOPI: We got paid out for it. 

CRAWFORD: It was a buyout?

C. TOPI: It was a buyout, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I think you said that lasted for about five years - the setnetting? 

C. TOPI: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Then the quota system came in, and you went back to straight Codpotting and Crayfishing on this boat?

C. TOPI: That’s it, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Was that pretty much the pattern until you retired?

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: For that period, where were you Codpotting?

C. TOPI: We were Codpotting all around Stewart Island, Ruapuke, and as far down was Waikawa, Slope Point. 

CRAWFORD: Right. And the regions for your Crayfishing?

C. TOPI: Most of the time, around Ruapuke Island. And then we’d go back up to Big River after Christmas, because the fish would stop running around Ruapuke. So, we’d shift all our gear around to Big River. 

CRAWFORD: For about two months?

C. TOPI: About two months, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And that’s pretty much the way it ran, until you retired?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When did you retire?

C. TOPI: Me son took over the boat about ten years ago.

CRAWFORD: You've got three sons - which one took over the boat?

C. TOPI: Well, two of them have got their own boats. The oldest son run this one, he run it till about ten years ago 

CRAWFORD: Which son was that? 

C. TOPI: Jack, the oldest one. He done five on this one, and then he bought his own. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You’ve got two other sons - all three were fisherman?

C. TOPI: Yeah. One fished in Australia, on the Barrier Reef chasing [Coral Trout??].

CRAWFORD: And then the other son?

C. TOPI: The youngest one, Tristan, he bought a boat. He’s had it for like ten years. 

CRAWFORD: Is Tristan still fishing? 

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Out of Bluff?

C. TOPI: No. He fishes out of Milford, most of the time. 

CRAWFORD: In Fiordland - fishing Crayfish?

C. TOPI: Yeah. Then he comes home and does the Codding. 

CRAWFORD: Since retiring from fishing about ten years ago, have you done any chartering or anything like that?

C. TOPI: No. But when the boys wanted time off, I’d take the boat out then. I was like a second skipper. 

CRAWFORD: You spelled them off?

C. TOPI: Yeah. If they wanted a few days break in the fine weather. They used to say "How about taking the boat away for a trip?" So, I would just take one of their boats. 

CRAWFORD: It’s kind of like taking care of the grandkids. 

C. TOPI: That’s right, yes. [Both laugh] 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: In terms of Māori culture and history and knowledge - how much of that has affected your knowledge of these waters and the life that’s in it? 

C. TOPI: Oh, probably in about the middle, I suppose. 

CRAWFORD: About a medium level of influence?

C. TOPI: From me Father. Me Father taught me everything. 

CRAWFORD: Did your father share with you any of the old-time stories? Did he put things into Māori context, like whakapapa?

C. TOPI: No, no. We were brought up Pakeha. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of Science culture and knowledge - how heavily has Science informed your knowledge of what happens in the sea?

C. TOPI: It would probably be up halfway anyway, because we do a lot of Cod surveys.

CRAWFORD: For MPI [Ministry of Primary Industries]? 

C. TOPI: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: So, you’ve actively been involved in collecting scientific data. Do you deal with scientists? You sit down and help them kind of figure things out?

C. TOPI: They come aboard, and we go out and do the fishing.

CRAWFORD: Research fishing? 

C. TOPI: Research fishing, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, you’ve had direct exposure to scientists, and it can't help it but rub off? 

C. TOPI: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’ll put you at medium to high for that one? 

C. TOPI: Yeah.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: When was the first you recall hearing other people talking about White Pointers?

C. TOPI: When I was 15, I started with me Father fishing. And there’s a place at Ruapuke called Caroline. 

CRAWFORD: Caroline Bay?

C. TOPI: Yeah. And the old people said a White Pointer used to come in there all the time. They called it 'Caroline Jack.' It used to turn up every year up there. 

CRAWFORD: So, this isn’t just any White Pointer - it’s one individual White Pointer?

C. TOPI: Well, they presumed it was the same one coming back, because they nicknamed him Caroline Jack. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. I’ve heard of other situations where individual Sharks got named, and in many of those cases the Shark had a nick or a scar or something. Was that the same for Caroline Jack?

C. TOPI: I never seen him. I was told about him. 

CRAWFORD: But you were with your Dad, at the age of 15, fishing in Caroline Bay - and that's when he told you about Caroline Jack?

C. TOPI: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Was this a story that went back in time for many years? That this Shark had been coming back to Caroline Bay?

C. TOPI:  Well, some of the older fishermen said it’s been there for a few years. 

CRAWFORD: And they reckoned that it was the same Shark? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. Because it used to turn up at the same time, every year. 

CRAWFORD: Which was when, roughly? 

C. TOPI: Probably around September-October, somewhere around there. 

CRAWFORD: It showed up at Caroline Bay in September-October?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did they say if it was around all summer? 

C. TOPI: Oh, I can’t remember how long they said it stayed. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did they say anything about any interactions? Did it give them any grief?

C. TOPI: Nope, not as far as I know. They used to clean their fish in there, so it probably just come around, swim around and get a feed. 

CRAWFORD: Caroline Bay was a fish cleaning station then? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. Well, some of the boats used to anchor in there at night. 

CRAWFORD: And they’d be cleaning what - Cod?

C. TOPI: Yeah, probably Cod. Cod frames and the Crayfish heads, because they used to tail their quotas. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, so Caroline Bay. Was this kind of known to be a ‘sharky’ area? Were there other White Pointers around?

C. TOPI: I don’t know. Everyone just used to talk about Caroline Jack. Could have been the only one there. 

CRAWFORD: Might have been the only one who knew about that cleaning station. Or it could have actually kept other Sharks away.

C. TOPI: He could have, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did they reckon it was a big Shark?

C. TOPI: They said he was a big one, yes. 

CRAWFORD: But no interaction between Caroline Jack and Humans - that you knew of?

C. TOPI: No. 

CRAWFORD: Are there are Seals all around Ruapuke? 

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Are there certain places where there are more Seals than others? 

C. TOPI: Yes. Over here. 

CRAWFORD: On the south end? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. They're right up the grass line. 

CRAWFORD: Nowadays, at any given time - roughly how many Seals might here be? 

C. TOPI: Well, I’d never counted - but they are getting thicker. 

CRAWFORD: Couple hundred maybe? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. Probably more. 

CRAWFORD: And have you noticed an increase in their numbers over there? 

C. TOPI: Yes, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Over how long of a time? Roughly? 

C. TOPI: Well, getting thicker and thicker all the time. 

CRAWFORD: Kind of a steady increase?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But there was a time where there weren’t so many Seals at Ruapuke? 

C. TOPI: Some places there weren’t any at all. Like the anchorage ... on that little point there. The other day when we went across, there were about ten on the rocks up there. And right round into our beach. Before you might have seen one or two. 

CRAWFORD: Are we talking ten years ago? Five years ago? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, probably ten years ago. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Ten years ago, hardly any. But gradually more and more?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you were a kid, did you ever see a White Pointer in #Bluff Harbour?

C. TOPI: Not in Bluff Harbour. 

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers or anybody else you talked? 

C. TOPI: There has been one seen in the harbour. But years ago, I think.

CRAWFORD: Do you know how far in to the harbour?

C. TOPI: I don’t know that. 

CRAWFORD: Let's go to any other source - your mates or anybody else you would have heard talking about seeing White Pointers anywhere around the south end of South Island?

C. TOPI: That day we got those two [on longline??], there was another one caught in here. 

CRAWFORD: Halfmoon Bay?

C. TOPI: Yes. I think Stu Cave, he might have got it. 

CRAWFORD: There have been stories of White Pointers swimming around in twos and threes, maybe larger groups. Did you ever hear anything about that? 

C. TOPI: No, I never heard anything about that. 

CRAWFORD: But you have direct observation of a situation in which there were three different animals in one small region? All approximately the same size?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: There are different possible explanations for that. Could have been that one individual happened to find you longlining, then another happened to find you ...

C. TOPI: But three?

CRAWFORD: Or it could have been that perhaps the three of them were together, and that the group found you. 

C. TOPI: I used to do a lot of Cod cleaning here, when I used to linefish. And what I vaguely remember, is me Father saying they used to come swimming in the harbour, right inside here.

CRAWFORD: That the White Pointers would come all the way in to the Halfmoon Bay wharf?

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. With them cleaning the Cod and that. 

CRAWFORD: He reckoned? 

C. TOPI: He just sort of mentioned it one day. And it just kind of occurred to me. Just came back to me there.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, ok. 

C. TOPI: Some of the old people out there ... Bill Pasco - get a hold of him.

CRAWFORD: Pasco - is that Paul’s Dad?

C. TOPI: Yep, yep. Get him, because he’s got a good memory, and he’ll tell you.

CRAWFORD: That’s good. I'll try to do that. In Horseshoe Bay and Halfmoon Bay ... did you ever hear the idea that there’s a line at the mouth of the bays; that if White Pointers come in across that line, then steps will be taken to remove them?

C. TOPI: No. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about Joe Cave’s nets?

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: You knew that they were specifically rigged as Shark nets to remove the White Pointers? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Some people say that that they didn't even really think about White Pointers all that much. But some others say there was a kind of anti-Shark attitude back in the day. That if there was a White Pointer around, it was just kind of common practice that you would draw the fish in close to you and then shoot it. Do you remember hearing about that? 

C. TOPI: Yeah some of the old people were kind of like that. And if you seen a White Pointer, it was always kind of a buzz to catch one. 

CRAWFORD: A 'buzz' in terms of a thrill?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And then come the jaws, and the teeth, and the bragging rights. That type of thing? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Was it that the White Pointers were thought of as a menace that needed to be shot in order to protect the people on the bathing beaches and out in the dinghies? 

C. TOPI: Not like that, not that I heard. No. But if you ever seen a White Pointer ... Yeah, that was your goal - to catch one of those big fish. Just to say you caught one. 

CRAWFORD: Like a trophy? 

C. TOPI: Like a trophy, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear old-timers talk about people that would actually put things - floating things - out to actually attract the White Pointers? 

C. TOPI: No, no. 

CRAWFORD: There’s a story that some of the old-timers would actually put newspaper out ...

C. TOPI: Yeah, I actually have heard that. If they seen one, I think it was. 

CRAWFORD: I’ve heard it at least two different ways. One of them was if you hadn’t seen them, and they’re around they’d come to you. The other way was if you had seen one, but you wanted it to get closer. You know, if you shoot at it past a couple of metres, you’re chances of hitting it are slim to none. You’d have to have it right close to you.

C. TOPI: Too far underwater, yeah.

CRAWFORD: But the point was that you basically needed to have the head at the surface, and the gun right next to it, in order to get the bullet in. 

C. TOPI: Well even if you shoot it, it's just going to go to the bottom. You’re not going to get it anyway.

CRAWFORD: Well, that’s the point. I think that’s where people were describing using the newspaper to get them in close - to shoot them, to remove the threat. In those cases, they weren’t actually after the trophy. 

C. TOPI: Ahh, ok. 

CRAWFORD: The whole story is a bit complex. It’s kind of hard to put it all together. But you had heard of the floating newspapers attracting White Pointers? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, I have. But it wasn’t that long ago I heard about that. 

CRAWFORD: You said before that you had seen lots of Basking Sharks. Whereabouts have you seen them? 

C. TOPI: Ruapuke - coming home. I’ve actually got it on film. There would have been about thirty-odd?

CRAWFORD: Thirty Basking Sharks?!

C. TOPI: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Well that’s more around here than I’ve heard before. Were they feeding or just swimming together?

C. TOPI: Just cruising. 

CRAWFORD: Cruising along as a school of thirty?

C. TOPI: Yep, yep. Everywhere - whereever you looked - there was fins. 

CRAWFORD: For somebody who didn’t know a fish from a hole in the ground, they might say "Look at that big Shark. It must be a White Pointer." You are somebody who has seen both - what are the most important differences?

C. TOPI: The floppy fin, the dorsal fin. 

CRAWFORD: Basking Sharks have a dorsal fin that flops over. What else is different between the two of them?

C. TOPI: That’s all I’ve seen. 

CRAWFORD: Colouration?

C. TOPI: A brownie colour, I think. That’s going back a few years. I was working with me Dad at the time. So, I was only about 15, 16 at the time. 

CRAWFORD: Swimming speed?

C. TOPI: Oh, they were just cruising. Just slow. The boat only done eight knots, and we were passing them. [both laugh] We actually had a movie camera.

CRAWFORD: Like the old 'Super 8's?

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. I was going through them at home a while ago, and I was going "I’ve got to get all these put on a disk." They were underneath us. Like, I was leaning over the bow of the boat.

CRAWFORD: And the animals were just completely oblivious?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen Basking Sharks feeding? With the mouth wide open?

C. TOPI: Yes, yes, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Where was that? 

C. TOPI: Henrietta Bay on Ruapuke. Yeah, along the beach. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of depth? 

C. TOPI: Well, probably just about rubbing his belly on the bottom, I would say. 

CRAWFORD: Mouth wide open? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. Me uncle ... we seen it swimming, and said "We'll go have a look at that." Pulled the dinghy down the beach. I’m rowing out - he was out there a wee bit. So, we rowed out and had a look. Then he turned around, and turned between us and the beach. I got the freaks, and flat out to the beach. But huge wide mouth on them. Massive. 

CRAWFORD: You got a little bit freaked out, but did the Shark behave in any way that ...

C. TOPI: No. Just swimming the beach. 

CRAWFORD: It had no interest in you at all?

C. TOPI: No, no, no, no, no. It's a plankton feeder. It won’t hurt you. But just that floppy fin - it was enough to know. 

CRAWFORD: Just as an aside - did you ever hear from up the Otago way, the story of KZ-7? 

C. TOPI: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Back on track here. You’ve done a good job. Been extremely helpful. Especially with your experience in this whole region of Foveaux Strait. 

C. TOPI: There was another bloke - he was netting up near Saddle Point, and he caught a White Pointer one day too. 

CRAWFORD: In a setnet? 

C. TOPI: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Tangled up? 

C. TOPI: I think it was, yeah.

CRAWFORD: When was that? 

C. TOPI: it was about the same time that we caught those two at Ruapuke. But we never got any in our nets. Just the two on our line.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about over towards Slope Point?

C. TOPI: No, I never seen one down there. 

CRAWFORD: No observations? Never heard of any?

C. TOPI: No, not that I’m aware. Might have been some of the fishermen out of Waikawa that seen them.

CRAWFORD: In terms of Shark attitude and Shark attacks ... have you ever heard of any White Pointers aggressively interacting with Humans in this region? 

C. TOPI: No, no. I’ve never heard.

CRAWFORD: But this is perhaps one of the most abundant regions for White Pointers in the country?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: There have been some reported White Pointer attacks in other regions of the country ...

C. TOPI: And there’s been none down here. 

CRAWFORD: And none down here. Why is that?

C. TOPI: Too much food down here for them.

CRAWFORD: That they’re simply not hungry enough to be forced into attacking Humans? You reckon there’s just so much food down here - it's as simple as that? 

C. TOPI: I reckon so, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What do you know about some of the more recent science research that had been done on these White Pointers?

C. TOPI: Nothing. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about the tagging program that’s been done over the past 10 years?

C. TOPI: Oh, yes. I’ve heard about how they follow them. 

CRAWFORD: What kind of things have you heard about that?

C. TOPI: I heard that they had a big beeper at the end of Ulva [Island], that was going off quite often. That’s just what I’ve heard - that they're swimming up the [Paterson] Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember anything else that you might have heard about the tagging research?

C. TOPI: They shift out of these waters and follow the sun. I’d heard about one that swum out of here, and went to Surfer's Paradise.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think these animals are on these long migrations?

C. TOPI: Well, it’s just like the Muttonbird. It comes here, does it’s nesting, and then goes away to overseas - flies out, comes back every year. 

CRAWFORD: Do you reckon the White Pointers are reproducing here? 

C. TOPI: Well they’re either mating down here, or having babies here one of the two. Be good to know. 

CRAWFORD: Anything you’ve ever heard, from any source, about White Pointers mating?

C. TOPI: No. 

CRAWFORD: Anything you’ve ever heard, from any source, about White Pointers pupping?

C. TOPI: Little ones? No. 

CRAWFORD: And these are live births now, decent-sizes pups. Metre to two metres. You haven’t seen any?

C. TOPI: No. Has anybody ever seen one?

CRAWFORD: Only a few reports down south around here. But up on North Island, yes. 

C. TOPI: North Island? 

CRAWFORD: In the bays, yeah. 

C. TOPI: Oh, ok.

CRAWFORD: Getting back to what the old-timers would have known about White Pointers. The people who lived in this region before the Sealers and the Whalers - the possibility of them having known things about these animals ...

C. TOPI: It hasn’t been passed down, has it?

CRAWFORD: Well, I’m not sure. Part of my job is simply to ask people to share what they wish.

C. TOPI: We had a friend, an old lady - I think she was born on Ruapuke.  She lived in Invercargill. Me and the Wife used go up and see her. She’d start telling me a story, and she'd only tell you half of it - chop it off, you know? You’re waiting on the other half of it to find out. But with my Wife, she used to pick her up, and take her to do her groceries and that. And she'd tell her the whole story. I was talking to one of her Granddaughters one night, and I said "She would tell me these stories, but she would never finish them." And the Granddaughter, she goes “Was she like that with you too?” I said "Yeah." She said "Well, I'm her Granddaughter and that’s what she used to do with all her Grandkids. Only tell them half the story.” And then she died, and no one knew the other half of what happened. She’d start telling you about things that happened on Ruapuke ... and then she'd just stop. And you were waiting on what actually happened. 

CRAWFORD: Do you reckon that was specifically her thing, or was it an old-time way of teaching?

C. TOPI: Well, I don’t know. But when she told me Wife the stories - who’s not even a relation to her, it's only through marriage - she'd tell her the whole story. [both laugh] I said "Why doesn’t she tell the whole stories?" My Wife says "I don’t know. She always tells me the whole story."

CRAWFORD: All I know for sure is, if people like me don’t take the time to actually come out and find people like you - we never get to learn about it. I've learned so many things about White Pointers that just are not known to Science.

C. TOPI: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Because you’ve got history in Bluff, I want to ask you about the freezerworks. There have been other people that said back in the day - maybe 60, 70 years ago - when the freezer works was operating, that the discharge, at Ocean Beach ... at times there was a significant amount of blood, and sometimes bits and pieces that ran out into the bay. Some people have talked about White Pointers there. Did you ever hear about that?

C. TOPI: Nope, nope.

CRAWFORD: Did you hear anything about Escape Reef? 

C. TOPI: I’ve heard there were sightings up in Escape Reef

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about the beaches along Te Waewae Bay?

C. TOPI: No, not that I can recall. 

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: What was the first time you remember hearing about or seeing a White Pointer? 

C. TOPI: I was at Paterson Inlet one time for a holiday, and there was about four or five boats tied alongside each other. We were camping the shore, us kids, I suppose we were about 14 or so. And we rode out the boat for breakfast, because Mums used to cook our breakfast in the mornings when we got up. We’d ride the boat out in the morning, have our breakfast, and then jump over the side swimming. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

C. TOPI: We swam ashore in Big Glory Bay. One of the boys loaded the dinghies, and towed the dinghies ashore. We hopped in the dinghy to go from one beach round to another. And the next thing our parents are screaming out that behind us there was a big fin. We presumed it was a White Pointer. And we’d just been swimming there.

CRAWFORD: Was this before the cage culture in Paterson Inlet?

C. TOPI: Yes, this is going back quite a few years ago. 

CRAWFORD: And this was in Big Glory? 

C. TOPI: This was Big Glory, yes. No, hang on - this was in Little Glory. 

CRAWFORD: Little Glory, ok. This is very interesting you should mention this. If you were 12 years old, that’s going to be the early 1960s?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see the fin?

C. TOPI: Yeah. When my parents were singing up, and pointing. 

CRAWFORD: To your best recollection, how big was that fin?

C. TOPI: Oh, I don’t know. But from what I recollect, it’d probably be about that high out of the water. Could have been higher when the parents seen it, but it was about that high. And it looked bigger, being kids. 

CRAWFORD: So, about a foot out of water?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But it was certainly big enough that they saw it. How far away were you from them?

C. TOPI: Oh, probably about ... they’d have been over there. 

CRAWFORD: Say 100 metres?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: If that fin was big enough for them to see it at that distance, then I think maybe it was higher than a foot when they saw it. I’m not sure if I could see something a foot tall at that distance. But they did, and they were concerned. 

CT. Yeah, they were concerned. They were screaming out.

CRAWFORD: Did they have the impression that the Shark was following your dinghy?

C. TOPI: Yes, yeah. But we’d been swimming too. 

CRAWFORD: When you were swimming, you didn’t see anything?

C. TOPI: Nope. No, no, no. 

CRAWFORD: When you finally saw the fin, did it circle?

C. TOPI: We went straight into the beach, and it just carried on and disappeared. 

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] For your experience in Paterson Inlet, that wasn't just an observation - because the Shark appeared to be following you kids?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: It could have been just a Level 2 drive-by. But if it was actually following, then that’s going to be a Level 3, because that’s interest. 

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But no attitude? It didn’t bump the boat or anything like that?

C. TOPI: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s go to the period of time you spent fishing with your Dad. 

C. TOPI: Alright. 

CRAWFORD: What was the next time you saw a White Pointer?

C. TOPI: Me Uncle had a net set at Henrietta Bay. 

CRAWFORD: Southwest corner of Ruapuke?

C. TOPI: Yeah. We were all staying ashore at his house. We used to run out in the mornings, and hop on his boat. Like they do here [Stewart Island] on the dayfishing. We would dayfish from there. We actually come from Bluff, but we stayed ashore every night. My Uncle set a net for bait, and he rode out in the morning - him and his crew. They went to lift the net and this big [towel??] popped up, and they’d caught one in his setnet. And it was 12-foot-6.

CRAWFORD: That White Pointer had gotten tied up?

C. TOPI: Tangled up in a setnet, yes. 

CRAWFORD: A relatively short setnet - like the ones you were describing?

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: The ones you used to catch some fish for bait. 

C. TOPI: Yeah. Greenbone mainly, and stuff like that. 

CRAWFORD: Was the Shark alive or dead?

C. TOPI: He had a wee bit of kick with him, but not much. It was enough for them to pile the net back over the side, and go and get a bigger boat to lift it. 

CRAWFORD: Were you there when the bigger boat lifted it?

C. TOPI: Yes. And that was the first one I’d ever seen yanked out of the water. 

CRAWFORD: The animal was probably pretty much done by then?

C. TOPI: It was pretty done by then, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: About 12-foot. Do you remember what time of year this was, roughly? 

C. TOPI: It was probably about Christmas, I reckon. The Crayfish were there, so it would probably be the end of August to Christmas. Somewhere in there. 

CRAWFORD: How old were you?

C. TOPI: I was probably about 16. 

CRAWFORD: Did you cut it open?

C. TOPI: Yes we did, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: What did it have inside? 

C. TOPI: Didn’t have much. 

CRAWFORD: Do you remember if it was a male or female?

C. TOPI: No, I couldn’t tell you. 

CRAWFORD: For the people on Ruapuke, was that unusual? Or was that pretty commonplace?

C. TOPI: I’ve netted around there for a long, long time. And when we’re Crayfishing, we set these nets 2-3 times a day. And we’d never ever got one. 

CRAWFORD: Just that once?

C. TOPI: It was just they once, that I can recall. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s continue with the period of time that you were helping your Dad. In all that time, did you ever see another White Pointer?

C. TOPI: Not that I can recall. 

CRAWFORD: Do you recall the old-timers, or anybody else for that matter, talking about places where White Pointers aggregated?

C. TOPI: No, I can’t recall.

CRAWFORD: So, it wasn’t the case that people thought that Ruapuke was ‘sharky’ in that regard? No more or less than anywhere else? 

C. TOPI: Well, no one took any notice of them, because we never seen them. I’d only seen two in - I don’t know how many years. 

CRAWFORD: No special reference to the Titi Islands? 

C. TOPI: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: Let's talk about the time when you were fishing on your own, after that period fishing with your Dad.

C. TOPI: I’ve seen a lot more. 

CRAWFORD: In the period of time that you were skipper on this vessel, through to the present day, roughly how many White Pointers have you seen? 

C. TOPI: Probably six. 

CRAWFORD: Six animals in about 40 years?

CRAWFORD: Tell me about the next one.

C. TOPI: To the best of my memory, the next one I seen was a night we went into Ruggedy, dropped the anchor, and we were cleaning Cod. Mollymawks all around. What we called a [Big Stinkpot Nelly??] - it’s like a Mollymawk, but it’s black. He landed, and all the Mollymawks took off. And I said to me crew "He’s scared all the Mollymawks!" And then this thing’s getting through the water at quite a speed, and he gets away from it, but then this thing comes circling around us. It’s quite a reasonable-sized Shark. White Pointer. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see the White Pointer coming up?

C. TOPI: No, no. Because we were cleaning, and the next thing we know, it’s being carried through the water. 

CRAWFORD: The bird was being carried by the Shark? In its mouth? 

C. TOPI: Well, it must have had a wee nip of its feet or something. Because it was going like nobody’s business. It got away in the end. 

CRAWFORD: Less a foot?

C. TOPI: Might have been, yeah. And then the Shark come back around, and swam by us. 

CRAWFORD: You were anchored while you were cleaning? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And the Cod frames were going over the gunwale? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: The White Pointer circled around a couple of times? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, was moving around for a while. He was quite big. 

CRAWFORD: Did it bump or interact in any way? 

C. TOPI: No.

CRAWFORD: Did it roll over at the surface, have a look at you? 

C. TOPI: Just circled. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly, when was this?

C. TOPI: Just after I bought this vessel. Probably the first year I had it - because there was a Māori boy working with me at the time. 

CRAWFORD: Time of year?

C. TOPI: Oh, that I can’t remember that one. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's go to the next time.

C. TOPI: The next time we come back up, this is about 10 days later. and we laid in a place called Smoky Beach. Same thing, we were cleaning, and the next thing this Shark comes swimming around us. So, we drop the line over the side with a hook - quite a big Shark hook. 

CRAWFORD: Size? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, like a crowbar size. We put some frames on it, put it on a buoy. 

CRAWFORD: The float was what - a metre or two in diameter? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, about that. Because we had a chain on it as well. And we put it out and just carried on. He came around, took the line, so we pulled him in. We got him right up the back end of the boat.

CRAWFORD: You’re doing this just by hand? Or on a puller?

C. TOPI: No, by hand. He was just swimming along, there was hardly any weight. We pulled him in, and we got him right up the back end of the boat. And he just went like that, put his nose out, opened his gob, and just spit the hook out. It hadn’t been actually hooked in him. 

CRAWFORD: It had just been holding the hook in its mouth?

C. TOPI: Just holding it, yeah. He never thrashed around or nothing while we were pulling on him. He was going with it.

CRAWFORD: His head came up out of the water?

C. TOPI: Yeah. His head was under water. He just kind of poked his head up like that, opened up his gob, and went and spit the hook out. Then he just sort of carried on, swimming away. 

CRAWFORD: Didn’t circle around after that?

C. TOPI: Nope, nope. Didn’t see him again after that. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of size ... my experience is that fishermen are pretty good at reckoning the size of things. 

C. TOPI: He would have been about ... that’s 10-foot across the stern of the boat, so he would have been about a 12-footer, roughly. 

CRAWFORD: I didn’t ask you before, but was it about the same size as the animal ten days before?

C. TOPI: Roundabout the same size, yeah. Could have been the same Shark. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. Who knows? But that was at Smoky, and ten days later?

C. TOPI: Yeah. We were in here the first time, and ten days later we were in here. 

CRAWFORD: How many miles between them, do you reckon?

C. TOPI: Oh, that’d be probably about three or four miles? 

CRAWFORD: But a fish cleaning station, in both cases.

C. TOPI: Yep. On the anchor, cleaning. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was the next White Pointer you recall? 

C. TOPI: Well the next White Pointer - we got two. We were actually lining for Greyboy Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: When was this, roughly?

C. TOPI: Oh, who knows. Got it written down at home, because I got some photos of them.

CRAWFORD: Just approximately. 

C. TOPI: Probably two years after.

CRAWFORD: So, mid-80s?

C. TOPI: Something like that. Maybe 89?

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?

C. TOPI: Foveaux Strait, over here. 

CRAWFORD: Northwest of Ruapuke?

C. TOPI: Northwest, between Ruapuke and Dog Island. We were chasing Greyboys, and we had two lines out with a hundred hooks each. 

CRAWFORD: You were longlining?

C. TOPI: Longlining, yeah. When we were pulling the line up, the White Pointer come up, and took a snap at our fish. 

CRAWFORD: A White Pointer taking Greyboys off the line hooks?

C. TOPI: Yeah, taking the Greyboys. All we were getting was the heads, and no back ends. 

CRAWFORD: So, you knew there was a Shark down there taking your fish?

C. TOPI: But then we seen it. And we had a harpoon up on deck. And I said to the boys "Keep pulling up on it, and I’ll get the harpoon. When it gets up far enough, I’ll jam it in his nose." And I said "Hit the deck, because he’s going to come out of the water!" But he wouldn’t come up past the boat. He’d only come up to under the bottom of the boat, then he’d turn around and swim away again. 

CRAWFORD: Underneath, but not along the side?

C. TOPI: No, no. He wouldn’t come up the side. He just hung around underneath. 

CRAWFORD: And you were ready with the harpoon but it never came up close enough?

C. TOPI: That's right. 

CRAWFORD: This would have been in the summer? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, after Christmas.

CRAWFORD: Size? 

C. TOPI: Probably about 10-12 foot, something like that distance. So that’s alright - we run that line back ...

CRAWFORD: Whoa. The story’s not over?

C. TOPI: No, the story’s not over yet. We let that line run out, set it again. And we went and lifted the other one, and it kept on jumping out of the hauler. We lifted it, and then the rope kept on jumping in, and the boys said "We're fouled on the bottom." I said "We're not fouled." I looked over the side, and here’s this big white thing. So, we pulled it up and it was tangled up with all of the hooks. It must have took a fish, and there was a bit of slack in the line, and he’s done a circle, and then the hooks are hooked into him. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

C. TOPI: So. we tied him up, got him up, tied his tail, and tied him to the boat, and carried on lifting.

CRAWFORD: Wait a minute. This was a fresh White Pointer, it wasn't dead?

C. TOPI: No, he’s a fresh animal. But back in them days, when you got one of them - you wanted the teeth out of them.

CRAWFORD: But even if this is only a 10-foot White Pointer, it's the better part of a tonne of muscle. And you have its tail tied to your boat. This is a decent sized boat, but that’s still a lot of energy in that Shark. And the animal’s just laying there?

C. TOPI: The only time he’d really play up, is when you brought his tail out of water. 

CRAWFORD: Was it upside down?

C. TOPI: Yeah, he was upside down. 

CRAWFORD: It came in on the line upside down? 

C. TOPI: Yes, yes. 

CRAWFORD: And it was pretty much still? 

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: But when you pulled its tail out of water, it got active?

C. TOPI: Must be a new sense.

CRAWFORD: Was that a male? Did you see claspers?

C. TOPI: I don’t know. I wouldn’t know the difference.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But that animal, when you pulled its tail out of the water - it got active?

C. TOPI: Yes, very much so. So, we put him back under, let him back in the water. And I gently walked around to the back of the boat, and tied him up. 

CRAWFORD: And then towed it backwards?

C. TOPI: Towed him backwards, yep. We were finished lifting the line, tied it up, then we set it again. And then we went back, and lifted the other one that we’d set - that the first White Pointer had been on. 

CRAWFORD: It had a White Pointer on it as well? 

C. TOPI: We got two on one day. We towed them home, to Bluff, and we pulled them up on the wharf. We had the lines around the tails, and we dragged them up over the wharf. We measured them, and one was 10-foot-6, and the other one was 10-foot. 

CRAWFORD: A double header? 

C. TOPI: It was a double header. But we’d seen another one when we were lifting our last line too. He was swimming around too. We’d got two, but we definitely seen three that day. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. That definitely brings up at least two things we need to talk about. I can understand the animals, the White Pointers going after Sharks that you’re getting on your longline. I've heard about that type of thing quite a bit. But the fact that the White Pointer didn't struggle when you brought it in ...

C. TOPI: No. Not under the water. 

CRAWFORD: Not under the water, and not with its tail down?

C. TOPI: No. Soon as you pull his tail up, he would start thrashing.

CRAWFORD: You moved the Shark back, upside down, to the stern of the boat - and it was just laying there? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Then you brought in the second animal. Did it come in upside-down as well?

C. TOPI: I can’t remember.

CRAWFORD: Did it thrash around?

C. TOPI: We got a wee bit of a kick when we pulled its tail out of water too, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, but was it the same kind of thing, you turned it upside-down? Was that part of the trick, is what I’m trying to get at. 

C. TOPI: Yeah. It was easier upside-down, because they didn’t seem to have any kick with them upside-down. 

CRAWFORD: And you tied them both to the stern of the boat, upside-down.

C. TOPI: One was on the side. 

CRAWFORD: Then you finally brought in all of your lines?

C. TOPI: Well, we couldn’t work because we had these two Sharks up. 

CRAWFORD: Right. And you’re what, maybe about half an hour out of Bluff?

C. TOPI: Probably over an hour away from home. And it's quite funny, because we hadn’t told anybody that we had these two Sharks. And we come up in the harbour, and there would have been 60 people taking  photos of us. 

CRAWFORD: I bet. Now, this was prior to protection for the White Pointers?

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And you knew that these teeth were valuable.

C. TOPI: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Valuable from a cultural point of view, or a personal trophy point of view, or for sale or what? 

C. TOPI: Well, we took out what we wanted for earrings and necklaces and stuff like that. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. 

C. TOPI: And then my Brother - who was working with me - he just took the teeth and sold them. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. What happened to the carcasses from these two White Pointers?

C. TOPI: They laid on the wharf. They were going to go on the boat the next day. But somebody cut the stomachs open.

CRAWFORD: Ok. 

C. TOPI: When we took them out whole, they still had their stomachs and everything in them. We had just cut the jaws out. Went home. There was a big ship lying on the other side of the wharf, and some of the crew must have cut them open to see what was inside them, I suppose. We come down to the wharf in the morning, to roll them on the boat to take them to sea - cut them up, and over the side. There was a million birds flying around as soon as we come down the wharf, and we knew what had happened. Somebody cut them up, and there was all laying all over the wharf, and gulls were having a ball. We couldn’t roll it because the stomach was all flabby. So, we actually had to cut it up on the wharf, and chuck bits on the boat to take to sea again. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a bit of a mess. 

C. TOPI: Yes, it was. A big mess. 

CRAWFORD: Maybe it's not possible to answer this question, but based on what you saw - did you have any indication of what actually had been in the stomachs?

C. TOPI: No. No. 

CRAWFORD: The birds had been in there and pretty much ...

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, we don’t know what those animals were eating. 

C. TOPI: No. 

CRAWFORD: Well actually we do - at least most recently. They were going after your fish.

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And that was out in the middle of Foveaux Strait. 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was the next White Pointer you saw?

C. TOPI: I think that’s about the last one, if I remember rightly. 

CRAWFORD: Those two, on the long line?

C. TOPI: Yep. That I can remember. 

CRAWFORD: Getting back to what you heard from other people in your time up towards Fiordland - any White Pointers over there?

C. TOPI: I did off a place called Houseroof. Just south of George Sound, there's a place called Houseroof there. We were Crayfishing up there ... it would have been after Christmas.

CRAWFORD: Roughly, what year?

C. TOPI: Well, I was running the boat then. Jack and Tristan were with me, so it could have been about 14 years ago. 

CRAWFORD: So, 2000. In around there?

C. TOPI: Yeah. I actually seen one come out of the water. 

CRAWFORD: A White Pointer breach?

C. TOPI: Yeah. I couldn’t believe me eyes. 

CRAWFORD: Were you underway at the time?

C. TOPI: No, we were lifting the pot, and I was looking out the window. Just because the two boys were working on deck, and I was just looking around. And the next thing, I was “Look at that! Look at that! Look at that!” They were too busy doing their jobs to take any notice. I was shouting "Over there, over there, over there!" But they only seen the splash. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see the White Pointer come out of the water?

C. TOPI: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did it have a Seal or something in its mouth?

C. TOPI: Too far away to actually see anything. 

CRAWFORD: How far away, roughly? 

C. TOPI: Probably from here to about over there.

CRAWFORD: About 200 meters?

C. TOPI: And I was talking to a bloke who’d fished up there all his life. We were alongside there for a while, and I told him, and he said he’d seen a couple do that too. 

CRAWFORD: Right up out of the water?

C. TOPI: Right up out of the water. And it's outside Houseroof - it’s deep water. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

C. TOPI: Comes up into a reasonable shallow, and there’s quite a few Seal rookeries in there. So I thought "What else could it be?" You see it on tv, but you never think you’re going to see it in real life. 

CRAWFORD: And like we said, this is a lot of fish. It's got to be moving at a very high rate of speed, to get it all out of the water. Do you reckon it was completely out of the water? 

C. TOPI: He was completely out of the water. 

CRAWFORD: And when it fell back in ...

C. TOPI: It just fell on its side. Fell back in. Splash!

CRAWFORD: A hell of a splash, I'd guess.

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah. Big splash, because the boys seen the splash but not the fish. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see any birds clustered around at all?

C. TOPI: Nah, I can’t remember. 

CRAWFORD: You didn’t see any blood? You didn’t see any indication ...

C. TOPI: Nah. We just carried on working. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, ok. Was that the only time up Fiordland way that you saw a White Pointer? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. Well, I presume it was a White Pointer. It looked very much like a White Pointer. 

CRAWFORD: Well, it was no Basking Shark. 

C. TOPI: [laughs] No, no, no. I seen lots of them.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: Did you remember hearing anybody else saying there were White Pointers in Paterson Inlet? 

C. TOPI: No. 

CRAWFORD: What about Horseshoe or Halfmoon Bay?

C. TOPI: No, I haven’t heard of anybody seeing them in that area ... Well, hang on. Yes. Me Mum and Dad were at this point when I was a baby.

CRAWFORD: Acker’s Point? 

C. TOPI: Acker’s Point - when I was inside Mum. They were out there with another couple, trying to catch a fish. And a White Pointer come up, and had a wee shake of the dinghy they were in. 

CRAWFORD: That was in 1949, when your Mum was pregnant with you? So technically you were in attendance, but you didn't see anything. 

C. TOPI: No. [Both laugh] There was another couple with them, and she was pregnant too. Two blokes, and they fished together. They went out there, took their wives out for a tour in the dinghies.

CRAWFORD: Their pregnant wives. 

C. TOPI: Their pregnant wives. And this thing come along at Acker’s Point. 

CRAWFORD: This was a story your Dad told you? 

C. TOPI: And me Mum. 

CRAWFORD: So, they both told you the story. The animal came up and ... did it do a swim-by, or did it bump the boat?

C. TOPI: They just said it come up, and bumped the boat, and they started rowing straight into the box. That’s as far as I know. 

CRAWFORD: It was enough for our Dad and his mate to get the boats in asap. 

C. TOPI: Especially with the pregnant wives there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. And these would have been maybe 10-foot or 12-foot dinghies? 

C. TOPI: They'd be the old clinkers. 

CRAWFORD: Clinker dinghies? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. They used old clinkers in them days. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how big?

C. TOPI: Roughly 10-footer. Could have been a 12-footer. Me Mum was just telling me ... we were talking about it a wee while ago. 

CRAWFORD: What about other people? What kinds of experiences have you heard from them about the White Pointers?

C. TOPI: Well, Ricky’s had encounters with them. He was trying to feed one, one day. 

CRAWFORD: Trying to feed a White Pointer?

C. TOPI: Yeah, leaning over the side with a fish. And me cousin Peter, he was there at the same time. They had a boat each - they were fishing close together, and they seen this White. I think Peter seen it first. So Ricky went over to him, and I think he got some baits on a string or something, and hung them over the side I think, and tried to catch him. 

CRAWFORD: Where was this, Ruapuke? 

C. TOPI: No, this was up here somewhere - in the Straits about there. 

CRAWFORD: Out in the middle of Foveaux Strait?

C. TOPI: Yeah, out in the middle. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how long ago was this?

C. TOPI: Oh, I’m no good with dates or months or years. Maybe 10 years ago, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: Time of year? 

C. TOPI: No. Can’t remember. 

CRAWFORD: Winter? Summer? 

C. TOPI: It’d be in the summer. They were Codding in the Straits. 

CRAWFORD: Codpotting? 

C. TOPI: Yep, yep. 

CRAWFORD: It’s a big Strait. Whereabouts do you think it might have been?

C. TOPI: Probably up around here’d, I’d think. 

CRAWFORD: So, off the Saddle again?

C. TOPI: Off the Saddle yep. I’d say. 

CRAWFORD: Closer to the island? 

C. TOPI: Yeah, probably up around here. We called it the Chicken Patch, well if you go ...

CRAWFORD: Yeah. If you’re looking at it the right way.

C. TOPI: Yeah. [laughs]

CRAWFORD: [laughs] Ok. So what happened? 

C. TOPI: Well, as far as I’ve heard, Peter seen the Shark.

CRAWFORD: Circling around? 

C. TOPI: I don’t know. So he calls Ricky on the VHF, to come and have a look. So, he steams across. And Ricky’s got a heap of Cod frames.

CRAWFORD: From cleaning his catch? 

C. TOPI: Yes. It was alongside his boat, and the boat’s like 30-something feet. So it was a good-sized Shark

CRAWFORD: Did the Shark come and take the Cod frames?

C. TOPI: Not that I know of, no. 

CRAWFORD: But Ricky was offering it?

C. TOPI: He was offering it. Might have let it go.

CRAWFORD: Even though they were out by the Saddle, they were offshore when they were dumping their Cod frames?

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: It’s hard to make the argument that place is a cleaning station, because they were out in the middle of the Strait ...

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Maybe it was just a Shark that happened to pick up the berley trail or whatever. Followed it in, and hung around because there were Cod frames coming over? 

C. TOPI: My Brother used to use Salmon guts all the time for bait in his Codpots. That leaves a big oil slick line, because Salmon’s real oily. It probably got the scent of that. 

6. effects of cage tour dive operations

CRAWFORD: What is the first time you remember hearing about Shark cage diving in these parts?

C. TOPI: In these parts, Mike Hainesy - I think he was the first. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly when did that start? 

C. TOPI: I’d say it’s about four or five years ago, I suppose. No, earlier. Because Jack’s had his boat about five years, and we’d been away for a while, and we come in here and the Argo - Scott.

CRAWFORD: Peter Scott? 

C. TOPI: He was in here, doing some. That’d be six years ago. 

CRAWFORD: I believe in the first year, Peter rented Mike’s boat. And then Mike figured it was going to be a business model, so it became two operations. 

C. TOPI: Ah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And then, DOC [Department of Conservation] introduced the requirement for a permit last year. Prior to that, no permit was required. 

C. TOPI: Nah, because Jack - he’s doing the 'loopy' thing ... we call it the 'loopy' thing - tourism and charter work.

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

C. TOPI: That time we were in here, and Peter Scott was here - we asked him a lot of questions. Jack was after another boat, and said "Well, that would be interesting to get into." I said "Get a decent-sized boat, and go do it." He rang up the Ministry of Fisheries - that crowd, and asked them if you had to have a permit.

CRAWFORD: When was this? 

C. TOPI: This would have been six years ago. 

CRAWFORD: He made an inquiry, and they told him he needed a permit?

C. TOPI: Nope. No permits required from them. So, he went to see the DOC crowd, and they said no permit required.

CRAWFORD: For other reasons, Jack decided not to do it?

C. TOPI: He just got busy doing other things. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s an interesting thing. 

C. TOPI: I said to him a while ago "You should go for your permit in Shark cage diving. Even if you don’t use it, you’ve always got it."

CRAWFORD: Kind of like a quota?

C. TOPI: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: I think I need to talk to Jack, because I think that’s an important part of the story. I hope that he calls me back. if he doesn’t, can I get you to maybe give him a ring? 

C. TOPI: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, the permit - that’s what I focus most of my questions on - because it’s not so much about the effects that were happening prior to the permits being required. It’s about the effects of the activities as described in the permits. Have you ever seen the cage diving operations?

C. TOPI: Nope. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, like you might reckon, the boat leaves the harbour over at Bluff, comes on over to this side of the Strait. Do you know where the cage diving takes place?

C. TOPI: Yeah, tucked in here. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Edwards Island. Either side of it, depending on the wind. 

C. TOPI: Yeah. They used to do some down here too. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, they did some at Bench prior to the permits. 

C. TOPI: I don’t think it was as good there. 

CRAWFORD: I don’t think the mooring was as good, and maybe the consistency of White Pointers that they can draw in at Edwards. It’s those two things together. Ok, so they come in, depending on the wind, they anchor ...

C. TOPI: I think they start berleying, throwing over the oil. 

CRAWFORD: They do - they have a berley pump. 

C. TOPI: I don’t how it works, but I presume that’s how it goes. 

CRAWFORD: It's a fine mince, according to the permit. I think both of them use Tuna, because it's something the Sharks respond very well to. And after the berley is in, when the Sharks come up around the boat, the cage - if it's not already in the water, it goes in. Then the people go in the cage ...

C. TOPI: Have a look. 

CRAWFORD: Right. The operators are allowed by the permit to have a bait on a tow line - tow bait. 

C. TOPI: I think they’re allowed three baits, and then they’re only allowed to be a certain size. 

CRAWFORD: The whole point is, under the permit they’re not allowed to actually feed the Sharks. The berley as a scent, the tow bait as a kind of visual attractant - but under the permit, the animals aren’t supposed to get food in their mouth. So, the people in the cage have their moments, their pictures. And at the end of the day they stop berleying, they lift the cage, and they go back home. 

C. TOPI: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Based on that common understanding of the operations in their current form, do you think that that kind of cage dive operation would have an important and lasting effect on the White Pointers? 

C. TOPI: Well, they’re probably getting friendlier. 

CRAWFORD: What do you mean by 'friendlier'? How does a White Pointer get 'friendlier'? 

C. TOPI: Just coming in, getting like ... Before they wanted to hang off. Before they might not want to come into the boat so close. 

CRAWFORD: So, they might be more cautious without cage diving?

C. TOPI: Yeah, cautious before. Now they know. You know what I mean, getting more friendly?

CRAWFORD: Ok. Becoming less cautious at the cage dive boat in operation?

C. TOPI: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: I want to put a place holder on that 'friendly' - you’re the only person who’s used that term. I don’t want to over-interpret, but you’ve made me think of something that nobody else has triggered. 

C. TOPI: Alright.

CRAWFORD: First factor, let’s talk about the place - the place prior to there being any berley or bait. Some people are adamant that if it was straight berley, no feeding - that these White Pointers would figure it out and bugger off. Some people think the animals are still being fed, because feeding is the only thing that would keep their behaviour to stay and come back that strong. But right now, we’re still just talking about the permit - and when the permit conditions are being followed, there is no feeding with the exception of the occasional and limited loss of the tow bait. Do you think that berley, the smell of food only - would cause White Pointers to hang around Edwards Island more than if there was no berley being put out there?

C. TOPI: Probably not. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that there would be the same amount of White Pointers in that same region, as there would have been even with the berley? 

C. TOPI: Probably, about the same. They're probably not coaxing anymore in than what there would be if there was no berley. But these people are seeing them more. Before, no one was seeing them, because they weren’t actually looking for them, were they?

CRAWFORD: Well that’s an important part of it. I wasn’t going to ask about it till later, but we can do it now. It seems there are at least four different things that could have changed over time. One thing that many people agree on, is that there are more White Pointer-Human interactions now, than there were even ten years ago. Would you agree on that? 

C. TOPI: Yes, yes. 

CRAWFORD: And there are at least four different things that could be involved in that increase of interactions. There could be more Sharks now, than there were before. So, their population abundance could be going up. Another possibility is that there might be the same number of Sharks, but their behaviour has changed and they are now more 'friendly,' less cautious or secretive. It’s also possible that there are the same number of Sharks as before, and they are just as cautious as before - but the thing that has changed is the number of people that are around, the number of Human eyes that are out there. 

C. TOPI: Yes, yes.

CRAWFORD: I’ve been told that if you go to the boatsheds or launches over at Bluff, the number of recreational boats has just gone through the roof. You’re a Bluffy - have you seen or heard anything about recreational day-boaters leaving from Bluff, and coming out to Ruapuke, and coming over to the Titi Islands just for day-trips?

C. TOPI: For recreational fishing, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Well, either for boating, or recreational fishing or perhaps for an ecotour moment. 

C. TOPI: Well, most of them do it to catch a feed of fish. 

CRAWFORD: Of the people that come over from Bluff, how many would go fishing over at Ruapuke, compared to the number that would come over to the Titi Islands?

C. TOPI: Majority would come over to Ruapuke, I’d say.  

CRAWFORD: And those day-boaters they would have to be careful getting over here? They’ve got to take the long way. 

C. TOPI: Well, no. You just go from here to here. 

CRAWFORD: Oh, so it’s the shelf here that’s the hazard?

C. TOPI: Yeah. Around the mouth of the harbour. Yep, yep. 

CRAWFORD: And most of them, you reckon, are going out to do their fishing at Ruapuke?

C. TOPI: Yeah, well you listen on the VHF, on 61. And they're checking in with the shore station, "Away Ruapuke" "Bye Ruapuke" and "I'm going to the North Islands." You know?

CRAWFORD: And most of those day-boaters are out, at least in part, for a for a feed of fish?

C. TOPI: Yep, yep. 

CRAWFORD: Have you heard of any dayboaters that have gone over to the Titi Islands specifically to see the White Pointers? Have you started to hear about that? 

C. TOPI: No, not yet. But they wouldn’t say "You know, we went over to the North Islands just to watch Sharks." 

CRAWFORD: Probably not. But either way, you haven’t heard it around town either?

C. TOPI: No, because lots of those people aren’t from in town. They’re out-of-townies. People that have got their toys, and stuff like that. You getting what I’m saying?

CRAWFORD: Yes, I think so. You haven’t heard about it, but you wouldn’t be surprised if they were. 

C. TOPI: Oh, that wouldn’t be a surprise at all. 

CRAWFORD: Well, evidently it has been happening. 

C. TOPI: Mike and Peter would know more about that. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, they’ve made some comments. The reason I’m bringing it up now, regarding the cage dive operations, is because some of the people who are coming out for these day-trips ...

C. TOPI: They're feeding them. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. They are feeding the White Pointers. 

C. TOPI: Yep, yep. 

CRAWFORD: And you can see perhaps why - because if you put food in the water, it would increase the chances of seeing a White Pointer there. They probably don’t know what they’re doing, in terms of increasing the risk of changing the behaviour of the Sharks. The key here is - realistically, it might not even matter if the Shark dive operations are feeding the White Pointers, if they are being fed by other people anyways. It gets back to making that association between boats and food smell and food. And it gets back to the condition in the operator's permits that says "It’s ok if thou shall berley, but thou shalt not feed."

C. TOPI: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: If the animals are still being fed, it’s potentially a major issue. But let's get back to breaking the issue down. Do you think that it's a completely different story if there’s food involved, rather than just the smell of food?

C. TOPI: Probably yes. They would probably hang around more if they’re getting fed, and they hear the sound of the motor and engines. 

CRAWFORD: We’re going to get back to motor sounds in a minute. I just want to grow this one piece at a time. The first thing is the place - I ask if you think that they would associate just the smell of food with the place around Edwards island because of the berley. Do you figure the effects of the cage tour dive operations would be to congregate the White Pointers around Edwards?

C. TOPI: Oh, I think it would be yeah. 

CRAWFORD: The next thing is to add a boat - not specifically the tour dive boats, just any old boat. Like your boat, or a daytrippers boat,  even a boat I brought in from North America, never been here before. Do you think White Pointers that experienced the cage dive operations, that they would associate the smell of food with the presence of 'a boat' - and if they saw 'another boat' at 'another time' that they would be more likely to go up and investigate it? 

C. TOPI: That’s a hard one. 

CRAWFORD: I know it is. And you don’t have to answer - you can say you don’t know. 

C. TOPI: Well, I wouldn’t know, no. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, let's get back to the sounds of motors from the cage tour dive boats. And realizing that they’ve both changed their boats over the past few years. What were you going to say about those sounds? 

C. TOPI: Whether they pick up noise from the propeller - like vibrations from the propeller?

CRAWFORD: Do you think that White Pointers exposed to the cage tour dive operations - that they associate the sounds associated with those particular boats, or any other characteristic of the boat or the motor?  Do you think that the White Pointers are capable of recognizing those specific boats, even before any berley or cages?

C. TOPI: No, I don’t think they are. Because they changed boats, and they still get the same amount of Sharks around them. 

CRAWFORD: Well, we don’t know. We don’t have any data on that. 

C. TOPI: Well, no. But I presume they are. 

CRAWFORD: Both operations are still running, so they’re still getting Sharks?

C. TOPI: And they’ve both changed boats. 

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. Maybe let’s put it in a different way ...

C. TOPI: So, if I went out there ...

CRAWFORD: Edwards Island? 

C. TOPI: Yeah. And they weren’t there. I went there, anchored up. I reckon the Sharks would come up, even though I haven’t got a cage. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s imagine someplace else, where the exposed White Pointers would hang out, but somewhere there was no cage tour dive operation. Would they still come around your boat to investigate? 

C. TOPI: Probably not. Can Sharks hear? Sense the vibrations. They must. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. I think they can hear in a bunch of different ways too. 

C. TOPI: Yep, yep, yep. I think it might be the engines of the cage dive boats. They can come across here, and the Sharks hear the engines, and head into there.

CRAWFORD: Let’s imagine that the White Pointers are moving around - that they’re not always at Edwards Island. They’re touring around Stewart Island, Ruapuke, or somewhere else. And then they come back. Let's say that an animal that had previously been exposed to the cage dive operations, that it was over at Ruapuke. Do you think it would recognize Peter's cage dive boat over there? Recognize it as one of the cage dive boats and investigate it at Ruapuke?

C. TOPI: No, don’t think so. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the White Pointers would associate the smell of food with the presence of Humans in the water? Let’s say one goes off to Oreti Beach or someplace else - and there are people in the water there. Do you think that the Sharks would be more likely to investigate the Humans there, more than if they had never been exposed to cage dive operations? 

C. TOPI: That’s a hard one. I don’t think they would. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, Colin. That's all I've got for you. Thank you so much for participating

C. TOPI: No problem.

Copyright © 2019 Colin Topi and Steve Crawford