Chris Hogan

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Where were you born, Chris?

HOGAN: I was born in Tokanui, over by Waipapa Point. 

CRAWFORD: And how old are you now?

HOGAN: 40.

CRAWFORD: At what age did you started spending significant amount of time around the water? 

HOGAN: I think it was around about eight or nine years old. 

CRAWFORD: In the Tokanui region?

HOGAN: No, we moved out of that region when I was around about four and a half - just before school started. We moved to Oamaru. My Father was a teacher, and he moved to another position at Oamaru Intermediate School.

CRAWFORD: Still a coastal community?

HOGAN: Absolutely. According to my Mother, I felt quite sort of trapped, compared to the open space I had there. I would tend to wander around Oamaru a lot. I would wander off into the streets, and go down to the local harbour. There’s quite a pronounced harbour in Oamaru. Anyway, Mom loved the sea - she was a surf life saver. As a result of that, we used to spend a lot of time at the beach through the summers. 

CRAWFORD: How long did you spend in Oamaru?

HOGAN: I was there until late teens, early 20s.

CRAWFORD: Basically, your youth and your adolescence?

HOGAN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: During that period, what kinds of activities would be typical for you - on, around or in the water?

HOGAN: Swimming initially, from about eight years old until around about eleven. Swimming and sailing. 

CRAWFORD: What happened at the age of eleven?

HOGAN: I found surfing.

CRAWFORD: Did you dabble in it? Or did you dive right in?

HOGAN: Dove.

CRAWFORD: It became an important part of the time you spent around the water?

HOGAN: Yeah, it did. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly what percentage of your total time around the water were you surfing?

HOGAN: I’d say 50%.

CRAWFORD: 50% boarding, 50% sailing?

HOGAN: Yeah. I was in the local sailing club. It was a very common pastime in Oamaru, where you would go up the Waitaki Valley and spend a lot of time in the lakes there.

CRAWFORD: Keeping a focus just on coastal waters, what percentage of the total time spent boarding?

HOGAN: It would probably be 80% surf.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Through those years, what areas of New Zealand coastal waters were you swimming, sailing, boarding?

HOGAN: Mostly around the Oamaru area. Kakanui actually was where we spent a lot of time. But we did travel extensively, once we got our licenses.

CRAWFORD: I'm guessing that Kakanui is a popular a surfing spot?

HOGAN: Yes. It’s about 12, 13 kilometres south of Oamaru. We also started to venture into the Catlins, once we got our licenses. Therefore Dunedin also became fair ground.

CRAWFORD: During your later teenage years you surfed the Otago Peninsula?

HOGAN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: And you also went down to the Catlins and surfed there?

HOGAN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: It seems that there was more of a Southerly attraction ... 

HOGAN: Yeah. The swell, obviously. There’s more swell, and there are more features in this coast. We became aware that there were beaches that maybe hadn’t even been surfed before. We kind of felt that we were pioneering some of these areas as well. We probably weren’t realistically, but it certainly felt that way. 

CRAWFORD: There weren’t a lot of boarders at some of these spots?

HOGAN: No. When I first started surfing, we surfed for about a year before some older guys came and asked us to get a leg rope because our boards were constantly getting tumbled towards them. We didn’t even know that leg ropes existed.

CRAWFORD: Older guys, as in older boarders?

HOGAN: Older surfers, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And you were a teenager at the time?

HOGAN: Yeah, I guess it was then.

CRAWFORD: These older surfers - 40, 50 maybe 60 years old?

HOGAN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Maybe some hippies? Old-timers for your generation?

HOGAN: Yeah, they were - a lot of them. Absolutely.

CRAWFORD: Alright. So, generally your young adult range was from Oamaru down through to the Catlins?

HOGAN: Yeah. We ventured into the Timaru area, but realized that there wasn’t too much going on there. And we noted that there were a lot of Timaru and Christchurch surfers coming south through Oamaru, heading for the Catlins ...

CRAWFORD: They were attracted to the same thing that you were? You were just closer to the action?

HOGAN: Absolutely. And it became apparent to us, that the Catlins was the place to be. Southeastern South Island, because of the prevailing wind, the westerly, offshore swell - plenty of swell. And lots of nooks and crannies, lots of points, lots of beaches, lots of areas to explore. 

CRAWFORD: What’s the next significant change in coastal experience or time available? Did you get a job, or move away?

HOGAN: I got called to come and work in a local surf shop down here in Invercargill, by a guy called Howard Anderson. I’d met him at a meeting, and he called me and said "Would you come down and manage the shop for a couple of weeks?" Which I did. 

CRAWFORD: You were in your early 20s ...

HOGAN: I was working at the freezing works in Oamaru. Really going nowhere at that point, sort of looking for some direction in my life. So, it was a perfect opportunity for me to.

CRAWFORD: You got that job offer through a connection with the surf community?

HOGAN: It was a connection through friends. But I guess you could say it was a connection through the surf community - one that I didn’t know about. He had picked up on my experience as a surfer. At that stage, I was probably surfing for eight years or so. But he thought that my experience was as great as anyone else he had come across in Southland, in terms of people he knew. 

CRAWFORD: You had the experience, and you were the right kind of age to maybe be interested in being employed to run the shop in his absence? That kind of thing?

HOGAN: Yes. I moved to Invercargill. He said "Come down, live with me for a couple of weeks. I’ll feed you. You can run the store." I think it was about three weeks later that I was still here, and Howard said "Would you like to continue?" I decided that I would decide to stick around.

CRAWFORD: You were early 20s, you relocated to Invercargill, you had a job - but now you were also in a different geographical range. Did you continue to surf while you were managing the surf shop?

HOGAN: Absolutely.

CRAWFORD: How much time would you have been able to get out? Given the fact that you had a fulltime job as the shop manager?

HOGAN: Three nights a week, during summer - sometimes four. And all weekend, generally. Every third weekend, I would go and see my little boy up in Oamaru. 

CRAWFORD: So, we're still talking a substantial time on the water?

HOGAN: Most of my spare time.

CRAWFORD: Of the time that you were around the coast, what proportion of that time were you boarding?

HOGAN: Probably 80%. The only other thing would have been occasional freediving for Pāua. Some swimming and mucking around in the water.

CRAWFORD: But mostly boarding?

HOGAN: Mostly boarding, yeah.

CRAWFORD: What geographic range? 

HOGAN: We surfed from Pahia Point, venturing right into the Wahia. And Porridge was a real favourite, just in here. We also spent a lot of our time, probably 60%, 70% in the Curio Bay region. The reason being, was a friend had a bach on the beach there, so we were able to travel and stay overnight. We could arrive down there at two o'clock at night, wake up in the morning, and go for a surf.

CRAWFORD: At that location, or as a base of operations for the region?

HOGAN: Often it was a base of operations to attack the Catlins - which meant right up to Progress Valley, Kaka Point.

CRAWFORD: So, you were surfing pretty much all of Southland?

HOGAN: Pretty much, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: During those years, did you ever venture into southern Fiordland?

HOGAN: No. No, we never really had the means at that point.

CRAWFORD: Anything over on Stewart Island?

HOGAN: Not at that stage, no.

CRAWFORD: Ok. How long did that pattern last?

HOGAN: For quite some time. Nearly a decade, I guess. 

CRAWFORD: Until you were in your early 30s? And then what changed?

HOGAN: Workload, children.

CRAWFORD: Life.

HOGAN: In general.

CRAWFORD: Did it just compress the amount of time available? Or did it preclude - were you out of the water for a while? 

HOGAN: No, interestingly enough. It just compressed my time. But my ear infections did take me out of the water, sometimes for two or three months on end. 

CRAWFORD: Those started in your 30s?

HOGAN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, a combination of factors that generally reduced the amount of time on the water. But in general the same seasonality over the course of a year, and the same distribution in the region?

HOGAN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: But rather than being equivalent to two or three days a week, maybe it was one or two days a week?

HOGAN: That’s right.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What happened next?

HOGAN: Around about ten years ago, I shut my surf shop.

CRAWFORD: I missed something. When did you start up your own shop?

HOGAN: I bought the shop from Howard. Yeah, he offered me the store about a year after I started

CRAWFORD: Around 1998?

HOGAN: End of '98, yeah.

CRAWFORD: That’s a significant time demand. 

HOGAN: Yeah, it was. By '99 I had given myself enough room to be able to buy a house, and do some things like that. So I guess, yeah, my priorities shifted into family and things like that. But because I was self-employed, I had the means ... I was still able to surf a lot. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When did you shut down the shop?

HOGAN: 2006.

CRAWFORD: So, you ran it as your operation for about eight years?

HOGAN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And then did you completely move out of the business of surfing retail?

HOGAN: I did, yeah. During that period of time, I was organizing surfing competitions. Very much involved with New Zealand Surfing, and involved with a local big wave competition which we had down here - it was held off Centre Island. We took boats out there - we had some of the best in the world.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other natural break point between then and now?

HOGAN: I guess my time in the water for the last ten years has been around about one to three days a week, with a day in the weekend.

CRAWFORD: Ok. With a seasonal pulse in activity? 

HOGAN: Definitely. Temperature creates that. Water temperature, and hours in the day.

CRAWFORD: What part of the year do you spend most of your time on the water?

HOGAN: In the summer, but spring and autumn are also exceptionally good down here - in terms of the weather conditions, the wind, and the swell.

CRAWFORD: It’s like an extended summer in that sense?

HOGAN: It is, it is.

CRAWFORD: Your extended season - let's say it was roughly eight months. Going from when to when? 

HOGAN: September right through to May. 

CRAWFORD: And that has been your surfing season for about the last eight years?

HOGAN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Is there anything else? Did you have any substantial amount of time on, around or in the water - anyplace else that we should talk about? 

HOGAN: Well, during that time, we did start to travel into Fiordland. 

CRAWFORD: Based out of Invercargill, surfing in Fiordland?

HOGAN: Yeah. We would fly in. We did several trips. It was during the surf shop era - those ten years we really started to focus. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly how many trips a year?

HOGAN: We probably did at least a trip a year. Sometimes two.

CRAWFORD: Anything else during your time down here in Southland?

HOGAN: I also have a part-time Pāua diving job. I run dinghies. 

CRAWFORD: You’re a dinghy boy?

HOGAN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When did that part-time job start?

HOGAN: About five years ago. 

CRAWFORD: To the present?

HOGAN: Yeah, I’m still doing it occasionally, just part-time. Once every couple of months, or whenever the boys need me. And we travel from Riverton generally, and we’ll hit the west side of Stewart Island, and go all the way down to Doughboy.

CRAWFORD: In behind Codfish?

HOGAN: Yeah. Codfish, all the way down through Masons. We went all through these areas, right into Doughboy - the areas are quite good diving. 

CRAWFORD: In the bay itself?

HOGAN: No. Generally the rocky points, and Masons head on. You get some really good Pāua there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, also outside of Codfish, and the region between the Ruggedies and Codfish?

HOGAN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Who are you crewing for? 

HOGAN: That was with the Newtons. With Rob Emmett, Steve Newton, Chase Newton, Grant Newton, Clarky. Hamish is the other dinghy boy, Clarky and Hamish are the two main dinghy boys.

CRAWFORD: These guys are all commercial Pāua divers? Have been for all their careers?

HOGAN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Western shore of Stewart Island. What about the other side?

HOGAN: Yeah right down to Little Kuri. We make a head down for Chickatara - wherever that is, on this map.

CRAWFORD: Anything out by the Northern Titi Islands - that region?

HOGAN: No, not with the Pāua divers. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS 

CRAWFORD: In general, to what extent has Māori culture and knowledge informed your understanding about these the marine ecosystem?

HOGAN: That’s a really good question. I mean Puke Pou has always been someone I’ve always looked up to, in terms of information and trust. He has been such an influential person in my surfing career in Southland. But, I think for me it would still be Very Low to Low, because I didn’t have a lot of Māori influence around me when I was growing up in Oamaru. Dad’s best friend was Māori - he was a teacher. It’s kind of how much of that information came from those people? I’m going to say a little step above low. I’m going to say somewhere between Low and Medium. Not extremely Low because I tried to understand a lot of what Puke has told me.

CRAWFORD: Where would you put the Science contribution to your knowledge about marine ecosystems? 

HOGAN: I think about medium as well, very similar.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

CRAWFORD: You said that your Mum told you to be aware of Sharks, time of day, and location while you were surfing?

HOGAN: Yeah, location. Where we were surfing. And that was amplified by the time of day. She was concerned about two or three main areas. One was a rocky point that we used to surf called Bushy’s Beach.

CRAWFORD: That was in the Oamaru region?

HOGAN: It is. It’s literally right on Cape Wanbrow. It’s right on the end of that point. We sort of pioneered this spot. It had a very large Yellow-Eyed Penguin colony there, but it also had quite a lot of Seal activity on that point. So, that was one area ... she just didn’t like it, she got a bad feeling. It had a deepwater channel right off that rocky point. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, be very careful around rocky points, Penguins and Seals, deepwater drop-off. She didn't like it specifically because of Sharks? Or because it might have strong rip currents, or anything else?

HOGAN: I think in this situation, it was driven mostly by the Sharks. By the fear of that, all the concern.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Were there any other specific places of concern?

HOGAN: She talked about the sewage outfall.

CRAWFORD: What sewage outfall?

HOGAN: There was quite a large sewage outfall. Before it was treated, they used to pump it straight out.

CRAWFORD: This was municipal sewage? Or agricultural, or freezer works, or what? 

HOGAN: Municipal. The town sewage from Oamaru was pumped out down past the golf course. Literally raw sewage was being pumped out of a pipe, onto the surface of the ocean, not more than 15 metres off the coast. It was literally a raw outfall. It was horrific.

CRAWFORD: How far away from bathing beaches was it?

HOGAN: Well, Kakanui was probably 10 kilometres south. And Oamaru was just around the point. So, you’re talking probably around two or three kilometres from where any bathing really took place. 

CRAWFORD: I'm presuming there was a prevailing current?

HOGAN: You’ve generally got a northerly current there, because the swell predominantly comes from the south. But it was still a terrible system. We, as surfers, actually campaigned to get that sewage outfall changed.

CRAWFORD: Did your Mum express her specific concern on the basis on the content of the sewage, or on the response of the wildlife to the sewage?

HOGAN: I don’t know. But it was definitely an area that she wanted us to stay out of. I believe that it was probably the raw sewage that was really her main motivator in that situation. But she did also mention the abattoirs ... because when we started to surf, we were going anywhere and everywhere we could - especially once we got access to motor cycles and ways to travel. We were really searching through anything. And there were a couple of areas which we were close to - there were several abattoirs just north of Oamaru. And she felt that was also a real danger point. 

CRAWFORD: Danger point regarding contents of the sewage, or danger point for a different reason?

HOGAN: For a different reason. 

CRAWFORD: Did she explicitly say what?

HOGAN: Yeah. She was quite clear that the sewage could attract sea life. I can’t say absolutely whether she said Sharks, but yeah absolutely.

CRAWFORD: Did you get the sense that your Mum was asking you to behave in a more cautious way than the other kids? Were all the other kids out swimming or surfing in early morning or late evening?

HOGAN: It’s a really good point. I think Mum had more knowledge and background about these things than any of my friends' parents. But the level of concern didn’t seem to be any greater. The other parents were as concerned, In fact, some of the other parents were possibly more concerned.

CRAWFORD: In general, was it the case that there was a relatively high level of concern - across the board - in the community?

HOGAN: Yeah, I’d say so. The reason I say that, is because one of my good friends, his Mum would always "I’m just worried about you boys." So, you know, there was definitely concern from all of our parents.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you personally ever see any White Pointers along that Oamaru to Catlins region?

HOGAN: No. Not that I can identify as being a White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: Did you see any Sharks - in general?

HOGAN: Yes.

CRAWFORD: What kinds of Sharks that you could recognize?

HOGAN: The only Shark that I recognized for sure was a Basking Shark. 

CRAWFORD: You’ve seen a Basking Shark in the wild?

HOGAN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Where about?

HOGAN: That was Kakanui - a little south of Oamaru. We were sitting out there, a friend Mark and I were surfing. I saw a silhouette of a Shark in a wave as the sun was coming through - a silhouette through the water of a perfect Shark. Something you would see in a kid's drawing type thing. I kind of rubbed my eyes and thought "No, it can’t be. There’s no way. It was just too big." I turned around, and then back again, and - sure enough, it was absolutely there, it was definitely there. So, I turned and caught the next wave - just out of pure fear and panic. I just got the hell out of there! Not communicating to my friend who was still out there. When I got onto the beach I thought "I don’t know if that actually really happened. Was that real? Was it really there? If it is, it’s huge!" As I got up onto the point, I got a little bit of elevation ... sure enough, some more set waves came through, and I could see this silhouette of this perfect Shark. I yelled "Shark!" And I was tooting on the horn on my motorbike. And I’m yelling "Shark!" at the same time, just jumping up and down. My friend Mark in the water thought I was yelling "Mark, Mark." He’s waving at me. He turns and actually paddles towards the Shark, because he thought I was meaning there’s a big wave coming - we often used to indicate if there was a set wave coming. And he paddles straight towards it! And you can see him recognize ... see the Shark. And he spun, and I’m pretty sure he caught the wave in front of him - I think it’s actually impossible, but I’m pretty sure he did it. He literally paddled over the next wave. But it was huge. And it was documented by the Oamaru Mail newspaper - that particular Shark. We didn’t know at the time that it was a Basking Shark, we didn’t really know anything about Basking Sharks at all.

CRAWFORD: It was just a big Shark silhouette. Any distinguishing features at all?

HOGAN: The dorsal fin. 

CRAWFORD: What about it?

HOGAN: It was massive. Like the size of the pane of glass behind you. 

CRAWFORD: The dorsal fin was out of the water?

HOGAN: Yeah, it came out of the water. Not at that particular point - but about an hour later. The Shark stayed stationary. Literally, just almost sat still there. 

CRAWFORD: What depth of water are we talking about?

HOGAN: Two or three metres.

CRAWFORD: Very shallow water?

HOGAN: Very shallow water. 

CRAWFORD: Was the animal actually sitting on the bottom? 

HOGAN: Almost. Well, how deep would the water have been? Yeah, it would have been two and a half, three metres deep at that point. And literally inside of the point, you know? It wasn’t outside of the protection of the point. It was inside, in shallow water, where the waves were virtually breaking. Side on to the coast. 

CRAWFORD: When you saw the fin ... do you remember anything about it? The shape, or anything else?

HOGAN: I remember it being very square. Like quite flat at the back, from my recollection. The tail was quite a long tail too, so it had quite a long tail. Iit stayed in the area for two or three days. And then it was spotted further up the coast, about a kilometre, maybe two kilometres, up the coast a few days later. With the dorsal fin slightly bent and curled over, still in very shallow water, with very little movement. I think DOC [Department of Conservation] were called in. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see any other features of the Shark's body?

HOGAN: Dark. Really black. Quite a dark colour. 

CRAWFORD: What about the shape? Was there anything about the shape that was kind of striking?

HOGAN: I just remember its length. 

CRAWFORD: Anything about the mouth? 

HOGAN: I don’t recall. Once it was identified as a Basking Shark, some of the Kakanui locals swum out to have a closer look. And they certainly got a good look at it. I never did that. 

CRAWFORD: This was one Basking Shark. Were there others in the region? 

HOGAN: No, it was one. 

CRAWFORD: How long do you figure it stayed in the region? On the order of weeks?

HOGAN: No, less than a week. Somewhere between three and seven days. But certainly, over a period of a few days. And it didn’t go far. I think there was a DOC article. The paper took a photo of it, the Oamaru Mail. I think there was a mention that DOC had said it was possibly an older Shark that was resting - or something like that. They made mention of it - the fact that the Shark was maybe dying. 

CRAWFORD: This particular Shark didn’t respond to you at all?

HOGAN: No.

CRAWFORD: Didn’t respond to your mate?

HOGAN: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Was that the only time that you’ve seen a Basking Shark in the wild?

HOGAN: Identified positively as a Basking Shark, yes. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see any other kinds of Sharks in the Oamaru region? Did you see any Makos or Blues or Dog Sharks?

HOGAN: We had a period of time where there was a heck of a lot of threshing going on off Kakanui Point - maybe 100 metres offshore. We don’t know what Sharks were doing it, but we were quite confident that it was Sharks, not Dolphins or any other fish life. You would get quite a large amount of water flying, threshing going on you know? And Orcas.

CRAWFORD: Were Orca sightings rare events in that region?

HOGAN: It was pretty rare. But yearly, generally. I think it was a migration.

CRAWFORD: Do you remember what time of year?

HOGAN: About now [November], I think. 

CRAWFORD: Any interactions between the Orcas and people? 

HOGAN: No, they were just off of the point - about a kilometre offshore.

CRAWFORD: Individuals or groups?

HOGAN: Generally, groups.

CRAWFORD: Had any of the other old-timers said anything about seeing White Pointers in the Oamaru region?

HOGAN: No. In fact, my feeling was that it was almost contrary. They felt that Oamaru was never an area of danger for White Pointers. That Kakanui, for whatever reason, the older generation generally rubbished any danger like that. They had never seen them in the bay, so they had no reason to be concerned that way.

CRAWFORD: Ok. You said before that once you had access to vehicles, you and your mates started to explore further south, including the Otago Peninsula and down as far as the Catlins. You were spending a fair amount of time in that region. Did you ever see any White Pointers in your time around there?

HOGAN: No.

CRAWFORD: Did you hear of any contemporaries seeing any White Pointers during that time? 

HOGAN: No. But on the east coast, just north of Curio Bay, there’s a little place called Progress Valley. We surfed there quite regularly. It’s a really nice spot in the Catlins. I’ve entirely forgotten about it, I guess - but there was a Sea Lion on the beach, and it had been bitten. Yeah, the jaw, we could establish the size of the Shark jaw from the bite. 

CRAWFORD: That was a carcass? Or was the Sea Lion still alive at the time?

HOGAN: It was a carcass, with a fresh bite.

CRAWFORD: Roughly when was this?

HOGAN: Gosh, that was a while ago now. Ten to fifteen years ago. During my time in the shop. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year? 

HOGAN: Summer. Height of summer, from my recollection.

CRAWFORD: Any other places along that shoreline - particular locations to be wary of? 

HOGAN: The one that always springs to mind, but I really couldn’t give you any positive ID of Sharks from, but one that gives you that 'feeling' is Haldane - which is just South of Curio Bay. It’s just past Slope Point, in this area here. Part of the reason is that you paddle across a channel to get to the reef, a couple of hundred metres across. Quite a deep piece of water. And you’re sort of isolated off the coast. But that is one area that people just do not surf morning or evening, really.

CRAWFORD: Alright, let's move to the next period of time in your coastal experience, after you moved to Invercargill. Did you ever see any White Pointers around here?

HOGAN: No. But, you certainly get a feeling in this area around Porridge, that raw ocean. You’ve got nothing between you and Antarctica - you’re facing virtually due south. It’s a pretty raw and rugged piece of coastline, so it lends itself to being Shark territory. There have been, especially in the last year or so, quite a number of Shark encounters around there - but not White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: What kinds of Sharks?

HOGAN: This is where I’m pretty bad at Shark identification. 

CRAWFORD: Is this is your experience? Or other people's experiences? 

HOGAN: I have only been out there when other people have been bumped.

CRAWFORD: We’re talking specifically about boarders being bumped?

HOGAN: Yeah. I had a group of friends down from Queenstown, and five or ten of them got bumped in one day. 

CRAWFORD: Where about?

HOGAN: Porridge. 

CRAWFORD: These were boarders getting bumped by a Shark. Did anybody see the Shark or Sharks that were doing the bumping?

HOGAN: Yeah, there was. And it was noted that it wasn’t a White Pointer. That was really the major factor. That’s usually the question that’s asked "Was it a White Pointer?’ And it wasn’t.

CRAWFORD: If it wasn’t a White Pointer, did they have any idea about what it was?

HOGAN: I’m really bad, because they probably do know, and I really should know. Name the Sharks locally that we’ve got?

CRAWFORD: There are Basking Sharks, there are Blue Sharks, there are Makos, and Threshers, and Porbeagles and Seven-Gillers ...

HOGAN: Yeah. Seven-Gillers - they're the ones that are quite commonly noted as doing the bumping.

CRAWFORD: The do have a reputation for interacting with Humans. And I've had other boarders tell me about Seven-Gillers bumping their boards. 

HOGAN. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was them.

CRAWFORD: Is that the only time you’ve ever heard of Sharks bumping boarders?

HOGAN: No, no. This has been happening quite repeatedly over the last two to three years. I’m talking 30 or 40 incidents of bumping. Puke Pou will back this up.

CRAWFORD: You mean different days?

HOGAN: Yeah. Sometimes you’ll go out, and someone will come in and say "Oh, there was a Shark out there today." You go out the following day and "There was a Shark out there today." I’m talking repeatedly over days. Sometimes they don’t bump, sometimes they’re just seen. But it does seem that in the last two to three years, I’m hoping Puke will verify this - that there has been an increased amount of contact.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever been bumped?

HOGAN: Only by something which was pretty small. But yes, I have.

CRAWFORD: Something small - did you get a good look at it?

HOGAN: Yeah, I did actually. And I take it back, it wasn’t actually that small - it probably was about 7 or 8 feet, which isn’t tiny. And that was actually at Colac Bay. During a surf competition which we had. 

CRAWFORD: Did other people in the competition get bumped as well?

HOGAN: Yeah, yeah. In fact, repetitively over two or three heats, people were said hello to. It was definitely identified, people said it was a Seven-Giller. It had almost a brownish colour to it. And I remember there being a white flash on it somewhere, maybe on the tip of its tail, or the tip of the fin. There was a guy bitten last year actually, he was bitten inGarden Bay. And he was a local doctor or something like that. He required stitches.

CRAWFORD: He was boarding in Garden Bay? 

HOGAN: No, I think he was scubadiving or freediving. And this was only last year actually. He ended up going to the pub on the way home and having a beer, because it wasn’t that bad. He didn’t attribute it to a White Pointer, but it will be noted somewhere. 

CRAWFORD: Is there anything else about White Pointers in the Southland region - other than what you’ve told me so far? On this side of the Foveaux Strait.

HOGAN: No, nothing pops out.

CRAWFORD: Ok. While you are being a dinghy boy for the Pāua divers, have you seen any White Pointers anywhere around Stewart Island?

HOGAN: No.

CRAWFORD:  Have the Pāua divers you are working with - have they seen White Pointers in that region?

HOGAN: Yeah, they have. They talk about it. There’s a channel that we go through, and just after it - in this area here they comment. We were actually fishing there recently, we were targeting Groper just off here. 

CRAWFORD: Linefishing or what? 

HOGAN: Linefishing off the boat. We had just finished for the day, and we thought we would try and catch a few fish. Steve and the boys made comment that this is an area where there has been a lot of Shark sightings.

CRAWFORD: White Pointer sightings or Shark sightings generally? 

HOGAN: They just said Sharks. They talk about this area as having that ... you know we were talking about having that feeling? Sometimes you get in the water, and you’ve got this feeling that there is something around or something like that? They talk about this area - as feeling quite vulnerable. And some other areas not so much. But they know this is probably an area where the majority of White Pointers are seen. 

CRAWFORD: You’re talking about Ruapuke now?

HOGAN: Ruapuke to the Titis, yeah. And like I mentioned, there was a story of a resident Shark in around Ruapuke Island. 

CRAWFORD: No, I don’t think you told me. Please tell me that story. 

HOGAN: There was just a story when I first came to Southland, and a lot of fisherman have talked about it - about Topi Island. It was often a story told by Bluff fisherman, more so than Riverton fisherman, about a large Great White Shark, that was seen in this area. And they used to joke that it would turn on the tide, so it remained in the area. As the tide would turn, and the tide would pull across this direction through the Strait, it would turn and feed; and as the tide turned, the Shark would literally be facing the other direction, pretty stationary and pretty sedentary. And seen around the island repetitively, which kind of lent itself to a story of a resident. 

CRAWFORD: These are stories told by the Bluff fisherman. Roughly when was the first time you would have heard these stories?

HOGAN: Probably in the shop. People used to come in and tell me things they’ve experienced, and things on the sea they felt were worth talking about.

CRAWFORD: Were these fisherman that were coming in to the surfing shop?

HOGAN: Yeah, interestingly enough it was. It was more fishermen, than Pāua divers, now that you mention it.

CRAWFORD: When you say fishermen, you mean Codpotters, setnetters?

HOGAN: Cod fishermen, Cray fisherman, but yeah Cod fisherman and fisherman in general. Even Oyster boats. And seen from above.

CRAWFORD: In the stories, did people talk about any markings that they would have thought were distinguishing? Support the idea that it was one, individual fish?

HOGAN: There was something about it that did. I mean obviously the size of it ...

CRAWFORD: Yeah, but size alone is iffy - but it’s one factor. Anything like a distinctive mark or something?

HOGAN: I can’t identify what that was, but some of these guys had a way that they thought they could identify it, whether it was nicks out of the dorsal fin, or whatever

CRAWFORD: Was there any indication of whether that Ruapuke Shark was a loner, or if there were other White Pointers around?

HOGAN: It was noted as being one. And that was something that I always was a little bit interested about. Was it an older, geriatric type of Shark that was just winding out the end of his days with easy food? Was it a matriarch? Or a patriarch? Was it the leader of the pack, so that it got its feed first?

CRAWFORD: Or was it a prime location for some reason? 

HIOGAN: The only thing I knew for sure was - big White Pointer, Ruapuke Island, let's not go surfing there. We put it off limits.

CRAWFORD: So, you have never boarded Ruapuke?

HOGAN: Never. 

CRAWFORD: In general, is Ruapuke off limits for all boarders? 

HOGAN: I wouldn’t say that anyone said that specifically.

CRAWFORD: But do you know anybody who has surfed it?

HOGAN: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Anything else potentially important in terms of seasonality for White Pointers in the Foveaux Strait, Southland, Stewart Island region? 

HOGAN: When I think about it, there is more of a consciousness around Sharks as the water warms up. There's a thought that the colder water ... they tend to not be here during those really cold months of the year. That might lead itself right back to why the older generations aren’t so concerned as well. But from my experience, it wasn’t so much a time of year, but there has been some connection to warmer water. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. In terms of White Pointers and their feeding, what do you think these Sharks are feeding on?

HOGAN: Seals. Majority would say, I think. 

CRAWFORD: From your first-hand knowledge as a boarder, on this side of the Strait, where are the major Seal colonies? 

HOGAN: That’s a really good point. I can think of other Seal colonies in New Zealand - on the West coast, on the East coast. But I can’t actually think of one area in this particular area that I can say there’s a huge concentration of Seals.

CRAWFORD: And you’ve surfed all of this coastline ... 

HOGAN: Yeah, I’ve surfed all of it. I’ve seen some Seals here and there.

CRAWFORD: I’m talking about breeding colonies, hundreds of animals.

HOGAN: I can’t think of one, no. Not like I can on the West coast. Like up round Big Bay and Martins Bay.

CRAWFORD: What about Seals over at Stewart Island, during the time that you've spent there as a dinghy boy?

HOGAN: I’ve seen so many Seals on Stewart Island. Very rarely we would be in a bay, and there’s not Seals. 

CRAWFORD: You brought up your experience in Fiordland again - and I don’t want to miss that.  I think you said those surfing trips were once a year, maybe twice a year, over a period of 5 to 10 years or so?

HOGAN: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you surfed in Fiordland, did you ever see any White Pointers there?

HOGAN: No.

CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear about other people, other boarders seeing White Pointers?

HOGAN: Yeah, certainly. 

CRAWFORD: Stories about White Pointers in the sounds - or out further? 

HOGAN: Generally, on the outer coast, outside of the sounds. Round the mouths of the sounds. 

CRAWFORD: Do you recall any stories of interactions between boarders and White Pointers?

HOGAN: No. 

CRAWFORD: One of the other things that you said before - something about big wave surfing. That was offshore?

HOGAN: Yeah, generally offshore.

CRAWFORD: With surfers being towed out somewhere?

HOGAN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly where?

HOGAN: There’s some in the Catlins, there’s Skeleton Point. 

CRAWFORD: How far offshore is that? 

HOGAN: That’s reasonably close, we do take jet skis out there, but you can paddle out because it's just 200 metres. 

CRAWFORD: Not very far.

HOGAN: No. The other spot that became quite popular for big wave surfing - I surfed it only a couple of times - was Centre Island in Foveaux Strait. Just off the other side of that, it was told to us by a lighthouse keeper, he said "Oh, I’ve seen some of the biggest waves I’ve ever seen in my life - breaking just out there." He actually went on to become quite a well-known Dunedin surfer. 

CRAWFORD: What was his name?

HOGAN: Dr. Surf at Hydro. Rod Rust. I think it was Rod - or maybe his business partner at Hydro. Yeah, one of the two. He was the lighthouse keeper, and he was the one that identified this wave. So, we used to take a boat out there on the challenge.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: What your first memory of hearing about White Pointers? 

HOGAN: I think my first memory was my Mum mentioning that she loved the sea and surf life saving and me surfing. But she was always concerned about Sharks, and she encouraged me to avoid certain times of the day, and certain areas. So really my first memory of Sharks was through my Mum. It wasn't through any direct contact, it was really through Mum saying "I don’t want you surfing in the mornings."

CRAWFORD: Where did your Mum's concern come from?

HOGAN: Mum’s concern came from her being involved in surf life saving in Dunedin, and being present during two fatal Shark attacks. She was surf life saving over at Murderers for the third attack, but she was actually present at St. Clair, at St. Kilda for those Shark attacks. I think she registered or connected those times of day to those Shark attacks.

CRAWFORD: That’s a very personal association on her part. At that age, what had she told you about the White Pointer attacks on the Otago Peninsula?

HOGAN: That’s an interesting point. It never felt like she was trying to instill fear or anything in me. It wasn’t that. The message wasn’t of terror, or designed to make me really scared or anything. It was really just a warning, and a preference to a time of day in terms of being in the water. And just some of the locations that she felt were more dangerous than others. You know, rocky points, places like that.

CRAWFORD: What specifically did she say about the time of day?

HOGAN: She just always maintained early morning and late evening, dawn and dusk. 

CRAWFORD: Dawn and dusk were times to avoid being in the water. Not necessarily boarding, but swimming as well?

HOGAN: Yeah, she just meant in the water. 

CRAWFORD: Did she make the association with White Pointers specifically, or that it was because of the Sharks generally?

HOGAN: I don’t specifically remember her saying White Pointers, but she’s a clever woman. That being that, she was there during the attacks that took place in Dunedin - and they were from White Pointers. And she was aware of White Pointers being present in and around Dunedin waters. 

CRAWFORD: Did she tell you about her direct experience there - when you were that age?

HOGAN: I can’t honestly say. She maybe told me in the depth that she now does, but I couldn’t say.

CRAWFORD: I suspect that as you grew older, at some point in time she told you pretty much the whole story.

HOGAN: Yeah, you're right. I think it was when I was sitting there as a teenager at a friend's place, and she might have re-enacting and telling the story. And I think that’s when I realized the detail that Mum had. 

CRAWFORD: What did she ultimately tell you about her experiences?

HOGAN: Mum’s quite a succinct person. She doesn’t say too much about it. But she certainly said that it changed her perception of our coastal waters, especially around Dunedin. But she also attached Oamaru and some of the surrounding areas to that. 

CRAWFORD: Lets go through them, to the best of your ability. 

HOGAN: Well, I just touched on it with her briefly this morning, and going way back into my history, but she said she was there for the attack at St. Clair, it was an early morning session. She seems to think it was somewhere between 7:30 and 9:00 in the morning - she couldn’t quite pin it. But it was certainly early-ish in the morning, when it took place. She doesn’t really recall the weather being any extreme. It was reasonably still, the swell size was nothing special, it was nothing huge or small. It was an average day, she just remembers it being quite an average day. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year?

HOGAN: That was a good question. She was trying to recall the time of year, but she couldn’t accurately.

CRAWFORD: Was there an event going on?

HOGAN: Yes. It was either a local competition, or just a club competition.

CRAWFORD: For the Surf Life Saving Club?

HOGAN: Yeah. And this was the St. Clair club.

CRAWFORD: Was she an eye witness, or was she there in proximity?

HOGAN: She said she was getting changed, and then there was a lot of yelling. She just really remembers a lot of yelling, and she said there was quite a substantial amount of panic. 

CRAWFORD: From her being in proximity immediately after, was there anything about the nature of the interaction. Did anybody see the Shark in that case?

HOGAN: Not that she mentioned, no. He was free swimming, or maybe had one of those flotation devices with him. 

CRAWFORD: What else did you learn about the attack?

HOGAN: That one was fatal. 

CRAWFORD: Was the body recovered?

HOGAN: That one ... I can't say whether it was or wasn’t. I remember it was fatal, because that’s why she talks about it. But whether anyone saw the body - no, I couldn’t say. 

CRAWFORD: Anything else about that event?

HOGAN: No. 

CRAWFORD: That was the first event. What did she say about the second event?

HOGAN: I think the way she tells the story is that it was maybe the same summer, or the same year.

CRAWFORD: Nearby?

HOGAN: Yes. 

CRAWFORD: Describe what she recounts from the second incident.

HOGAN: Surf life Saving, and I believe this one was in the evening. She said that it was quite a large group of them there as well. So, whether it was a club meeting or whatever, but it was some sort of organized event. Anyway, one of the surf life savers swam with a belt out ...

CRAWFORD: This was a Surf Life Saving belt? Attached by line to a spool?

HOGAN: Exactly. To a spool, it had floatation around the waist ...

CRAWFORD: There were people on the beach, manning the spool?

HOGAN: Yes. And his job was to get out there and connect with the person in trouble or whatever. Now, I think there was some amount of splashing, and sort of some serious pulling went on - on the spool, on the line, and they became aware that something was happening.

CRAWFORD: They had lost visual sight of the surf life saver?

HOGAN: I think they had. She certainly didn’t see anything. 

CRAWFORD: Where in proximity was she when this happened? 

HOGAN: She was actually up in the club rooms. I think literally looking down onto the beach. She did say something about she felt that there was a level of splashing, and a certain amount of tug went on, onto the spool. Yeah, that’s what she seems to remember. And then they decided to wind the spool back in. And when that was wound back in, he was not on the end of the line. And there was some amount of damage to the flotation belt which had been attached to his body. 

CRAWFORD: Do you recall her saying whether the body was recovered?

HOGAN: That one, no I don’t recall either. I never actually asked that question, I don’t think. 

CRAWFORD: Did anybody actually see the Shark? Or was there any means to identify what species of Shark it might have been?

HOGAN: I don’t know whether there was any kind of way that they defined ... or whether she was actually aware that it was a White Pointer. Knowing Mum, she wouldn’t have made that assumption. She would have waited until there was some sort of scientific information, or a fact became apparent. But yeah, she does talk about it as a White Pointer attack - so I assume at some point it was identified. I think if there was damage that she says, any sort of marking on the belt - it may have allowed scientific investigation.

CRAWFORD: A couple of very traumatic incidences where your Mum was in close proximity. Was there a third incident? 

HOGAN: Yeah. She talks about the third one. She was there for the two, but not the third - which was at Aramoana. Now that may not have been fatal, but she does talk about there having been three attacks during her time.

CRAWFORD: What, if anything, did she recall hearing about the Aramoana incident?

HOGAN: I think it was just through news and word of mouth. She was not there. And that it was supposedly a White Pointer as well. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. A few years later she finds herself as a young Mum in Oamaru with a kid who’s taken to the water. And she conveys across the generation from her experience and everything she knows - to her son. What were the most important things she was trying to get across?

HOGAN: Be aware. Location. And time of day. 

CRAWFORD: As you said - dawn and dusk, stay away from the water at those times. All year round? Or just in the summer? Or a particular season?

HOGAN: I think she talked about that. It’s funny actually - it was probably more of a summer thing. She never seemed to be as concerned about it during winter. Maybe, but it was never voiced.

CRAWFORD: Ok - thank you for sharing that. Did the old-timers here along the Southland coast tell you anything about seeing White Pointers?

HOGAN: The only person I think I ever had a conversation with. that positively identified a White Pointer was Puke Pou. And the reason I can probably chalk that up is because Puke doesn’t talk shit. He’s pretty real. You know, sometimes experiences get blown out of proportion - people see things, and it changes and evolves in their mind as time goes on. But with Puke, you can guarantee a certain level of accuracy. And he was the only one that I know of, Puke. Oh, and my other friend Rob who was diving. 

CRAWFORD: So, two different events? Or two different people in one event?

HOGAN: Yeah, two different events.

CRAWFORD: Alright let's talk about Puke experience first. Tell me what you remember of what he told you.

HOGAN: From my recollection, he saw it in Garden Bay - which is the bay before Porridge. We’re talking Pahia Point, and there are two bays in here. One is Porridge, which is ... it’s not a very accurate map but just a Bay before Porridge. 

CRAWFORD: How long ago was this? 

HOGAN: About ten years ago. Yeah. So, this is Porridge, this one here - on the Eastern side of that point. And this is Garden Bay. We access Porridge over this hill, on the walk over. But it was actually in here that he spotted it in this particular area here. 

CRAWFORD: Puke was onshore, elevated, looking over the water? 

HOGAN: Yeah. He said he was walking around the point. And he spotted it off in this particular area here. He said that it caught him by surprise - that he never felt that they were really there, but this made him realize that they really were. He did surf that day - he continued on and surfed the point next door. Obviously, he didn’t feel that he was in any danger from that. But he felt that it was a pretty large animal, he was quite confident. 

CRAWFORD: What was the animal doing?

HOGAN: I don’t really remember him saying. He didn’t say necessarily whether it had surfaced, or it was sitting idle, or whatever.

CRAWFORD: How far offshore? 

HOGAN: He seemed to think that he could identify it, so you know you’re probably talking only a couple of hundred metres. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That’s one account. 

HOGAN: So, that’s a story from [Pukey] which I always remembered as being in this area, which made me think that there are White Pointers along there. 

CRAWFORD: You said another friend had seen a White Pointer down around this region?

HOGAN: Yeah, my friend Rob Emmett has.

CRAWFORD: Where and when was that?

HOGAN: He’s a Pāua diver. I actually was trying to think of the location because he has told me, and I’ll get back to you on that too because I don’t want to concern that right now. I think it’s somewhere in the South Coast area.

CRAWFORD: Tell me what you recall from what Rob told you.

HOGAN: He was reasonably deep.

CRAWFORD: Freediving for Pāuas?

HOGAN: Freediving. And he said he was reasonably deep - you know, something around 30 feet.

CRAWFORD: Rob is a commercial Pāua diver? An experienced commercial Pāua diver?

HOGAN: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Where’s he working out of? Bluff or Riverton?

HOGAN: Riverton, generally. So, as this story goes, he was in a hole - literally they go into guts and narrow ravines to get where the Pāua sit. They often sit on overhangs, and along the walls. He was in this hole, and backed out, and as he backed out of the hole, he actually bumped into something. He said he knew almost instantly that it wasn’t a rock, it wasn’t a piece of weed, that he had bumped into something solid. Apparently, he turned, and there it was - a White Pointer.

CRAWFORD: The head of a White Pointer? Or its side or tail?

HOGAN: I don’t know. He just said he bumped, and as soon as he saw it, he actually exhaled quite dramatically in the moment of realization, in the moment of fear, I suppose. But then realized he didn’t want to move too quickly as well. He said he just slowly kicked on his back away from the Shark, and it seemed to continue off. He seemed to think it was maybe interested in the smell, but it moved off reasonably smoothly and calmly he seemed to think.

Copyright © 2019 Chris Hogan and Steve Crawford