Brett Hamilton

YOB: 1964
Experience: Commercial Fisherman
Regions: Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait
Interview Location: Halfmoon Bay, Stewart Island, NZ
Interview Date: 21/22/23 November 2015
Post Date: 30 March 2020; Copyright © 2020 Brett Hamilton and Steve Crawford

1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS

CRAWFORD: Let's start at the beginning, Brett. Where and when were you born?

HAMILTON: Born in Invercargill. 1964.

CRAWFORD: You moved here to Stewart Island fairly early? 

HAMILTON: My family's always been here. 

CRAWFORD: You grew up on the Island?

HAMILTON: Yeah. As did my Father and my Grandfather. 

CRAWFORD: When was the first time that you started to spend a significant amount of time on the water?

HAMILTON: Basically, with my Grandfather and Father. From the time I was seven, eight years old - I’d do every school holidays on boats.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you say that you spent time out of school - I'm guessing evenings, weekends, holidays? You'd be on or around the water?

HAMILTON: Yep. Dinghies, round to the beach, round to the wharf. Jumpin off the wharf. Sailing. We had a little P-class sailing yacht in the bay.

CRAWFORD: When you say 'the bay' - where do you mean?

HAMILTON: Halfmoon Bay. Right here.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, the Bay was your playground.

HAMILTON: Yep. A little bit in Paterson Inlet. All up through here. But basically, Halfmoon Bay. Initially, when we were five, six, seven, eight. When we were probably age ten to twelve, me and my older Brother, we had Crayfish pots in Halfmoon Bay.

CRAWFORD: You were fishing your own gear?

HAMILTON: From point to point, in the Kelp patches. We had a little six horse outboard and a fibreglass dinghy. 

CRAWFORD: I think we can summarize - you were on the water, doing a bunch of different things, from the get-go.

HAMITLON: From the start, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Let's just list the different activities. You've already mentioned swimming, boating, sailing. Were you doing any snorkeling?

HAMILTON: Yeah, we had wetsuits and snorkels. 

CRAWFORD: Did you do any spearfishing? 

HAMILTON: No, we weren’t big on spearfishing in those early days

CRAWFORD: Did you do any Pāua diving?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Collected Pāua, Kina.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Then, starting around the age of twelve ...

HAMILTON: We had nets. 

CRAWFORD: Setnets?

HAMILTON: Setnets, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Codpots?

HAMILTON: Craypots. We didn't have Codpots then. We went spearfishing - we’d use a glass box and spear Flounder.

CRAWFORD: A glass box? 

HAMILTON: Yeah. A little square box with a glass bottom. You looked over the side, and through the glass, and you could see. You could spear Flounder.

CRAWFORD: You were in maybe a metre of a water, at most?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: No scubadiving at that point?

HAMILTON: No scuba.

CRAWFORD: Have you ever scubadived?

HAMILTON: I have scuba’d once. But that was just because I got irritated that my mate couldn’t find any Crayfish. So, I just ripped it off him, and flung it on, and went down and had a go. It was a bit tricky actually, but I managed. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: But you also spent a lot of time on the water - boating, to get from A to B. Did you ever take people on charters or tours or anything?

HAMILTON: I have done that latterly.

CRAWFORD: During the first part, as kids from eight onward - you mentioned sailing?

HAMILTON: We had a P-class sailing dinghy from about eight to about fifteen. 

CRAWFORD: But you also had power boats?

HAMILTON: We had a dinghy and outboards. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. As a kid, did you ever spend any significant amount of time on anybody’s commercial fishing operation? 

HAMILTON: Not until I was probably at high school. Coming back to home for holidays, and working for guys in holidays. Christmas holidays, it was like six weeks.

CRAWFORD: Let's use that as a natural break point, then. It’s a substantial time on the water, but it also means that it’s a different focus. It’s not a couple of kids just dicking around, you were out there to make money. But as kids in Halfmoon Bay, it's still your playground, it's still where you hung out - the entire bay was yours. Once you started fishing commercially with somebody else, I’m presuming that you were working outside of the Bay?

HAMILTON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: What were you fishing for? 

HAMILTON: Crayfish. 

CRAWFORD: How big was the boat, roughly?

HAMILTON: 45 feet. 

CRAWFORD: Who were you fishing for?

HAMITLON: A couple of guys. [Phillip Ballantyne??] on the Ajax, and Peter Leask on the Enterprise. 

CRAWFORD: Crayfishing exclusively, or also some other things? 

HAMILTON: No, just Crayfishing. 

CRAWFORD: What time of year?

HAMILTON: Christmastime. Our summer - December, January. 

CRAWFORD: And what region, roughly? 

HAMILTON: Broad Bay. And round the Cape area. And the Snares Islands. Both sides.

CRAWFORD: Which islands?

HAMILTON: The Snares. That's the first sub-Antarctic islands, on the way south. 

CRAWFORD: On the way down to the Auckland Islands?

HAMILTON: Yeah. About halfway. 

CRAWFORD: Wow. It surprises me a little bit that when you seriously started fishing commercially, it was at the opposite of the Island, plus beyond. It wasn’t just out here in the Titi Islands, or on the nearby northeast shore of Stewart Island.

HAMILTON: Yeah. Well, it was a job opportunity, and you take it. 

CRAWFORD: But that means when you were gone, you were gone for weeks at a time?

HAMILTON: We were doing 10-day trips with Peter. 

CRAWFORD: Entirely Crayfishing?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And this was before the regulations on live Crayfishing, so you were processing right then?

HAMILTON: Processing. Tailing the fish at sea, and freezing them. So, you could stay away, it didn’t matter. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That puts a very different regional perspective on things. That was for one year? Or did you do that for several years, during your Christmas breaks? 

HAMILTON: A couple of Christmas’ for Peter. And it was just a short stint with Phillip - just for one holiday period, I think. 

CRAWFORD: So, by the time you were finished with that, you were around 19, 20? 

HAMILTON: With Peter, I was about 19. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Does that roughly represent the bulk of time that you would have spent on the water, during those years? Or were you doing other things on and around the coast as well?

HAMILTON: At home in other holidays ... around Paterson Inlet Floundering, Scallop diving, gathering Mussels, getting a feed of Pāuas. In and around the Halfmoon Bay, Paterson Inlet area.

CRAWFORD: What season for those activities?

HAMILTON: All year-round. We were always on the ocean. If we weren’t killing Possums, we were killing Fish. 

CRAWFORD: What type of boat would you have been using in those days? Still a dinghy? 

HAMILTON: We always had a dinghy. Whether it was in a dinghy off our Father's boat, or in a dinghy off some friend's Father's boat. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That takes us up to you being 20. What happened then? 

HAMILTON: Then I go away. After high school I go away to Central Otago for a year, farming. And then into Canterbury, farming for a year.

CRAWFORD: Completely off the water for a spell?

HAMILTON: Pretty much. For about three years. 

CRAWFORD: I’m interested. For a guy that grew up on the water ... and then you find yourself farming for three years. What was the motivation?

HAMILTON: I wanted to come straight back to fishing. But my Father wanted me to go and do something else, just to get off the Island. You need to go and look at something of the world. And I was playing rugby, chasing girls, drinking beer. [both chuckle] So, I went away and did that for three years. Blew my shoulder out - dislocated my shoulder at the end of the rugby season on the third year. Came home, recuperated for a couple of months. And then as I was recuperating, just started doing a bit of work. I worked a bit with my Father, and then just basically jumped on full-bore. 

CRAWFORD: The work with your Father, what was he doing?

HAMILTON: Blue Cod and Crayfish. 

CRAWFORD: What regions, roughly?

HAMILTON: At that time of his career, we were down at the Cape - in this area here. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. That's another natural breakpoint when you came back and started working with your Dad. And that was full-time Codpotting, Craypotting - generally around the southwest corner of the Island?

HAMILTON: Yeah. I did do a season with [Jerry Field??]. We were working at the top end around here, the Ruggedies, Smokey, and a little bit in the middle out here. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. Roughly, how long did you work for your Father?

HAMILTON: I worked for Dad for about probably four years, full-on. As soon as I got my Skipper's ticket, which was probably about a year or two after I started, I was about 21 I think. I would take the boat Blue Codding in the off-season, which would be April, May, June, July. And then Dad would Crayfish, and I would be the deckie. And then we took another guy on, the operation got bigger.

CRAWFORD: And when you were fishing with him, it was southwest corner of Stewart Island?

HAMILTON: Yeah. When I was Blue Codding myself, it was basically in this Foveaux Strait triangle. Saddle Point to Ruapuke. Basically learning in that triangle. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, that’s good. Was that pretty much what you did until what? Late 20s, maybe 30?

HAMILTON: No, no. When I was about 24, my older Brother got killed in a car accident in Auckland. He had just come out of the Navy. We went to Auckland, sorted everything out up there, had the funeral, came home with him, with his ashes. We did one trip away to get the gear ... and the Old Man's heart just wasn’t in it. I said "Well, I’m taking over. You stay at home." So consequently, with my mate [Gibby??], he was the Third Hand on the boat at the time, we were mates for years ... we went down there. It was in the summer, the fishing was good, and we loaded up. The Old Man decided "Well, he’s doing alright. I’m doing alright at the same time." So, he never went back at all. 

CRAWFORD: And you were now the Skipper?

HAMILTON: I’m about 23, 24, I'm the Skipper. Yeah. And we just boxed on. 

CRAWFORD: You and Gibby? 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Which boat were you on at the time? 

HAMILTON: The Huia. A 46-foot, double-ended wooden boat. 

CRAWFORD: You were using it exclusively for potting?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Cod and Cray?

HAMILTON: Both. Full-bore on both. If we weren’t Craying, we were Codding. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a natural break, for sure. What region? Once again, seasonally down here?

HAMILTON: Crayfishing, we were basing ourselves at Moggy Island. And we had pots all around the [Pohowatai's??] on the outside. That was where we did our Crayfish seasons. All out there, from August, September, October, November, December.

CRAWFORD: So, the Southern Titi Islands, on the outside?

HAMILTON: On the outside, yep. 

CRAWFORD: Crayfishing. And then ...

HAMILTON: Blue Codding - absolutely everywhere. There wouldn’t be a harbour that we hadn’t stayed at or fished from.

CRAWFORD: And the rest of the year, Codding everywhere? 

HAMILTON: Everywhere, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: From the time that you became the Skipper, and you were running the boat, how long did that go until? Or is it still the case?

HAMILTON: Later on, we started working with our pots a bit closer to home. We got the fish early at Lords River, you see. We’d be working down here, and would be hearing stories about the fisherman on the east side. 

CRAWFORD: You were Crayfishing the Southern Titi Islands, but then you were hearing about Crayfishing over here on the east side of the Island?

HAMILTON: We knew. The fish were always earlier. 

CRAWFORD: The Crayfish or the Cod?

HAMILTON: The Crayfish. So, we thought "Ah well. We’ll start here, and then move round to here later on." And we started doing that - we had a few at Lords River. And then we started fishing a bit of Broad Bay. And then we were sort of backwards and forwards around the corner. 

CRAWFORD: Were you following the Crayfish? Were they migrating?

HAMILTON: They were migrating, but we didn’t follow them as such. Because the fish started potting better and earlier in these places. We’d go there first, just get a bit of cream. And the fish are always better down this area, down the Cape.

CRAWFORD: Why?

HAMILTON: It’s just bigger. It’s bigger and rougher, deeper. Just, yeah. So, we’d always end up there, but fish started later. 

CRAWFORD: Right. These were overnight trips?

HAMILTON: Oh, we’d still stay overnight. Any excuse. 

CRAWFORD: But it was relatively close. Closer, anyways.

HAMILTON: Yeah. It's probably a couple of hours to get home. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That type of fishing pattern, that started when roughly?

HAMILTON: In my late 20s. 

CRAWFORD: And it ran that way until about when?

HAMILTON: Until maybe in my late 30s. 

CRAWFORD: About a decade?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And then what changed?

HAMILTON: My boys got to high school age. And the partner at the time, didn’t want to send them away to boarding school. Like I went to boarding school ...

CRAWFORD: Remind me, where was that?

HAMILTON: Invercargill. So, we shifted off the island for a couple of years. 

CRAWFORD: Where did you go?

HAMILTON: Invercargill. And I tried living out of Invercargill and fishing. It was alright.

CRAWFORD: Fishing out of Bluff? 

HAMILTON: No. Just fly into the Bay and…

CRAWFORD: Oh really? Fly from Invercargill to Halfmoon Bay?

HAMILTON: Yeah. It was only twenty minutes.

CRAWFORD: Fair enough, but I mean that's still a haul. There’s time, and expense. 

HAMILTON: But we didn’t sell our property on Stewart Island. So, we always had a base here. 

CRAWFORD: How long did you do that? The commute?

HAMILTON: Only for a year. And then we sold the boat, and didn’t fish for a couple of years at all.

CRAWFORD: You were off the water basically?

HAMILTON: Off the water, yeah. That's when the Crayfish quotas were already out. So, we had an income - we leased the quota we had. And I was coaching rugby for the kids, and just hanging out. The high school years. Well pre-high school for one of them, the youngest one. Yeah, just kicking round with the kids, really. 

CRAWFORD: That was for a couple of years. Then what changed?

HAMILTON: I got sick of Invercargill. And I wanted to come home. So, I did. 

CRAWFORD: You came home. You had sold your boat, previously. But you still had quota - Crayfish quota and Blue Cod quota as well?

HAMILTON: No. Just the Crays.

CRAWFORD: You had Cray quota, you came home. What did you do then?

HAMILTON: I bought another boat. I came home with a different partner, and we bought a different boat.

CRAWFORD: What size?

HAMILTON: Smaller boat. The Francis II was the name of the boat, the one we own now. A much smaller boat. The boats that I was fishing further South were bigger boats, 55-foot, one of them.

CRAWFORD: The Francis II, it was a two-man crew?

HAMILTON: Two-man crew, yeah.

CRAWFORD: What size?

HAMILTON: 40-foot.

CRAWFORD: Oh, so still a relatively big vessel.

HAMILTON: No, not big. Not as far as fishing around southern Stewart Island. 

CRAWFORD: Right. But completely appropriate for fishing along the northeast coast?

HAMILTON: Yeah. I’ve taken it down south, but it would become like a dinghy fairly quickly down there, if it really started to blow. I’ve been down there on a trip when there was a great big high over the area. Basically, the boat that I’ve got now is for this triangle. Foveaux Strait, Smokey through to Ruapuke, to Lords River.

CRAWFORD: And along the coastline.

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Including the Northern Titi Islands?

HAMILTON: Everywhere through there. 

CRAWFORD: And if I heard you right, that's pretty much what you’ve been doing to the present day?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: The Francis II. Crayfishing and Codpotting?

HAMILTON: Yeah, and a little bit of charter work.

CRAWFORD: What kind of charters?

HAMILTON: Fishing charters. 

CRAWFORD: Ok we’ll get to that in a bit. But Crayfishing, it was still on that seasonal basis, three or four months a year?

HAMILTON: Two months, the way it’s going. 

CRAWFORD: And Codpotting for the rest? 

HAMILTON: Basically the rest, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Any setnetting at all?

HAMILTON: No.

CRAWFORD: Ok. When did you start doing fishing charters? Were these charters for recreational fishing, or eco-charters, or what?

HAMILTON: A little bit of both. I was doing a bit of bird-watching charters, but it’s basically been Blue Cod fishing charters. And that’s just solely out of Halfmoon Bay, around the Titi Islands. Half-day trips or full-day trips with eight, ten people.

CRAWFORD: Not Paterson Inlet?

HAMILTON: No, I never go in there. 

CRAWFORD: So, the coastline immediately adjacent to Stewart Island, and out to the Titi islands. What season for those charters, roughly?

HAMILTON: It’s pretty much the summer. December, January, February, March.

CRAWFORD: When did that start, those charters?

HAMILTON: Four years ago. 

CRAWFORD: So, roughly 2011 to the present. In terms of relative contribution, how much of your time do you spend doing the charters versus how much time Codpotting? Is that like 20% charters, 80% Codpotting?

HAMILTON: No. Probably 5% charters, 95% Codpotting. It’s just a little top up in the Summer.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you ever do any commercial Pāua diving?

HAMILTON: Only a couple of days for a guy. 

CRAWFORD: Beyond having fun as a kid, did you ever spend significant time free-diving or spearfishing?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Any time working the other side of Foveaux Strait?

HAMILTON: I had a couple of trips with a fisherman when I was about 19 or 20. Up to Fiordland, up to Preservation. 

CRAWFORD: Codpotting? Crayfishing?

HAMITLON: Crayfishing. That was the guy Jerry Field that I was working for up in the Smokey, Ruggedy, same guy. We made a swing into Fiordland. 

CRAWFORD: Was that for a lark or what? That’s a long way to go. 

HAMILTON: It was just where he was working at the time. Just took some gear up there and worked away.

CRAWFORD: That was pre-quota?

HAMILTON: It was pre-quota, but it was just where he wanted to work at the time. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Southern end of Fiordland. How far up did you get?

HAMILTON: Just Preservation Inlet here, this one. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other experience north of Foveaux Strait?

HAMILTON: When the old man sold the Huia, I delivered the boat from Halfmoon Bay to Picton. Just up the coast. And when I bought the Francis, I brought her home from Kaikoura to Lyttelton by myself. Picked up my son Morgan and his mate [Reese??], and we brought it home the rest of the way. 

CRAWFORD: And you’ve done a couple of shuttles down south? 

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Campbell Island? Auckland Island?

HAMILTON: Auckland Islands. Sailed down there in a 57-foot steel ketch about six years ago with a couple of mates. Just for a look. Just because we could. 

CRAWFORD: That would have taken a week or two?

HAMILTON: Yeah. It might have taken us about 72 hours to get there. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Chatham Island?

HAMILTON: No. A few mates out there, but I haven’t been.

CRAWFORD: Anything with the Tuna fishery, or anything like that?

HAMILTON: No, no. 

2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS

CRAWFORD: In general, to what extent has Māori culture and knowledge affected your understanding of New Zealand marine ecology?

HAMILTON: Maybe Medium. Initially growing up, I had very little to do with the traditional side of things. From about 18 years old onwards, considerably more understanding and traditional links, family links. But with education, just more respect for their culture. With my line of work, what I was doing with my fishing - getting to know a few of the Elders that go Muttonbirding down at the islands. And a few Marae visits and that. So yeah, it’s a bigger part of our society than what I had realized when I was younger. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's do the same thing with Science culture and knowledge. How much have you learned about this ecosystem from Science?

HAMILTON: Well, High to Very High now. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you say that?

HAMILTON: Just because of what has evolved over the last three or four years. I’ve read a lot more, taken more notice of what everyone's saying, really. It’s a big issue over here. So, I’ve been taking a lot more notice of it, and listening. Everyone’s got opinions. And everybody's got little databases, like Clinton's. You’ve got to have respect for Peter and Mike Haines for doing what they’re doing. If I was in their shoes, and it was my livelihood and my little industry, I’d protect it hand and tooth like they are. So, all that thrown together over the last three or four years. A lot of people, we’ve all taken a lot more interest in the Science - especially from Clinton, from TV shows, done outside reading. 

CRAWFORD: What are the most important things that you know because Clinton brought them in to the Stewart Island community?

HAMILTON: The number of individual Sharks out there.

CRAWFORD: Way less, or way more, than what had been thought?

HAMILTON: Way more than what I could ever imagine. 

CRAWFORD: Based on what he’s saying, roughly what are you now guessing is the number of individual White Pointers out there in this region?

HAMILTON: Well last count there, they were saying 40, 50 plus. And just in this little area.

CRAWFORD: In the Titi Island chain. And that blew you away. Ok. What’s another important thing you've learned from the Science knowledge system about these White Pointers?

HAMILTON: The migration, the tagging, satellite tagging. Just amazing. Just incredible they could do it even. And it’s incredible the results that they got. Where these Sharks travel to.

3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE

 CRAWFORD: When is the first time you remember hearing about White Pointers?

HAMILTON: I can remember as a kid - I would have been maybe five, six, seven years old - being down at Halfmoon Bay, and there had been a Shark caught in a net in the Bay

CRAWFORD: A setnet?

HAMILTON: A setnet, a Shark net.

CRAWFORD: That was pre-protection. That setnet was designed and deployed to catch White Pointers? 

HAMILTON: Well, that was what happened in the old days. When a Shark turned up in the bay, they put a net out.

CRAWFORD: To catch it.

HAMILTON: To remove it. To take it out of our way.

CRAWFORD: It wasn’t a commercial venture?

HAMILTON: No, no. It was just so the kids could do what we do. And I remembered this big weird tractor pulling this massive beast up onto the grass right in front of the pub. And as kids, you know - what do you do? You get a stick, and you go climb on it, and be the harpooner. You know? It was an enormous beast. I think my Mum still has old black and white photographs. 

CRAWFORD: I’ve been told by some people that there were Shark fisherman, White Pointer fisherman, who actually targeted them for liver, teeth, jaws, and in some cases for the flesh. But your experience was different. It wasn’t catching a White Pointer as part of commercial fishing. It was specifically to remove that animal from the Bay?

HAMILTON: As far as I know. It happened several times over my young life, I can remember. When a White Pointer turned up, out go the nets, and they get caught.

CRAWFORD: And that’s just the way things went. Mid 1960s.

HAMILTON: Oh, '70s, '80s - right through. Until '92 or '94, when the protection came in. Something like that. That’s what happened. Every time.

CRAWFORD: So, it was standard. And it wouldn’t happen necessarily every year, but it wouldn't be unusual maybe once every five years - something like that?

HAMILTON: At least, I think yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, a White Pointer gets spotted, the nets go out. At five years old, maybe you don’t remember stuff like this, but in general when the nets went out, did those nets consistently come back in with a White Pointer?

HAMILTON: I can only remember a few times, and I think they basically caught them straight away. 

CRAWFORD: So, in that sense, the efficiency of the gear was pretty high. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Alright. That’s the first time you saw one. What was the common knowledge about the White Pointers? Did you hear from the old-timers or from people in general? Were there patterns to when they came? Or did they say there was anything about White Pointer behaviour that you should know about? I mean, you and your Brother were out there - did they give you any advice about what to watch for?

HAMILTON: No. To be fair, I can’t remember seeing one. Or hearing warnings in those early years, when we were doing it by ourselves. No. 

CRAWFORD: So, you never saw any White Pointers when you and your Brother or your mates were hanging around Halfmoon Bay? You didn’t see any back then?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Even though people knew, obviously, they were out there. 

HAMILTON: At some point, coming and going. Yeah. Most definitely. I didn’t see a White Pointer myself until I was probably in my mid-30s.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Here’s where we build on that first part of the interview. During your kid years, you were mostly running around Halfmoon Bay?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Halfmoon Bay, Paterson Inlet. 

CRAWFORD: Right, so that region. As a kid, as a teenager, you never saw one. But you occasionally saw one that had been caught in a Shark net and brought in. But before we leave those early days ... the old-timers, had they said anything at all about White Pointers?

HAMILTON: I heard Pāua divers talking about always being scared to dive at the back of Codfish. And they were scared of the Waituna area. I think a lot of it was because many of the Pāua beds that they were diving were quite offshore. Shallows run out a wee bit, and the Pāuas run out a wee bit. So, they could be 100 metres, 200 metres off the rocks. Basically, they haven’t got their backs to the rocks, you know?

CRAWFORD: It was 360 degrees that they were exposed? 

HAMILTON: Yeah. I heard them talking about that.

CRAWFORD: That’s important. That’s a perceived risk by vulnerability. Was the nature of the Sharks any different over there, around Codfish? Were the animals different in their behaviour, or anything else that you heard?

HAMILTON: Not that I knew of. I mean, they weren’t sniffing round the boat or anything like that, I think. 

CRAWFORD: You didn’t see any White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay. And you didn’t see any White Pointers in Paterson Inlet?

HAMILTON: No.

CRAWFORD: Were there other people who you knew about, who had seen White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay? Well, you’ve already said there was at least one, because somebody would have seen one that would have triggered the Sharknets to go out. But did you know anybody else who had seen them anywhere around Halfmoon Bay or Paterson Inlet?

HAMILTON: Not that I can remember being told about it, at that time. No. I think they were seen by the Cod fisherman that were cleaning their catches. 

CRAWFORD: Were they cleaning their catch outside of the Bays?

HAMILTON: That’s more than I could tell you. I don’t really know.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about the Titi Islands? As a kid, did you ever spend any time over there? 

HAMILTON: Not as a kid, no. 

CRAWFORD: Was that the kind of thing that your parents or whomever would have said "You can play around the Bay, but don’t go across the Passage"?

HAMILTON: Oh, yeah. We knew we had some boundaries. It’s a massive long way out there for a wee 6 horsepower dinghy. We had boundaries. But you knew you were pushing your luck, not only your luck with your parents, but you were just pushing your luck. 

CRAFWORD: The wind, the waves. They can change on a dime. 

HAMILTON: And there's just something about seamanship ... whether it’s in your veins or what. But we just sort of knew not to push it too hard. 

CRAWFORD: So, it wasn’t until later on, the next phase when you were crewing, that you would have been going further afield. When I asked you about regions for that period when you were crewing, did you say that you had spent any time Crayfishing or Codpotting around the Titi Islands then?

HAMILTON: Not when I was a young man crewing away down here. I hadn’t worked out in the Titi Islands - apart from with my Father a little bit around here, and down Lords River way. 

CRAWFORD: When you were older, moving further afield ... Let's start with when you were crewing on the southwest corner of Stewart Island. When you were fishing down around there, did you ever see any White Pointers?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Do you ever remember anybody else talking about seeing White Pointers there?

HAMILTON: I can’t remember any stories about White Pointers there, no. 

CRAWFORD: This was previous to the Campbell Island attack, and all the rest of that. One thing that I’m told is that people on Stewart Island, and people in Bluff - when that Campbell Island attack happened, it surprised the hell out of everybody. That the White Pointers were actually way down there, in the first place. When you were crewing along the southwest corner, you don't recall any evidence of White Pointers - in terms of Sharks or interactions or stories down there?

HAMILTON: No.

CRAWFORD: What did the old-timers tell you, your Dad or any other people, when you were a young guy - about where the White Pointers were, or when, or why? Do you remember hearing what the old-timers might have said about that? 

HAMILTON: No. There was not a lot of discussion about White Pointers. There was more discussion about Mako Sharks, than White Pointers.

CRAWFORD: What would they have said about Makos?

HAMILTON: Oh, they'd just come round, and be a pain in the ass on your lines - on your handlines in the old days. Because they'd just tear your lines, and take the fish off.

CRAWFORD: So, you’d be left with a fish head on a hook, and that was it? That kind of thing?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. I have heard, they used to talk about the Pāua divers always being wary around the Codfish area.

CRAWFORD: Yes. And you had mentioned, if I recall correctly, that they were further offshore and exposed there. 

HAMILTON: They’re out in the open. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's get back to the Makos. Do Makos show any interest in Codpots? 

HAMILTON: Not that I know of. 

CRAWFORD: You haven’t seen any Makos around them. And you haven’t got any caught up in your rigging, or coming up when you’re lifting? Or anything like that? 

HAMILTON: No. Only a little bit when handlining, they’ll come round, and you might catch one. You won’t land it, you’ll just get it up, and get it close. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, the old-timers who you knew, it didn’t really come up in discussion about the White Pointers - interactions with what you were doing as a fisherman, or being out on the water? Anything like that?

HAMITLON: No, no.

CRAWFORD: You have done some Pāua diving, but mostly you've been on the boat, on the water - not in the water. So, it’s a different type of perspective. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: For the White Pointers that you've seen over the past five years, in the places that you’ve just described - do you see them for the most part in a particular season? I mean, you're out there much of the year. Do your observations pick up at some point in the year?

HAMILTON: Yeah, it’s mostly after Christmas, after New Year.

CRAWFORD: For how long, roughly?

HAMILTON: January, February, March, April. 

CRAWFORD: And then not so much after?

HAMILTON: Not so much after, hardly ever in the winter. I can’t remember ever seeing a Shark in the winter. 

CRAWFORD: That’s an important thing for a fish ecologist. When you see them for a certain period of time, but not others. Was there a general knowledge among Stewart Islanders that the White Pointers are around for part of the year, and not for other parts? 

HAMILTON: No. It certainly wasn’t on my radar. It’s only become ... we’ve only actually really been looking for White Pointers since Clinton has been here doing his work. And since these cage diving guys have started up. Over my fishing career, we’ve found - mainly at that time of the year - Seal skin and Seal fur in the guts of fish.

CRAWFORD: In the guts of Blue Cod from the fishery?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Other fish as well, but mainly Cod. 

CRAWFORD: So, Seal bits eaten by the fish?

HAMILTON: Seal bits, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But Seal bits don’t just show up. It’s either going to be an animal that died of natural, maybe non-predatory causes - one that’s rotting apart. Or I guess it could be from a collision with a boat prop, something like that. Or it’s going to be remnants from a predation event, like after a White Pointer attack. Has this always been observed by the fishery?

HAMILTON: It has. Because I can remember seeing that down here, I think at the Cape. And you're thinking "Oh. That’s unusual." But you’re not bothered to even think about it too hard. But now, because of this issue, you’re thinking "Oh. Perhaps that’s the White Sharks." And it becomes obvious that it is, because you see it quite a lot. Well, it depends on what sort of method of cleaning you’re doing. Like if you're gilling and gutting and just sort or swiping the guts and the gills - hardly ever. But if you’re knifing a fish with a fillet, the gut always spills open. And we do see a lot of it. 

CRAWFORD: This is the first I’ve heard of it. And I completely get the idea that maybe it was always like that, and you didn’t even think about it so much. Is there a seasonality to finding Seal bits in the Cod?

HAMILTON: It’s mainly the warmer months.

CRAWFORD: January to May, something like that? 

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Is that also in correlation when the Seals are here?

HAMILTON: Well, there’s always some Seals here.

CRAWFORD: I know, but I’m talking about any general, seasonal trends in abundance with them as well ...

HAMILTON: Well, that’s the time of peak Seal activity. A lot of the pupping, there’s always a lot of small Seals then.

CRAWFORD: Right. And that’s the time of finding the most Seal bits in the fishery too. So, there’s a time association there. Is there also a general location association? Any patterns in space that you’ve seen of the Seal bits in Cod? Where you see it, where you don't?

HAMILTON: Just close to the islands. Inside maybe 15 fathoms, 20 fathoms, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But again, we’ve got to remember that these Cod are moving around too, right?  They might eat some Seal bit over here, and then swim some distance over there. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Well, that was unexpected. And insightful - thank you for that. When you think about New Zealand and White Pointers, obviously Stewart Island is a hotspot. And in particular the Titi Islands. This whole region is a hotspot. What other hotspots are there around New Zealand, as far as what you know, or what you've heard? Where else would you think?

HAMILTON: Chathams. And the Dunedin coast, I think.

CRAWFORD: Why the Chathams, do you think? 

HAMILTON: Just because of the Seal population. And I’ve heard stories of the Pāua boys out there, having confrontations and seeing a bit of them. There’s a lot of Pāua diving activity out there.

CRAWFORD: More Pāua diving there than here?

HAMILTON: A similar sort of fishery, I think. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the nature of the White Pointers out at the Chathams ... are they pretty similar to here, or more or less aggressive? Have you heard anything about them?

HAMILTON: No way to comment on that. 

CRAWFORD: As far as you know or would suspect, do you think that the White Pointers are at the Chatham Islands for the Seals?

HAMILTON: I would imagine so. 

CRAWFORD: So, at least one possible factor. Ok. Otago Peninsula, why do you think the White Pointers hang around there?

HAMILTON: Don’t know. I don’t know much about that area. I don’t know if there’s a Seal population there or not. I’m guessing there are Seals along the coast there. 

CRAWFORD: Elsewhere in this region around Foveaux Strait and Stewart Island - have been told by your mates or old-timers, about any other places that the White Pointers seem to be in numbers?

HAMILTON: I’ve been told that they’re up round the Codfish area, like I said. But I now know from, well I don’t know for sure, but my observations with the Seal fur in the Fish guts, that I have observed. I’ve seen that years ago down here on these [southern] Muttonbird Islands.

CRAWFORD: There are also Seal colonies down there?

HAMILTON: Lots of Seal colonies, I haven’t put the two together -because I just haven’t been thinking about it. But definitely out here at Moggy, there’s a big Seal colony out there. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know of anybody that has seen White Pointers around Codfish Island?

HAMILTON: I have heard people have seen them, but I couldn’t put a name to it. 

CRAWFORD: That’s fine. Likewise, have other people seen them around the southern Muttonbird Islands?

HAMILTON: Yeah. yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But those are the kinds of Level 1 Observations, those kinds of encounters?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. What about in Foveaux Strait itself, or on the other side along the mainland?

HAMILTON: Not really. I haven’t heard too much about that. But I know there’s been observations around Ruapuke, quite regularly.

CRAWFORD: And always have been?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES

CRAWFORD: Back to that triangle you worked on the northeast corner of the Island. When you started fishing up there, when was the first time that you saw a White Pointer?

HAMILTON: First time I saw a White Pointer was, I had just had my family - the two boys and Mum - down to Moggy.

CRAWFORD: On a recreational boat?

HAMILTON: On the fishing boat. But we'd just had Christmas and New Year down there. 

CRAWFORD: So, it was a family trip on your fishing boat?

HAMILTON: Yeah. We were coming back, and there was a big party up the Inlet. I think it must have been pretty close to either New Year or just after, something like that

CRAWFORD: Roughly what year?

HAMILTON: Say 18 years ago, maybe.

CRAWFORD: Mid- to late-90s?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: You were coming back from the trip ...

HAMILTON: And we were just cruising past Bobs Point. Just here. 

CRAWFORD: Bobs Point is just before Horseshoe Bay?

HAMILTON: Yeah. We were cruising along, 7 knots in the old Huia. We were also sitting up the bow enjoying the day. And all of a sudden there was this fin right beside us just keeping up. 

CRAWFORD: You were doing 7 knots?

HAMILTON: Yeah. It was there. It was just right there. And it was huge. 

CRAWFORD: Were you Skippering?

HAMILTON: I was Skippering the boat, but I wasn’t driving the boat. The boat was on automatic pilot. All four of us were up on the bow. It was glassy calm. It was a fantastic evening.

CRAWFORD: That actually shows up in other stories too. This glassy calm thing. Maybe that's got to do more with our eyesight to see things. Maybe it's something else. When you first saw the fin, you were already alongside?

HAMILTON: Oh yeah. The Shark was right there, pretty much. 

CRAWFORD: It wasn’t as if it was up ahead, and you were catching up to it?

HAMILTON: No, no.

CRAWFORD: It just appeared next to you. It might have actually come up behind, but you wouldn’t have seen it because you were up on the bow. So, the first you see it, right there - and it was keeping up with you at 7 knots? 

HAMILTON: It didn’t stay there for long. Because it probably didn’t want to work that hard anyway. And then it was gone. 

CRAWFORD: It’s notoriously difficult for anybody to figure out size, especially under surprise circumstances ... but you were a fishermen. What size was your boat?

HAMILTON: 47-foot. 

CRAWFORD: And if you had to guess the size of that White Pointer?

HAMILTON: Oh, 12 feet.

CRAWFORD: It was there for how long, roughly?

HAMILTON: Five or six seconds, probably. But it seemed like a long time, yeah. It was like "Grab the kids" you know? it was just like "Shit." You get a fright, because you just haven’t seen that before. You think "Bloody Hell." What surprises you is how big they are.

CRAWFORD: 12 feet of Shark?

HAMILTON: And it’s not so much the length, it’s the girth of these things, man.

CRAWFORD: Well, that is an interesting observation. In all the time that you have spent, a life-time on the water around Stewart Island and everyplace else, have you ever seen Basking Sharks?

HAMILTON: Yes.

CRAWFORD: Where have you seen Basking Sharks?

HAMILTON: Down this area around here. 

CRAWFORD: Yes. And when you saw those Sharks, under what kind of conditions did you see them?

HAMILTON: Flat calm, beautiful.

CRAWFORD: Did you see one Basking Shark, or did you see groups of them?

HAMILTON: We see several groups. There must have been family groups, but there would have been ... it seemed like 10 or 15 groups, but they were all very spread out. They were sort of 100 metres apart. But they were like a male and a female. It was phenomenal.

CRAWFORD: How would you know males and females?

HAMILTON: I was assuming, because there was a big, big one, and then there were smaller ones. But I don’t know if females are bigger or what.

CRAWFORD: Did it appear that they were swimming in the same general direction, at the same kind of speed?

HAMILTON: No, they were just milling. They were just feeding.

CRAWFORD: Feeding, with mouths hung open?

HAMILTON: Just as they do. Going round and round. 

CRAWFORD: When they were swimming, when they were feeding in particular, what kind of speed were they swimming around at?

HAMILTON: Slow. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you’ve seen Basking Sharks. You’ve seen them down here. Have you seen them anyplace else, by the way?

HAMILTON: No, never seen Basking Sharks anyplace else. Or since, actually.

CRAWFORD: Just one occasion, down here. And this was the '80s, '90s?

HAMILTON: '90s, yeah.

CRAWFORD: But that means you’ve seen both Basking Sharks and White Pointers. What did you recognize as a difference, given that you’d already seen Basking Sharks down here - and then you saw this White Pointer. What I'm trying to get to is, how did you know that it wasn’t a Basking Shark?

HAMILTON: You just know. Like you’ve, even though you haven’t seen them, you’ve read books, you’ve seen TV programs. 

CRAWFORD: If you were thinking back to it now, what kind of things that you saw struck you about that White Pointer - that you don’t see with a Basking Shark. Or vice versa, either way. 

HAMILTON: With a Basking Shark, they just looked ... there was nothing dangerous about them. They just didn’t look dangerous. They were cruising along. You could see their mouth was open, and they were just cruising along. We would go right up alongside them, and they just weren’t too worried about it. 

CRAWFORD: So, the nature of their mouth being open ...

HAMILTON: They were just doing their own thing. 

CRAWFORD: And the speed. They were just cruising along.

HAMILTON: Whereas the White Pointer, it looked ominous. 

CRAWFORD: You mentioned something that several other people have mentioned too. You said something about the girth. Now Basking Sharks can grow to quite a substantially larger size than the White Pointers. And yet people that are talking about White Pointers often talk about the girth. What did you mean about that?

HAMILTON: Well, it’s just that they seem big and round and solid. Even though the big Basking Sharks we saw were much bigger, you just get a different mindset about it. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Your first encounter with a White Pointer was seconds, less than 15 seconds. And the animal was doing 7 knots, which means it was pumping. I would imagine pumping fairly hard. Did you see the tail moving?

HAMILTON: Well, we were concentrating on the head, because we could see the eye and the fin.

CRAWFORD: You could see the eye on the side horizontally - below the surface? Or had it rolled up and over? 

HAMILTON: Oh, it was hard to say. You saw the nose and the fin, you know? And the girth. I can’t even remember seeing the tail at all. But seeing the front half of the Shark, being like two or three metres, it was just ...

CRAWFORD: Right. There it is. And then it just veered off?

HAMILTON: It just went, it disappeared. Must have just come in, had a look, see if it was food or whatever. Because it would have been burning up far too much energy trying to keep up with us.

CRAWFORD: At 7 knots?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. That was the first time you saw a White Pointer. It was a very brief period of time. [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] Your first encounter was not so much a Level 1 Observation because the animal was right next to you. It seems likely for it to have made a choice to come next to your boat and hold for a few seconds. And 7 knots, almost 4 metres per second - that's not an easy thing to hold.

HAMILTON: We were coming into where it was, but it obviously wanted to stick with us to have a look for a moment. 

CRAWFORD: It had a look. So maybe It was actually the equivalent of a Level 2 Drive-By. It didn’t show any other type of more advanced interaction, and it didn’t show attitude or anything else?

HAMILTON: No. And that Shark was caught a few days later. So, it must have been pre-'94. 

CRAWFORD: Really? When you got home to Halfmoon Bay, you heard that that White Pointer had - prior to you getting back, it had been spotted. I'm guessing the Sharknets were probably already in the water by the time you came back in?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. Nets had gone out.

CRAWFORD: There’s no guarantee that it was the same fish. 

HAMILTON: No. But it more than likely would have been. Because there’s pictures of it. Zane, he was a young lad at the time, and I think Merv Moodie. Joe Cave owned the nets they used. 

CRAWFORD: Is this the famous incident that I heard about from several different people, including Allan Anderson from Karitane - who was in Paterson Inlet at the time? He talked about the number of people that would go down to the Halfmoon Bay wharf. That there were actually three White Pointers that were making a daily circuit in the Bay, one large, two smaller - actually coming within distance that you could see them from the wharf. And that people were coming down to the wharf to see them, about the same time of day - like clockwork?

HAMILTON: Could well have been. Because the nets went out, and they caught them.

CRAWFORD: Over the course of your childhood in your early history, how many different, individual White Pointers would you have seen that would have been caught that way. That had been removed intentionally from the Bay with the Sharknets? Like ten?

HAMILTON: No, less. Half a dozen maybe. 

CRAWFORD: Over the course of twenty years or so?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Was it reasonably quickly after somebody seeing them, that they were captured?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Just after the first couple of sightings. I don’t even think they were problematic, or anything like that. 

CRAWFORD: It was preventative?

HAMILTON: It was preventative measures, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: But effective preventative measures?

HAMILTON: Very effective, yeah.

CRAWFORD: I guess the point is that these White Pointers are vulnerable to that kind of gear. And that was just the way it happened. Did you see any the other White Pointers on the wharf? Or did you happen to see them, as they were being lifting in the nets? Anything like that?

HAMILTON: I saw them lift that one net with a Shark in it, but apart from that, no. 

CRAWFORD: Did you see anything regarding guts being spilled from those two White Pointers on the wharf?

HAMILTON: I don’t know which one, but I can remember seeing Cod frames spew out of the gullet. Might have even been a tin can or something. There was some random stuff coming out. They’re obviously opportunists. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. What was the next White Pointer that you saw in the wild? I think you said that you had seen in your lifetime, you estimated for me, how many times?

HAMILTON: Yeah, 40 or 50 now.

CRAWFORD: When was the next one? When and where?

HAMILTON: Years later. I saw them once I came back and started fishing in this triangle. 

CRAWFORD: We're talking ten years later? You were Skippering then?

HAMILTON: Yeah, maybe even 15 years later. 

CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?

HAMILTON: Everywhere. Well not everywhere, no. Around Edwards where they do the Shark cage. Around Jacky Lee. Around the North Islands. Out here on the shallow. And out here, halfway between here and Ruapuke.

CRAWFORD: Right. That triangle as your area of fishing focus. But within that triangle, I think you said you were around the Titi Islands. And the shoreline along here?

HAMILTON: Oh yeah, I probably do 60% of my work along here.

CRAWFORD: Directly around the island. 

HAMILTON: Inside, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. The first time you saw a White Pointer around the Titi Islands, was that before or after the beginning of the cage dive operations?

HAMILTON: After. 

CRAWFORD: I doubt that you will remember the very next time, but was it off of Edwards, or Bench, or what? Do you recall? 

HAMILTON: It was around the North Islands, Edwards and Jacky Lee. In that area. 

CRAWFORD: When would this have been, roughly?

HAMILTON: 2010, maybe 2011. Something like that. 

CRAWFORD: So, four or five years ago?

HAMILTON: Four or five years. They’ve just become so much part of our life now.

CRAWFORD: While you're Codpotting?

HAMILTON: When I’m seeing the Sharks, it’s just Codpotting.

CRAWFORD: You don’t see Sharks when you’re Crayfishing?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Environmentally, what’s the difference when you’re Crayfishing, as opposed to Codpotting?

HAMILTON: When we're Crayfishing, we’re on the move all the time. You lift a pot, you’re racing ... you’re racing around all the time. When you’re Codpotting, you set your gear and you drift. At times you drift for an hour. Yeah, you just drift around. You might be cleaning fish, you might be having a cup of tea. You've got time to look around, and things are more relaxed. When you’re Crayfishing, you’ve already got your 100 or so pots out, and you’re up and down, up and down, up and down, throttle off, throttle back, roar, roar, roar. Measuring fish. Head down. You’re just flat out. So, it’s a different type of fishing altogether. 

CRAWFORD: But I want to get back to ... is it a different environment as well? Like do you choose different kinds of places for setting your Crayfish pots?

HAMILTON: Not necessarily.

CRAWFORD: But that’s an important thing, because of your attention span. It’s the same thing for fishermen that are longlining or trawling or whatever. If you're busy paying attention to the gear. and what you’re doing - you’re aware of where you are, but you’re not necessarily keenly aware of what’s at the surface. Or below the surface.

HAMILTON: No. You’re not looking for it.

CRAWFORD: Keeping that in mind, it could have been that there were White Pointers around when you were Crayfishing. But like you said, you’re busy. When you’re Codpotting though, you have more time to see things?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you're Codpotting ... it seemed as if you were pointing to the Northern Titi Islands, and a little bit further North from there. What makes those the places where you go Codpotting, as opposed to places where you go Crayfish potting? 

HAMILTON: Ah no, I certainly Codpot everywhere. But this is where we have the encounters. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Well, that’s important too. There are places where you've been Codpotting over the last five years or so, approximately two or three years after the beginning of cage tour dive operations. Had you been Codpotting previously in those same waters prior to cage tour dive operations - and had not seen White Pointers. 

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Were there changes in the number of observations? Did you see one the first year, and then maybe two or three the next year, and then you saw ten the next year? Or was it that you saw ten the very first time you saw them - and you saw them in numbers throughout?

HAMILTON: No, it’s been a gradual increase. But I don’t know how many different individuals we’re seeing ...

CRAWFORD: No, no - don’t worry about that. We’re just talking about observations regardless of individual White Pointers. If I remember right, within that area you were Codpotting, were you fishing all year round in that region?

HAMILTON: Not necessarily. It’s mainly from middle of January through till maybe end of August. 

CRAWFORD: So, maybe eight months. During that period, in that general region, where were the places that you would be Codpotting that you did not see any White Pointers? 

HAMILTON: Further offshore. 

CRAWFORD: Offshore and over deeper water?

HAMILTON: Deeper water, and away from ... well, I would have thought away from the Seal colonies. I haven’t seen any out in the middle out here. I haven’t seen any south of Bench Island down this way.

CRAWFORD: And you’ve spent substantial time Codpotting south of Bench Island?

HAMILTON: Down here, I’ve spent a lot of time.

CRAWFORD: What about the islands at the mouth of Paterson Inlet? Do you Codpot around there?

HAMILTON: Well, there’s a closed area right from basically Ackers Point through. So, there’s no Codpotting inside. I Codpot right to the line, and right in front of Halfmoon Bay. Everywhere. 

CRAWFORD: And do you see White Pointers along those shorelines or mouthlines? 

HAMILTON: Dead Man's, I’ve seen White Pointers. Dead Man's Beach. Horseshoe Point. Mamaku Point. North Bench. 

CRAWFORD: Ok, that’s good. And the Islands - all of those Titi Islands have Seal colonies of one level or another?

HAMILTON: That’s right.

CRAWFORD: Let's get back to your encounters with White Pointers, generally. I think you said you've seen something like 30 or 40 animals over the past five years. Collectively, what percentages across those four levels we discussed: Level 1 Observations, Level 2 Swim-Bys, Level 3 Interest, and Level 4 Attitude?

HAMILTON: I would say 10% Swim-By. 

CRAWFORD: That's Level 2. Do you ever see Level 1 animals? Where it’s just an observation over there with no interaction?


HAMILTON: It’s so hard to say ...

CRAWFORD: Ok. But it’s a small percentage?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 80% is the Interest. 

CRAWFORD: Some kind of circling or poking about, beyond a simple pass. Do you ever get the Level 4 Attitude? Some people are talking about teeth in the rudder of a boat, or ramming, that kind of thing. Anything more than just casual curiosity?

HAMILTON: Yeah. I’ve certainly had that one, maybe two occasions. But not a lot.

CRAWFORD: So, that’s a 5% or 10% maybe. Your encounters have mostly been Level 2 Interest. More than a Swim-By, less than Attitude. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's deal with the Level 3 Interest. When you’re Codpotting ... I guess it’s kind of self-explanatory that if a White Pointer is showing attention, it’s circling around, it might put an eye on you. But you’re also bringing up a mesh cage that has live fish in distress. Do the White Pointers show interest in the contents of the pot? 

HAMILTON: Not in my experiences, no. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When you see an interested White Pointer, is it circling around the Codpot while you're lifting it, or is it circling around the boat?

HAMILTON: Around the boat.

CRAWFORD: This could be important. Are the fish circling around the boats when you’re putting the Codpots down? When they’re empty - except for the bait, and you're setting them on the bottom?

HAMILTON: Not that I know of - because we’re always on the move when we’re setting a pot. 

CRAWFORD: Right. It’s like when you're Crayfishing. It’s go, go, go. So, the White Pointers could be interested during Codpot deployment, but you just might not have the opportunity to see. But do you ever remember seeing a White Pointer while you were setting Codpots?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: It’s only when you’re lifting?

HAMILTON: Or more so when we’re drifting. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Ok. How many Codpots might you lay down at one go? 

HAMILTON: We put eight out, and we might do those four times over the day. 

CRAWFORD: Set them out. Drift for spell and a cup of tea - for maybe half an hour, an hour?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: And then lift, starting with first in - first out?

HAMILTON: Yeah, lift them. And once you’ve done your eight, you might stop and clean some Fish for another half hour. And then lift them again ...

CRAWFORD: All in the same general region? 

HAMILTON: Well, you methodically go through that area.

CRAWFORD: Right. And in that whole process ... you don’t see the White Pointers when you’re setting - but realizing that you’re busy at the time. You do see them when you’re drifting after you set. And this is going to sound a little weird, because it’s so specific ... but do you typically see them more after the second or the third or the fourth set of the day? As opposed to after the first set?

HAMILTON: No. It’s a wee bit random, but I think it’s been more so in the morning.

CRAWFORD: Earlier on in the day? That's interesting.

HAMILTON: I’m getting that feeling. But in saying that, I haven’t logged sightings.

CRAWFORD: No, no. That’s fine. Is it the case that you would even have White Pointers in that Level 3 Interest category, around the boat when you’ve got pots down - but you haven’t lifted any in yet?

HAMILTON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: So, White Pointers are responding to your Codpotting operation being there in general, even though ... well, there might be fish in the pot down there, but you haven’t lifted them yet? 

HAMILTON: No, no. And the only fish residue or smell that might be coming from the boat has been from the bait, running out of the scuppers.

CRAWFORD: Right. So, as you’re baiting the pots, there's some bait residue seeping overboard. But I'm guessing it’s a small amount?

HAMILTON: Small amount, but it’s still there.

CRAWFORD: Sure. Do you get the feeling that White Pointers are ever there when you arrive at a location? As soon as a boat shows up, they come right to it straight away?

HAMILTON: They've got to be. Yeah, they've got to be in the general area. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, but I’m talking specifically about ... like if I took any random boat, and I didn’t have Codpots or anything like that aboard, and I go out to that same place - would the White Pointers come to that boat?

HAMILTON: Yep. Guarantee it. At that time of year. Unless the cage divers are out there. You hardly ever see a Shark, if the cage divers are there. 

CRAWFORD: Wow. That is the first anybody has ever mentioned that. 

HAMILTON: Yeah. Because that’s where they’re hanging out there. 

CRAWFORD: Well, without even getting into the mechanisms, even just the pattern. What kind of proximity would you be to the cage divers, on average or typically? Would they be within a kilometre of you?

HAMILTON: Yeah, at times. 

CRAWFORD: Or more? Maybe two or three kilometres? 

HAMILTON: Yep. 

CRAWFORD: On a typical fishing day, would you be working on your fishing grounds, and then later the cage divers come in? 

HAMILTON: Yeah, I’m there by daylight.

CRAWFORD: Realizing that when you go out on any given day, you’re going to pick different places, different times of day, whatever the case may be ... And that the cage divers are now restricted to Edwards Island, though some of your experience was pre-permit when they could have been operating anywhere. But even then, largely at Edwards. You work in a broader region, but it happens to include the vicinity around Edwards Island?

HAMILTON: Yeah. That's an observation, only in the last two or three years. 

CRAWFORD: Which observation?

HAMILTON: That observation that, if I’ve got a Shark hanging around me during the day - if the Shark cage divers turn up, it will disappear. That’s only just been happening in the last couple of years. And it’s very Edwards-specific.

CRAWFORD: Within what kind of range of Edwards are we talking about?

HAMILTON: We’re talking roughly about a couple of kilometres. 

CRAWFORD: So, line of sight. You would be able to see them. But had it been someplace else, you would have fully expected that Shark who was around you, to stay around you?

HAMILTON: Just keep hanging around, I would imagine. Or done his own thing. 

CRAWFORD: I think that’s a more important observation than it seems at first glance. Because of the interaction. White Pointers responding to different cues. And it’s not direct evidence, but it’s an observation that I had not heard before. Let's just imagine you’re off for a day's fishing, there’s no cage tour dive operation in the proximity. You show up at your grounds. What’s the likelihood that - as soon as you get there, before you even start doing anything - that White Pointers are going to show up? Is that a low probability?

HAMILTON: it’s pretty random. Yeah, you might go there and not see one. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Maybe even for the entire day. Or you might go there, and they’re around right off the bat. But if you do see them, 80% are in that Level 3 Interest category. They’re circling, they’re doing something. What kind of proximity? Are we talking like, within two metres, within twenty metres? What’s normal? 

HAMILTON: They’ll come within two metres. Yeah, they’ll come and look at you. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, let's get into that. Because that’s a different kind of interaction, when a White Pointer looks at you. The simplest kind of sustained interest would be circling. Do you get some that circle, but only at a distance?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: You see the fin, you see the body, but they might stay as far as ten or twenty metres away?

HAMILTON: Yeah, oh yeah. 

CRAWFORD: They just don’t come in.

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: And then there are those that come right in close proximity and circle. Milling around.

HAMILTON: Some of them are just not shy at all.

CRAWFORD: What would be an example of being not shy? Other than the closeness? Would they be mouthing your floats or lines? Stuff like that?

HAMILTON: No. They’re just cruising by. Looking. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. You said that occasionally these White Pointers will have a look at you. How do they do that?

HAMILTON: Well, they seem to have a look at you. 

CRAWFORD: Right. We’re trying to not over-interpret. But when a White Pointer puts its eye out of the water as it's going past you - you can have some confidence that it’s looking at you.

HAMILTON: Oh, it just seemed to be maybe rolling or looking. 

CRAWFORD: Is this as they’re swimming? Or as they're gliding? And then part of the head will come up out of the water?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Sometimes they’ll approach ... they’ll come up, and then level off. You know what I mean? So, they’re looking - and then they level off.

CRAWFORD: That sounds like a whole-body thing. Some people have talked about White Pointers rolling over slightly on their side at the surface, so that part of their head comes out - the eye is actually out of the water. Do you ever get any of that? 

HAMILTON: I have been doing some permitted work with this guy from Western Australia. So, we have had those encounters where we’ve been baiting the Sharks, and we have had those encounters. But that’s totally different to my commercial fishing side of it. 

CRAWFORD: So, when you’re doing regular Codpotting, you don’t see that kind of thing - part or whole head out of the water. Although you have seen it, under different circumstances - when the White Pointers were being baited?

HAMILTON: It doesn’t seem to be that aggression factor there. That there is, when there's food about.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's get back to you Codpotting. Do the White Pointers ever interact with the Codpot, that you can see? When your pot is down on the bottom - typically what depth do you work at?

HAMILTON: Maybe 30 to 40 metres. 

CRAWFORD: You can’t see your pots at that depth. 

HAMILTON: No, we can’t see the pots. No. 

CRAWFORD: And I think you said the pots are out in chains of eight or something? Or you put them out eight at a time?

HAMILTON: They’re on a separate line. They’re not together. Each pot has a float. 

CRAWFORD: Do the White Pointers ever interact with the floats? 

HAMILTON: Not in my experience. But I have heard people say that they have had their ropes and floats bitten. 

CRAWFORD: Biting with intensity? Or were they just chawing on things?

HAMILTON: Yeah, just trying it out. 

CRAWFORD: Given the depth that you’re fishing in, you can't see the pots - so, you also can’t tell if the White Pointers are milling around the pots?

HAMILTON: No.

CRAWFORD: When you’re lifting the pots, do you notice the White Pointers when you’re pulling the pots up? Or just after you’ve pulled them up?

HAMILTON: No, no. And not even an increased abundance, when we’re cleaning ...

CRAWFORD: Hang on. Cleaning is maybe completely different. I’m just talking about bringing up a mesh cage with some fish in it. If there was a White Pointer circling around, it might still be around. But it’s not necessarily the case that - as you’re lifting the pot up, that pot is strongly attracting the White Pointers to get to it specifically?

HAMILTON: No. Sometimes we get the Dolphins circling a pot on the way up. But never a White Pointer. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. We’ll get back to fish cleaning in a second. Like I said before, there was that news story about a Codpotter up in Hawke Bay. It showed a picture of a White Pointer hanging, with the rigging caught around the tail, just before the tail fin. And that animal was still alive. They took a picture, untangled it, and it swam away. Have you ever had a White Pointer wrapped up in the rigging of your Codpots? 

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Ever heard anybody else have a White Pointer wrapped up like that?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Anybody else that you know of ever talk about White Pointer interactions with the fish in the pot?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: I was sure you were going to tell me all sorts of stuff about those kinds of interactions with the pots. But it's not that way. It's the boat. The White Pointers you've seen have interacted with the boat, but not really the fish caught in the pots?

HAMILTON: I’m pretty sure that now they’re coming to either the noise or the vibration or the signal, initially. 

CRAWFORD: Or even if the motor was not on, they can still sense a boat up there. Based on what I've heard, they’re keenly aware of what’s floating on the surface. "Oh, a boat. Check it out." Right? 

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: When the Blue Cod are in the pot ... I mean obviously you can't see them, whether they’re in distress or not. But do you have any idea of the behaviour of Blue Cod, when they’re in the pot at the bottom? I know it sounds like a dumb question ...

HAMILTON: Yeah. Actually, I know exactly the behaviour because we’ve put cameras, we've put GoPros in. 

CRAWFORD: Will you tell me what you’ve seen, please?

HAMILTON: The Blue Cod, they’ll sit all around the pot. Not every time, but ...

CRAWFORD: Sit?

HAMILTON: Well, on their little ... Blue Cod sort of walk on their front fins.

CRAWFORD: On their pectoral fins?

HAMILTON: Yeah. And then some go in, some will just stay on the outside. They’ll go in, and they’ll peck away at the bait, and then they’ll just sit in the pot. Honestly. They’ll keep going in one at a time, one at a time, they keep going in, and then they’ll just sit. Peck, go back, sit. Peck, go back, sit. And then all of a sudden, we’ve heard the boat [tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk - with Doppler upshift] coming up on the sound of the GoPro - because noise must travel phenomenally well underwater. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, for sure.

HAMILTON: And you hear [rrrrrroooooaaarrrr], and all of a sudden [ccccrrrrraaaaaasssshhh], and the fish are just [gggggggaaaaaaaaggggggg]!

[both laugh heartily]

CRAWFORD: I don't have a face on that, but I guess I know what it looked like. [chuckles]

HAMILTON: And there’s got to be some pretty horrific signals coming out from those fish. [both chuckle]

CRAWFORD: Alright. Ok. Let's get back to work. Yes, that’s going to be a noticeable event. I don’t know if you kept that GoPro footage, but if so I might ask you to share that with me. 

HAMILTON: It’s on YouTube. If you look under ... It’s not actually mine, it’s my Son's and his mates. Riki Rudin-Jones. It’s just 'Codpotting'. He’s got a few wee segments on there. It’s well worth a look. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, thank you. The point is, based on your experience, you have not seen anything to make you think that these White Pointers are interacting with the Blue Cod in the pots. 

HAMILTON: No.

CRAWFORD: They don’t appear to be responding to the process of either setting the empty pots, or lifting the pots that do have Cod. They’re responding to the Codpotting boat?

HAMILTON: Yep, initially yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Initially? Well, what’s the next thing that happens? What potentially affect how a White Pointer's behaviour changes, in this kind of situation?

HAMILTON: Well, say we’ve got four or five tubs of Cod on the boat.

CRAWFORD: On the deck?

HAMILTON: Yeah. And when we catch a Cod, you bleed it straight away. So, there’s a lot of blood about.

CRAWFORD: This is for the quality of the flesh? 

HAMILTON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: You bleed it. Do you use ikejime, or something like that?

HAMILTON: Just cut their throats. 

CRAWFORD: You make a slice in the tail as well?

HAMILTON: No. Just cut their throat. And you wash them in, like a breadbasket. And it’s just blood flowing. And then if you're heading and gutting ...

CRAWFORD: So, there are two different ways to process?

HAMILTON: Three different ways of processing the fish. There's gill-and-gut, where you just rip the gills and the guts out. 

CRAWFORD: And they go overboard?

HAMILTON: Overboard straight away. There’s head-and-gut - you chop the head and the gills and the guts, and that goes over the side. Or you’re filleting - you take the slab off, turn it over and take the other slab off.

CRAWFORD: But you cut the Cod's throat first? 

HAMILTON: Yeah. It’s just a cut by the gill, and then fillet. 

CRAWFORD: When you fillet, you’re not bleeding out? 

HAMILTON: No, you always bleed out first. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. And then one, two or three. Filleting is ... I’m sure you’re an expert, you can do them very quickly, but that’s still an added labour step. 

HAMILTON: Yep.

CRAWFORD: In general, what’s the most frequent of those three methods?

HAMILTON: Gill and gut probably. 

CRAWFORD: So, filleting would be less, maybe 20%? Something like that?

HAMILTON: I do mainly filleting, because I’ve got a small boat. I like to have bang for bucks with the product. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. In each case, you’ve got bleeding out. So quantity of blood prior to any form of processing. And then you have bits, whether it's from gill-and-gut, head-and-gut, or filleting?

HAMILTON: Yep. Lots of bits.

CRAWFORD: Lots of bits. And you’ve got Birds all over the place?

HAMILTON: There's the Black-Backs and the Mollymawks. 

CRAWFORD: I don’t know these animals. What are Blackbacks and Mollymawks?

HAMILTON: Black-Backs are the big Black-Backed Gull. You get the Red-Billed Gulls, the little Gulls, then you’ve got the bigger ones, the Black-Backs. And then the Mollymawks are our lesser Albatross. 

CRAWFORD: Ok.

HAMILTON: Now 95% of our discarded product doesn’t even get into the water column, because the Mollymawks are into it. 

CRAWFORD: And it’s not that you’re throwing the discard way up into the air - it's just a casual toss. But they’re so good, that 95% of anything that’s going over doesn’t hit the water. That kind of thing?

HAMILTON: But what is there, is a hell of a lot of smell. 

CRAWFORD: Because there’s a lot of blood?

HAMILTON: A lot of blood and berley, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Let's just think about the blood to begin with. Is there any substantial period of time onboard, when there is blood only?

HAMILTON: Yes.

CRAWFORD: On the order of a few minutes or 10 minutes or half an hour or what? You’re bleeding, bleeding, bleeding.

HAMILTON: My drill is, you lift the pot, empty it out, rebait it, set it. Stop. Bleed the last tub, or half a tub, twenty fish or whatever you might get. Hose. On to the next pot. 

CRAWFORD: So, at this point you’ve only bled out, you haven’t done any cutting yet?

HAMILTON: No. This is me specifically. Everyone's different. 

CRAWFORD: Right. I understand. On your operation, you’re bleeding out as you’re going along. But you’re not sending out bits and pieces, until the last pot has been lifted. And then what?

HAMILTON: Then I’ll stop, and do two or three or four tubs.

CRAWFORD: That’s important to know. And I realize it’s different for everybody. You have a process of lifting, bleeding, lifting, bleeding. And you’ve got eight of those Codpots. Approximately, what’s the distance in space between the first pot and the last pot? Is it a kilometre?

HAMILTON: Sometimes, sometimes two. It takes about an hour to get around the eight. 

CRAWFORD: That’s the point I'm trying to get to. There’s about an hour that your boat is associated with producing a blood signal. And during that hour, you’re very busy as well. Do you notice any change in the behaviour of the White Pointers while you are lifting the pots or bleeding or processing? Or are they just milling around throughout?

HAMILTON: Well, most of the time I'm not even looking over the side. Radios going full bore, you know? A bit of Tragically Hip blasting. [chuckles]

CRAWFORD: Yes. I understand that too. This may sound stupid, maybe it doesn’t. I would like to come out with you sometime. I would like to watch, when you’re not able to watch. I’d like to see what the behaviour of the White Pointers is to the blood signal - and the blood signal only, first. But at the end, after the last pot comes up, that’s when the bits go out. So, that’s a different signal. Oh, by the way - the Birds, were they responding to the blood only signal at all? Or do they wait ...

HAMILTON: Oh, they wait, they wait. Well, the little Gulls will come in because there will be little bits.

CRAWFORD: Little tiny bits. But for the most part the big ones - are they flying around, waiting for you to get the last pot?

HAMILTON: They’re waiting. Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, from the limited time and attention that you’re able to spend while lifting and bleeding, have you seen any specific kinds of behaviour of the White Pointers? Are they coming in closer? Are they attracted in closer proximity because of the blood only? Have you seen anything like that?

HAMILTON: Not that I can put together.

CRAWFORD: Right. It’s not as if they’re not there ... it's just that basically, you don’t have time to look closely. 

HAMILTON: No. And they'll just randomly turn up. 

CRAWFORD: Right. The point I’m trying to get at ... once you have the last pot up, and then you’re gilling, heading, gutting, filleting - when the bits and pieces are going over, rather than only blood - recognizing the fact that 95% of the bits never hit the water. But of the bits and pieces that do hit the water, is there a change in behaviour of the White Pointers to that cue? 

HAMILTON: We have tried scaring away the Birds to let the Blue Cod frames sink. Nine times out of ten, the Sharks aren’t that interested in it. They’ll come and sniff it, or whatever. Some of them will eat it, but they’re not that fussed on it.

CRAWFORD: Are the White Pointers still at most in Level 3 through this? Is there any Level 4 intensity or attitude by these animals then?

HAMILTON: No, no, no. They’re just cruising along, quite relaxed. Maybe once in a while ... 

CRAWFORD: Right. So, these are all your first observations of these White Pointers, being around your Codpotting boat, as you’ve just described ...

HAMILTON: It’s just become so part of our life now. You know?

CRAWFORD: And there was a time when it wasn’t?

HAMILTON: No.

CRAWFORD: And now it is?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. They’re just not shy. They're not secretive.

CRAWFORD: Right. But neither are they Level 4, in this context?

HAMILTON: No. They’re not aggressive either. 

CRAWFORD: They’re not bumping your boat.

HAMILTON: No, no. 

CRAWFORD: The other important observation was ... if you’re in the region, and a cage tour dive operator shows up, maybe a kilometre or two away, you'd be into that lifting and bleeding cycle?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, there’s blood already in the water. You might have some White Pointers around. But you said that if and when the cage dive operation shows up, you’ve noticed that if you had White Pointers around your boat, that they seem to take off?

HAMILTON: They definitely seem to gravitate towards them. I wouldn’t say 100% or anything.

CRAWFORD: Regardless of whether they’re going to the cage dive operators or anyplace else - they’re just not around you anymore. And when you say 'definitely,' that implies it’s fairly distinct?

HAMILTON: Well, it’s definitely a pattern.

CRAWFORD: Right. At any given time, how many White Pointers would you have around your boat - that you can see? One Two, Ten?

HAMILTON: The most we’ve had is three. But more often than not, just one.

CRAWFORD: If the Shark cage dive operation comes in, how long would it take before a White Pointer around your boat would take off? Going wherever it goes?

HAMILTON: Straight away, really. 

CRAWFORD: Really?

HAMILTON: Yeah. I think especially with the big boat. Peter Scott’s boat. Basically, as soon as you see it on the horizon, they’re gone. Because I think they can hear it, they can sense it ... the sound, the vibrations.

CRAWFORD: It’s illogical that it would be a chemosensory thing. They haven’t even got there and started berleying or anything like that. It takes time for those chemosensory cues to get carried a kilometre. 

HAMITLON: I’m not saying that it’s a proven thing. But it just feels to me that they know that boat. 

CRAWFORD: Well, I haven’t heard that before. Not in that detail. Alright. In terms of Brett Hamilton Codpotting, is there anything else that you’ve seen or known? In terms of your own personal experience about White Pointers? In terms of where, or how they behave. Or any other patterns? 

HAMILTON: Not so much patterns, just they have, and also with my charter tours as well like ...

CRAWFORD: Ok. But your charters are a very different operation. Right now, just with regards to Codpotting, that’s pretty much it?

HAMILTON: That’s pretty much it. It’s just part and parcel of your day, if you’re out in that area now. 

CRAWFORD: And has been that way, starting about five years ago, and has continued every year since. It’s late November now, are you Codpotting currently?

HAMILTON: No. About to start up. I do a little bit before Christmas, but mainly after New Year. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, you don’t know what would be happening out there now?

HAMILTON: No idea. 

CRAWFORD: Is anybody else Codpotting out there now?

HAMILTON: Yeah there’s a few of the boys. But the weather's just been so hot and cold, you know?

CRAWFORD: I would be very interested to know and potentially talk to people who would specifically be Codpotting now. Prior to the cage dive operations. My understanding is that Mike Haines’ operation starts early December. So, prior to his cage tour dive operation for the season, prior to the onset of their berleying for the season. Do the other Stewart Island Codpotters see the same kinds of things? Do they tell the same kinds of stories?

HAMILTON: Well, I don’t really discuss it with them. We know we all see Sharks now in that area. I haven’t tried to cross-reference my observations with anybody else.

CRAWFORD: No, no. That’s my job, or another analyst's job. But to a certain extent, if other people saw things that were consistent or different from your observations, you might know. If you don’t talk about it, you don’t talk about it. But there are other people Codpotting out at the islands.

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Who else might I talk to? Who would also have a fair bit of experience Codpotting around the Titi Islands? 

HAMILTON: Anthony O’Rourke - Chook. Jason Koratiana, maybe.

CRAWFORD: Thanks. Alright, let's talk about your experience via your recreational charters, I’m presuming that you've seen White Pointers while you were chartering in and amongst the Titi Islands, or maybe elsewhere along Stewart Island?

HAMILTON: More so out round the Islands.

CRAWFORD: During those charter operations, what kinds of things are you doing?

HAMILTON: We’re just lining. 

CRAWFORD: Rod-and-reel fishing?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: For Blue Cod?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Live or dead bait on the hook?

HAMILTON: Dead bait. 

CRAWFORD: On the bottom, jigging?

HAMILTON: Well, straight down to the bottom, and then one wind up and then yeah, it’s basically bottom-fishing. 

CRAWFORD: Right. When you’ve been taking people out on those recreational fishing charters, line-fishing for Blue Cod, are you on the same boat as for Codpotting?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Same boat, but out on a different purpose. And what have you seen when you've been out on those charters?

HAMILTON: Just the Level 3, milling around.

CRAWFORD: Any bumping? 

HAMILTON: No.

CRAWFORD: When somebody gets a fish, any interaction between the White Pointer and that fish that is being caught? Do they go after fish as they are being reeled in?

HAMILTON: I haven’t had that, no. I have had a line taken, but it was at a distance. It could well have been a White Pointer, but it could have been something else. 

CRAWFORD: Do you see White Pointers frequently, when you're out on the recreational charters?

HAMILTON: If people are chartering me, and it’s not just like a random one two, three, four group of people - if they’ve chartered me for a whole day, a half day they would say to me "Oh, is there any chance of seeing a Shark - as well, as catching the fish?" So, I’ll go out to that area. Because basically, they’ve bought the boat for the day - I’m doing what they want to do. If they say "Can we catch some Blue Cod? Is there any chance of seeing a Shark?" We’ll go somewhere and catch a Blue Cod, and then we’ll go over to Edwards. 

CRAWFORD: Specifically Edwards?

HAMILTON: Specifically to Edwards. And we’ll go and see a Shark.

CRAWFORD: When you go to Edwards Islands like that, do you do anything? Or are you just hanging there?

HAMILTON: Sometimes we might fish. But more often than not, I’ll just pull up right beside Scott or Haines, because they’ve got the Sharks. If they’re there, that’s where the Sharks are. If those guys aren’t there, if the Sharks aren’t there, then we’ll fish and just drift around and you’ll get one.

CRAWFORD: 'You’ll get one' - as in a White Pointer will come around?

HAMILTON: One will come around. 

CRAWFORD: Milling around?

HAMILTON: Pretty much. Yeah almost dead set. But I normally just go and pinch their Sharks. But they’ll only come and have a look at us, and then they’ll go back to what they’re doing, you know what I mean? We can’t hold them. I only go maybe 100 metres, 50 metres at the closest. I don’t want to piss the operators off, you know? Might go to 50 metres, and one will come out. And people will go "Whoaaa!" And then I’ll hold it, you know, take a picture, and then there’s your Shark, and go away. While I’m not into what they’re doing, I’m not going to try to piss them off or something.

CRAWFORD: I understand. When a White Pointer comes over to your charter, you said they'll have a look, and then go back to the cage dive operation. I'm guessing these would be Level 3 Interest animals, no Level 4 Attitude?

HAMILTON: No, those are Level 3. We haven’t got any Tuna when we’re out there with my charter people. So, they just come by, have a look, and they’re not really even interested. They just come by and have a look. 

CRAWFORD: You have reason to believe that they respond differently to Tuna than they do to anything else?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Only because of my first-hand knowledge with this Australian guy.

CRAWFORD: Tell me about your experience with his testing the anti-Shark device. How did that start? 

HAMILTON: I just got a call from some friends of mine from Queenstown that are filmmakers. They had been approached by this surfboard manufacturer, just a guy and his wife. They wanted to come over and test their device over here.

CRAWFORD: This was a device specifically intended to be fitted to a board?

HAMILTON: To get fitted to a board, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Or you buy a board with this built into it?

HAMILTON: Either, or.

CRAWFORD: What’s the purpose of the device?

HAMILTON: It’s an electronic forcefield. So that when the Shark comes into proximity with it, it’ll just turn away. Don't want anything to do with it.

CRAWFORD: I don't know anything about electricity, but it’s using a voltage or amperage that a surfer doesn’t feel?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Why come from Australia to here, to Stewart Island?

HAMILTON: They’ve got operations over there, but it’s like ... this is the most accessible White Pointer population on Earth. You can be here in Halfmoon Bay, and you get on the boat down the wharf, and in twenty minutes you can be out amongst the Sharks. There’s nowhere else on Earth that can happen.

CRAWFORD: So, the guy came over here, he had his device. He had a permit, and wanted to charter your operation. For you take them out, do something that was going to bring White Pointers into proximity, and then they put their device in the water and test it somehow. Is that basically it?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Was this the type of thing where the device is off, off, off - and then it gets triggered to be on? Or is it always on?

HAMILTON: No, it’s always on.

CRAWFORD: Ok. They chartered your operation, and you took them out where? 

HAMILTON: Initially to Edwards. And then there was a big hoo-rah with the bloody permitting system. Because Peter Scott and Mike Haines kicked up a stink that we were out there doing this guy's work.

CRAWFORD: Scaring off the White Pointers that they were trying to attract to their operations?

HAMILTON: Or taking the Sharks off them, because we were berleying as well. Because we just went right to the same spot, you know? And they’re there with their punters, and every Shark that we’ve got is one Shark that they haven’t got. So, these guys are going at each other like nothing else.

CRAWFORD: Which guys?

HAMILTON: Scott and my guy, the surfer guy. 

CRAWFORD: What - on the radio? 

HAMILTON: Through DOC, they were going at each other. Not directly, but they were at it. I was just the Skipper of the boat. I didn’t do anything. I just went out there and dropped the anchor.

CRAWFORD: I understand. But it's another circumstance where somebody, not a cage tour dive operator, is going out to Edwards to berley the White Pointers?

HAMILTON: Yeah, with a DOC permit.

CRAWFORD: Right. And you were just a contractor. It's not your permit?

HAMILTON: I’m just the Skipper of the boat. 

CRAWFORD: So, the person who contracted you, had a permit from DOC to bait the White Pointers?

HAMILTON: Well, it was just berley the second time. The first time that we went out, it was before the permitting system.

CRAWFORD: There was no permit needed at all the first time. Everybody was doing whatever, including the cage dive operators. And you know I’m not interested in the personalities and the politics ... what I’m interested in is the behaviour of the White Pointers in response. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. There's a kerfuffle. You moved somewhere else - a different location with no cage dive operators. Nobody else was around at all, I’m presuming. And you continued to run through these tests?

HAMILTON: Didn’t get any Sharks. Had to go back to Edwards. 

CRAWFORD: You berleyed ...

HAMILTON: Berleyed the hell out of Bench, and all around those areas. And didn’t get any.

CRAWFORD: Oh, this is a more important observation than I had originally thought.

HAMILTON: For hours. Gallons of berley. And no Sharks. And this is when they were arguing about the conditions of the permit, you know? Just this last summer gone. It was really hairy fairy. They gave this guy from Australia a black and white map of Edwards ...

CRAWFORD: Who’s 'they'? DOC?

HAMILTON: DOC, yeah. But he wasn’t allowed within 200 metres of the shore of Edwards Island. So, we went back there, just outside. Sharks straight away, got some data like the permit said. But in the meantime - Scott, Haines on the blower. It turned into an absolute shit fight. 

CRAWFORD: Yes, I can imagine. It must have been a circus.

HAMILTON: Yeah. It was a circus. And the whole DOC permitting system, the regime, and who was making decisions ... no-one wanted to tell this guy that they were the one making the decision. You know what I mean?

CRAWFORD: I think I understand. I’m interested in two key things from an ecology perspective. First, you intensively berleyed at nearby Bench Island, still within the Titi Island chain - but could not attract White Pointers?

HAMILTON: Not one. 

CRAWFORD: This was all on one day?

HAMILTON: Over a period. Three days at other sites, around Bench and Bunkers. And then back to Edwards for two days. He was here for about five or six days. 

CRAWFORD: When you went back to Edwards, did you berley there again? Or did you even have to berley?

HAMILTON: Oh, there were Sharks around straight away. 

CRAWFORD: Even before berleying?

HAMILTON: Even before berleying, yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, your charter fellow was happy. He’d got his White Pointers, and their data collection kicked in, as described in the permit. Did you even have to bait?

HAMILTON: We did.

CRAWFORD: That's right, because he wasn't just trying to bring them into circling, to test his device.

HAMILTON: Yeah, they needed a reaction. 

CRAWFORD: So, what was the response by the White Pointers? I presume they started circling? Level 3 Interest?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Did they generate higher intensity responses?

HAMILTON: Yep. Not all the time. It took a bit.

CRAWFORD: What kind of berley and bait?

HAMILTON: They were spilling Tuna oil that they brought from Australia. Stinky, greasy shit. And they had a bit of old dead Salmon, and they had a bit of frozen Mackerel that was minced up. 

CRAWFORD: Minced?

HAMILTON: Yeah. There was some whole. Have you seen those orange Craypot [sniffers??]? About as big as a 40-ounce rum bottle. You put your bait inside, and clip it together. They put all the bits and heads in there, smothered it with Tuna oil, and then just threw it over the side.

CRAWFORD: And then, basically the waves and everything else just carried it away ...

HAMILTON: In the current. 

CRAWFORD: Right. Did you get the sense that the White Pointers were really going after the bait? That this was more like feeding behaviour than just casual interest?

HAMILTON: Yeah, because they didn’t want them to bite it and take it. So, they were just sort of basically getting the reaction, and pulling it away so that it wouldn’t be taken. Well, these Sharks were getting a bit pissed off they weren’t getting fed. There was one big female in particular. She was coming in hard. She got aggressive. She bit the boat. Because she wasn’t getting what she came for. 

CRAWFORD: There's going to be some type of a threshold. When a White Pointer's  behaviour goes from Level 3 to Level 4.

HAMILTON: It didn’t take long. And I know roughly how much those Sharks, pre the DOC permits, how much they were being fed by the cage divers. And they were having big chunks of Tuna. 

CRAWFORD: Well, prior to the DOC permits, there was nothing preventing them.

HAMILTON: No, no. There was nothing preventing them. So those Sharks were quite used to having a good old snack. The ones we encountered, when they started pulling the snack away - the Tuna oil and stuff - they got pretty angry, pretty quickly. 

CRAWFORD: Was that the one time you’ve seen angry White Pointers?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Well, it was on two days. But yeah.

CRAWFORD: When you think about White Pointer behaviour, things that you saw that made you think "This Shark is angry now. This Shark is ready to take a piece out of something." What were those Level 4 behaviours? How were they different from Level 3 Interest? 

HAMILTON: It was an attack from deeper.

CRAWFORD: Coming up? Angle of approach?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Faster. 

CRAWFORD: And speed. A bit faster, or very fast?

HAMILTON: Oh, just a bit faster. Not lightning fast.

CRAWFORD: Ok. But they can go lightning fast. So, angle and speed?

HAMILTON: And eyes.

CRAWFORD: What about the eyes?

HAMILTON: When a Shark opens its mouth, its eyes sort of roll back. They’re not even looking. 

CRAWFORD: Yeah, here's a membrane that goes over the eye. 

HAMILTON: Yeah. So, they’re on full bite mode, you know?

CRAWFORD: Anything in terms of the jerkiness of them moving around? Anything about fin dropping, or body arching, or anything like that?

HAMILTON: Not arching, but they would turn quite quickly - like really spin on it. Instead of just cruising by and turning out there, they would just come back in real quickly. Quite often with tail and dorsal fin out of the water. Splashing.

CRAWFORD: How many White Pointers at a time? How many were in the region, versus how many were engaged at a time?

HAMILTON: One day they had maybe seven, eight, nine individuals. 

CRAWFORD: At one time?

HAMILTON: Yeah. But, more often than not, one or two. 

CRAWFORD: One or two that were in close, at a time?

HAMILTON: In close, yeah. But quite often they would change over the day.

CRAWFORD: When there was some Level 4 attitude, were there multiple in close at one time?

HAMILTON: No. One-on-one. 

CRAWFORD: Although there were others around? Usually there was still only one that was in close at a time?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: That’s an important observation too. 

HAMILTON: And like we talked about, the first year they were doing this as soon as Peter turned up - no Sharks for us. Gone. They heard that boat, and they went straight to him.

CRAWFORD: Even though you had them originally around your boat?

HAMILTON: They were coming and going frequently. And then as soon as he turned up - gone. To him.

CRAWFORD: What was the time lag on that? Five minutes? Half an hour?

HAMILTON: He was in the distance. Maybe a kilometre. Hadn’t even dropped his anchor. And they were gone. They just had nothing to do with us. Yeah.

5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS

CRAWFORD: [With regard to] the famous incident that I heard about from several different people, including Allan Anderson from Karitane who was in Paterson Inlet at the time. He talked about the number of people that would go down to the Halfmoon Bay wharf. That there were actually three White Pointers that were making a daily circuit in the Bay, one large, two smaller - actually coming within distance that you could see them from the wharf. And people that were coming down to the wharf to see them, about the same time of day - like clockwork?

HAMILTON: Could well have been. Because the nets went out, and they caught them.

CRAWFORD: They caught two of them. So perhaps that was the same event then. The fish that you saw briefly in that incident, was the day before they got caught? Something like that?

HAMILTON: Yeah, prior to that. 

CRAWFORD: Within a short time. Ok. It might, and it might not have been, one of the White Pointers that were caught in that particular deployment of the Sharknets in Halfmoon Bay. You’ve already said that back in the day, when White Pointers were spotted in the Bay, the nets would go out. Is that pretty much what the case was, in this instance?

HAMILTON: I would imagine so. 

CRAWFORD: Do you know where the nets went out?

HAMILTON: They were out that side of the Bay, sort of in front of the beaches.

CRAWFORD: The northwestern side of the Bay?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: There are a couple of bays with swimming beaches on the northwest side of the Bay. And there's at least one big swimming beach on the south side of the Bay. That I've been to.

HAMILTON: I was alongside, when they lifted the nets. I went out and took a group of people out. 

CRAWFORD: It was a big deal?

HAMILTON: It was a massive deal. We loaded up the boat with twenty-odd people, went out there, and watched them lift the net.

CRAWFORD: Which bay was this in? Do you recall? 

HAMILTON: It was just off the beaches, right about there. 

CRAWFORD: You were out there. Probably was a bunch of boats that were out there ...

HAMILTON: It was only 300, 400 metres from the wharf, where they put the nets.

CRAWFORD: Had the nets been put in just that one location? There weren’t different nets at a whole bunch different locations?

HAMILTON: As far as I know. Zane will be able to tell you. Zane was a young lad on the boat, crewing that day.

CRAWFORD: So, you saw the nets come out of the water with the two White Pointers. Well, actually this is a good question. Based on the fact that you had just seen a White Pointer the day before, and then the Sharks you saw come out of the nets. Did they look to be approximately the same size?

HAMILTON: The big one did, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you hear from anybody else about the behaviour of these Sharks, prior to those two getting caught in the nets?

HAMILTON: No. All I heard was that they were doing the circuit.

CRAWFORD: Coming in on something like a regular basis?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Whether it was evening or morning, I don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: They were doing the circuit. Out go the nets. And then did you hear about any other observations of White Pointers round Halfmoon Bay - after those two animals were caught?

HAMILTON: No.  

CRAWFORD: Do you remember hearing about - prior to being caught, whether there were two or three White Pointers doing that circuit? I've heard both ways.

HAMILTON: No, not sure of the details. Because we had been away for a number of days.

CRAWFORD: Right. I’ll talk to Zane about that. Alright. So, this is obviously a natural break point in your experience with the White Pointers. Was that the only time as an adult that you knew of White Pointers in the Bay? When these nets were set, and those two Sharks were caught?

HAMILTON: As an adult, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. The White Pointers were protected in the mid-'90s. From the time of that incident until protection, were there any other instances that you heard of, where nets were put out in order to catch a White Pointer that had been seen in the Bay? Whether they caught anything or not? 

HAMILTON: Joe had nets around there, that were deployed when there was a Shark coming into the Bay.

CRAWFORD: Right. Peter said that these nets were specifically for White Pointers. I'm guessing that was in reference to the mesh size?

HAMILTON: Yeah, they were big mesh, big strong string. Nothing else would get caught in it. Apart from an Elephant, if you set it in the bush, you know?

CRAWFORD: You're a fisherman ... when you saw the Sharks hoisted, were they entangled in the net itself, or in the rigging? Do you remember?

HAMILTON: How do you mean 'the rigging'?

CRAWFORD: The lines. For example, there was a picture in the papers about three weeks ago, about a White Pointer up in Hawke's Bay that had been caught up in a Codpotting trap. Its tail was entangled in the rigging as opposed to ...

HAMILTON: Ah no, I think they were caught in the net.

CRAWFORD: Ok. In think that's all I have for that incident, those two incidences. But on a related note ... some people on the mainland have said that there was this old-school perspective, that when you saw a Shark, you shot it. It was a personal safety issue. When you were growing up, did you hear of that kind of shooting mentality? What I’m trying to get to here is ... setnets versus shooting.

HAMILTON: Yeah. Well, as far as growing up ... and I know if it was my Kids in dinghies, jumping off the wharf, and that - a good Shark would have been a dead Shark. I wouldn’t want my kids jumping off the wharf, if there was a 12-foot Shark cruising by every night at 5 o'clock. And the kids are out there after school, you know? You’d want to get rid of the threat. And because you could in those days, people did.

CRAWFORD: There was no law against it. And the tricky part on this is that some people have said that while the targeted Shark netting does not continue ... or at least, is perceived as not continuing for White Pointers around this region in particular. It's just not the same on the other side of Foveaux Strait. I don’t know if it’s different kinds of White Pointer behaviour around beaches, or proximity to beaches, or whatever the case may be. But getting back to the point, shooting is different from setnetting in that regard - partly because you don’t have to set any fishing gear to shoot a White Pointer. But based on what I've heard, there are some people who feel strongly that there is still a substantial level of White Pointer control going on - independent of the legal protection. And whether it’s true or not, some people think that some Islanders are still shooting White Pointers whenever they see them. 

HAMILTON: No, I don’t believe that. It’s just too much at stake. I haven’t heard of it. It may happen, but if it happens it doesn’t happen in my immediate circles, or people that I’m talking to.

CRAWFORD: You are a lifelong member of this small community. If it was still happening, I think you would know. And based on what I've heard, there just have not been many White Pointers seen in the Bay since protection. Some would argue that therefore, there hasn't been a perceived need to kill White Pointers in the Bay over the past couple of decades.

HAMILTON: Not in the Bay. They’ve been at Dead Man’s Beach just round. But I haven’t heard of any sightings right there.

CRAWFORD: Not like they did with those two or three White Pointers on the regular circuit of Halfmoon Bay back in the '90s. 

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. It’s a complex thing. And remember that peoples' impressions, outsiders' impressions of what’s happening here on Stewart Island ... they could very well take on a life of their own. 

HAMILTON: Well, I've never even heard of a Shark being shot. 

CRAWFORD: Really? I wonder how can this idea be so prevalent on the mainland?

HAMILTON: I mean, you would think those stories would come out in the pub, in a drunk boast or something. But I’ve never heard of it. I’ve never heard of a Shark being shot. You know, coming up to the boat, and being shot. Or even shot at. 

CRAWFORD: I think people here on the Island need to know what people elsewhere think. As much as I think people elsewhere need to know what the Islanders think. On a whole bunch of these issues that exist around the White Pointers. I sometimes have difficulty, because what I’m trying to do is help ensure that the issues are addressed, without trying to offend anybody, without accusing anybody of anything. So, this is a me thing. If anything's awkward, it’s me on this one. 

HAMILTON: Well, it takes a lot to offend me. I’ll tell you that for sure. [both chuckle]

6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS

 CRAWFORD: What’s your first memory of cage tour dive operations in general? When do you remember them starting? 

HAMILTON: It’s hard to actually put a date on it. 

CRAWFORD: Roughly. Just roughly.

HAMILTON: Five years ago, maybe. Six maybe. 

CRAWFORD: When you first learned of them, where was it happening? Or did you even know? 

HAMILTON: Oh, didn’t really know. Like the boat would just appear in the Bay…

CRAWFORD: This was Peter Scott's boat?

HAMILTON: Peter’s boat, yeah. It was only for a matter of days. He was out round the Islands. But I think in the early days, they were trying lots of different areas. I even saw him, he had his cage in at Ackers Point, just out the bay here, at one stage early on. Whether they spotted something, or thought they’d have a go ... they obviously were feeling their way around. Where was going to be the best spot to make the business. 

CRAWFORD: Right. To be clear, Clinton was also here attracting White Pointers to his boat for DOC research - prior to what Peter was doing. 

HAMILTON: I think so, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: And Clinton can’t just summon the White Pointers to his boat for tagging either. Anybody that’s tagging White Pointers his way is also using berley to bring them in close. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. So, we’ve got something that started five plus years ago. There was an exploratory phase, and then did it settle down into a couple of key places - as far as you knew?

HAMILTON: Yeah. They just seemed to be out at Edwards all the time. 

CRAWFORD: So, definitely in the Titi Islands, and there seemed to be something about Edwards in particular. Let's go back to the first year of cage dive operation, because there wouldn’t have been any prior conditioning or anything going on with the White Pointers at that point. Peter has said there were just consistently more White Pointers at Edwards Island. I wonder what it is about Edwards Island. I mean, there are other islands in the Titi Island chain. And people do see White Pointers elsewhere. But even from the get-go, it just seems that Edwards Island had more consistency and greater numbers of White Pointers. Why do you think that was?

HAMILTON: I think about Edwards, it’s a big long skinny island. And it creates quite an eddy. If the tide's running against one side, round the other side it will be quite easy to swim. And then when the tide changes, on the other side there’s a big eddy. I’m pretty sure, you know not 100% sure, but I think the Sharks find it an easier place to live. Not having to fight the tide flow all the time. They could actually swim around the island, and just get out of the tide a wee bit.

CRAWFORD: What’s the coastline like on either side of Edwards Island? Is it rocky, is it sandy?

HAMILTON: There’s no sand beaches there. It’s all rock. There’s a reasonable Seal population, all around it.

CRAWFORD: All the way around the Island?

HAMILTON: All the way around, yeah.

CRAWFORD: And Seal pupping? 

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: So, for whatever reasons, the tour dive operation gravitates to Edwards. As a matter of fact, both of the cage dive operations do - when Mike Haines started his operation. Ok. Have you seen them go through their operation? They show up, they anchor, and then they start berleying?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Within 500 metres or a kilometre?

HAMILTON: Of the island?

CRAWFORD: No, you to them.

HAMILTON: Oh, closer. Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Close enough to see what's actually happening?

HAMILTON: Oh, absolutely. I’ve made a point of it. 

CRAWFORD: Alright. So, they're anchored, they're berleying. In general, how long is it between berleying and people going in the cage? I wouldn’t expect you to necessarily to see the White Pointers that are attracted by the berleying, but I expect you would see the commotion, the people going in the cage. 

HAMILTON: Yeah. I’ve only actually seen that activity a couple of times. Only in the last two seasons when I was out there with guys from Western Australia to test their anti-Shark device. That’s the only time that I’ve been close enough to really see what’s going on like that.

CRAWFORD: Alright. So, let's go back to what you know, in general, about their operations. 

HAMILTON: They’ve basically got people in the water within minutes ...

CRAWFORD: Within minutes of arriving to Edwards?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: That’s a pretty strong indication that either they didn’t even need to berley, or if they did berley - that the response was fairly quick. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: They anchor, they berley, the White Pointers come in closer proximity to the cage, they run for about five hours, then lift the cage, lift the anchor and go back to port. Do you think that kind of cage tour dive operation has an important and lasting effect on the White Pointers? 

HAMILTON: I think the Sharks have come to be very familiar with the operations. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Do you think that the operations have had a lasting effect on the White Pointers' behaviour? I mean, all things being equal, a behavioural change that lasts an hour is less likely to be important in the big scheme of things - compared to a behavioural change that lasts days, weeks, years. See what I mean? 

HAMILTON: Well it must have, to a certain extent, because we never even use to see Sharks. And now we see them all the time, whether we’re cleaning or not. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Prior to the cage tour dive operations, you had Codpotted in those same waters. Maybe only occasionally seeing White Pointers in that region?

HAMILTON: Oh, never.

CRAWFORD: Never?

HAMILTON: Out there, no. 

CRAWFORD: But now consistently in relatively high numbers?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, to you that is very clear evidence that the behaviour of the White Pointers - even just at that level - has changed in a lasting way?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. There are some people who are strongly of the opinion that the cage dive operations continue to actually feed the White Pointers. Not just a berley mince, but full on feeding of Fish in whole or in part. Prior to the DOC permits that started last year, there was no prohibition of feeding the White Pointers. Now, under the DOC permits, aside from berley the operators can only use a tow bait to bring the White Pointers into closer proximity to the cage. But if a tow bait gets taken, that's it for the day. And the operators have to do everything they can to prevent that from happening, and report when it does. But there are still people who think that the cage dive operations continue to actually feed the White Pointers.

HAMILTON: There are conditions to the permit. I don’t know completely, exactly how they are. But they’re only allowed one or two pieces of throw bait per day. When they’re taken that’s all they’re allowed. We have been told in a public meeting that the Department of Conservation have put secret shoppers on their boats, and these operator or operators - they wouldn’t mention any names - have been in breach of their permits. 

CRAWFORD: 'In breach' specifically on the feeding?

HAMILTON: On the feeding, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Where the 'secret shoppers' were making observations, and reporting back to DOC that the operators were feeding the White Pointers? On at least some occasions?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Bearing in mind that these permits have only been in effect for a year. Up until now, the Sharks have been ... I wouldn’t say ‘fed’ ... but, they have been allowed to take more of the big bait. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That is a good point, because prior to the DOC permit, there were no constraints on the where or the how the cage dive operations ran. So, they wouldn’t have been in violation, even if they had 'fed' the White Pointers. But to clarify ... prior to the DOC permits, when there were no conditions, to your knowledge were the operators regularly 'feeding' the White Pointers.

HAMILTON: No, no. 

CRAWFORD: But there are some surveillance reports, shared by DOC at public meetings here on Stewart Island, that there have been at least some instances when the White Pointers have been 'fed' by the operators?

HAMILTON: Well, of having their throw bait allowance taken up, and continuing with additional throw baits when they were supposed to stop.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Thank you for that clarification. Now, it is still a form of 'feeding' in the sense that there is a fish part in the White Pointers' mouth, as opposed to just the smell of berley. There is something to chew and swallow. 

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Some people have said that - independent of the cage dive operations - there are other people who go out there to Edwards and feed the White Pointers. I guess just for the thrill of seeing a White Pointer. To your knowledge, does that type of personal feeding behaviour happen?

HAMILTON: It may happen occasionally, but I haven’t seen it. I’m not party to it, so I don’t know.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What’s your understanding of the response of the White Pointers around Edwards Island to the berley trail? What have you seen, or what have you heard? 

HAMILTON: They just come in. They come in fast.

CRAWFORD: 'Fast' in terms of their response time, not necessarily their swimming speed?

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the berley alone could provide the stimulus for White Pointers to get to Level 4 attitude or aggression? 

HAMILTON: Not from what I’ve seen. 

CRAWFORD: Berley would lead to more Level 2 Swim-By or Level 3 Interest?

HAMILTON: Yeah.

CRAWFORD: So, with berley only, you might get a swim-by, you might get some circling, you might get some curious stuff. The same kind of responses you see from the White Pointers when you're Codpotting? I mean, obviously you're not berleying on purpose to attract the White Pointers ...

HAMILTON: There’s definitely a berley trail. 

CRAWFORD: Sure. It’s blood, and to a certain extent some guts or heads or frames - whatever the birds don't snatch. So, it’s not exactly the same, but similar in general. Would it be reasonable to expect the behaviour of White Pointers in response to your Codpotting operation, to be generally similar to their behaviour in response to the cage dive berley trail?

HAMILTON: Generally similar. I don’t think it’s as tasty to them. 

CRAWFORD: What do you think would be more 'tasty' about the cage dive operations?

HAMILTON: They use the Tuna. 

CRAWFORD: Right. And what do you think it is with Tuna anyways?

HAMILTON: It’s high protein, high food value. It’s not like Seal blubber, but it's still high food value. I’ve seen them just swim past Blue Cod frames. They’ll smell it, but they won't necessarily take it. 

CRAWFORD: Do you think the White Pointers have a good sense of the quality of potential food that they’re considering?

HAMILTON: Or they’ve just eaten something else, and they’re not hungry. Either, or.

CRAWFORD: Right. If we had an understanding of what the spatial distribution of White Pointers was like ten years ago, prior to the start of cage dive operations ... and then we compared it to what the distribution is like now, after several years of cage dive operations ... do you think that there would be a greater concentration of White Pointers around Edwards Island now?

HAMILTON: I wouldn’t know. All I know is that if you put a boat in the water out there now ...

CRAWFORD: Ok. What I’m trying to figure out is if people think that the cage dive operations cause the White Pointers to associate with the place, with Edwards Island - above and beyond what they would have been doing anyways. Do you see what I’m getting at?

HAMILTON: I don’t know how the Shark populations work. Clinton probably knows more about that. They’re may be family groups perhaps, I don’t actually know. There may be twenty Sharks that every year come back to Edwards, and twenty Sharks every year that come back to Bench. I don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Imagine we took a sailboat with no motor, and we just sailed it over to the lee side of Edwards Island with nobody else around. Do you think that the cage dive operations have increased the occurrence of Level 3 Interest? Have they increased the circling behaviour around a sailboat like that, compared to before the cage dive operations began?

HAMILTON: I would imagine so. 

CRAWFORD: Why do you think it’s likely?

HAMILTON: Because I have been anchored there with engine off, all electronics off, just sitting there and we’ve had a Shark just appear and come up and poke round.

CRAWFORD: Ok. I'm presuming you motored in. So, there was that cue on arrival.

HAMILTON: But there was nothing there for a while. 

CRAWFORD: Alright, fair enough. What about an anchor? A lot of people don’t realize that the sound of an anchor can be a cue as well. 

HAMILTON: Well yeah, because it’s always rattling around.

CRAWFORD: Sure. There's potentially a noise cue that something is coming in. There's a visual cue that something is floating up there. There's a sonic cue when the anchor's coming down. The whole package. Who knows how these White Pointers perceive their world. But you think it’s likely that just the presence of a floating boat, without any other cues - that the White Pointers would respond simply to that?

HAMILTON: I would think it’s likely, yeah.

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's talk a bit about motors. Do you think that the White Pointers behave differently to different motors?

HAMILTON: I would imagine so. 

CRAWFORD: Why would you imagine that?

HAMILTON: Because they are so distinctive. And just harking back to, once again when I was out there with the boys from Western Australia, We had three Sharks around, we were getting a bit of data, Peter came over from Bluff, we saw him on the horizon, and as soon as he was within a kilometre or so - they were gone. Then he came and anchored very close - and they were there with him. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. When the cage goes in, do you think that the White Pointers respond differently if the cage was there versus not there?

HAMILTON: I can honestly say that I wouldn’t be qualified to even comment on that, because I’ve never had to do it.

CRAWFORD: Ok. What about the presence of people inside the cage? Do you think the White Pointers would respond differently if there were Humans in the cage, compared to if there were no Humans in the cage?

HAMILTON: Well, I would imagine that they would. The Sharks have got so much sensory stuff going on ... I don’t know how forcefields and people’s magnetic fields work, but surely that must connect with a Shark in some way. Whether it’s going to excite it, or deter it, or make it inquisitive, you know? They must pick up on a Human in there. They can’t not. Even the smell of a Human, you know?

CRAWFORD: We are pretty smelly creatures. Ok. Do you think that White Pointers that have been around cage dive operations would respond differently to Humans, if they encountered them later on - without berley and cages and all the rest of that? Do you think that they would be more curious about Humans on or in the water?

HAMILTON: Well, they’re being berleyed and baited close to the cage, and they can come within a foot or two of Human beings. So, there must be some association with berley and Humans. It’s just ... they’re right there every time. Every day. Berley, Human. Berley, Human. Berley, Human. It will be imprinted in them. It has to be.

CRAWFORD: Do you think that the White Pointers out in the Titi Islands during cage dive operations move up and down the coastline or across Foveaux Straits? Do you have any sense of that at all?

HAMILTON: I don’t know. I wouldn’t even know if they’re the same Sharks, or different Sharks, or whatever. 

CRAWFORD: Right. That’s an important part of this discussion.

HAMILTON: It clearly is. But without tracking Science, we will never be able to determine that.

CRAWFORD: We do know by observations from the cage dive operators, and from Clinton’s work, that there is a much higher degree of repeat observations on individual White Pointers. But nobody runs these cage dive operations or have these kinds of projects up and down the coast of Stewart Island. So, we don’t know to what extent on a daily or hourly or weekly basis, the White Pointers move around. And we have no records to say what the response of any individual White Pointer would be, after being exposed to cage dive operations, to a Human swimming in the water. And it's not as though people are likely to be swimming over around the Titi Islands.

HAMILTON: Nobody much.

CRAWFORD: Nobody much. Is there anybody swimming out at the Titi Islands?

HAMILTON: Well, there used to be quite a bit of Pāua diving activity. And there still is, especially in the winter. And there would have been some amateur diving, spearfishing, and netting out there. 

CRAWFORD: Was there a change in White Pointer interactions with Pāua divers from before cage dive operations and since? 

HAMILTON: Oh, the Pāua divers just normally steer clear of the place until winter now. 

CRAWFORD: Now. But did not back in the day?

HAMILTON: No. It was just Pāua diving. 

CRAWFORD: But as some people correctly point out, there are several different factors that are changing over that same period of time. The Seal numbers apparently were going up. It could be that the White Pointer numbers were going up as well - there were just more of them at a time that coincided with the start of cage dive operations. Maybe not so much that they were there, but they were naturally shy of Humans. Maybe there was just an increase in abundance, and the same levels of curiosity with Humans. You see what I mean?

HAMILTON: But who would know? We never saw them. Like we never, never saw them. How would we know if they were there or not there? 

CRAWFORD: You’re right. You’re absolutely right. It's a combined issue of White Pointer abundance, White Pointer behaviour, and our own Human perception.

HAMILTON: Now we know that they’re there, because we see them all the time. They are quite familiar with boats.

CRAWFORD: Some people have said that there was always common knowledge among Pāua divers that they should stay away from the Titi Islands during the time when the White Pointers came around. Was that something that you heard?

HAMILTON: I’ve never been a Pāua diver. I don't know.

CRAWFORD: So, if it was common knowledge, it wasn’t part of your common knowledge?

HAMILTON: No, no. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's get back to the idea that if a White Pointer's behaviour is affected by cage dive operations, to what extant would that effect diminish over time? These things can be learned, and these things can be unlearned. Or do you think that it is the type of thing where that animal is changed for life?

HAMILTON: I don’t know their chemistry. But I would think things could be unlearned.

CRAWFORD: Or forgotten. Decline over time. 

HAMILTON: Yeah, yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Is there anything else from yourself, your mates or the old-timers about the potential effects of the cage dive operations on the behaviour of the White Pointers?

HAMILTON: No. I’ve just noticed that they are ... well, they’re not shy anymore. If you go out there with people, anywhere round those Islands, the Sharks, they’ll just come straight up. They’ll have a look. If there’s nothing on offer, they’ll wag you.

CRAWFORD: What about following behaviour? Do you think the White Pointers follow boats? Boats of any kind, not just the specific boats associated with the cage dive operations?

HAMILTON: I imagine they do. But my boat's too fast. They just wouldn’t keep up.

CRAWFORD: So, you think that they could or would - but that speed is an important factor in the cut-off? 

HAMILTON: Oh, I would say so. Definitely. 

CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen any Sharks following your boat for some distance, say 500 metres?

HAMILTON: I’ve shifted spots away from a Shark, to another spot maybe 500 metres or whatever. And not knowing that it was a particular Shark following me ... but within a matter of minutes there is a Shark at the new location. 

CRAWFORD: And it could be the same Shark.

HAMILTON: It could be, yeah.

CRAWFORD: A Shark appeared within a short period of time. Impossible sometimes to tell - unless there was a distinguishing feature or whatever.

HAMILTON: Unless you make a study of it. And we haven’t. 

CRAWFORD: Right. It gets back to the need for behavioural study at the level of individual White Pointers. Do you have any other examples where you or others thought that a White Pointer was following a boat? 

HAMILTON: No. Only that rumour that I heard about Peter Scott calling up on the telephone or the radio ... whether or not it’s been made up by someone, to get some rumours going against the Shark cage divers.

CRAWFORD: You weren’t there, but what did you hear? 

HAMILTON: I just heard that Peter had to call ahead to the wharf or whoever was at the wharf saying "I’ve got a Shark on me. If there’s kids jumping off the wharf, get them out."

CRAWFORD: In the story, how far away from the wharf was he?

HAMILTON: Oh, I’ve got no idea. You believe nothing what you hear, and only half of what you see. You know? [both chuckle] 

CRAWFORD: Ok, fine. So, there is that story - and it is a most frequently cited story. Recognizing it for what it is. Do you know of any other instances where White Pointers were following boats? 

HAMILTON: No. No.

CRAWFORD: The other guys in the fleet, the other Codpotters, has anybody else talked about seeing White Pointer following behaviour?.

HAMILTON: Not that I've heard. And you know, we would have to be going pretty slow. As I understand from my limited amount of reading that I’ve done, unless a Shark is in attack mode, it doesn’t want to expend the energy. It just wants to cruise along gently. And to even keep going at 5, 6, 7 knots - it would just be a huge effort.

CRAWFORD: Well, your story about the very first time you saw a White Pointer. It was doing about 7 knots right?

HAMILTON: Yeah. it wasn’t for long. It just didn’t want to hang there. 

CRAWFORD: And if there was a Shark following Peter’s boat into the Bay, who knows for how far? When the White Pointer actually started to follow. It could have been just outside the Bay, rather than having followed all the way from the Titi Islands. And I don’t know about Pete’s transit times or whatever, but ...

HAMILTON: Oh, he does chug along slowly. 

CRAWFORD: For him to go from the Titi Islands to the wharf in Halfmoon Bay, what would you figure?

HAMILTON: 40 minutes.

CRAWFORD: And he would be going about what speed.

HAMILTON: Probably 5 knots. Pretty slow. His boat, normally you'd chug along at maybe 8 knots. But because he’s got people, and saving money on fuel, which is the biggest expense. So, you’re just chugging along. And that is one of the biggest worries to this community ... because he does chug in and out so slowly, that perhaps if they are in following mode, they could quite easily follow him. He comes chugging in here, and they’ll go up and around the Inlet, and he’ll go and anchor in Golden Bay. And it’s my feeling that because those Sharks out there associate, I feel they know the sound of his boat. If he's coming and going, just willy-nilly, then he could be dragging those Sharks around. I'm not saying he is. I'm saying he could be.

CRAWFORD: He could be dragging White Pointers from the Titi Islands into ...

HAMILTON: Halfmoon Bay, Paterson’s Inlet.

CRAWFORD: He could be. Well, this very much gets to the idea of to what extent those fish move around doesn’t it? But when White Pointers are already in Halfmoon Bay, to what extent do people actually see them when they're there? And there are people in and out all the time. Between the ferries and the fisherman and the charters and the taxis and the yachties and whoever. That’s a very busy Bay, at least in the summer. And the sense that I get from talking to people, is that there just aren’t a lot of sightings of White Pointers in Halfmoon Bay.

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: And whether or not there has been an increase or decrease over time, the observations are almost so rare that it’s difficult to even track changes over time. 

HAMILTON: Every summer there are sightings, specifically at Dead Man’s Beach, which is just round the point. I myself have had quite a few sightings around there. 

CRAWFORD: What do you think about that place, Dead Man’s Beach. Why there, of all the places?

HAMILTON: Don’t know. 

CRAWFORD: What might it be, if it was anything?

HAMILTON: There is an old mooring there. A couple of Cod fisherman in particular will go and clean their catch there. 

CRAWFORD: And we do know that the White Pointers, on occasion, will interact with Cod frames. 

HAMILTON: Yeah. That's one reason. 

CRAWFORD: Is there a Seal colony along there too?

HAMILTON: No, there’s no Seals there. 

CRAWFORD: But it’s also just outside the mouth of Halfmoon Bay, so you’ve got currents ...

HAMILTON: Well, it’s between here and Edwards - where we know there’s a big population. 

CRAWFORD: So, it could also be kind of a fringe thing? Who knows?

HAMILTON: Yeah. Who knows?

CRAWFORD: Some people have said that they have concerns about the cage dive operations distracting the White Pointers from doing other things that are important for them. Whether it’s feeding or reproduction or whatever they do that’s important to them. Have you heard anybody kind of express those kinds of concerns? 

HAMILTON: I myself wouldn’t even buy into that argument anyway.

CRAWFORD: Why not?

HAMILTON: Just because the operations are there, the Seals are milling are around anyway. So, if the Shark wanted to dispatch and go and bugger off and get a Seal anyway ...

CRAWFORD: How easy do you think it is for these White Pointers out at the Titi Islands to actually get a feed of Seal?

HAMILTON: I’ve only seen a Shark breach on a Seal once. 

CRAWFORD: Out of how many years working on the water? Thirty?

HAMILTON: Yeah. And I quickly steamed over there, and all there was a pile of blood and fur and stuff. All I saw was the splash, and so I went over there. It definitely was a breach attack. But from what I’ve heard of the studies they’ve done at South Africa, they have a lot of misses before they actually get one. 

CRAWFORD: Well, you would see a miss too, depending on the nature of the attack. You might see a missed attack as a breach. But then you might not. Another factor is that you’re out there during the daytime hours. I don’t know anything at all about Seal behaviour, or how it changes over the course of the day and night. But if you’re thinking about a predator that at least in part uses speed and stealth, night-time might be the right-time.

HAMILTON: Well I think if you’re a cunning Seal, you would be ashore.

CRAWFORD: You would be ashore at night. Do you know anybody that has any experience over in the Titi Islands at night?

HAMILTON: No. 

CRAWFORD: Except the people who seasonally live on those Islands. Maybe.

HAMILTON: But they’re not on the water though.

CRAWFORD: Right. But in general, getting back to that line of concern that some people have that the cage dive operations are in some way interfering with important work that the animals are supposed to be doing?

HAMILTON: No, I don’t really buy into that. 

CRAWFORD: Have you heard anybody else expressing those kinds of concerns? 

HAMILTON: No. One thing that amuses me with DOC is that the White Pointers - they’re fully protected under the Wildlife Act since the 1990s. As is our Kiwi, the national bird. Now, if we were to set up a hide in the bush, and bait the Kiwi with worms until it got so aggravated it threw itself at the cage, or broke a beak, or started losing feathers - then we would be bloody outlawed. We'd have our permit revoked, and there would be public outrage. But somehow these cage dive operators are allowed to berley the Sharks, tease them with these throw baits until they become so aggravated, they throw themselves at the cage and injure themselves. The Sharks out there that we can see are scratched. In the YouTube video from Shark Week, we can see they’ve been attacking the cages, and got stuck in the cages. And this is a fully protected species. How is that allowed to happen? 

CRAWFORD: This is an important topic. You’ve taken it in a new direction by now talking, not so much about the effect on the White Pointers that ultimately might have negative effects for Humans, but rather the effect on the White Pointers that potentially have negative effects on themselves. To a certain extent, you’re talking about two things. First, I don’t know if I would call it emotional, but behavioural distress, frustration, or whatever you want to call it. The anxiety of being drawn into feeding mode, and the potential frustration of not getting the food. 

HAMILTON: Oh, yeah. When I say ‘teasing’ - I don’t mean that lightly. Those Sharks are being teased.

CRAWFORD: But you’re also raising something else too. You’re raising the possibility of physical harm. It's both. Let's deal with the teasing first. Do you think that teasing has a lasting negative affect on the White Pointers? 

HAMILTON: Well, anybody that gets teased, a Human that gets teased over their life ...

CRAWFORD: Right. But some people would argue that these are fish. They are animals that don't have the same kinds of emotional responses that Humans have.

HAMILTON: I know. I don’t know how their brain works, but when a Human gets teased there is a lasting effect. 

CRAWFORD: What I’m asking you is, do you think that these White Pointers suffer significantly or lastingly from that kind of frustration? I know It’s a difficult question. And I’m not asking you for 'the answer'. I’m just asking what do you think?

HAMILTON: I know that they become aggressive at the time. But I’ve got no idea how long that would last.

CRAWFORD: So, maybe it comes back to our previous discussion about the Level 2, 3, 4 behaviours. Do you think that the teasing and frustration are in part responsible for moving White Pointers from Level 3 with curiosity, circling around - to Level 4 with attitude?

HAMILTON: Oh, definitely. Most definitely. You can’t dangle a bone in front of a dog for too long, can you? There’s going to be a reaction. Same with a Shark. You can’t dangle that piece of meat in front of it, and pull it away, and pull it away, and pull it away. It will become aggressive. 

CRAWFORD: But does it really matter to a Shark, if it gets upset? That it’s not getting food it was expecting?

HAMILTON: I don’t know if it matters to the Shark, if it becomes upset. But it matters to the Shark if it lunges out and attacks that cage, and then breaks a tooth or gets cut. 

CRAWFORD: Do you believe that happens? Do you believe that there is physical damage to the White Pointers from Level 4 behaviour directed at the cages?

HAMILTON: I haven’t seen it myself. But just going on YouTube, the video that has been put up from Edwards - those Sharks attacking the cages can’t not break a tooth. If the Shark that attacked that little boat at Dead Man’s Beach just a couple of years ago ... you can’t just bite an outboard motor or an aluminium boat, without breaking a tooth. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. That story is not yet on my record. Who did that happen to, at Dead Man Beach?

HAMILTON: I don’t know, but Margaret Hopkins probably knows more about than me. Colin’s wife. 

CRAWFORD: Perhaps Colin knows more about that as well. Just at least for right now, tell me what you understood happened. 

HAMILTON: Just from someone told someone told someone ... There was a small boat with a Mum, Dad and a couple of kids or whatever, at Dead Man’s Beach. Just a small tinny, I understand. And a Shark come up, and it either had a go at the bow or the outboard motor ... and like left marks, bite marks. Scared them shitless. You know, quite aggressive.

CRAWFORD: So, this wasn’t over at the Titi Islands?

HAMILTON: No, this was here. This was at Dead Man’s Beach. That’s the one that started everything. 

CRAWFORD: When was this, roughly?

HAMILTON: Maybe three summers ago. That started the heated discussion. Yeah.

CRAWFORD: Because it was perceived as a close call?

HAMILTON: Yeah.  

CRAWFORD: Were they fishing? What were they doing?

HAMILTON: I understand they were line-fishing, but I don’t know.

CRAWFORD: So, there might have been some cues. But that’s an extreme encounter. A Level 4 - that we’ve already discussed as being rare. But in what would be referred to as a highly vulnerable vessel. I think maybe the point you were trying to make is ... I’m guessing that you don’t know that there is significant or lasting harm to the fish from that encounter specifically. But there is the potential or the risk for serious harm - both ways?

HAMILTON: Yeah. 

CRAWFORD: Ok. Any other concerns of your own or from other people that you've heard?

HAMILTON: No, not really.

CRAWFORD: Last couple of questions. What do you think is one of the most important questions about White Pointer ecology, behaviour, whatever? What do we not know about them, that we really do need to know more about? We need to put some significant work into figuring out?

HAMILTON: Probably just the individuals, and how far do they travel when they’re here. Do the Edwards Island Sharks or the Bench Island Sharks go to Paterson’s Inlet? We can track them to Hawaii and Samoa. Why can’t we track them locally?

CRAWFORD: Why do you think that’s important?

HAMILTON: Well, just so we know their route, what’s happening, where the populations are, where they’re actually living. Do they live out there, and come in here just to have a look, or what? How close are they coming to our little cosy nook? 

CRAWFORD: Fair enough. In terms of things that DOC should be considering in the cage dive management process ... what do you think is one of the most important actions that they should be considering? 

HAMILTON: Well, they’ve issued permits for Edwards. Just Edwards. Now if those permits are going to be re-issued, and the cage diving is going to continue for the next how many ever years - those boats that operate out of Edwards should not be allowed anywhere near Halfmoon Bay, Horseshoe Bay, Paterson's Inlet - anywhere on main Stewart Island. In case they have following Sharks. 

CRAWFORD: So that’s a preventative measure?

HAMILTON: A preventative measure. You know if the permits are going to continue in their current form. Because it scares me shitless, that slow boat chugging in and out there every day. I think they’re getting new boats, I’m not sure. But they’re just going to have to seriously look at that issue.

Copyright © 2020 Brett Hamilton and Steve Crawford