Colin Hopkins

YOB: 1953
Experience: Commercial Fisherman, Pāua Diver, Charter Operator
Regions: Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait
Interview Location: Halfmoon Bay, Stewart Island, NZ
Interview Date: 14 January 2016
Post Date: 10 August 2020; Copyright © 2020 Colin Hopkins and Steve Crawford

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Where and when were you born, Colin?

HOPKINS: Invercargill, in 1953.

CRAWFORD: And what was the age at which you remember first spending a lot of time around the water? How old were you? 

HOPKINS: Ever since I can remember. Every day I’d come out of primary school, I’d go and get a dinghy, and go rowing. 

CRAWFORD: During those early years, I'm presuming you kids would have to be supervised by adults?

HOPKINS: Not in those days. I had no lifejacket. But there was a whole group of us that were brought up on the Island...

CRAWFORD: That looked out for each other?

HOPKINS: Well, not even that. I was an only child. I tended to play on my own. But I’d row out, and catch a few Cod out round the beacon in the middle of the Bay. I would row out to Old Mill Creek, if it was high tide after school. 

CRAWFORD: At what age, roughly? Are we talking five or six years old?

HOPKINS: Well, I first went fishing with my Father when I was seven. 

CRAWFORD: On his boat?

HOPKINS: Yeah. In the holidays. And we were away for thirteen days. Ever since, I wanted to be a fisherman. It’s all I wanted to do. And that was about the age that I was allowed to row off in the dinghy. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Ok. Prior to that, if you spent time at Bathing Beach or whatever, would that have been with family?  With Mom or relatives? 

HOPKINS: No. Usually on my own. 

CRAWFORD: The point is ... seems it was clearly a different way of growing up, here on the Island back in the day. Like others here, you were always around the water. We’re doing this interview in your current home in Halfmoon Bay. Where was your house back then? 

HOPKINS: Just behind the fire station. First house closest to the fire station, just behind the DOC [Department of Conservation]. My Mother still lives there. My Father just died. September, last year.

CRAWFORD: I think you said you first went out with your Dad when you were seven. What kind of a fisherman was he? 

HOPKINS: He was a good fisherman. 

CRAWFORD: No, I meant ...

HOPKINS: [chuckles] Very hardworking. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. What was he fishing for?

HOPKINS: Just Crayfish. You didn’t really go Codding in those days.

CRAWFORD: What size of boat did he have? 

HOPKINS: 46 feet.

CRAWFORD: Where would he go fishing? 

HOPKINS: Very bottom of the Island. 

CRAWFORD: These would have been one-week to two-week trips? 

HOPKINS: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Was this before freezers?

HOPKINS: No, he had freezers on the boat. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You were about seven years old. So, that would have been around 1960. I'm guessing that he would have actually started fishing prior to freezers, that he had been fishing during the transition.

HOPKINS: Ah, yeah. They used to have turn about, running the fish up. Must have been some terrible quality fish landed in those days. 

CRAWFORD: I would think so. 

HOPKINS: But freezer technology came in a long time ago.

CRAWFORD: And it had a huge effect. It wasn’t nearly the market then as it is today, in terms of harvest. Where was most of the fish being - or in this case, the Crayfish - being sold? 

HOPKINS: It was frozen tails to the US. 

CRAWFORD: Even back then, back in the '60s?

HOPKINS: New York and Chicago. 

CRAWFORD: And the clearing-house? Who was the wholesaler? 

HOPKINS: Jones. It was a company. 

CRAWFORD: Out of Invercargill? 

HOPKINS: No, well, they had a factory on the wharf down here on Stewart Island. That was through to about mid-60s, and then that got bought up. When the Stewart Island Fishermen’s Co-op started up, all the good Skippers pretty much got their own boats, and the co-op would finance them into it. So, it was just a collective. 

CRAWFORD: Right.

HOPKINS: And I think that changed the financial side of it, because the merchants who owned all the boats, they had 20-30 boats each, the companies. And the fishermen only got paid enough to survive on. Treated them mean. 

CRAWFORD: So, when the co-op here was started, it shifted the finances?

HOPKINS: Yes, you got full value for your fish. The shed was built in Halfmoon Bay there, in ‘68. 

CRAWFORD: When you were fishing with your Dad, aged seven, down at the bottom end of the Island, you were gone for two weeks at a time. I would imagine that like most seven-year-old boys would have been, you were working your way through the fishery. What kinds of things would you be doing to help your Dad? 

HOPKINS: String up bait. That’s probably the main thing. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Was it exclusively a fishery that was executed down on the south end? 

HOPKINS: Other people fished at different places around the Island, but he always fished there. 

CRAWFORD: When the weather turned bad, where would you be if you weren't fishing down south?

HOPKINS: We’d just come home. Rather than being stuck there for three more days with the weather, we’d tend to just come home. 

CRAWFORD: As a seven-year-old, how often would you go out with your Dad? Once a month? 

HOPKINS: Throughout the school holidays. Whenever I’d get the chance, I’d go out fishing with him. Then I had to go to high school in 1966. I had to go there until I got school-certificate.  Because I just wanted to go fishing.

CRAWFORD: How old were you when you got school-certificate?

HOPKINS: Sixteen. I was made to get UE. University Entrance.

CRAWFORD: Your parents made you? 

HOPKINS: Yep. So, I got University Entrance, and they finally relented, and let me go fishing. [both laugh]

CRAWFORD: What age, when you finally went full-time into fishing? 

HOPKINS: Oh, I would have been about eighteen.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Just before we move on from there, when you were back home, not out fishing with your Dad, what kinds of activities would you be doing back home here? Out and about, in a dinghy?

HOPKINS: In the non-fishing season, you spend all your down time getting ready for your next trip.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, working at the shed, working on the boat?

HOPKINS: Just working on the boat. I didn't work at the shed.

CRAWFORD: What I’m trying to do is map out where else, around Stewart Island coastal waters, you would have spent time. Did you ever spend any time around Paterson Inlet? 

HOPKINS: Yeah, but very limited in those days. Because my Father wasn’t into boating - other than fishing. It’s not till I got my own boat then I went diving. Which gave me a good knowledge of the inshore parts of Stewart Island, because I dived all round the Island. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’ll put a placeholder on that. It's a natural breakpoint when you got your own boat. As a kid, any other activities that I should know about? I realize that most of it you were either focused on the boat or the gear, getting ready for fishing. 

HOPKINS: But in the off-season, I didn’t really do a lot. My cousin and I used to go handlining for Cod. 

CRAWFORD: Where would you do that? 

HOPKINS: Just out Halfmoon Bay. At the entrance.

CRAWFORD: Right. Did you ever spend any substantial time in Horseshoe Bay? 

HOPKINS: No, not a lot. 

CRAWFORD: Any time out at the mouth of Paterson Inlet?

HOPKINS: Not when I was younger, more ...

CRAWFORD: More recently? 

HOPKINS: Yeah. Once you start doing charters, you spend a lot more time in those places. 

CRAWFORD: That’s another big placeholder, then. Alright. When you were eighteen, and decided to go fishing fulltime, was that on your Dad’s boat, or were you working on another boat by then? 

HOPKINS: No, I actually bought a boat identical to his. 

CRAWFORD: A 42-footer?

HOPKINS: 46. 

CRAWFORD: But geared up for Crayfishing? No Codpotting or anything at that point? 

HOPKINS: Oh, I did, yeah. You still did Codding in the off-season, but probably more of it later, actually. I just used to take our Crayfish gear in, and then we’d start Codding. Usually out round the Traps. So, we just Codded until the Crayfish started potting. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly, when were the Crayfish on? What time of year? 

HOPKINS: August. 

CRAWFORD: They start coming in round August, and you would fish them for how long?

HOPKINS: Till we couldn’t catch anymore, which is end of February. This is pre-quota. And it was open slather. You could catch, just as long as you had a license. 

CRAWFORD: And quotas came in mid-80s, I think? Or was it different for Crayfish? 

HOPKINS: ‘89. But prior to that, they put limited licenses on it. Then we became what they called a closed fishery. They wouldn’t make up any more licenses. 

CRAWFORD: Right. But when you started, it was simply when you couldn’t catch more?

HOPKINS: Yeah. When I started, I was worried that I’d miss out on my license. That had been talked about up until then. But I got a license when I was twenty.

CRAWFORD: Ok. August to February - Crayfish. Prior to that, before the Crayfish started to show up around August, you were Codpotting out at the Traps? 

HOPKINS: Yeah. Also around the Cape, we used to fish a lot around there. 

CRAWFORD: So, Codpotting the southern end of the Island as well?

HOPKINS: Just depending on the weather. Because you needed better weather for around there. 

CRAWFORD: Right. When the Crayfish harvest was done, did you spend any more time out on the water? Or were you back to port, for the most part? 

HOPKINS: Back to port. 

CRAWFORD: When you were gone on your own vessel, still the same type of routine though? Maybe two-week trips? 

HOPKINS: No, we wouldn’t stay as long a time… That first boat was quite slow. Good boat, but slow. I could only keep it like eight knots or so. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

HOPKINS: After about three years I got a fast boat built, which cut my travelling time down a lot. 

CRAWFORD: That would have been about mid-70s? 

HOPKINS: ‘78. 

CRAWFORD: And how big was that boat? 

HOPKINS: 43 feet. But there was a hard chine planing hull. 

CRAWFORD: As in, twice as fast?

HOPKINS: Yep. So, I only used to stay away maybe a week then. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Because you could make the trip back and forth so much easier. 

HOPKINS: Yeah. The boat, of course because it was faster, it burned more fuel, and your hull capacity was smaller. 

CRAWFORD: So, more along the lines of one-week trips, then, in the new boat?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Late-70s on. Was there any change in gear configuration, or was it pretty much the same activities? Craypots, Codpots?

HOPKINS: Just the same. 

CRAWFORD: Did you ever do any, linefishing? 

HOPKINS: No. 

CRAWFORD: No. Did you ever do any commercial Pāua diving back then? 

HOPKINS: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: When did that start? 

HOPKINS: Well, when I first got my boat. First thing I did with it. 

CRAWFORD: You were using it then for Cray and Cod ... 

HOPKINS: And Pāuas. 

CRAWFORD: What locations for the Pāuas? 

HOPKINS: All around the Island, just depending where the rolls were, depending on the weather. We used to setnet as well, for bait, for quite a few years. Just right in shallow. I mean, we used to catch a few School Sharks, but never any White Pointers or anything. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Relatively short setnets too? 

HOPKINS: Yeah, 30 metres.

CRAWFORD: Just enough to get some fish to bait the pots?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Pāua diving would have been more generalized in terms of regional activity, though?

HOPKINS: Oh, you’re right round the Island in different places, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Whereas Crayfishing and ...

HOPKINS: Crayfishing's always been a quite specific here. Now, because most of the boats have dropped out, we actually fish a lot from Broad Bay, right round here, and up to here. 

CRAWFORD: Up to Doughboy? 

HOPKINS: Yep. We used to be 20 or 30 boats probably in that area at the height of it. But now there’s only two of us left.

CRAWFORD: And was it the case ... I think that you mentioned, if I was listening closely, was it the case that certain regions of shoreline were associated with certain fishermen? That there was certain, not territories but ...

HOPKINS: It was just a group of fishermen that really fished out of Pegasus, there was a group that fished based in Lords River, there was a group that used to be ... oh, eight or twelve boats down here in the height of the fishing. Another group would fish out of Easy Harbour, which was a good base. Then there was more boats based out of Mason’s, but they're gone.

CRAWFORD: And you said, I think, at that point there were maybe a dozen boats fishing the southwest corner of Stewart Island? 

HOPKINS:  Yeah, just that bottom part. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. What was it about the market or the fishery that caused the fleet to decline? 

HOPKINS: Quota. When quota was introduced, it was probably being overfished. Because no one liked to admit that. It was very competitive. Too many boats, too many pots. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah. 

HOPKINS: And with the advent of quota ... when it was finally issued, they had to start somewhere with the quota. And we were given an average of our catch over a certain six years. But before that was issued, they took off 35.1%, to compensate for the overfishing. 

CRAWFORD: Off the top?

HOPKINS: Before it was issued. The next year they took off 8%, the next year they took off 10%. Then, after a few years, they changed the management regime, and gave us two cuts of 20%. So, while all this was going on, there was a sudden change to the live market, to Asia, away from the US. No one could compete with the prices from Japan and Taiwan. 

CRAWFORD: Aside from the frozen fishery to the US ...

HOPKINS: It just stopped. Just stopped whole. 

CRAWFORD: Everything started to go live, to Asia?

HOPKINS: And if that hadn’t come, we would’ve all gone broke. Because prices went up so high, it compensated for the cuts. 

CRAWFORD: Right. When was that? Roughly? 

HOPKINS: Mid '90s, I suppose.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Just to wrap up with regards to Pāua diving, were you diving off the same boat that you were potting from? I mean, you’d have a dinghy that was deployed ...

HOPKINS: We’d have a dinghy, yep. 

CRAWFORD: In terms of your crew complement, how many people did you have when you ran Cray-Cod operations?

HOPKINS: One crew. 

CRAWFORD: So, Skipper and one mate. When you were Pāua fishing from the dinghy ...

HOPKINS: Just two of us. 

CRAWFORD: Just two divers? 

HOPKINS: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: No dinghy boy? 

HOPKINS: Good old days. We just had big tractor tubes, had a big net under them. Would hold pretty close to a tonne of Pāuas. We used to lift it aboard with a block and tackle.

CRAWFORD: Right. And over an expanded range that I think you said up to, but not north of Doughboy?

HOPKINS: Oh, I’ve Crayfished up around Mason’s. But now I’ve settled in the last ten years.

CRAWFORD: I was actually asking about your range for Pāua diving. Was it all the way up to Ruggedy? Around the northwest corner?

HOPKINS: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Ok. And your Pāua diving days started when you got the first boat. Did it continue right through your career?

HOPKINS: Only for probably close to ten years. 

CRAWFORD: So, about a decade of Pāua fishing. Why did you stop Pāua diving? 

HOPKINS: I got a boat built in Australia, and I was a bit hard-up, so I sold my Pāua quota.

CRAWFORD: It was an economic decision. 

HOPKINS: Yeah. And I thought Pāua were getting a bit depleted round the Island, at the time. 

CRAWFORD: And that would have been ...

HOPKINS: Well, it was 1989.

CRAWFORD: Alright. From the time that you had the Cray-Cod operation, when you were running that fishery. Did you ever change boats again after that?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What was the next boat? 

HOPKINS: Well, after getting that fast one built, I kept that for ... It was fast, but it wasn’t built strong enough. 

CRAWFORD: Not really for the open sea?

HOPKINS: Did a bit of damage to it. Rough weather. So, I purchased an aluminium boat, second-hand.

CRAWFORD: What length?

HOPKINS: 48 feet. The Arun. Garry Neave's boat. I had that one for about six or seven years.

CRAWFORD: Fished the same operation, the same gear?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: A sturdier boat. And I have a feeling there was a new boat coming after those six or seven years as well?

HOPKINS: I went to Australia, and had a 50-foot catamaran built.

CRAWFORD: What was the name of that vessel?

HOPKINS: Aurora.

CRAWFORD: That's the one you still currently have?

HOPKINS: That was the first Aurora.

CRAWFORD: Aurora I. What year did you get her?

HOPKINS: 1989. That's when I first really got into charters. You can go Codding and chartering as well.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That's an important break point. 

HOPKINS: I was still going Crayfishing and Codding. 

CRAWFORD: Right. At what point did you introduce chartering?

HOPKINS: The last year I had the Arun. It wasn't really designed as a passenger boat. But I could see that it was a good alternative to Codding in the off-season. So, I said "Right. I'll get a boat built that I'm allowed to do ferrying." After some back-and-forth, I was allowed twenty passengers across Foveaux Strait.

CRAWFORD: Would it be fair to say that it was the chartering business that primarily motivated purchase of that vessel?

HOPKINS: Yes. And it was fast. 

CRAWFORD: You also fished it commercially as well?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: You said 'off-season' - but now, really, you had two 'on-seasons.' What was your fishing season then?

HOPKINS: It still had to be August, September, October, November. Because that's when the Crayfish bite.

CRAWFORD: So, the off-season from fishing started around Christmas-time?

HOPKINS: Yeah. As quota got reduced, of course the season was reduced.

CRAWFORD: There were constraints, not just on the harvest, but also on the time?

HOPKINS: Because you've filled your quota. For a long time, we were just restricted to whatever quota we'd been allocated. That was it. All of a sudden, I'd gone from catching eighteen and a half tonne average, down to ten or twelve tonne. It only takes me a certain amount of time to catch it.

CRAWFORD: I'm presuming that there weren't significant market fluctuations within season?

HOPKINS: Oh, there are. Especially for the people that are leasing quota. Most of the profit from the catch goes to the owner. Those people that are leasing, they tend to fish for the high prices of the season. I don't actually worry about high-grading. I just go and catch my quota, because I've got quota without leasing. We really got cut back with quota.

CRAWFORD: It sounds like almost fifty percent.

HOPKINS: At the moment, we're catching less than half of what we were, when quota was introduced.

CRAWFORD: And that was as a full-time Crayfisherman?

HOPKINS: Yes. So, the average catch has gone way down. There were 237 boats in the fishery when quota was introduced. Now, there's about 65.

CRAWFORD: Well, I guess I have to ask you ... That's about 25 years of quota; how have the Crayfish stocks responded to the quota reduction?

HOPKINS: Fishing's as good as I've seen it in forty years. It's brilliant.

CRAWFORD: Would you ascribe that brilliance to long-term effects of the quota system?

HOPKINS: Initially I didn't. But I suppose I have to now. Because we throw so many fish back. Any of the big bulls that we used to take. A lot of my quota was made up of catching big females. But now we throw them back. So, we only take the smaller ones - up to about a kilo and a half.

CRAWFORD: Because that's what the market prefers?

HOPKINS: They want the big ones. But they don't travel well with the bigger fish. They stress. They just don't travel.

CRAWFORD: Ok. We got off topic there a bit. But I did want your opinion on the quota system.

HOPKINS: Well, to me it's brilliant. But it's very hard for someone young to get into it.

CRAWFORD: Yes. But it would have been even more difficult for someone at any age to have gotten into a fishery wasn't sustainable. Because, the next thing you know, it's shut down completely.

HOPKINS: I can remember coming home, a good few years ago now, there were all these papers spread over the table. My Wife says to me "I just worked out how much it costs you to go fishing." I didn't even look at it. I said "It's like farming. You have good years and bad years." [both chuckle]

CRAWFORD: Ok. You've got August to January for Crayfishing ...

HOPKINS: But see, once you got onto quota, everybody wanted to be finished by Christmas. After a while, everyone was trying to get finished by Labour Day weekend. Because fishing was getting good. Like, we've had brilliant fisheries for six or seven years now.

CRAWFORD: And that meant more time for chartering? If you had two businesses on the go?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: When did you start chartering in a substantial way?

HOPKINS: That's when I got the Aurora built. I picked it up in Freemantle, drove it back here ourselves. Within twelve months, it coincided with ... I was just flat out chartering. I started carrying hunting parties, mainly. And then people doing all sorts of things. The ferry company at the time was going broke. So, three of us got together, and we formed a small company – we had the contract for harvesting at the Salmon Farms.

CRAWFORD: Big Glory Bay?

HOPKINS: Yep. That was sort of a sideline. So, I proposed to them that we get a bigger version of my fishing boat built. Run it as a ferry. And we did. The previous ferries had all been government subsidized, and we did it ourselves, on our own money. That just went from success to success.

CRAWFORD: When was that boat purchased?

HOPKINS: 1991.

CRAWFORD: What was the name of that vessel?

HOPKINS: Foveaux Express. We had it built specifically for the job. Drove it back here. And we ran the ferry company for fourteen years.

CRAWFORD: Were you Skippering the Foveaux Express at all?

HOPKINS: Sometimes, yep. Skippered. Crewed. Engineered. Unblocked the toilets.

CRAWFORD: At that point in time, you were ...

HOPKINS: Very busy. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Yes, you were very busy. You were also a fishermen, a charterman, plus you were a ferryman?

HOPKINS: Yep. I mean we had hired Skippers and Crew for the boats, but every now and again, something would crop up, and we'd go out ourselves.

CRAWFORD: Sure. Of the three of those jobs, during that period of time, roughly what was the percentage split in your effort? When you were a fisherman in-season, you were doing that exclusively?

HOPKINS: Exclusively. Nothing interrupts me when I'm fishing.

CRAWFORD: Right. Outside of fishing then, you were a charterman and a ferryman. What was the split between those two jobs, during the fishing off-season?

HOPKINS: Very hard to say. I didn't spend as much time running the ferry, as one of the other partners did.

CRAWFORD: So, maybe 80:20? Something like that?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I realize the charters are varied. There's a bunch of different things potentially going on. Let's try and generally scope out those kinds of activities. Previously you said something about shuttling hunters - taking parties from point A to point B. Various parts of the Island?

HOPKINS: That's the core business.

CRAWFORD: What about the eco-tours at that point?

HOPKINS: That grew more, once I got the Aurora built, the second Aurora. Because I sold the first Aurora – that was in 2000. I sold her back to Australia. I'd had it for ten years, at that stage. And then I got my current boat built. Aurora Australis, my fishing boat.

CRAWFORD: Was that built by the same manufacturer?

HOPKINS: No, Invercargill. I've had that for ... it'll be fifteen years in March.

CRAWFORD: Was that built with the intention of being a charter vessel as well as a fishing boat?

HOPKINS: Crayfishing, mainly. It's also got a 20-passenger license for Foveaux Strait.

CRAWFORD: So, once again it's dual-purpose?

HOPKINS: Yes. It was launched in 2001. Four years later, I had a friend who was in between jobs and wives – he was actually Crew for a few years. I was just getting inundated with inquiries for charters at that stage. Charters that I didn't want to do, like carrying hunting parties. I said to him "If I get a boat built, do you want to drive it?" He said "Yep." That was when I got the current Aurora built. That was 2004.

CRAWFORD: From 2004 to 2015, has it been pretty much ...

HOPKINS: It's just gotten busier and busier.

CRAWFORD: Yes, an increase in business. But in terms of the operations, over the past ten years, have there been any new vessels, or significantly different activities?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: What kinds of charter activities are you involved in now, as opposed to ten or fifteen years ago?

HOPKINS: Weddings. Funerals. The biggest growth has probably been birdwatching tours.

CRAWFORD: There's a greater proportion of people going out for pelagic birding? Going out around the Titi Islands, or along the northeast coastline?

HOPKINS: We run what we call a Birding Bonanza. We run it in conjunction with Phillip Smith’s Kiwi spotting trips, and Ulva’s guided walks. That's one of the things we do. Every Tuesday, you know you can come here, and there will be a birdwatching trip on. So, we either take people from Halfmoon Bay at midday, and they can go to Ulva Island and pick up the bulk of the people from there. Take them on a four-hour trip in the afternoon, down as far as *Wreck Reef, down here.

CRAWFORD: So, the easternmost part of Stewart Island?

HOPKINS: But the two main Birdwatching Companies in New Zealand both use us as well. They usually want all-day trips. So, we do birdwatching trips right from the bottom of the Island out to the Traps. Which are long days, long trips.

CRAWFORD: Yes. And they're over a different section of water than you would normally be, if you weren't chartering for them?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: In terms of your charters, the pelagic birding – would that be, say 80% of your work?

HOPKINS: No, no, no. Maybe 20%.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What makes up the other 80% of your chartering? Other than weddings and funerals?

HOPKINS: Things crop up. [both chuckle] We do a lot of school groups, now, they come in here for summer camps. They walk to Port William, we pick them up from there, and bring them back to Halfmoon Bay. Then the next day, what usually happens with these groups of 40 or 50 children and parents, we'll take them to Ulva Island, drop off half there, and take the other half fishing. Couple hours later, we go back and swap them over. And then bring them all back. Or wander up to the Salmon Farms in Paterson Inlet.

CRAWFORD: That's an important point. When did you start spending more time in and around Paterson Inlet?

CRAWFORD: When I got the Aurora. This Aurora, the latest Aurora. Doing more of those charters. But see, I just sold it – three weeks ago.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you spend any significant time on the other side of Foveaux Strait?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: You're pretty much an Islander, start to finish?

HOPKINS: I've done a couple of charters into Fiordland. And we've been up there a couple of times on holiday on the boat. Because the boat sleeps ten.

CRAWFORD: So, you'll take it up north once in a while?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

HOPKINS: But the thing is, I struggle to get time to do it.

CRAWFORD: Yeah.

HOPKINS: So, this is my last year fishing. Ty, the lad that was here ...

CRAWFORD: Ty Jenkinson?

HOPKINS: He'll run my boat, for the charters. And then I'll do probably one more year fishing. Then he wants to go fishing. He's got quite strong feelings about Shark cage diving. Because he's a diver.

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: To what extent has Māori culture and knowledge affected your understanding of New Zealand Marine ecology generally, maybe White Pointers specifically?

HOPKINS: Very low. I've never heard of any particular Māori stories about Sharks, to be honest.

CRAWFORD: Ok, same question for the Science knowledge system. To what extent has it affected your understanding of New Zealand Marine ecology generally or White Pointers specifically?

HOPKINS: I find it very interesting. I mean, I know Clinton [Duffy, DOC]. I've spent quite a bit of time with him, out doing those receivers. And I always have a yarn with him whenever he's here. I find him really interesting to talk to. And that's where I've got most of my information. And what I've read, articles that were written.

CRAWFORD: Ok, that sounds like it's going to be a High or Very High level of influence. Have you had, over the years, interactions with other Scientists that you chartered your vessel to?

HOPKINS: Not for that, specifically.

CRAWFORD: No, but for example - you were showing me an article on your phone from the news. Do you read articles that DOC puts out, or other things like that?

HOPKINS: Just talking to people, including people from DOC, who have been on those trips.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So overall, where would you rank that level of influence that Science has had on what you've come to know about marine ecology?

HOPKINS: Oh, very high, yeah. It's interesting. There's a whole new series just came on TV now. The first episode was last week. It was really interesting. Brilliant photography. So, I've recorded the series. We'll watch it each week.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

 CRAWFORD: When was the first time you remember hearing about, or seeing, a White Pointer?

HOPKINS: Ever since I was young, very young, there was occasional White Pointers, Thresher Sharks… You'll have seen photos in the pub or the museum of these huge Sharks. There used to be a big davit on the wharf. They'd bring them in, and hang these Sharks up on that. Every now and again, there was a massive Shark there. Everyone knew there were Sharks around. It wasn't till Joe Cave was here, like in the '70s. Sometimes the plane would fly in here, and they'd see a Shark silhouetted on *Bragg's Bay Beach. And they would tell whoever, and Joe would set a Shark net in the Bay, and he invariably caught one or two White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: We'll get to that in a second. Let's go back to your first recollection. Do you remember, from the old-timers, or from when you were a kid, do you remember hearing about White Pointers before seeing them? Or was there an event when you saw one of these animals brought up?

HOPKINS: No, I probably heard about them. People talk about big Sharks that had been caught over the years.

CRAWFORD: And when you heard about them, was it handed down with caution to the young kids to be careful? Or was it just a natural part of life here on the Island?

HOPKINS: You just knew they were out there.

CRAWFORD: At that point in time, was there a sense that these animals posed a constant threat to Human life?

HOPKINS: I don't think so. Because I don't ever remember anyone being bitten down here. Or taken by Sharks.

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing that you probably heard echoes of attacks from elsewhere, and you can imagine that those attacks have had significant social effects. But it wasn't that way here. It wasn't as if somebody had been taken at Bathing Beach.

HOPKINS: No. It's unusual. People get bitten left right and centre in Australia, South Africa, California. But not here.

CRAWFORD: That's a question I was going to ask you later on, but we're here already. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that elsewhere there are so many attacks, but not here?

HOPKINS: I don't know.

CRAWFORD: I'm not here to jinx anything. There is nothing in my asking that is intended to change anything. But you're not the first person to say that.

HOPKINS: At the beach in Dunedin, there's been people bitten there. The Chatham Islands - you know, Kina Scollay. Bites to prove it. And Campbell Islands. 

CRAWFORD: Very recently. And the Campbell Island incident surprised a whole lot of people.

HOPKINS: They didn't know they were there.

CRAWFORD: So, these White Pointers are obviously doing a lot of things out in the open ocean that we are not aware of. But I still have to come back to that question. Why not here?

HOPKINS: Because there's so much food here. They're only here because of the food resource.

CRAWFORD: And when you say food, White Pointer food, it's Seals?

HOPKINS: It gets back to when Joe Cave had the nets. Of course, they used to open them up, and they were always full of Cod heads. Cod heads, and Cod offal. Because the boats all used to sit around the mouth of Halfmoon Bay cleaning their Cod. And that's what brought them in.

CRAWFORD: That's one of the things that has come up in several of the interviews as well. There are some people who, as you just said, tied the presence of the White Pointers with the presence of Seals. Some have shared the history of Seals in this region over time. In a broader sense, saying that the colonization of Europeans in this region, first the Sealers, then the Whalers. And there was a time when Seals were quite rare around Stewart Island. That it's only within living memory, within your lifetime, that the numbers have come back up. Have you noticed that kind of increase in Seal abundance?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: In your experience, around Stewart Island, when did you start to notice the dramatic increase in Seal abundance?

HOPKINS: Probably the last ten years. Like I remember DOC - they do a census on Bench Island each year. And they used to reckon there was a static population of about 500 Seals. That's probably about ten years ago. Now, they reckon there was 500 Seal pups alone.

CRAWFORD: 500 pups! So, up in the thousands now? At Bench Island alone?

HOPKINS: Possibly.

CRAWFORD: Geographically, from let's say Ruapuke... Do you have any experience out here around Ruapuke?

HOPKINS: Oh, I've fished out there for a couple of years, three years.

CRAWFORD: When you think about areas from Ruapuke southwest, the places with the most Seals, all the way around the Island for that matter - what areas do you think of?

HOPKINS: Down around the bottom of the Island here. It's really heavily populated. It's just specific points and places around here. Sea Lions are really getting more and more intense around Port Pegasus. I've just been down there last week.

CRAWFORD: Over what period of time have the Sea Lions taken over?

HOPKINS: Well, we've been going there on holiday for the past 40 years. There's hardly a year in the past 40 that we haven't been down there.

CRAWFORD: But see, that's what makes your perspective so valuable. Between your ears, you've got that time series. Over that past 40 years, when did the Sea Lions really start to show up?

HOPKINS: I think each time we go there, they're thicker and thicker. DOC was reckoning they didn't actually breed on the Island. But now, every time we go there, we see Sea Lions with pups. At the Auckland Islands, where the main population is, you get a big bull - and he'll have a harem of 20 or 30 Sea Lions or more. Up here, you see one male and one female. We've got photos of them lying on the beach together. It's one on one. Whereas, down there, there's big harems.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that is?

HOPKINS: I don't know. It's probably a better lifestyle for them. Because each male has a female. You see them laying together on the beach. It's amazing. We've got photos of them. And a few times we've seen them, and they'll have a pup as well.

CRAWFORD: When do you recall seeing Sea Lions down there, for the first time? Or were they always there?

HOPKINS: They've always been there. I think there's more and more now.

CRAWFORD: When did that increase start, do you recall?

HOPKINS: It's just a slow increase over the years.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Am I correct in thinking that where there are Sea Lions, there typically are not Seals?

HOPKINS: Sea Lions like the beaches.

CRAWFORD: Seals like the Rocky points, the haul-outs?

HOPKINS: But I've seen Sea Lions chasing hell out of young Seals. Specifically, at the Snares Islands, where some of the researchers there have seen Sea Lions actually eating Seals.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Coming up the southeastern shore of Stewart Island ...

HOPKINS: Very few up along here. But once you get towards Lords River, you'll see a Seal colony there. Sea Lions still on a lot of these beaches. Most of the hunting parties see them. And on these islands here, there's lots of Seals. The Sea Lions are really increasing in numbers around the Neck, and these islands here where the Yellow-Eyed Penguins used to be.

CRAWFORD: Inside Paterson Inlet?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: What about changes over time in Seal abundance at the mouth of Paterson Inlet, and in front of the two Bays here?

HOPKINS: Just odd Seals you see on the likes of the Lighthouse Point. But it's more on the islands, offshore islands.

CRAWFORD: Let's talk about the Northern Titi Islands, then. Even though this isn't a place where you focused most of your fishing effort, but it's right there.

HOPKINS: I fished out of the Bay for three years.

CRAWFORD: Yes. And remember, it's also the knowledge of the other fishermen, including the day-fisherman that might also have gone out there. Back forty years ago, I gather that there weren't really a lot of Seals out at the Titi Islands?

HOPKINS: No, I don't know. Couldn't tell you.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But, more recently people have been saying that there's been a dramatic increase in Seal abundance out there. And this obviously becomes important, because of the idea that some people have that the White Pointers are here for the food. And the Seals are the food. So, as the food is increasing, perhaps the White Pointers are increasing?

HOPKINS: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: One thing we didn't talk about was the protection measures. You had early colonizers coming in, as Sealers. They caused a massive reduction in Seal abundance. And the animals are not silly, they're not going to stick around where they're being hunted, or likely to be clubbed, or whatever. But then protection measures came in, and after a lag the numbers started to increase. I guess it's probably a logical question at this point, do you think that as the Seal population goes, the White Pointer population goes? That as the food source increases, the abundance of the predators also increases?

HOPKINS: It possibly will.

CRAWFORD: And there has definitely been an increase in the abundance of the Seal population?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: So, that could be happening now, or will happen in the near future - an increase in the abundance of White Pointers around here?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And back, through your lifetime at least, there really hasn't been historically the number of Seals as there are now. Another question for you, one that came up in a couple of interviews ... we were talking about Paterson Inlet, some people were talking in a different context about Seals in Paterson Inlet. It's going to take us into a different question in a second, but over your lifetime - has the Seal population abundance in Paterson Inlet, was it the same as elsewhere around the Island in terms of the general abundance increase?

HOPKINS: I don't think there was ever as many in there. Most of the Salmon farmers will tell you that once the Salmon Farm was established up there, there was a whole colony of Seals pretty much established themselves in Big Glory.

CRAWFORD: Yeah. Several people have thought that it was in direct response to that food source the White Pointers preferred. Let's get back to your description of places around the Island with lots of Seals.

HOPKINS: They're just some places with lots of them. Like Joss's Passage in here. And East Cape it is a place we always take birdwatchers on our trips. We call in close to it, because there are so many Seals on that point. We can go right in close to the rocks, so people can see the Seals. They're always there.

CRAWFORD: And if I understand correctly, the Seals are fine as long as you're in the boat and they're on the rocks. But the instant anyone puts a foot on the rocks, you get a couple hundred animals moving into the water? They are still very sensitive to the presence of Humans under certain circumstances?

HOPKINS: Yeah. Sea Lions aren't. They're not scared.

CRAWFORD: No, there a very different animal. And just because you brought that up here, have you ever had an experience with a Sea Lion?

HOPKINS: Chasing me? Oh, yeah.

CRAWFORD: In the water as a Pāua diver?

HOPKINS: No. Just on land.

CRAWFORD: On land? Oh, a beachmaster coming after you?

HOPKINS: Yeah. At that time of year.

CRAWFORD: They can move pretty damn fast.

HOPKINS: Oh, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Take me up to the northern part of the Island, please. What regions from here down to Doughboy would there be a lot of Seals? Based on your experience?

HOPKINS: Codfish Island has a lot. It's probably the biggest population.

CRAWFORD: Of the whole Island?

HOPKINS: No, just along here.

CRAWFORD: The northwest part?

HOPKINS: Yeah. And Mason's here, you get a lot of Seals on the outside of those islands. And up in some of these bays in here.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Natural question, for somebody like you. And there are few people who I could ask this question that would have that kind of whole-Island background. People focus on White Pointers now around the Titi Islands, but there are references, there are stories and encounters at different places and at different times around the Island. Do you think it's the case that the White Pointers are going to be distributed wherever the Seals are?

HOPKINS: Probably. 

CRAWFORD: So, Codfish Island. If that's a place with a lot of Seals, would you predict that would be the site of a large aggregation of White Pointers?

HOPKINS: I've always heard the most White Pointers have been seen up around here.

CRAWFORD: Up around the Ruggedys, Codfish, that region?

HOPKINS: Yep. That was always the place known as where all the Sharks were. The most sightings I ever heard of. The first one I ever saw was up here, inside the Bishops. 

CRAWFORD: Did the old-timers say that as well? When you were a young man, was it the case that Codfish, the Ruggedys - that region was ‘sharky’?

HOPKINS: Yep.

CRAWFORD: That was even back then?

HOPKINS: Yep. Mason's and Ruggedy. That was the most sightings I'd heard.

CRAWFORD: Of the whole Island, do you figure?

HOPKINS: I reckon, yeah.

CRAWFORD: And there were people back then fishing all over the Island. It wasn't as if this was uncharted territory. There were still people down there. There were people all over, back in the day.

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: But that side of the Island was known to be especially ‘sharky’. As opposed to other places, which might now be having more White Pointers than back then.

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Have you seen any of these instances where, for no other apparent reason like a fishing boat, the birds are circling?

HOPKINS: Yes, but often that's a Seal with an Octopus. That's the most common one with that. You'll see a Seal with it. They'll just grab a tentacle, and fling it, and pull it off. Of course, the birds are all in getting all of the bits. That's the most common thing that attracts the birds around. Because they just tear them to pieces.

CRAWFORD: So, that could be another explanation for seeing the birds around like that. But obviously, if a White Pointer took a Seal, there would also be bits and pieces of the carcass in the water as well. Do you know of anybody else that has talked about seeing White Pointer attacks out here? On Seals? Or anything else, for that matter?

HOPKINS: No, not that I know of.

CRAWFORD: That's another consistency among the interviews. When you think about it, based on the relative proximity of these Seal colonies, and the amount of time that people spend out and about. Observations of White Pointer attacks on Seals are very rare. I've only got a couple of instances where people have talked about it. ... But I'm going to actually break our conversation right now, because something is happening out on the Bay. Something that has been talked about quite a bit.

HOPKINS: The Shark boat's coming in.

CRAWFORD: Is that Mike Haines?

HOPKINS: Yep.

CRAWFORD: Ok, we have exactly the situation then. And it leads to this issue of following behaviour. Some have told me that people have become reluctant to do exactly what those pleasure boaters are doing right now, off Bathing Beach, here in Halfmoon Bay. Because of their perception of the effects of what's been happening with Shark cage diving out off Edwards Island.

HOPKINS: For the last few years, almost every hunting party I take in now quizzes me about Sharks. Most of them don't bring their wetsuits anymore. They don't go diving anymore. They're afraid of Sharks.

CRAWFORD: So, it's definitely in the public consciousness?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: It's definitely in people's minds. But that includes local people as well. So that when their families come and visit here, people are reluctant to swim in the Bay?

HOPKINS: The dinghy and outboard over there, that's two young local lads. One's got a dinghy with an outboard, and he just tows the other dinghy around the Bay. They were doing that yesterday.

CRAWFORD: Well, this is another one of the things that gets people in this community riled up. Let's jump into it now. One of the principal concerns last year when Peter Scott's boat was operating out of Halfmoon Bay, was that his boat being involved in the Shark cage diving out at Edwards Island, combined with the fact that his was not a fast boat ...

HOPKINS: And a very distinctive sound of that boat. Slow driven, very distinctive sound.

CRAWFORD: And people talked about the White Pointers following his boat back into Halfmoon Bay. Following from Edwards Island into the Bay. Well, we just saw Mike Haines' boat come in.

HOPKINS: Comes in every day.

CRAWFORD: For pickup?

HOPKINS: I don't know why he does it. He's allowed passengers across the Straits. Why doesn't he take them direct, to and from Bluff?

CRAWFORD: He does. I've been out with him, on a situation just like that. Based out of Bluff, returned to Bluff.

HOPKINS: But I don't know why he comes in here every time.

CRAWFORD: Well, it must be a pickup or a drop off.

HOPKINS: It adds another hour onto his day, or more.

CRAWFORD: But if the people that he's chartering on his operation, if they say "And we'd like you to drop us off over on Stewart Island so we can spend a few days there." But it's not the same as Peter last year, who was actually based out of Halfmoon Bay overnight. He was moored overnight here. But once again, you've got a situation where people have very strong feelings about what's happening out at Edwards Island, and the effect on the White Pointers. We're jumping into the third part of this interview, but in my experience - when something happens in real time, you go with it. So here we go. Do you think the White Pointers follow the Shark cage dive boats into Halfmoon Bay?

HOPKINS: Well, I haven't seen it. But I've heard other people say they've seen Sharks in here. That have followed the boats in.

CRAWFORD: How do we know, under those circumstances, that the White Pointers followed the boats? It's one thing to have seen the Sharks in the Bay ...

HOPKINS: Because the Sharks have appeared, as the boats appeared in the Bay.

CRAWFORD: So, in proximity in time and place?

HOPKINS: Particularly in Golden Bay, well the Inlet. Peter probably told you about that one.

CRAWFORD: Well, different people have told me different versions of stories from there. But sticking with Halfmoon Bay for just a minute, it's an open embayment to Foveaux Strait. White Pointers could come in or out freely. But when you get White Pointers in proximity in space and time ...

HOPKINS: Specifically, when those boats come in.

CRAWFORD: Do you recall specifically one of those times that happened? When there was proximity of White Pointers with one of the Shark cage dive boats in Halfmoon Bay?

HOPKINS: Not personally.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember hearing from other people?

HOPKINS: Last year. It was in by the wharf, I think.

CRAWFORD: Ok. And remember what I said, it's not just your lived experience or the previous generations, it's also what you've heard from other contemporaries.

HOPKINS: Believe nothing you hear, and half you see. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: But that's the nature of this process, isn't it? The purpose of going through asking and answering questions is to determine if we can figure out what has happened. And there are some things that get told differently when people know that somebody like me is listening very closely, and that I will be trying to reconcile across all of the other people that share their perspectives on what happened. And everybody sees things, even the same things, from their own different perspectives.

HOPKINS: Often, on Boxing Day after Christmas, we grab a heap of friends, and we'll go up Paterson Inlet, if the weather's nice. You know, today would be a perfect day. And we often go to the back of the Neck, there is a long beach. About three or four years ago, I had the job of lifting all the Shark recording floats with Clinton [Duffy].

CRAWFORD: The hydroacoustic receivers?

HOPKINS: Yeah. So, we were all over the place looking for these. And it turned out that when we lifted the one at the Neck ... we probably had ten or fifteen people with us. It's very shallow water in there. There were seven boats there that day. Adults and children swimming, everyone's barbecuing and drinking. Having a good time. And we lifted the float off the rocks there, you could see it from where we were. There had been a large female Shark swim past the day after Boxing Day, the twenty-seventh, and then back on the first of January. We didn't know she was there. But she was there. Everyone swimming. She didn't come in and see what the commotion was. And yet there was no recordings from the buoy up in Big Glory. Which is interesting, I thought.

CRAWFORD: That is very interesting. There's no sampling design that's going to capture everything. These are always going to be point observations in space and time. Because in part, there's always a limitation on the number of receivers that can be deployed. And what their sensitivity is, in terms of range. But right off the bat, that story reveals once again that in many circumstances these White Pointers can be close by, and us know nothing of it. And even with that kind of contribution from the Science knowledge system ... Science can contribute a lot, but Science tends to know a lot about a fairly narrow piece of the pie. That story you just told is a perfect example of how one knowledge system can contribute to the other.

HOPKINS: No one would have ever thought that these Sharks would have travelled to Tonga, or wherever the satellite tags indicated.

CRAWFORD: And I know in my heart that any scientist, like Clinton or Malcolm, when they read through these interviews, they're going to pick up on stories and events and ideas they simply could not have known about. Because they don't spend the amount of time on the water that guys like you do.

HOPKINS: When we lifted the float out at Edwards, there had been a Shark swim past - I think it was twenty minutes or thirty minutes before we lifted it. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: I didn't want to forget about the natural curiosity of these White Pointers. When you told the story from twenty years ago, about picking up Fred and his co-worker over on the east side of the Island. They weren't fishing or anything, they were just in the dinghy. And there was a White Pointer circling around them.

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Some people have described the curiosity of these White Pointers ... I've heard from some people, that in the old days there was kind of a general rule of thumb that if White Pointers came into the Bays, that there would be action taken to remove them.

HOPKINS: There was a hunting party told me they saw a White Pointer down in here too. 

CRAWFORD: Port Pegasus?

HOPKINS: Yep. Albion Inlet. But I'm always a bit sceptical of some of the hunting party stories, because there are a lot of Sevengill Sharks as well. There's lots of them up in *Cooks Arm here, and there's lots of them in *Heron River. Quite a few of the hunting parties tell me that they're Thresher Sharks, but they're not. Because the Sevengiller has a long tip on the tail. Really long, like a Thresher. Not to the same extent, but they think they're Threshers because they've got a long tip.

CRAWFORD: Well, I hear there's a lot of Sevengillers in Paterson Inlet more recently, as well.

HOPKINS: They seem to be getting thicker recently as well.

CRAWFORD: And they also interact with Humans. For example, the boarders on the other side of Foveaux Strait, they talk about getting bumped on a regular basis by Sevengillers in some places.

HOPKINS: Well, it's only in the last few years that I've heard of them bumping people. There was one at the beaches, was it Riverton or Waikawa somewhere? There was one Pāua diver here, Zane Smith, he got bitten. He went back to the dinghy, got a knife and went and killed it. There was a DOC woman up in Fiordland got bitten on the head. Her partner chased it off.

CRAWFORD: I think maybe she was with Kina Scollay. I saw some video he posted on that. In terms of the Pāua divers here on the Island, you know these guys here very well. For the divers that you know and trust, have they talked about interactions with White Pointers?

HOPKINS: No, it's more Seals.

CRAWFORD: Seals and Sea Lions?

HOPKINS: Yeah. Because there's the occasional Pāua diver been bitten. Not many, one or two. Very seldom. There's often just an odd aggressive Seal or Sea Lion. The divers will just scoot out of the water and go somewhere else.

CRAWFORD: Right. But not so much the interaction with the White Pointers? As far as you know?

HOPKINS: Not me, personally.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's get back to the curiosity of these White Pointers. For sixty-two years you've been here on Stewart Island. Was it the case when you were growing up, that the typical response to White Pointers entering the Bays was to remove them?

HOPKINS: No. The only person I know who specifically fished for Sharks in the Bay, was Joe Cave. He would put a Shark net out, when there was one seen.

CRAWFORD: But prior to that, were there not people who would go out if there was a White Pointer in Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay, and go out and try to kill it?

HOPKINS: Not that I know of. I remember there was one, Brian Hamilton, who used to do all sorts of outrageous things. He'd have a Shark hook they used to hang on a point out in the Bay somewhere.

CRAWFORD: But that wasn't a regular sort of thing?

HOPKINS: No, no.

CRAWFORD: It wasn't the community saying "Go out there, and remove that Shark." Or anything like that?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: I interviewed Joe Cave as well. When he was here on the Island, and he had those White Pointer setnets made up, what do you reckon was the motivation behind that? And how did it match with the community's thinking?

HOPKINS: I don't know. It was just a curiosity I think, more than anything.

CRAWFORD: So, to your knowledge, it wasn't necessarily motivated by the communities need to protect the beaches?

HOPKINS: Might've been.

CRAWFORD: For the years that those nets were fished for White Pointers, up to the year that they received protection, do you remember roughly how many White Pointers might've come out of those nets?

HOPKINS: They'd usually end up with one or two Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Per year?

HOPKINS: Whenever he set them. And it was only really when one was seen that he put a Shark net out.

CRAWFORD: Yes, and that's an important thing. Remember when we talked about the flights over the Strait? I've got several different versions of those stories. The interesting thing is that he wasn't even here when his nets caught those two White Pointers that were hung up at the wharf. It was his gear, but he was up in Wanaka I think at the time. Do you remember that incident, when the two White Pointers were caught, and brought to the wharf? Were you around at that time?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember what triggered the nets to go out into the water that particular time?

HOPKINS: Not particularly, no.

CRAWFORD: Were you there when the White Pointers were brought in?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What do you remember about what happened then? Do you remember anything about them being strung up?

HOPKINS: They had a crane on the boat. I don't know if they were hung on the boat, or even on the wharf. I'm not sure.

CRAWFORD: But then somebody cut the animals open. Were you there when they cut them open?

HOPKINS: I don't member that, no.

CRAWFORD: You remember hearing what was inside their guts?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: It was Cod frames.

HOPKINS: That's like I said, whenever any were opened up there were Cod frames in them.

CRAWFORD: But in this particular instance, I don't know what it was about that incident, it is one of the most talked about stories. Maybe for a bunch of different reasons, but when people saw the Cod frames ... I'm presuming, based on what you said, and you would know perhaps better than most, that wasn't the first time a White Pointer was cut open with Cod frames.

HOPKINS: Probably not.

CRAWFORD: Well, that event seems to have embedded itself in the community's collective consciousness. Then people started to think, "These Sharks are clearly not acting as apex predators all the time." That they were scavenging, and that White Pointers were not likely going to be out there finding Cod frames, unless it was Humans who put the Cod frames in the water in the first place. And that started a whole branch of this discussion that perhaps we Humans have been affecting these animals, prior to the Shark cage diving, in ways we weren't necessarily recognizing.

HOPKINS: It's easier to catch a Cod frame, than a Seal. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: And this brings in Dead Man's Beach. I'm trying to get a sense of the history of how fish offal in general, Cod frames in particular, were dispensed with. And potentially what their effects could have been on the White Pointers, in terms of drawing the animals in closer to Horseshoe and Halfmoon Bays.

HOPKINS: Well, I'm sure they have. I've only ever heard of Cod frames being in the Sharks.

CRAWFORD: You've never heard of any White Pointers being cut open with anything but Cod frames? No other records of Seal pups, or bits and pieces?

HOPKINS: No. 

CRAWFORD: Remember way back at the beginning of the interview, or close to the beginning, you made the statement "They're here because of the food."

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Well, in this case, the food is Cod frames. And it's quite possible that our Human actions might be having an effect on the distribution and abundance of the White Pointers.

HOPKINS: That's always the cage dive operator's argument. "Well, you're going to have to stop all the Cod fishermen from dumping their waste over the side." If they're not allowed to dump offal, why should the Cod fishermen be allowed to?

CRAWFORD: It is definitely an issue that comes up in their interviews. From you, what I was hoping to get was a sense of ... back from all of your time, and even before then, the Stewart Island fishing fleet has fished for Cod. But things like the nature of the boats, and the speed with which they travel, those types of things change over the years with regards to cleaning the fish and dumping the offal. Back in the day, when you were a younger guy, was it the case that people would be dumping their Cod frames on the way back to port? Or were there particular stations, like Dead Man's or someplace else, where they would typically clean their fish and dump their offal?

HOPKINS: Just depends on how busy you are. Because whenever I was Codding, we used to be able to keep up pretty much through the day. Cleaning the fish and chilling it.

CRAWFORD: As they were coming in?

HOPKINS: Yeah. And they would only have a little bit to do at the end of the day. But some of the single-handed people, can't keep up. They're the ones that would sit around at the mouth of the Bay, cleaning.

CRAWFORD: And Dead Man's seems to be a particular place ...

HOPKINS: There's a mooring in there. People tie off.

CRAWFORD: Maybe a little bit over by Ackers Point as well?

HOPKINS: Yep. The little bay this side of it. There's a mooring in there too.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen Sharks, White Pointers in particular, feeding off frames or circling around boats while they were cleaning?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: In all of the time that you have spent fishing, especially including Cod fishing, have you ever had White Pointers following your boat when you were cleaning?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember hearing anybody talk about White Pointer following behaviour, down at the Southwest corner when you were cleaning fish there? Anything like that?

HOPKINS: No. But we had one boat on the radio, it would be three or four years ago, a big Bluff boat. It stopped in the lee of Bench Island, to clean up the boat, and the fishing gear. And it was throwing a bit of fish - just the last bit, over the side.

CRAWFORD: It was a Codpotter?

HOPKINS: Yep. And he had three Sharks hanging around him.

CRAWFORD: Not necessarily surprising, given the fact that he was releasing offal off in the Titi Islands. But here's where I'm going to link it back to the possibility of following behaviour. Is there anything in your memory, or knowledge of what other people have told you, that these White Pointers would follow the fishing boats - that they would associate the fishing boats with the Cod frames, and that they would follow the fishing boats either to a cleaning station, or away from a cleaning station? Did you ever have any indication that that type of following behaviour was happening with the newer, bigger boats?

HOPKINS: No, I'd never heard of it before. I'd never heard of any specific cases of Sharks following boats, until the last few years. The only other stories were the one like Joe Cave catching them, and the Sharks were full of Cod frames. So, you just assume that's why they were here.

CRAWFORD: Also gets back to that incident, which was notable because there were at least two if not three White Pointers in the same place at the same time. And that gets back to this idea that these White Pointers could be moving around in groups. Some people have talked about the possibility of White Pointers forming packs and working together in that kind of social way. Have you ever heard anything about that?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: Alright. We're looking out your window right across to Bathing Beach. Do you remember the opening of the swimming pool, and the motivation for it? I'm told that back in the day, swimming classes were part of the school curriculum. That they would go to  Bathing Beach for those swimming classes.

HOPKINS: Back in my day.

CRAWFORD: So, you and the other kids learned how to swim there. Do you remember what the motivation was for raising the funds, and construction of the pool?

HOPKINS: I'm not sure. There was actually four of us did the trip from *Cape Reinga to Stewart Island, raising money for it.

CRAWFORD: So, as a kid, you were involved. Was building the pool just the thing to do? Or was it in response in any way to safety concerns regarding swimming?

HOPKINS: Well, it was to provide safe and warmer water. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: I'm interested to hear that you were directly involved, as a kid, in the process.

HOPKINS: It was my Father and my Cousins.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But would it be fair to say that it was not primarily driven by fears of White Pointers?

HOPKINS: I don't think so.

CRAWFORD: Good. Thank you for clarifying.

HOPKINS: We didn't see Sharks in those days. We always knew they were out there in the water, but people didn't seem to have close encounters.

CRAWFORD: That seems to be a more recent thing?

HOPKINS: Yeah. When we were swimming, we weren't too far offshore, or in deeper water. We usually used to go to Bathing Beach or Golden Bay, which is another enclosed little bay. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's talk about the Halfmoon Bay fisherman's co-op, and the processing facility, at the wharf, the shed. Joe Cave said that many years ago, if I remember correctly, he said that he and maybe Helen tried to get a bylaw passed saying something about not bringing fish waste into the Bay. But depending on the nature of the processing, there's still going to be the potential for a berley trail from the discharge. And it's essentially the same type of berley trail used by DOC when they were trying to attract White Pointers for tagging, and by the Shark cage dive operators. What are your thoughts about that?

HOPKINS: I think that the bait the Shark boats use is Tuna.

CRAWFORD: Yes, it is. Minced Tuna.

HOPKINS: It's an unfamiliar fish down here. You don't really get Tuna here. But it seems to be by far the most preferred attractant for them. Just the oil, it's a different food from the natural food here. It's obviously far more attractive to them than Cod frames, I suspect.

CRAWFORD: Yes. And in that sense then, it's probably a good choice as an attractant. I mean, if there has to be berley for the operation. 

HOPKINS: You hang a Cod frame over the side next to a piece of Tuna, they'll go straight for the Tuna.

CRAWFORD: Some people have said, these White Pointers are not silly. They are wired with all sorts of detection devices, they know their way around. To what extent they are intelligent, and able to discriminate and make associations, is obviously a key uncertainty we'll talk about shortly. Let's go back over to Big Glory for a second. Even under normal circumstances, all fish farm operations have mortalities they have to dispense with. Do you have any recollection, or did you know anything about what the aquaculture operations in Big Glory did with their morts? Their dead fish?

HOPKINS: Dumped them.

CRAWFORD: Do you know where?

HOPKINS: South of Bench Island.

CRAWFORD: And I'm told that at one point in time they dumped just off of Ulva Island in Paterson Inlet?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And there had been concerns about that.

HOPKINS: They've hired me to do that. And I'm surprised that they were allowed to do it. We went out, not far past Ulva, as we just steamed along a line and threw morts over the side.

CRAWFORD: And yet, rules did change over time. My understanding is that the practice of bringing the morts outside of Paterson Inlet ...

HOPKINS: Yeah, well they take them out south of Bench Island. When I was there, we steamed through there, there was a greasy slick on the water. You can always tell when they've just been there, because there's an oily slick on the water, from the fish oil.

CRAWFORD: Well, that's an important observation.

HOPKINS: And there's lots of birds around.

CRAWFORD: That's exactly where I was going to. So, the birds are there. In the instances when you have been around the locations where the fish farm morts were dumped, did you ever see any Sharks of any kind? In that slick? Obviously, you might not have seen them from the surface.

HOPKINS: No. Last year was the main year I've seen it. Because we've carried hunting parties at similar times each day, and I've seen the boat there dumping them. But often, we'll go there and it's just a quite a big oily slick - so you know they've been there. And there's a lot of birds around.

CRAWFORD: Last question for this part. Have you noticed that there are people coming around the Titi Islands now for their White Pointer 'nature moment'? I mean, you have run charter operations for a long time. You said before that you get people who are aware, and more and more asking for opportunities to see the White Pointers. When did that really start to pick up?

HOPKINS: Oh, just the last three or four years. We used to do regular fishing charters, but you'd be sitting around waiting on more than just two people to take out. Unless you have half a dozen people minimum, it's just not financially viable. So, a few years ago we just stopped doing it unless you had a group of eight to ten people minimum. We just flip them over to the other operators. So, we haven't really done that many.

CRAWFORD: But over the past decade or so, I'm hearing that there are so many more people from the other side of Foveaux Strait boating through those waters, from Bluff to here, or to go on a boating trip, or fishing trip. But I'm also hearing about people independently boating to have a nature moment with the White Pointers among the Titi Islands. They don't want to go in a cage, but they want to go over there, they want to see one of these White Pointers. Some people have been talking about day-trippers who will go out and feed the Sharks. Exactly the thing that we're just about to get into, which is of greatest concern about things affecting the White Pointers' behaviour. Have you also seen more day-trip boats in and among the Islands over the past decade?

HOPKINS: I think it's more just a proliferation of private boats. There's just more a proliferation of private boats. 

CRAWFORD: Just in general?

HOPKINS: Yeah. There's more and more boats using the ramps in Bluff. At the start of Oyster season, it's just incredible. The big tandem trailers and four-wheel-drives, You get fifty or sixty at each ramp. I've seen it. You didn't see that ten years ago.

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: Tell me about the first time you saw a White Pointer in the wild.

HOPKINS: We had a fishing party from Bluff up at the Bishops. Top of the Island. This is back, that would be ... well, I had the Arun. And all the lines kept tangling up, and we kept losing gear.

CRAWFORD: You were linefishing?

HOPKINS: Fishing rods. They had their own gear. And I leaned over the side to try and untangle these lines. And all of a sudden, this great Shark swum past. Just underneath where I was.

CRAWFORD: So, it didn't break the water?

HOPKINS: No, just under the surface. And that's what was causing all the strife. It was tangling all the lines up, and stealing the fish. That would have been probably mid-80s. That was the first one I actually saw, other than the ones that were hanging up on the wharf.

CRAWFORD: Right. And just to put that into context ... how many White Pointers would you have seen at the wharf, roughly?

HOPKINS: You'd say lots. It might have been eight or ten.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was the first time you'd actually seen a White Pointer in the wild. You've been on or around the water all your life, you've seen different things. If I asked you to roughly gauge the size of that animal, what might you say?

HOPKINS: Hard to say. Twelve foot, I think.

CRAWFORD: What time of year was this? If it was a fishing charter from Bluff, would it have been holiday time?

HOPKINS: It would've been probably March, I think.

CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense]. When you saw that animal swim under the boat ...

HOPKINS: It had obviously been there for a while. Because on one side of the boat they kept losing their gear, and next all the lines were tangled up. So, it had obviously got a line, and gone around

CRAWFORD: This animal was definitely showing interest. Did you have any feeling that there was any kind of attitude? Did the animal ever pull on the rudder, bump the boat, come out of the water? Anything like that?

HOPKINS: No. We just shifted someplace else, a couple of miles away.

CRAWFORD: Prior to any effects of cage dive operations ... like your first experience with the White Pointer at the Bishops, till about 2007 ... for that twenty years, how many White Pointers would you have seen in the wild, personally, through that period of time?

HOPKINS: None. Other than that one at the Bishops.

CRAWFORD: Ok. From the time the cage dive operations began about eight years ago, to the present, have you seen any White Pointers in the wild?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Roughly how many?

HOPKINS: Five, I think. Oh, six, seven, eight ...

CRAWFORD: Ok, we might get up to ten?

HOPKINS: It's probably close to ten. Because if you count the ferry, it used to call in there where the cage divers were. Show the passengers.

CRAWFORD: Oh yeah? I hadn't heard about that before. Let's consider those first. When you were Skippering, or working on the ferry ...

HOPKINS: No, no. I had some friends out.

CRAWFORD: Because I've heard that the ferry used to talk about the White Pointers to the passengers, on the run across the Strait. But they don't do that anymore.

HOPKINS: Yes, they do.

CRAWFORD: Oh, ok. Just not on the trips I've been on. 

HOPKINS: The midday trip, they call past the Island. A few years ago, I had a call from one of the cruise ships. They wanted to go out and catch some Blue Cod ... this was mainly the crew. Two passengers, but the rest were just crew. They wanted to catch some Cod, and see some White Pointers. It was a beautiful day, picked them up off the ship, we went out there, and I took out quite a bit of offal. We tipped all of this offal over the side, and not a sight of a Shark. This was at Edwards Island. Then we just moved along a bit and went fishing. This was the Chief Engineer off the boat, he said "I think there's something here." And it was cruising straight up at him. Here's the head. Here's the dorsal fin. [shows image from cell phone] This was a big Shark. The other was a small one, it was about 12 feet, I suppose. But it was a bit wary, because here's the big one see? It was a big female. She would have been about 15, 16 feet. She just cruised in. So, the passengers got what they wanted, and I was very surprised! [laughs]

CRAWFORD: What year was this?

HOPKINS: Oh, I suppose three years ago?

CRAWFORD: 2012?

HOPKINS: Yeah, about that.

CRAWFORD: What time of year was it?

HOPKINS: January, February.

CRAWFORD: And this was off the east shore, or the west shore, of Edwards?

HOPKINS: Off the west corner of Edwards.

CRAWFORD: How many different animals do you reckon came to your boat?

HOPKINS: Just two this time.

CRAWFORD: And you said you were surprised by that? How long did it take, roughly, from the time you dumped the offal till the time you saw the first Shark?

HOPKINS: Well, they didn't come near us with the offal. It wasn't until we started fishing. As soon as they detected fish struggling on the line, they were straight there.

CRAWFORD: But you had tried offal first?

HOPKINS: Yeah. It didn't work.

CRAWFORD: How long did you wait?

HOPKINS: Oh, half an hour. Right while the Shark boat was going.

CRAWFORD: Nothing. Then you rigged up for line fishing. Now, it's impossible to say, because you had previously put the offal out. So, there could have been a delay factor.

HOPKINS: No, we moved to a different location.

CRAWFORD: Ok.

HOPKINS: That was Ty took this photo, on the Aurora. We had a school party out. And this Shark just appeared from under the boat.

CRAWFORD: With or without fishing lines in the water?

HOPKINS: With.

CRAWFORD: So, you go out there, at that time of year ...

HOPKINS: Well, we've always gone out there fishing. We've never seen a Shark. It's only in the last few years. And I've been there, twice since - not taking people out chartering, just friends. Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever been out there, without fishing though?

HOPKINS: No. No reason to go there.

CRAWFORD: No, I know. But you can see what I'm getting at. To figure out the role of having that fish on a line, relative to the Sharks behaviour ...

HOPKINS: It's attracting it. It's picking up the distress signals of the fish.

CRAWFORD: Right. But to be more confident, you have to have some observations where the boat was out there, but with no fishing going on. To know whether or not it was the boat that was receiving the White Pointer's attention, or if it was the action of a fish on a line that was receiving the Shark's attention. You see what I mean?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen anything that you would have thought was social behaviour among White Pointers? Among two or more White Pointers?

HOPKINS: When we took those photos I showed you, we got the impression that the smaller of the two Sharks, which was a male apparently, because there was a woman that studies Sharks who was on the boat - as well as the Lecturer. That smaller Shark seemed quite wary. Each time the big one came around, that little one was out of sight - gone. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You said you were up to about ten animals since the cage diving operations had started. Let's take out of that total then, over the past couple of years, subtract the number of White Pointers you've seen immediately around Edwards Island. While you were fishing there, like you just showed me on your iPhone. Would that be about half of the animals you've seen in total? About five? Or most of them?

HOPKINS: All of them. They're the ones that I've seen. When the Shark boats were there, with bait hanging up, and the Sharks out of the water trying to get the bait. Prior to them being told they weren't allowed to do that.

CRAWFORD: Prior to the permits coming out last year?

HOPKINS: I suppose it was summer two years ago.

CRAWFORD: The important thing for this discussion is that, other than the White Pointer you saw on the fishing trip out to the Bishops, the only place you've ever seen White Pointers has been at Edwards Island.  And that's all been on fishing trips out there over the last four years?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: And it's always been either, observation of White Pointers responding to bait being deployed by the Shark cage operation, or they're showing up in proximity to a boat with line fishermen?

HOPKINS: We stopped here one day ...

CRAWFORD: Bench Island?

HOPKINS: Yeah. At the Haystacks, the two islands there. It was a hunting party I was bringing up. I don't usually do it, but they pestered me to take them fishing, because they had a couple of hours. It was just a small party, just bring them here, put them on the ferry. "Can we go fishing for half an hour?" I hate doing it, because the boat's all cluttered up with all their gear and boats. So, we started fishing, and they're catching quite a few fish, Trumpeter and Blue Cod. Right in close to the rocks. They're just filleting, and the next thing you know, just out of the corner of my eye, I noticed a Mollymawk disappear right under the water. A Shark came up and grabbed it and took it. And one of my Crew ... I'm laughing at a video of it, and he saw one do that not long after it. And I've heard of two or three people ...

CRAWFORD: As have I.

HOPKINS: Often, if we're out fishing, you'll have forty or fifty Mollymawks around, easy. All of a sudden, they'll take off. And you always assume it's a Shark. That's because they know the Shark will eat them.

CRAWFORD: In some of the instances I've heard, the White Pointer came up in a breach. And it seems to me that's an indication that in the Shark's mind, it was a strike. This wasn't a passing interest. Because if they commit to something like that - it's energetic, and it's potentially risky. In other cases, it's more subdued.

HOPKINS: They're hungry.

CRAWFORD: They're hungry, or they just can't help themselves.

HOPKINS: KFC. Kentucky fried chicken. [both chuckle]

CRAWFORD: And in some of the interviews, I've heard about Mollymawks getting taken, and then spat out. Which is a strong indication ... you know, these animals are not perfect predators.

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: One possibility is that it was a juvenile that didn't know it didn't want it. It's also possible that it was a case of mistaken identity. The perhaps it was an animal that even knew it didn't like Mollymawks, but thought it was something else. But if it saw a shadow on the surface, maybe it thought it was a Seal pup or something else. People have seen White Pointers interacting with the Mollymawks that way. But you've been here for a long time. Were there histories, or stories, of Mollymawks getting gulped by White Pointers?

HOPKINS: I'd never heard of it.

CRAWFORD: And I think you probably would have, if it had happened back in the day. More recently, somebody said when the White Pointers are out there doing their thing, when there's a hit you'll see birds circling around, because there's bits and pieces of the prey. Have you seen any evidence, direct or indirect, that you think was a White Pointer hit on a Seal? Or a hit on anything else for that matter? Have you seen any White Pointers at least partially breaching in what you thought was a strike?

HOPKINS: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Getting back to your individual experience, you reckoned that you had seen about ten White Pointers in the wild, after Shark cage diving had started up. The majority of those, or all of those, were at Edwards Island?

HOPKINS: All, other than the one at the Haystacks.

CRAWFORD: So, nine at Edwards. And Haystacks is on the edge of Bench Island?

HOPKINS: Yes. I did see one when we were fishing down at the Little Reef, which is just down here. Weka Reef.

CRAWFORD: That was a Level 1 observation? The animal wasn't interacting with you at all?

HOPKINS: Well, he hooked up. He took a line, but the line just broke. Had it right close to the boat, and it broke off.

CRAWFORD: So, every single one of your interactions was during linefishing?

HOPKINS: Yes.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: If you had to guess, from mid-80s to the start of Shark dive operations - say 2007 ...

HOPKINS: Is it that long ago?

CRAWFORD: Yeah.

HOPKINS: We had Lou Sanson up here, the head of DOC ...

CRAWFORD: Yes, I know of him.

HOPKINS: He's a good friend of ours, has been for years. He said "Who do you reckon started off the Shark cage operations?" I said "You did!" [laughs] "What do you mean?" I said "Well, it was when they had the DOC boat out there." Because before the Shark became protected, they had the DOC boat out there, with half a cow hanging over the side, trying to gauge how many animals there were, and how big they were.

CRAWFORD: Yes.

HOPKINS: They didn't know there were that many Sharks around till DOC started doing that.

CRAWFORD: Do you recall the original DOC work that was being done? Did you see it, or did you hear about it?

HOPKINS: Well, it was common knowledge what they were doing.

CRAWFORD: Did you see it, you personally?

HOPKINS: No. My daughter worked for DOC at the time. She's got a video of this Shark come out and biting the boat on the stern. Biting the landing on the stern. That did the rounds, that video.

CRAWFORD: But there are very few people who actually remember that the DOC guys were doing their thing with the Sharks first. So, Clinton Duffy from DOC, and Malcom Francis from NIWA. And I think it surprised them, from what I've heard ...

HOPKINS: They couldn't believe how many Sharks were here.

CRAWFORD: Yeah. And it gets back to that theme that I was trying to share with you before ... Remember that whole thing about Level 1 through Level 4? Well, Level 1 is us seeing them. But there's also a Level 0 -  is them seeing us, and us not seeing them.

HOPKINS: Oh, yeah.

CRAWFORD: And that seems to have come up in these interviews over and over again. And especially true in places like Paterson Inlet, where it gets more shallow, they may be hugging the bottom even more. But that's a different discussion. So, let's say eight years ago is when the cage dive operations started. The actual interactions with the White Pointers around the Titi Islands. Yes, it started off with the DOC research project. But it was only about one year later when Peter Scott started up his operation. He started with some exploratory work, but ended up going to Edwards Island as a natural decision. The DOC permits didn't even come in until the beginning of last year. So, it was not an activity that required a permit, so none was issued, from 2007 till last year. Getting back to interactions, what have you heard from other people?

HOPKINS: It was my dinghy that people had hired that got bitten.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Please tell me what you heard - the whole story. First of all, when was this?

HOPKINS: Summer before this. A year ago.

CRAWFORD: 2014.

HOPKINS: About the new year. The same people come and hire a dinghy off me each year. Dead Man's Beach, just out there.

CRAWFORD: It was a family?

HOPKINS: Two adults, three children.

CRAWFORD: You said they would regularly hire a dinghy from you, just to go out into Halfmoon Bay?

HOPKINS: Probably for the last three or four years now.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What happened two years ago?

HOPKINS: They were fishing away merrily. Just at the point out there, this side of Dead Man's Beach. And all of a sudden, a Shark appeared, and it was stealing the Cod off their lines. So, they stopped fishing. And the Shark just carried on going round and round the dinghy. And then, cruised in, rolled on its side, and bit the dinghy on the bow. It had scratch marks down the dinghy, when they brought it back - on the bow. So next time they came here, they wanted to hire a Shark-proof dinghy off me. [both laugh] They didn't want the inflatable. But I've got a small StabiCraft, so I hired that. They must've felt a little bit safer. But when you look at those Sharks leaping out of the water, they'll take you out of a dinghy with no trouble.

CRAWFORD: No question. We're talking a tonne of flesh moving at high speed. Do you have pictures of the scrape marks on the bow?

HOPKINS: Nah, I didn't worry about it.

CRAWFORD: Did they take pictures?

HOPKINS: No, I don't think so. I mean, I saw the scrapes on the bow.

CRAWFORD: In one version of this story, I heard ... and this might actually be two different incidences, I heard that they went out to the Titi Islands. But that's not as you described it in this case. It was just this side of Dead Man's?

HOPKINS: Yep. Well, it's only a little dinghy. It's only four metres. [shows picture on phone] This was John Scott's dinghy.

CRAWFORD: This was the infamous shot ...

HOPKINS: That was about Discovery Week.

CRAWFORD: Yes, that showed up in the news as an 'attack'.

HOPKINS: Yeah, I just collected that off the news.

CRAWFORD: So, was it a similar boat to this?

HOPKINS: Mine's aluminium. That's just a plastic boat.

CRAWFORD: Right. I mean this was not a very smart thing to do. That's an impressive shot, in terms of the size of the White Pointer, and the fact that it's full frontal with mouth open, teeth glaring. But it's not necessarily the case this was any form of an 'attack'. It's not necessarily a Level 4. This image is within the realm of that kind of curious mouthing behaviour we were talking about. But when you're in an inflatable boat, this can go from Level 3 to Level 4 in a hurry.

HOPKINS: It's terrifying. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: The dinghy you had rented to the family was aluminum?

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And the length of that dinghy?

HOPKINS: 4 metres.

CRAWFORD: Yeah, that's nothing.

HOPKINS: I said to them the next day, they were telling me about it down at the wharf. And I said to the kids "You're not going fishing today?" The kids didn't want to go.

CRAWFORD: No, I can imagine.

HOPKINS: I've never heard of a dinghy... actually, I have. Now that I think of it. Fred from DOC, do you know him? Fred Dobbins?

CRAWFORD: I know of him.

HOPKINS: This was probably nearly twenty years ago. I dropped him and Sandra King off, way down at *Big Kuri.

CRAWFORD: Southwest of Lords River?

HOPKINS: Up in this bay here. I was taking a party down to Pegasus, while I dropped him off in here. They were doing a Penguin count. And I just picked them up, they were waiting for me out in the mouth of the bay when I came past. And Fred said "I'm glad you turned up. Because there was a White Pointer swimming around the dinghy for the last half hour. Just going round and round the dinghy."

CRAWFORD: That's an important story. Because there's a distinction ...

HOPKINS: He wasn't fishing. He was just sitting in the dinghy.

CRAWFORD: That's what I mean. It was just a straight boat. It was just curiosity. But it's important for at least two different reasons. First, circling is clearly Level 3 behaviour. There is something that the animal was attracted to. The fact that the family out at Dead Man's Point was fishing, having that extra cue, even if it wasn't simply a boat - then you have additional factors that can trigger curiosity. You've got these contributing factors. On top of the possibility that White Pointer abundance is maybe going up. And then, in addition to all of those things, we've got a potential for changing behaviour of the White Pointers themselves. If the animals that are out at Edwards Island have their behaviour modified, and then moved to other locations. But this story with Fred was twenty years ago. So, these types of things can and do happen without any Shark cage diving.

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What, is anything, have you heard specifically about White Pointers following boats in this region?

HOPKINS. I've heard of quite a few Shark sightings in Golden Bay following the Argo.

CRAWFORD: What did you hear about that?

HOPKINS: Easterly weather, instead of lying in Halfmoon Bay - it gets quite rolly in here during an easterly - so they used to go over to Golden Bay. And this one morning, I don't know if it was one of the water-taxi operators or who saw it, but here's the Argo leaving the Golden Bay wharf and there's a fin following along behind him. This was going out to Jacky Lee. Early in the morning.

CRAWFORD: Not coming in from the Titi Islands, but departing to?

HOPKINS: Yes. So, it's probably followed him in here the night before, hung around, and then headed out. And I've heard the same story from Thule Wharf. I don't know if it was the same ...

CRAWFORD: Where's that?

HOPKINS: You've got Golden Bay, then Watercress, and then Thule - there's a small wharf there, at the end of the road. So, I don't know if that was the same story. It sounded like two separate stories, that people had seen the fin following the boat out. And that was about the time that Peter had his close encounter when he was rowing out to his boat. Which was about the same time that kayaks and paddle boards were operating at Watercress there. There were six or eight people in these kayaks, learning ...

CRAWFORD: Whoa, whoa. You just mentioned two different and potentially important things. Tell me about Peter's incident first please. When was this?

HOPKINS: Oh, he told Maureen on the radio ...

CRAWFORD: This was Peter Scott??

HOPKINS: No, Peter Tait. He was rowing out to his boat, and the next thing here's this Shark, here's the fin behind him.

CRAWFORD: Where?

HOPKINS: Golden Bay. In that area.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That's the first incident, now what happened with the kayakers?

HOPKINS: There used to be tourist operators here, rented kayaks out. The last time it operated, there was a young couple here running it. And they were teaching these people to kayak, they were just getting along on paddle boards talking to the ones in the kayaks. Someone in a kayak looked around, and here was this fin following them all in the water.

CRAWFORD: When was that?

HOPKINS: Oh, it's probably three years ago now.

CRAWFORD: And where?

HOPKINS: Watercress, which is the next little beach around from Golden Bay. There's a heap of boat sheds there, and a launch and ramp. Which was probably about the same time that the Argo went up, and he spent most of the day up in Big Glory, in the mouth of Big Glory. They said they were just testing their gear and doing something. It was the next day that the Salmon Farm lost about 20,000 fish, because a Shark tore a hole in one of their nets. That was more than a coincidence. And Scott's been denying that the Sharks follow him around. Which is interesting, because that recorder float we had lifted hadn't recorded any in Big Glory. And you'd think that would be the most logical place for Sharks to go. They would sense that mass of fish, and go up there. But they didn't. Or they weren't recorded. 

CRAWFORD: Well, the recorders would only report for White Pointers with the hydroacoustic tags on them. And there are actually reports of White Pointers in Big Glory, as there are reports of White Pointers off of Ulva Island. As a matter fact, there are several stories of White Pointers in Paterson Inlet, more so than people think. 

HOPKINS: It would be last summer, one of those fancy boats from Auckland came down here on holiday. With the big flying bridge, and everything. For some reason, they were in an inflatable, out there by Jacky Lee. This was the height of the Shark season. I'm surprised this wasn't in the paper. I mean, I just heard about it. But these people, they started pulling the inflatable back up onto their boat. This Shark came up and chomped on their inflatable. Just flattened it, tore it to bits.

CRAWFORD: There is another set of stories that comes up in different ways - White Pointers having this fascination with things that are floating on the surface. I've heard from people here on the Island that back in the day, people use to put newspapers out to bring a White Pointer close to the boat in order to shoot it.

HOPKINS: It would come up to read the paper. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Do you remember ever hearing those kinds of stories?

HOPKINS: No.

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

 CRAWFORD: Do you think the Shark cage dive operations have an important and lasting effect on the White Pointers?

HOPKINS: Well, I've never heard of as many close encounters with people as there are now. Far more than there ever used to be. You just never heard of it. People would seldom ever see a Shark. But now, it's common for people to have a close encounter with a Shark.

CRAWFORD: Of all the things that could have caused that increase in close encounters, including potentially an increased abundance of the White Pointers, and potentially an increased behavioural interaction with Humans. If we focus specifically on the possibility that the cage dive operations have affected that ... so, not just overall abundance could increase the encounters, not just an increase in the White Pointers prey, or some other feature of the habitat. Specifically, the cage dive operations themselves. Starting about eight years ago, and then permitted as of last year with DOC's regulations. Have you seen them running their Shark cage dive operations?

HOPKINS: I've been out there when they been operating. I haven't been on the boat.

CRAWFORD: No. So, they go out there. They moor or they anchor, they berley with a fairly fine mince to it - now, under the permit. They're not allowed to feed White Pointers, but they are allowed to have a bait on a rope that they can use to guide the White Pointers past the cage, rather than circling around. And as you've already mentioned, there were different practices prior to permitting. And since there used to be no constraints there would have been some levels of feeding during the early years. But that's explicitly not allowed under the current permits. Cage goes in the water, people go in the cage, the people take their pictures and have their experiences for whatever period of time, and then they wrap up the operation, and go home. What is it in that process, do you think, that is affecting the White Pointers?

HOPKINS: They're associating people with food.

CRAWFORD: Under circumstances described by the current DOC permit, the White Pointers are strictly not to be fed. The berley needs to be a fine mince, so there is the smell of food but not the bodies or the frames of fish that would be swallowed as food by the animal. It's the smell of food only. Do you think that the animals are associating the smell of food with either the place or the boat or the presence of Humans?

HOPKINS: When they're getting bombarded with all these nice food smells, there's people just there as well. There associating people with the smell of food.

CRAWFORD: Ok, let's go through this stepwise. The first factor is the place. Do you think the White Pointers associate the smell of food with the place where the cage dive operations occur? Such that if there were no Shark cage dive operations at Edwards Island, there would be far fewer Sharks at that location? That there are more White Pointers that are associated with that place, specifically because of the cage tour dive operations there?

HOPKINS: It's probably becoming that way. See, it's an ideal place because it's sheltered. If it's easterly, like it is now, the Shark boats would go on this side. If it's westerly, they're on the other side.

CRAWFORD: Right. And that's one of the reasons why the Shark cage operators said that it's the combination - that they can find White Pointers there, and they can always anchor relatively safely and comfortably.

HOPKINS: They establish a place where the Sharks know they can go and ...

CRAWFORD: And that's the point I'm trying to get to. Do you think White Pointers associate the smell of food with place, such that they would hang around that place longer or more frequently?

HOPKINS: Yes. Because I've been fishing out there twice specifically, and each time there's been Sharks around the boat. Once was that time that I showed you the photos. I mean, I don't work taking people fishing. I take a few friends, but I don't take out charters to Edwards. Twice I've been fishing out there, and each time - Sharks have turned up.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the White Pointers associate the smell of food with boats generically? Not the cage tour dive boat specifically, but just any boat near the smell of food? Such that if any other boat went over to Edwards Island ... let's imagine a boat that was completely new to this area, and it went out to Edwards Island, and it didn't do anything other than anchor at that location and did nothing else. Do you think the White Pointers would be attracted to that boat as a result of the association between the smell of food and the presence of a boat, generally - because of the cage dive operations?

HOPKINS: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Why do you think the White Pointers would be attracted more to the presence of boats generally, as a result of the association with the smell of food?

HOPKINS: Because they associate that with food.

CRAWFORD: The smell of food, in this case. You had mentioned before, and now I'd like to have you explain in a little bit more detail please, the idea of a sound signature that the White Pointers respond to. Well, the sound, or some other property of the motor or engine on a boat. First of all, do you think the White Pointers associate the smell of food with the sound signature of a motor? Do you think that they're capable, and that they would do that?

HOPKINS: Each boat has probably quite an individual noise. Because all boats are different, you seldom see two boats the same. Different engines, different construction. Like, aluminium is very noisy. Whereas the old Argo, Scott's original boat, was wooden and it would've had a very distinctive, very slow-revving engine with a big propeller. It was built as a trawler. [chug, chug, chug]

CRAWFORD: So, very distinctive sound?

HOPKINS: Yeah. I've never heard of anyone saying they've seen a Shark following the Kiriwaipai. It would have been a completely different noise, it would have been a high-pitch noise being aluminium, it's got a small high-revving propeller. See, both cage dive operators have changed boats.

CRAWFORD: Yes they did, just this year.

HOPKINS: It would be interesting to know.

CRAWFORD: It would be interesting to know if there is less performance attracting White Pointers this year, with these two new boats. I was going to bring that question up with you, anyway.

HOPKINS: I was wondering about that. Now, they've each got aluminium boats. Completely different sounds, from the boats they were using before. Did you hear about Johnny Leask, he died now about probably three or four years ago. It was a photo in the newspaper, he had a Shark ... it was the Rawhiti, you know Gordon Leask's boat? The wooden one?

CRAWFORD: Yes.

HOPKINS: A Shark was swimming around the boat while he was fishing out there somewhere, and it bit the boat on the bow, and left one of its teeth embedded in the wood. About that same time, there was Anthony O'Rourke ... have you talked to him?

CRAWFORD: Yes.

HOPKINS: He told me that he was cleaning Cod at Dead Man's, felt a bit of a jolt on the boat ... did he tell you about that?

CRAWFORD: More than a jolt. Yes.

HOPKINS: It went up on the slip about a week later or something. Steel rudder on it, and you could see the teeth marks where it slid off the boat.

CRAWFORD: Yes. So, there's definitely a response to boat presence. I mean these animals are responding to the vessels.

HOPKINS: But they're actually butting the boats. And that was not far off the same time my daughter had that photo of the Shark biting the DOC boat. It was a big Shark, come up and just bit the landing on the stern of the boat.

CRAWFORD: Does that photo still exist?

HOPKINS: There's a video. I've probably still got it. She's married to Ty Jenkinson, so if you're going to see Ty, he'll probably have it.

CRAWFORD: In terms of the White Pointers responding to individual motors then, if I'm hearing you correctly - you're saying 'yes'.

HOPKINS: Yeah, but I'm sure that the minute they get that same smell of food with these other boats, they'll turn up just the same.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I was going after the question of whether individual motor differences would be important, and again I think you're saying 'yes'.

HOPKINS: Well see, different boats are better for Tuna fishing. A boat like the Argo would far outfish a boat like the Kiriwaipai, if you were Tuna fishing. It's that noise.

CRAWFORD: And other people have brought that up. There are some boats that are just not going to perform as Tuna boats at all. And others that will. And it seems to be very much a configuration issue.

HOPKINS: See, my boat, when I slow down there's a high-pitch whine develops with the propellers. Most propellers do it. But mine's really noisy, whether it's the aluminium or just the way the propellers are, I don't know. See those cast iron propellers outside the Museum? If you go up Paterson Inlet, at the Whaling base, you'll see all these big propellers laying on the beach. And a lot of them have got whole flukes missing off them or chips out of them. But they're all cast iron. And that's because, like a bronze propeller - which everyone uses, bronze -  sends out this ring in the water that would frighten the Whales. But with the cast iron blades, they were dead quiet. So, there's all different things like that.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Last part of this line of questioning. Do you think the White Pointers that are exposed to the cage dive operations will associate the smell of food with the presence of Human Beings, such that if they see a Human in the water at some other place and time with no other cues, that there would be an elevation in the interaction? Such that if there would have been no interaction, it would go to a Level 1? Or a Level 1 would go to a Level 2? That they will increase their interest, as a result of exposure to that cage diving environment where the smell of food and a Human in the water existed before?

HOPKINS: I honestly believe it's only a matter of time before someone is taken by a Shark. Just the proliferation of people having close encounters with Sharks. It's only a matter of time before someone gets taken.

CRAWFORD: Some people have said that it's only a matter of time, regardless of whether there's cage diving operations or not. That there's an increase in Human population, and potentially an increase in White Pointer population abundance ...

HOPKINS: Probably a decrease in people swimming nowadays.

CRAWFORD: Well, that gets back to another idea.

HOPKINS: But there's an increase in people out fishing in inflatables.

CRAWFORD: Yes, there is. So maybe it's six of one, and half dozen of the other?

HOPKINS: You wouldn't catch me fishing in an inflatable. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: There's no end to foolishness either. But getting back to associations - we saw it just now as a coincidence, as Mike Haines' cage dive boat just came in. And you said there was a dinghy in the Bay ...

HOPKINS: There's two dinghies. One's got an outboard on, the other one hasn't. He's just tying the other one on. They're having a lot of fun.

CRAWFORD: Some people are saying there has been a decline in that type of surface pleasure boat activity in the Bay. And bathing in the Bay, which is why I asked the teacher in charge of the school group about their swimming. Or paddleboards or kayaks. Have you noticed a decline in those types of water-based pleasure activity?

HOPKINS: I reckon I have, yeah. Everyone's conscious of it.

CRAWFORD: Is it because of the cage dive operations?

HOPKINS: Well, it's because of the Sharks.

CRAWFORD: Because of the Sharks. Whether or not there's a link between cage dive operations and the Sharks?

HOPKINS: Well, it's like I said, in the last six or eight years, there's just more and more people having close encounters.

CRAWFORD: And those stories when they get around, people say "Nah, we don't want the kids on a kayak out there."

HOPKINS: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And strangely, other people have said "Just go over to Paterson Inlet."

HOPKINS: [both laugh]

CRAWFORD: Not necessarily getting them the kind of results they expected.

HOPKINS: On a fine day in the summer, I'll go and put an inflatable in five metres of water. I'll jump in it, and go somewhere, take a lunch and tear around the Inlet. You know, I'm quite happy doing that. But you wouldn't catch me fishing out of it.

CRAWFORD: Being in an inflatable is one thing, being in an inflatable doing something else that could attract attention is a different thing.

HOPKINS: Well, no. When we're in the dinghy, we're cruising along relatively quickly, I suppose. But you wouldn't catch me stopping and fishing.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Some people have said it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, because although Stewart Island has had very good fortune in the past, there haven't been attacks - lethal or nonlethal - but some people have said that it's like driving on a highway. It's statistical probability theory, it's going to happen at some point. When it does happen, the finger-pointing is also going to happen. But it's impossible to say, in any specific instance, that a specific attack is connected to a specific factor like cage dive operations.

HOPKINS: But there's going to be people that say it. The finger will be pointed at cage diving.

CRAWFORD: Yes. That's an unfortunate reality. What I'm trying to do is get the discussion on the substance of the effects in focus with people learning what they need to learn, before that attack takes place. So that if and when, God forbid, it should ever happen, people can at least say "We did everything we felt was appropriate or reasonable to do, to inform ourselves about what the risks were." But to get back to that point, just to wrap it up, if I'm reading you correctly you believe that the Sharks are capable and that they do make an association between the smell of food and the presence of Humans in the water. Such that, if they encounter a Human in the water at some of the time and place ...

HOPKINS: They'll go and say "Where's my food?"

CRAWFORD: They will behave differently, with more interest. They might have been curious anyways. For instance, twenty years ago, circling around a dinghy. But that now they would be more inclined to engage. There would be a greater probability of interacting, or a greater probability of increasing the intensity of an interaction?

HOPKINS: Yes.

Copyright © 2020 Colin Hopkins and Steve Crawford