Anthony O’Rourke
YOB: 1964
Experience: Commercial Fisherman, Fishing Tour Operator
Regions: Stewart Island, Foveaux Strait
Interview Location: Halfmoon Bay, Stewart Island, NZ
Interview Date: 14 December 2015
Post Date: 18 August 2020; Copyright © 2020 Anthony O’Rourke and Steve Crawford
1. EXPERIENCE IN AOTEAROA/NZ COASTAL ENVIRONMENTS
CRAWFORD: Anthony, I believe you said in your introductory remarks, that you were born in Invercargill. What year was that?
O’ROURKE: 1964.
CRAWFORD: At what age do you remember first spending a big chunk of time around the water?
O’ROURKE: My Father use to have a wee row-about-boat, and he use to bring us kids over here from Bluff to Halfmoon Bay. We had a holiday crib here, years ago. He used to be coming here when he was a boy. His Mother actually went to school on the Neck, just over here at this point. They had a schoolhouse there. The story goes that the School Mistress was pregnant at the time, and Nanna was sent over there to help out. So, a bit of history going back.
CRAWFORD: Goes back a few generations.
O’ROURKE: Yeah, yeah. So, not born and bred Islanders, but yeah Grandma was coming here, and then Dad as a boy, and then he was bringing us kids over here. So, we used to up to Paterson Inlet quite a bit. He'd take us up there in his little ride-about, and we used to swim and run around.
CRAWFORD: You had a holiday house here in Halfmoon Bay. I'm guessing that during holidays, and maybe other weekends sometimes too, the family would come over?
O’ROURKE: Not just for the weekend, it would be for the holidays. Might be an Easter or something too. I remember in the summer months coming over here, Dad would take us up. I'd have a snorkel and a facemask.
CRAWFORD: How old were you, do you figure?
O’ROURKE: I remember Dad buying me this facemask. I was about twelve, I think.
CRAWFORD: Where was your crib, your holiday house?
O’ROURKE: This was where I'm living here now, Dundee Street. It was a big old two-storey [weatherboard??] house. That eventually fell over - it was pulled down. Dad built that other little crib there.
CRAWFORD: From the age of about twelve, your memories in terms of the places that you spent time ... I'm presuming Halfmoon Bay?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: And Paterson Inlet?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, a lot of time at Paterson Inlet. Because Dad use to love going up there. We'd go into all the wee nooks and crannies and bays, and play around. Us kids would swim around the water and all that. Get some Scallops.
CRAWFORD: Would it be the case that you'd spend most of your time on the water in Paterson Inlet, based out of your Dad's boat? Or were you poking around on the shoreline?
O’ROURKE: Out of Dad's boat, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Same type of thing at Halfmoon Bay? Or were you poking around as kids on the shoreline more than Paterson Inlet?
O’ROURKE: We use to play in the dinghies around the beaches here and all that. Up *Little Creek and stuff like that. He brought us a wee fibreglass canoe too, we use to play around on that.
CRAWFORD: In both Halfmoon Bay and Paterson Inlet?
O’ROURKE: Well, he'd take us up the Inlet in his boat. But if we weren't going boating for the day, we'd be just hanging around Bathing Beach, and stuff like that there.
CRAWFORD: When you were on the water, you were sometimes boating, sometimes playing around in dinghies, sometimes swimming, sometimes kayaking or canoeing?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. He brought us a little fibreglass canoe, just a play sort of thing.
CRAWFORD: Did you ever do any fishing as a kid? Linefishing?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, we had rod-and-reels on the boat. On his wee boat.
CRAWFORD: Where would you go fishing?
O’ROURKE: We'd go out the front a wee bit. Fish off the [Whero??] probably.
CRAWFORD: At the front of Halfmoon Bay you mean?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, just out the front here. Wouldn't be going too far. Fish Rock, you'd get fish around here. Around the Whero, and stuff like that. Because it wasn't a big launch. I think it was 24-foot long.
CRAWFORD: Ever over to the Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: I don't think we spent a lot of time over there. Not really, I can't remember that.
CRAWFORD: Did you do any day-trips northwest or northeast?
O’ROURKE: No, he didn't spend too much time up that way, or down through here. We just spent most of our time around Paterson Inlet. And that's all as far as we needed to go. 'Cause you'd have just as much fun playing around there and just around here. We didn't need to go any further. And getting across here was quite a big trip for him, I think.
CRAWFORD: What did you say was the length of your Dad's boat?
O’ROURKE: 24-feet long. It had a V8 petrol motor in it. A 230 Crusader Marine. I think it must have slurped quite a bit of petrol [both chuckle] But she'd get up and boogie along, probably do about 25-30 knots. [Block plane hull??], but it was built by a reputable place in town [RD Scott Boatbuilders??], they built this pleasure boat - but they built commercial boats as well.
CRAWFORD: At some point in time, you got some independence here. You started to go off exploring on your own. What age was that?
O’ROURKE: Freedom on the water?
CRAWFORD: Yes. In terms of being able to explore on your own around the water. If you wanted to go kind of poking around, you might expand your range a bit. Or you might start doing different water activities. Or was your experience mostly still family-based like before?
O’ROURKE: Family stuff when we were coming over, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. There's got to be a natural break in your experience, when you either relocated or started doing new activities or a new job. How old would you be when that kind of major change happened next? At some point in time did you move full-time over to Stewart Island? Get a job?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, that's what happened. When I left school, I was at the Freezing Works for quite a few years.
CRAWFORD: In Bluff?
O’ROURKE: No, no. Invercargill. And then, we were over here on a long weekend, it was an Easter or something like that or a Labour Day. Just me, my Dad, and my older Brother. Dad was down in the pub, yakking to one of his old fisherman cobbers there. He come home that night, and he says "How'd you like to have a job on a Crayfishing boat?" I said "Ah, yeah. Give that a go."
CRAWFORD: How old were you at this point?
O’ROURKE: I was twenty. That season, the Freezing Works was finished, and the Crayfishing season was just about to start. So, I jumped on board with that.
CRAWFORD: 1984, roughly?
O’ROURKE: Probably would have been something like that, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Twenty years old, you started fishing. Did you start full-time, or do you start part-time?
O’ROURKE: No, I was full-time. We left Halfmoon Bay, and we travelled right down Sou'West Cape here.
CRAWFORD: Who were you fishing with?
O’ROURKE: It was Ernie Hopkins, on a boat called Seven Seas.
CRAWFORD: Was that Colin's Dad?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: How big a boat?
O’ROURKE: Should be fifty-foot, fifty-ish.
CRAWFORD: And it was a Cray boat, or mixed Cray-Cod operation?
O’ROURKE: No, he just targeted Crayfish. Didn't do any Codding or anything else. It was the same people who actually built Dad's little launch I was talking about before. It was [RD Scott??] who were boat-builders out of Invercargill. This was a double-ender, [canoe stern??], quite a big volume boat. We'd come down here, we'd spend two weeks down here at a time.
CRAWFORD: This boat had freezer capabilities?
O’ROURKE: Yep. Because in those days there was no live fish - it was all tailing. So, you'd tail your fish in the day, and then you'd put it down in the freezer.
CRAWFORD: Right. But at that time ... I've been talking to some people, they're remembering coming down here Crayfishing with no freezers. So, they could only be out for a short period of time. But you had freezers on board?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ice?
O’ROURKE: No, it wasn't ice. It was just a blast freezer. I think pretty much all the other boats had freezers in them. They wouldn't have been dayfishing.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Was it pretty much this region - the southwest corner of the Island that Ernie and you were fishing?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Sou'West Cape - we used to fish around here. Up and down through this passage, and around this area.
CRAWFORD: When you went, it was for a week, ten days, two weeks?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, he would go down there for two weeks as a time.
CRAWFORD: What was the Cray season?
O’ROURKE: It started June, July. And it would go through to about January, I suppose. 'Course there was no quotas in that time. So, as long as the fish were carrying on, they would carry on fishing, I suppose. As long as the Crayfish was profitable. Until probably January, I suppose, and then taper off. But June, July they'd start.
CRAWFORD: What happened when January rolled around?
O’ROURKE: I think Ernie just probably had the rest of the year off.
CRAWFORD: What about you?
O’ROURKE: Well, at that time, that first season I went back to the Freezing Works in Invercargill. I done another season there. When that season finished, I moved back over here looking for a job. But I was a little bit late getting back, and I think all the fishing jobs had gone. So, I ended up at the Salmon Farm for about two or three months.
CRAWFORD: Big Glory Bay?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, Big Glory Bay at the Salmon Farm. That was in the earlier days up there too. And then I got offered this job on this other Crayfishing boat. One of the crew was leaving, I knew another crew on it, and he said "This job's coming up." So, I jumped aboard that. This guy, he was fishing off Long Point here.
CRAWFORD: Just west of Te Waewae Bay?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Right off Long Point, he fished along there a wee bit. I just sort of got on near the end of the Crayfishing. And then he put this big Shark net-roller on the back of the boat.
CRAWFORD: 1984, you were roughly twenty years old. You fished with Colin's Dad for a season, then a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
O’ROURKE: Back to the Freezer Works, and then back over here to the Salmon Farm.
CRAWFORD: And then some different Crayfishing experience across the Strait and elsewhere around Stewart Island, with some new gear and new experiences. You were putting out setnets for School Sharks? Who was that fellow?
O’ROURKE: This was [Roger Hicks??], the late [Roger Hicks??]. Roger's passed away just a wee while ago as well.
CRAWFORD: Where was he fishing out of?
O’ROURKE: Well, he fished out of Halfmoon Bay, but he was fishing up that area there. He had his Crayfish gear there, so we finished up with that. That's when he put the big Shark roller on the back of the [Brianna Kay??] - it'd be 47-50 foot steel boat. And then with the Shark roller on, we use to travel all around the place, searching for those School Sharks, Greyboys or Rig.
CRAWFORD: What kind of habitat do you look for, when you were fishing for Rig?
O’ROURKE: I think he just use to set them anywhere.
CRAWFORD: What kind of depth?
O’ROURKE: Well, he used to fish down around here, these Traps. I'm not quite sure what the depth was. It could have been 20 fathoms it could have been 50. I wasn't taking much notice.
CRAWFORD: Were these bottom sets?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, they had an anchor, a stretch of net, and anchor, and then there was two buoys on each end.
CRAWFORD: But the net was along the bottom? They weren't kited, they weren't hanging up in the water column?
O’ROURKE: Might have been two or three fathoms off the bottom, I can't remember. We had an anchor straight on the net? No, it might have been a fathom or so up. I can't remember, it was quite a long time ago.
CRAWFORD: No problem. What kind of mesh?
O’ROURKE: It was a nylon mesh about ... I don't know, whatever it was.
CRAWFORD: Like four-inch mesh?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, something like that. I can't remember.
CRAWFORD: But this gear was specifically targeting School Shark?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: The market for School Shark - was it for flesh, or was it for oil, or what?
O’ROURKE: For flesh. Fish and chips shops, I think would take a lot of it. And you'd also get Rig, which is another type of wee Shark. But you wouldn't get so many of them. He'd have these big load ups of these big School Sharks.
CRAWFORD: What kind of length for the gear? What would be a typical strap? In Canada we call them 'straps'. Like a kilometre of net?
O’ROURKE: Yeah ... don't quote me on that, I couldn't really give you that. But it was quite a distance, and I think we had three of them. Three lots of these nets, and they could have been 500 to 700 metres long. Or maybe a kilometre, I'm not too sure.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Pretty much everywhere on this chart was where you'd fish Shark? All over?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, Roger used to go everywhere.
CRAWFORD: Over to the Solanders?
O’ROURKE: Yep, Solanders. Around the Traps, around the *Cape. And he went up the shore here a wee way. Up to as far as Chalky I think - did we go up there one day?
CRAWFORD: Ever fish for School Shark out in the Strait?
O’ROURKE: Yep, experimented just everywhere, you know?
CRAWFORD: Ever fish School Shark around the Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: I don't know if we were ever close in around here. Don't remember ever being close to those Titi Islands. Not that I can remember.
CRAWFORD: That's fine. Was this a one-year thing, fishing for School Sharks? Or did you do it several years?
O’ROURKE: No, I only stayed with him for a year, and then I went on to something else. The season Sharking, and then they were going to go back into Crayfishing, and I went and done something else.
CRAWFORD: What was the season for Sharking?
O’ROURKE: It was when the Crayfish ended up, I suppose. Which was about January, I think we might have been. I remember it was the warmer time of year.
CRAWFORD: So, summer months?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: What did you do then?
O’ROURKE: I got a job on another boat, Blue Codding and Crayfishing again.
CRAWFORD: Blue Codding - as in linefishing?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. The guy I was with, he's still around, he lives over in Bluff at the moment ...
CRAWFORD: Who was that?
O’ROURKE: This was [David Waitiri??]. He had a boat called the [Rex??], and she would have been fifty foot too, I suppose. Big sort of [cavit??] stern on it.
CRAWFORD: He was fishing out of Halfmoon Bay here?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, he fished out of Halfmoon Bay, and he fished these islands here, and over towards Ruapuke.
CRAWFORD: Oh, really?
O’ROURKE: Yep. Ruapuke, Māori. [Davey??] had quite a bit of knowledge over in this area cause, his Father fished that area as well. When I jumped aboard, he was still using the old traditional handlines. And I think we had three 3-foot square Codpots.
CRAWFORD: You were fishing Cod with both pots and handlines?
O’ROURKE: Pots and handlines. Which they don't do nowadays not commercially, not that I know of any guys doing it. He had a set of hydraulic haulers on the boat, which you'd take your little 5 millimetre handline or whatever, and three or four Codpots - they weren't very big either. He'd set them, and then we'd have a drift, handlining for Cod.
CRAWFORD: While the pots were fishing?
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep. So that was quite traditional, 'cause not many guys do that anymore, not in those times. Because everyone was moving into Codpots, you know? But Davey still done a bit of handlining here.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That was Titi Islands over to Ruapuke. These were daytrips?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, he just dayfished Codding. And he dayfished Crayfishing.
CRAWFORD: Anything else up or down the coast?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. When we were Codding, we used to go up the shore here - probably as far as the Saddle, I suppose. And then down this was way - Chew Tobacco way. I don't know if we went off Port [Adventure] much.
CRAWFORD: But pretty much the northeast side of Stewart Island?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, pretty much around this area here. He had a really good knowledge of this area around here. And that’s where I started, through fishing with him, I caught quite a bit of knowledge.
CRAWFORD: How many years did you fish with Dave?
O’ROURKE: Three seasons, I think. Three seasons Crayfishing and Blue Codding. And then he decided to leave the Island, him and his Wife. They moved back to Bluff. I finished up the Crayfishing season with him, and then he moved back there. That's when I took my own boat. I leased a wee boat, it was called the [Halcyon??]. It's still around.
CRAWFORD: How big?
O’ROURKE: It's 29-foot
CRAWFORD: A two-man boat?
O’ROURKE: I had a girlfriend at the time who was with me, and she gave me a bit of a hand there for a while.
CRAWFORD: But you were a dayfisherman again?
O’ROURKE: Just dayfishing again. Same waters around here, and this was my first command - out on this little boat, the Halcyon. I just leased it off another fisherman, and I fished it for three or four months, not quite sure. I finished up there, and then I buggered off to Europe for a wee while.
CRAWFORD: As in, how long for that OE?
O’ROURKE: I was over there for about ten months, I think. And then when I come back, I got a job with Colin Hopkins who was Ernie's son.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember roughly, either how old you were or what year it was, when you started working with Colin?
O’ROURKE: That would have been about 1991, or something like that.
CRAWFORD: Which vessel?
O’ROURKE: He had a boat called the Aurora. That was a catamaran, which he brought back from Australia, it was built in Freemantle Australia. That was pretty different, 'cause nobody fished a catamaran around these waters. So, it was a pretty cool boat to work on, I thought. Used to get up and really do about 26 knots maybe, flat out. He fished around this area where I fished with his Father years ago.
CRAWFORD: The southwest coast of the Island?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, yeah. So, that was a pretty different boat to work on. It was a big steady platform.
CRAWFORD: And that was Crayfishing down that coast?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, he Crayfished down there.
CRAWFORD: Those trips would have been, ten days maybe two weeks?
O’ROURKE: No, he wouldn't spend too much time down there. It was quite a fast boat, so it didn’t take us long to get up and down.
CRAWFORD: Right. So, a few days, maybe a week at a time?
O’ROURKE: Longest, maybe a week. We were in live Crayfish by then too, wasn't it? Yep, we weren't tailing. So, it was live fish. Caught them and bring them up the shore, unload in Halfmoon Bay. I think he used to drop the odd load into Bluff there as well.
CRAWFORD: Was this the same type of thing - split Crayfishing and Codding?
O’ROURKE: No, he didn't go Codding. I just stayed with him for the Crayfish season. I done three seasons with Colin
CRAWFORD: But were you Codding - in between his Crayfishing seasons?
O’ROURKE: Well, after that first season, the wee [Karitane 29??] come up for sale. It was called the [Hilda J??], and I brought that. The first one I had was the Halcyon, but there was another [Karitane 29??]. This was the [Hilda J??]. I Codded that through the season when I wasn't with Colin, and I went back and done a season with Colin, a few seasons. After a while I just sort of had enough of Crayfishing, and decided I would just go by myself. Just go Codding all year round.
CRAWFORD: Roughly when would that have been? Late-90s, 2000s?
O’ROURKE: It was about 1991 when I started with Colin. I had three seasons with him.
CRAWFORD: So mid-90s?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, mid-90s. And after three seasons, I left that, and just carried on Codding full-time after that.
CRAWFORD: So, you started Codding full-time around '94-'95?
O’ROURKE: About that, yeah I suppose so.
CRAWFORD: On which boat?
O’ROURKE: The Hilda J.
CRAWFORD: Dayfishing?
O’ROURKE: Dayfishing, yep.
CRAWFORD: Pretty much the same region as before?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, just out the front of the Bay here, out towards Ruapuke.
CRAWFORD: Still over to Ruapuke, like when you were fishing with Dave?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. A good day, you get over here to Ruapuke. And up and down the shore here.
CRAWFORD: A little bit further.
O’ROURKE: Yeah, I'd go right up round the Bishops. One day I went right round to Mason's and stayed in the gutter here. And down the shore over here a wee bit.
CRAWFORD: Chew Tobacco?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, Chew Tobacco. And come around the *Little Reef maybe. I didn't have much accommodation on it, so I didn't stay away much. I just use to take a [dolab??] out full of ice.
CRAWFORD: Were you completely into Codpots then? Or were you still linefishing?
O’ROURKE: No, there was no lining then. It was Codpots. So, I just worked three Codpots.
CRAWFORD: Two-man crew?
O’ROURKE: No, just by myself.
CRAWFORD: Ok. And that went from mid-90s until when?
O’ROURKE: Today.
CRAWFORD: Right. But at least when you started the tour charter operation - that was another natural break point?
O’ROURKE: Yep, ok.
CRAWFORD: Was there anything else, in terms of location or activity, that would have changed? Or was that pretty much from the mid-90s until now? Did you just superimpose the charter operation on your regular Codding?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. When I brought the larger boat, the one that I’ve got now, the Tequila - after the first year I had it, I thought "Well, I'll give this chartering a go as well." So, I had to get it surveyed to carry passengers.
CRAWFORD: What year did you buy the Tequila?
O’ROURKE: This would be about the 5th Christmastime I've had it. Coming up five years.
CRAWFORD: Did you continue Codding year-round?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: And Tequila was going to be the platform for both Codpotting and chartering? When did you start chartering in a significant way?
O’ROURKE: Not the first year I had it. Probably the second year.
CRAWFORD: 2011?
O’ROURKE: About that probably, yeah.
CRAWFORD: When you started chartering, what percentage of your time were you chartering versus Codding?
O’ROURKE: Well, about November - late November coming December you're starting to get a lot more tourists around. So, it would go from there to January, February, March. After Easter time, it would sort of taper off.
CRAWFORD: During the tourist season, would it be 50-50 - charters versus Codpotting?
O’ROURKE: Just depending.
CRAWFORD: In general?
O’ROURKE: The first year, I sort of done all right with it. Then the second year, I didn't do very well. I don't know whether people weren't around, or what happened. So, then I just went back and targeted Blue Cod more. Codding with my Codpots.
CRAWFORD: Maybe 70% Codding, 30% charter? Something like that?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: And on a year when you're doing a lot of chartering, would that reach 60%, 70% charters?
O’ROURKE: It was pretty much ... like last year, when we had a lot of people come to Halfmoon Bay, it was pretty much 100% charter work.
CRAWFORD: During the height of the tourist season?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. I wasn't doing any Codding. It was pretty much just chartering tourists.
CRAWFORD: But the whole point is, if you didn't have charters you had Codpots. And you were out on the Tequila pretty much all the time, one way or another?
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep.
CRAWFORD: In terms of the chartering, is it a variety of different things you might be doing - depending on the specific charter? Or is there a standard thing that you do on your charters?
O’ROURKE: Well, what I advertise myself as doing is - you can come aboard a commercial boat, and see a commercial operation. I'll take a couple of Codpots out, we'll set two Codpots so they can see me [bake??] them up.
CRAWFORD: Whereabouts?
O’ROURKE: Just out round the front here. Out round the Islands. It’s about an hour's steam for us to get out to the area, on a good day. On the way, somewhere I'll chuck these two Codpots over. Then go and do some handlining, do a bit of the traditional handlining.
CRAWFORD: When you do handlining, do you have preferred locations that you work?
O’ROURKE: Well, yeah - round these Islands. Just depending what the tide's doing, and the weather.
CRAWFORD: You might be off one island one day, go off another island the next day?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. You catch a Cod anywhere around these areas.
CRAWFORD: What I'm trying to get to is ... it’s not the kind of thing where you go to this island and only this island. You're all over the place among the Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, within an hour’s steam. I wouldn't steam way down to Chew Tobacco, when I can just steam out and play around here.
CRAWFORD: Right. You're sampling different regions.
O’ROURKE: Yep. Pick up the Codpots on the way home, and they can see what comes up in the Codpots, and how it goes in the hauler.
CRAWFORD: Are the pots a back-up, in case handlining doesn't bring in fish? Or do you pretty much always get Cod when you're handlining?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, pretty much we always get a feed on the handlines.
CRAWFORD: But then they get to see the Codpots in action as well?
O’ROURKE: They get to see the Codpot come up. Like last year, I wasn't much into the fishery at that time. And what was coming up in the Codpots was not a whole lot to make a landing. We'd already caught a feed on the handlines and carry on. Just so they can see that side of the commercial operation, and those fish would just swim away.
CRAWFORD: Does that bring us up to today? You still Codpot during the tourist off-season, and you run a mixed Codpotting and chartering operation during the tourist season - depending on the level of tourist interest?
O’ROURKE: Exactly.
2. EXPOSURE TO MĀORI/LOCAL/SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS
CRAWFORD: In a very general sense, to what extent would you say that Māori culture and knowledge would have influenced your understanding of marine ecosystems? Are you familiar with their stories and their knowledge?
O’ROURKE: Well, like I said, I had an old Māori Skipper.
CRAWFORD: And he would have told stories?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. He influenced me quite a bit, in the way I fish. He made quite a big impression on the way to fish. He wasn't a big-time fisherman, but he was just a very nice guy. And I liked the way he fished.
CRAWFORD: Why did you like it?
O’ROURKE: Well, he wasn't out there to get the last fish. He was just out there to make a lifestyle.
CRAWFORD: It was more a way of living?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, and I liked that.
CRAWFORD: When you were out there with him, did he spot things that perhaps you wouldn't have seen, and kind of explain them to you? Maybe tell you a story that his old-timers would have told him?
O’ROURKE: Possibly, yeah. But I'm just trying to think of anything off the top of my head at the moment.
CRAWFORD: Ok. How would you put the Māori influence on O'Rourke's understanding of the marine world? Would that be a Very Low, Low, Medium, High or Very High?
O’ROURKE: Oh, it was quite High, I suppose.
CRAWFORD: Ok, let's put it at High. You had direct interaction with Dave for a sustained period of time. You learned your craft from him.
O’ROURKE: From this guy. Yeah, yeah. I think we have a pretty good respect between the Māori and the Pakeha down here. I don't think we have any racial problems. I think there is a lot more racial problems up north. But down in the Bay here, everybody gets on with everybody pretty good. I never hear any racial stuff going on down round here. We all get along pretty good. As in Māori and Pakeha living together I think, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's talk about Science now. It's obvious you've made reference to some things from Science previously in our discussion. So, where would you evaluate that on the scale?
O’ROURKE: Oh, Medium.
3. WHITE POINTER DISTRIBUTION AND ABUNDANCE
CRAWFORD: What was your fist memory of either hearing about or seeing a White Pointer?
O’ROURKE: The first time I seen one was on the first boat that I brought.
CRAWFORD: Time out for just a second ... had you heard about them before you saw them?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, well I suppose everybody's heard stories.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s just focus just a little bit on those stories. Would you have heard those stories back in Invercargill?
O’ROURKE: No.
CRAWFORD: Would you have heard them while you were doing holidays in Paterson Inlet?
O’ROURKE: No.
CRAWFORD: Would you have heard them when you were twenty-something and you were working - at the wharf or on boats?
O’ROURKE: No. Actually, I did hear a story about how they had caught a big Shark, I think it might have been just as I was a kid. I didn't see it, but I think my Sister might have gotten a tooth out of it, maybe.
CRAWFORD: That would have been a Shark, a White Pointer caught near the Island?
O’ROURKE: I think it was a White Shark.
CRAWFORD: So, you knew that they existed, and that they were around?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, yeah. But we'd never seen one. I think there had been one pulled up on the beach, something like that - years and years ago. Whether the local fishermen probably caught it in their nets or something.
CRAWFORD: You wouldn't have known the details, but you knew that they were out there, and they got caught from time to time?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Was there anything else, in terms of impressions back in the day when you were a kid? This is why I wanted to focus on what you had heard prior to the first time you saw one. Was it a menace? Was it something that had been removed as a threat? Was it something that had been harvested for teeth or for oil?
O’ROURKE: Not that I heard. And there was never a threat on us guys, like swimming. And we use to be in the water all the time.
CRAWFORD: When you were swimming in Halfmoon Bay or Paterson Inlet?
O’ROURKE: We were just out at the Bathing Beach, over here. Bathing Beach was where we use to play around as kids, swim off there, and play around in dinghies, and stuff. And then of course our Fellow would take us up the Inlet in his little pleasure launch, and I'd be snorkelling all around these little bays and bits and pieces. In Paterson Inlet, right up to those big mud flats up there. 'Cause you'd get a Flounder or a Scallop.
CRAWFORD: Mostly on the north side of Paterson Inlet? Or did you ever come here to the other side?
O’ROURKE: Pretty much, yeah on the north side probably. But he used to go into the little nooks and crannies around there too. I don't know if the water was warmer in those days or what, but we never had wet suits just to snorkel. You'd get out and be pretty cold but ...
CRAWFORD: You mentioned Bathing Beach ... you were there during recreational times, right at the cusp - as I hear it from some of the Islanders, that there were swimming lessons at Bathing Beach during the school year. But you came from Invercargill. It was a holiday thing for you. When you were swimming at Bathing Beach it was purely recreational?
O'ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Were there ever any people spotting? People that were high up, looking for Sharks?
O’ROURKE: No.
CRAWFORD: There have been some references to that, during school classes, and sometimes during recreational swimming. But not as far as you remember?
O’ROURKE: Not as I can remember, as a kid. There was never any talk or any threat of big Sharks. Not that I can remember.
CRAWFORD: And nothing you heard about someone blowing the whistle, and all the kids coming out of the water?
O'ROURKE: No.
CRAWFORD: And nothing like that in Paterson Inlet either?
O’ROURKE: No. There was no sign of a Shark up there. I mean, there could have been - but we never heard of it. And there was no sort of threat. That was way back.
CRAWFORD: Ok. You crewed on a boat with Dave - a guy from Ruapuke. So, you were comfortable there, you knew that area. When the White Pointers started appearing around Titi Islands and in front of the Bays, did you also notice them starting to appear around Ruapuke? Or increasing frequency there?
O’ROURKE: Not that I can remember, no.
CRAWFORD: Mostly around the Titi Islands and in front of the Bays?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, pretty much around these areas here. And I used to fish all down the southeast quite a bit too.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember hearing any stories from Dave, or anybody else, about White Pointers at Ruapuke?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, he had seen some big Sharks there. That was just in passing. I can't remember. He had a lifetime of fishing around here, so you'd have to ask him about that. He had seen big Sharks over there, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Where did you say Dave is now?
O’ROURKE: He's in Bluff. Yeah, you could ask Davey. He's turned 70 the other year. And I suppose he's been fishing there since he was a boy. And so was his Father.
CRAWFORD: Codding?
O’ROURKE: Codding old-school, and Crayfishing. So, he's got quite a good knowledge of that area there.
CRAWFORD: The Waitiri's and the Topi's?
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep.
CRAWFORD: Ok. When the White Pointers did show up round the Titi Islands, did they start showing up November-December kind of thing?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: And then they're around for how long? Six months maybe?
O’ROURKE: Until it’s cooled off a wee bit, I suppose.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you ever see White Pointers that were distinctive? When you'd say "That's the same Shark I saw maybe a week ago." Anything like that, with nicks or markings or anything?
O’ROURKE: No, no.
CRAWFORD: Some people have said that there were certain Sharks ...
O’ROURKE: They had a nickname for one fish out there - was called [Anonymous].
CRAWFORD: When was that? Before cage diving?
O’ROURKE: Yes, it would have been. One of the other charter boats out there, Richard on the Laloma.
CRAWFORD: Squizzy?
O’ROURKE: Yep. There was a young lady working in the pub, and she had a lot of piercings and stuff, you see? So, they reckon this Shark had a lot of fish hooks hanging out its mouth. [chuckles] They named this Shark [Anonymous], after like [Anonymous] in the pub that had a whole lot of piercings. Whether that was just a story, I don't know. I never seen it myself. [both chuckle]
CRAWFORD: But you heard about it. And the point really behind that is, when you see an individual White Pointer with some type of distinctive marking ...
O’ROURKE: You get to know them, yeah.
CRAWFORD: When you see an individual over and over again, it brings up the idea that these are not necessarily just once-through animals. They can be around in a location for a while.
O’ROURKE: A resident fish.
CRAWFORD: That's one of the reasons why your interview is important, because you've got observations and experience prior to any cage dive operations - which means it’s impossible that cage dive operations could have accounted for those observations before. The point I really want to get at here is, why do you think those White Pointers were in and around the Titi islands - before cage diving?
O’ROURKE: I don't know. Maybe it’s a water temperature thing. ‘Cause I noticed, before they arrived, all of a sudden there was big schools of Mackerel coming through these Straits here.
CRAWFORD: Are we talking about the season before, or the year before?
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep. Year before that. And there was big schools of these Mackerel coming thought the Straits. And they disappeared. I'd never seen them before, and I'd say "What the hell was that?" The water would be churning up. You steam out towards them ... of course they'd always sound, but you'd look in to the water, and there'd be like little Krill and that. We found out that year they were Mackerel. So, you get these big bait balls of these Mackerel coming through the Straits. And then after them ... not straight after the next day, within the next year or couple of years, I used to see a lot of these Mako Sharks. I think they were Mako Sharks, pretty sure they were Mako Sharks. They wouldn't hang around the boat, but when you're hauling up the pot, and you'd be looking to see when the pot's going to hit the surface, this Mako would be chasing it up. He'd be chasing up. And then after they had their round ...
CRAWFORD: Time out just for a second. With the Makos - were you also handlining during that outing?
O’ROURKE: No, I was only Codpotting.
CRAWFORD: The reason I was bringing up that question, was that some people have talked about Makos following fish up on lines.
O'ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: But you didn't see that, because you weren't line fishing at the time?
O’ROURKE: No, but I'd never seen these guys following the pots up. Not to say that they weren't around.
CRAWFORD: And then did the Makos disappear?
O’ROURKE: They seemed to disappear. I don't know if I'd seen them around. I hadn't seen one follow a pot up for many years after that. And then these big White Pointers appeared. So, my reckoning is that it was water temperature or something.
CRAWFORD: Did you notice a temperature change over those years?
O’ROURKE: Well, not really. Not if I put my hand in the water.
CRAWFORD: Or did you hear anything in the news? Or scientific studies, or anything like that?
O’ROURKE: No, no. Just observation, maybe. Maybe there's a temperature change or something, and this is why these Mackerel were coming through the Straits. Following a feed, or the water temperature is right for them. Then the Makos, and then these big Whites.
CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen any of these White Pointers try to take a Seal? Especially out in front of the Bays or over in the Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: No, I've never seen that.
CRAWFORD: Have you ever seen Seal carcasses out there?
O’ROURKE: No. Obviously they do go for them, right? But I've never seen a Seal bitten in half or anything.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Prior to you seeing that first White Pointer at Dead Man's Bay, had you heard about them hanging around there - that cleaning station? Or was the first time, when you saw it yourself?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: After that, at any point in time, did you hear stories about White Pointers there? Stories from other people that were using Dead Man's as a cleaning station?
O’ROURKE: No. But there possibly could have been. I didn't hear of anything going on.
CRAWFORD: Originally, I had asked if you had ever seen any White Pointers in the Bays, Halfmoon or Horseshoe. You said 'no', but you said 'yes' at Dead Man's.
O’ROURKE: Deadman's, yeah. I don't think I've seen any right in close in the Bay here. But there have been Sharks seen in the Bay here, which is just over by another cleaning station which was Butterfield's Beach. We used to clean our fish in there as well.
CRAWFORD: You didn't see any White Pointers at Butterfield's, but you heard of them there?
O’ROURKE: No, but I have heard that they've seen them there.
CRAWFORD: Butterfield's is quite a bit further in to Halfmoon Bay. And at one time it was a cleaning station as well. Was there a time when the nature of the cleaning stations changed? That, for whatever reason, people used a cleaning station, and then it fell out of favour? I think Dead Man's was always used. Butterfield's sometimes, but not always?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Sort of depending what the weather was doing maybe, or which direction you're coming from fishing, you know? If you're coming from this angle here, from around Acker's Point, you'd probably go into Harrold's Bay, so you can clean your fish in there. But if you're coming in from that direction, you'd stop at Dead Man's. But you're coming straight in, some days maybe you'd stop in at Bragg's Bay there. There are a variety of places you could stop and clean fish.
CRAWFORD: Did some or much or all of the community have the feeling that if White Pointers come into the Bay, that they are treated differently than White Pointers that stay outside? Basically, the idea that if a White Pointer comes inside the Bay, it is perceived as a risk - and it is dealt with, one way or another? What do you remember about that?
O’ROURKE: I can't remember it ever being a big deal. I mean, at the moment, nobody's been bitten have they? That I know of.
CRAWFORD: Not around here.
O’ROURKE: No. And nobody wants to be first.
CRAWFORD: But I said 'perceived to be a risk' right? I hear that back in the old days, there were people that fished White Pointers here with barrels and baited hooks. And back not that long ago there were Shark nets that were specifically rigged, in order to remove any White Pointers that came into the Bay. You're a little bit younger than me - so, it would have been the mid-70s, and you as a young man. I was trying to get your impression of whether it was the case that if a Shark came in, then actions were taken? Do you remember?
O’ROURKE: I can't remember any of that, no.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember anything about Joe Cave's Shark nets going out?
O’ROURKE: Yes. You mean the nets out of the Bay here?
CRAWFORD: Yeah. I've heard his Shark nets were sometimes fished out at Horseshoe, sometimes Halfmoon. But specifically in response to a White Pointer being seen.
O’ROURKE: Was there something set up to remove that Shark out of the bay because he was looked at as a risk?
CRAWFORD: Yes - because that particular animal had crossed the line.
O’ROURKE: Yeah. I don't want to incriminate anybody here ...
CRAWFORD: There's no incrimination here about the Shark nets at all. This was all pre-protection.
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Apparently, they'd seen these Sharks from the Southern Air, from the airplane. And at Bragg's Bay, where we used to clean our fish.
CRAWFORD: Next to Bathing Beach?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, pretty close. There'd been a couple of these big animals seen around there, by the pilots, I think. So, one of the local fishermen set some nets along that beach, and caught two of these big Sharks. And when they opened them up, they were full of Cod skeletons, apparently. But this is before those Sharks were protected. You wouldn't do that now. That was the first and only time I'd sort of known or was like ...
CRAWFORD: That there was a response like that?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: That's what I was trying to get to. Had you heard anything prior to that?
O’ROURKE: Not that I know of. Not that I can remember.
CRAWFORD: Were you actually on the wharf, when the nets came in?
O’ROURKE: No, I wasn't in the Bay at the time. I could have been anywhere, I can't remember. I wasn't here, but I think my youngest Sister was working over here at the time. I remember her telling me they cut them open, and they were full up of Cod skeletons.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Even the telling of that story, from second- or even third-hand ... The fact that you heard the story is - as far as I can tell -completely consistent; including the fact that they were observed first out on the Bay by a pilot. Sometimes, I've also heard that it was actually a pilot that radioed down and said "Joe, you've got Sharks in your nets." And the number of people that have mentioned the Cod frames. It was almost as if, prior to that time, people hadn't really made the connection ... not just that the White Pointers were eating Blue Cod, but that the only way they could get a Cod frame in their gut like that is if they were either feeding at a cleaning station, or following a boat as fish were being cleaned and frames were being dumped, right? And it was almost as if a light bulb went on, and people said "Hmm. Maybe we need to start thinking about the relationship between what we do with our fishery, and these White Pointers." It indicated for the first time, that this apex predator is also a scavenger.
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep.
CRAWFORD: It doesn't mean that they are anything less. They're still very much, apex predators. There is a very strong impression of a correlation between an increase in Seal abundance around the Titi Islands and an increase in White Pointer abundance. And there are cases where White Pointers have been opened up, and they have Seal pieces or Seal pups in their guts.
O’ROURKE: So, how do these Sharks know ... when they've been tagged from miles away from here ... how do they suddenly know that the Seal population has gotten bigger up here? Through the Shark telegraph or something? How does that work? I don't know. Or did one Shark, one scout, come down through here, say "Johnny, you better go down and check out the Seal population down there, and see how it’s getting on." And he goes back and reports to all the other Sharks "Ah, yeah. It’s looking real healthy. Let’s all head down there." I'm being a bit sarcastic, but I'm just trying to say ...
CRAWFORD: I get it. Sometimes people think that Scientists are way different from regular people, Local people. What you're doing right there is, you're asking exactly the same kinds of questions as a Scientist. You're even saying it kind of same way a Scientist would. Because we don't know - none of us. On the one hand you're effortlessly bringing in information that came from the Science knowledge system about the Shark tagging. But then you also effortlessly bring in the idea that maybe these Sharks are much more social than we thought as well. And it could very well be that they communicate in ways that we never thought possible. Who knows? And in terms of the social stuff ... when you've seen White Pointers, especially out in the Titi Islands or out in front of the Bays here, were they almost always single individuals? Or did you see groups of White Pointers?
O’ROURKE: I don't think I've ever seen two together, no.
CRAWFORD: Not even at a cleaning station?
O’ROURKE: No. But that's not to say that one that was swimming around might dive under, and another one comes swimming around. And I might think it’s the same fish, but it’s not.
CRAWFORD: Fair enough. Let's finish off with the Shark removal issue. Pre-protection, Joe's nets were out there. Had you known that there were Shark nets out there, but you hadn't seen anything that came from them before that incident with the two White Pointers being caught in them?
O’ROURKE: From that period of the Sharks being here, that's the first time I can remember something like that. But I think there must have been Sharks caught previous years; long time before my fishing experience here. Probably in baitnets and bits and pieces like that.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember when Joe's nets were out there? The nets that caught those two White Pointers? You would have heard the stories.
O’ROURKE: I heard the stories, but I don't think I was in the Bay at the time. I could have been away.
CRAWFORD: Was it after that sudden increase in White Pointers out round the Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: But you don't have a real sense of when that was?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Let’s shift over to Paterson Inlet. Please rewind the clock on this one too, because you spent a lot of time in there as a kid back in the day.
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Just over those summer months, you know? Not throughout the year.
CRAWFORD: Right. But some people have been saying during those summer months, that's when most of the White Pointers seem to be around Stewart Island, generally. There is evidence that during the winter, some White Pointers are still around here, but that there's a steady increase in numbers during the summer months. But I want to go back to your days as a kid in Paterson Inlet. You said you were snorkelling around, and oystering, and exploring. Was there ever any indication that there were White Pointers in Paterson Inlet back then?
O’ROURKE: No. Not that I can remember as a kid.
CRAWFORD: I'm guessing that when you were swimming or boating around, if there was a White Pointer that had been seen around, you or your Dad or anybody would have known, right?
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep.
CRAWFORD: And there was no word?
O’ROURKE: No, I can't remember anything of that.
CRAWFORD: Moving forward in time, have you ever heard of reports of White Pointers in Paterson Inlet since?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: When was the first time?
O’ROURKE: Since they've been appearing ...
CRAWFORD: You mean, appearing out around the Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORDL So, post-2005?
O'ROURKE: There've been sightings of them up round the Inlet, in certain areas.
CRAWFORD: Have you seen any there?
O’ROURKE: I have personally not seen any, but I have heard that people have seen them up round the Inlet.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember where?
O’ROURKE: I'm not too sure. I can't even remember who it was, but there have been sightings of them up there. I thought "Well, I mean I have my own kids now. And I'd be a little bit suspicious about them swimming around up there, in those little areas which I used to swim. After the sightings." I said before "Nobody's been bitten." But who wants to have the first kid chomped in half by a Shark?
CRAWFORD: Some of the interviews I did up at the Otago Peninsula showed that White Pointers were definitely moving around in Otago Harbour itself. And that is a prime example of how White Pointers, some very big ones, are known to be in another fairly enclosed, fairly shallow body of water. And they were typically not seen, while they were there in the Harbour.
O’ROURKE: Well, hey. In those early days when I was a kid around there, who knows? He could have been just over there. But I never heard or seen of any Sharks back then, when I was a kid. But like you say, maybe they were never seen.
CRAWFORD: Another thing that some people say is that there were just as many, if not more, people swimming and boating around in Otago Harbour. And that If these White Pointers were actually intending to prey on Humans, they were in a target-rich environment. Everybody would have known, if anybody had even been harassed by them. But they didn't. Same kind of thing could have been true here for Paterson Inlet?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Ok, let's leave it at that. Let's move into that Science stuff now. What do you know about Science research on White Pointers around Stewart Island generally, and around this northeast side of the Island specifically?
O’ROURKE: I know that the DOC [Department of Conservation] boat was going out front here in these Islands, and tagging them.
CRAWFORD: The Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: When did that happen?
O’ROURKE: Ah, that's been ... don't know if they were doing it last year or the year before.
CRAWFORD: How far back do you reckon?
O’ROURKE: I really couldn't tell you. One year they were quite active, going out there and tagging them.
CRAWFORD: In terms of tagging, do you know anything about the nature of the tags? Or whether they were using different kinds of tags?
O’ROURKE: No, I'd have no idea. But they must have been GPS-trackable, ‘cause I do know they were tracked heading up into the Pacific or something, weren't they? You probably know more about that than me.
CRAWFORD: Maybe I do, but you've got a feel for what these interviews are about. Knowledge moves through different pathways, right? And some of it reached you, and you know some of this.
O’ROURKE: I'm sure I could find out more that'd be available, to find out more if I wanted to go that way. I just never did. But it is quite interesting that here ... where do they go, those Sharks?
CRAWFORD: I'm more interested in what a guy like you - who has spent much of his life here on and around the water, and who has had numerous encounters - what that person would have received indirectly from the Science knowledge system. So, for instance, you knew about the tagging project generally. You knew it had some kind of GPS kind of associations with it. And this is one of the questions that I would have asked you anyways: What would people have previously thought about whether these White Pointers were maybe a local population, or if it came as a surprise to find out how far they were travelling?
O’ROURKE: It was surprising, of course, to find out that they travelled way up into the Pacific and all that.
CRAWFORD: But they still come back here?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, they come back here for some reason. To breed, is it? Or what? Or is it "The Seal population is great down there, boys. Let's all come back down, and chow down on Seals"?
CRAWFORD: Ok. Last thing for this part of the interview. You've described a couple of Level 4 interactions, when White Pointers have clamped on the rudder, or the bow of a fishing boat. But are you aware of any other kind of Level 4 Intense encounters in this region - White Pointers with boats, or White Pointers directly with Humans? Have you heard of any more of those encounters?
O’ROURKE: Something the other year, to do with a dinghy or something was it?
CRAWFORD: Whereabouts? Close by?
O’ROURKE: Not too sure, was out the middle up the front. Close by. Did some Shark have a go at somebody's propeller or something like that? Maybe it was pub talk, you know?
CRAWFORD: Could be. And there's a lot of that too.
O'ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: But nothing's jumping out at you about this? Being a Level 4 "Oh, everybody knows about that"?
O’ROURKE: Not that I've heard of. But one Shark got caught aggressive at somebody's propeller, a wee while ago. There's a bit of pub talk going on there, maybe - and I'm not too sure the whole story. But I did hear a rumour, something like that. But I've never heard of any Shark jumping up onto a small boat.
CRAWFORD: Or harassing a Pāua diver?
O’ROURKE: Not that I know of. Nothing aggressive like that. But I've heard the story of them coming and smashing a Mollymawk.
CRAWFORD: But that's a different kind of Level 4, right? That would have been in the same predation category as a Shark-Seal interaction, for instance.
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Ok. In the greater Stewart Island-Foveaux Strait region, based on everything you know, what are the hotspot areas for White Pointers? If there are any hotspots, where would they be?
O’ROURKE: Well, there'd be ... was it the notion of them being around Ringaringa? Didn't that come from the DOC, or whoever was studying them? Along there, wasn't there a big concentration? Not that I've ever seen a Shark around there, but apparently a lot of them were hanging around there - Ringaringa way.
CRAWFORD: Sure. You're allowed to bring that kind of knowledge in. What other areas would be hotspots?
O’ROURKE: Otherwise around here, just where we were fishing out round here.
CRAWFORD: The Titi Islands?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Regularly seeing them round here.
CRAWFORD: Some people have said that Edwards Island is a specific hotspot. Is that your experience too? Or have you seen those White Pointers throughout the Titi Islands pretty much?
O’ROURKE: I've seen them on the [Hilda J??] all around this area here.
CRAWFORD: you don't remember thinking "Oh, it’s Edwards, and then no place else"?
O’ROURKE: No, pretty much in this area around here. Mainly ‘cause that's where I'm fishing, as well.
CRAWFORD: Right. But you're fishing in the broader region, not just around Edwards. You might fish around Edwards, but you're fishing around the other Titi Islands too, right?
O’ROURKE: My concentrated area is around this here. So that's maybe why I'm seeing more of them there, more than the others.
CRAWFORD: Anything on the other side of the Foveaux Strait?
O’ROURKE: I never dayfished up around that area.
CRAWFORD: Did you ever hear of any places over there that were ‘sharky’?
O’ROURKE: No. I know there's been stories from divers being round Ruapuke. And I've seen one over there, I think. I don't know when that was.
CRAWFORD: You had mentioned that before, so that's all part of the interview. But in terms of the other parts of Stewart Island? Southwest not so much? Western side? Eastern side?
O’ROURKE: No. But I haven't fished down this area since I was Crayfishing and that.
CRAWFORD: So, some of that would have been based on your knowledge from others?
O’ROURKE: And they weren't around in that time anyways. They just appeared that one year, which I was fishing out of the Bay here. That's the first time I seen them, and that's when other people started to see them, I suppose. Not to say they hadn’t been there twenty years before I had been there, you know?
4. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - DIRECT EXPERIENCES
CRAWFORD: Have you seen White Pointers alive in the wild around Stewart Island?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: When was the first one?
O’ROURKE: That was the [Hilda J??] days ...
CRAWFORD: Roughly, when was this?
O’ROURKE: I bought the [Hilda J??] when I was still Crayfishing with Colin. So, about ‘92 or ‘93.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Early-90s.
O’ROURKE: Yeah, early-90s. But I had that boat for about eighteen years. And the first time I seen one of those fish, would have been several years before I sold it.
CRAWFORD: The exact year doesn't matter. Early-90s?
O’ROURKE: When I first seen a Shark, no. It would have been way later than that. I had the boat quite a while ... so maybe 2000. Don't quote me, I just can't quite be specific.
CRAWFORD: Anthony, it doesn't matter - the exact year.
O’ROURKE: Yeah. It might have been 2005, I just can't quite remember. But other guys would, probably. ‘Cause one year they just appeared. For me. ‘Cause I'd never seen them before.
CRAWFORD: You hadn't seen them before, but you'd obviously spent a lot of time on the water.
O'ROURKE: Yep, yep.
CRAWFORD: Mostly the northeast side of the Island, in through the Titi Islands over to Ruapuke. You spent quite a bit of time out there.
O’ROURKE: And never seen one of these Sharks out there. There'd obviously been Sharks here in previous years. And there's photos of big Sharks around. But I had never seen ...
CRAWFORD: This is why I want you to work just a little bit harder on this. You're not the only one that's said "Nothing, nothing. Then all of a sudden ..."
O’ROURKE: They just appeared one year.
CRAWFORD: Maybe not plenty, but you went from nothing to a few or several?
O'ROURKE: Oh yeah, there was a few of them getting around.
CRAWFORD: When do you think that transition was? Within plus or minus a couple of years?
O’ROURKE: Right, so ... I'd say 2005.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Around 2005. The first time you see a White Pointer in the wild. Where was it?
O’ROURKE: I think it was up round the North Islands here somewhere.
CRAWFORD: In the Titi Islands?
O'ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: What time of year was it?
O’ROURKE: Probably the warmer time of the year.
CRAWFORD: Summer months?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, 'cause that's when they come around, isn't it?
CRAWFORD: Well, you know that now.
O’ROURKE: I'd say it would have been in the warmer time of the year. Nor'west, Edwards way - if I can remember that day. Because I remember steaming in. After I'd seen this guy, I remember steaming in and thinking "Don't fall over. Don't fall over."
CRAWFORD: Were you under way, when you saw it?
O’ROURKE: No, I think I was stationary at the time.
CRAWFORD: Were you handlining?
O’ROURKE: No, I would have been Codpotting. But the Codpots might have been away. Maybe I was just drifting. I can't remember at the time if I was cleaning a fish or whatever happened. But I remember just for some reason looking over the side ... 'cause the wee [Karitane 29??], you're pretty low to the water. You're almost standing on the water, with the wee decks on them. Probably looking over the side, and thinking "Woah." Seeing this monster for the first time. And he'd circle round the boat.
CRAWFORD: [Discussion about project classification levels for human encounters with White Pointers: Level 1-Observation, Level 2-Swim-By, Level 3-Interest, Level 4-Intense] This very first interaction you had with a White Pointer - what Level do you reckon it was?
O’ROURKE: Level 3. Interest. So, he come up, and he was circling round. He was seeing what was going on.
CRAWFORD: Did you see him come up?
O’ROURKE: I didn't see him come up, ‘cause I wasn't looking for him coming up. I didn't know he was there. I'm just standing round the deck.
CRAWFORD: Right. You weren't looking down at your pots to see him.
O’ROURKE: No. I just seen him at the surface. But what you pick up after a while, you always know that they're around, ‘cause you get a lot of Mollymawks sitting round the boat, looking for a feed - and all of a sudden they'll up and bugger off over there. That's how you know there's a White Pointer getting round. 'Cause they don't want to be honked by them.
CRAWFORD: Several people have made the same observation. Roughly how long in time, between when you see the Mollymawks bugger off and when you see the White Pointer?
O’ROURKE: Oh, pretty much the same time.
CRAWFORD: Like ten seconds later?
O’ROURKE: Nah, pretty much the same time. The birds will bugger off, and he'll be just steaming by. If he's a bit of a distance off, they're not too worried about him. But if he's steaming towards them, they get out of his way. It looks like that's what happened to John last week. Honk.
CRAWFORD: Is that what happened your first time? There were Mollymawks around?
O’ROURKE: No, I can't remember on that day. Because even if they did fly off, I probably wouldn't have realized it was them. It was just the fact that I looked over the side, and there he was. Because I'd never seen them before, I wouldn't have known why those Mollys flew off. And if I'd never looked over the side and seen him, I probably wouldn't have known he was there.
CRAWFORD: Was that White Pointer submerged? Or was its dorsal fin cutting the surface, or anything else like that?
O’ROURKE: He was just under the water. Sometimes the fin would be broken out.
CRAWFORD: But it was all casual?
O’ROURKE: Yep, very casual. There was no gnawing or gashing going on. He just circled round the boat, and I thought "Yeah." ‘Cause I'd never seen one before, and it makes the hair on the back on your neck stand up. It wasn't the length of him that got me, it was how girthy he was. How big he was through the middle - that's what really struck me.
CRAWFORD: Alright that's your first. It was about the mid-2000s. After that first observation, if you had to guess, how many White Pointers have you seen in the wild?
O’ROURKE: Well, around these areas for a time, you'd just about see one ever other day.
CRAWFORD: Really?
O’ROURKE: Yep. There was a period there, especially around the [Hilda J], they seemed to be around it all the time. Yeah, quite regularly.
CRAWFORD: These would have been Level 3s, Interest?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, pretty much.
CRAWFORD: Would you ever see a White Pointer, and it wasn't circling or anything? You just see a fin or something?
O’ROURKE: Sometimes you'd see it in the distance, yep.
CRAWFORD: Did you ever have any Level 2 Drive-Bys? Or if you saw a White Pointer, was it typically circling?
O’ROURKE: Well, he would circle, or sometimes you'd just see one in the distance, or maybe a drive-by. Sort of a mixture I suppose, yeah. I suppose if I was sitting cleaning a fish as well, 'cause you'd be filleting the fish at the same time, there'd be a deck hose and blood going in the water. So obviously, they'd smell that wouldn't they? And also, I wonder if birds fighting on top of the water ... You get the Mollymawks all squawking and squabbling, when you're filleting a fish and chucking the skeleton over. You might have twenty or thirty Mollymawks all sitting round, all "Ra, Ra, Ra, Ra." I wonder if they pick up on something like that? Or if they don't smell it, they can feel a vibration or hear something from the Mollymawks fighting. "Oh, what are they squabbling about?" Maybe that's an interest why they come zooming around.
CRAWFORD: It's quite possible. I think you might have been the first to have raised that up in the interviews. Especially when you're drifting - less so at a cleaning station, but even then, maybe. It could be a sequence of cues, and the birds could actually be the first cue that the White Pointers are responding to. And then as they get closer, they pick up the scent.
O'ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Let's focus on the split ... and I know that this is a difficult question, but roughly what would the percentage of times that you saw a White Pointer be - when you were cleaning versus when you were just drifting or under way without any cleaning? Was it mostly when you were cleaning?
O’ROURKE: No, not really. Probably a split. Because sometimes you would be cleaning, and they would come up for a bit of a [Polly Perkins??] as well. He'd be coming up and circling round.
CRAWFORD: Would it be the case, if you were cleaning that it would perhaps sustain their interest a little bit more?
O’ROURKE: Well ...
CRAWFORD: Or hard to tell?
O’ROURKE: It’s hard to tell. But what they reckon is those fish can smell blood in the water miles away. Mostly when you're cleaning. But there's a lot of tidal movement out there too, you know? You could be drifting along with the tides.
CRAWFORD: Mostly what I was trying to get to, was whether or not the boat by itself with no cleaning had a different kind of response from the White Pointers, compared to the boat with cleaning?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. Well, I can't tell.
CRAWFORD: Ok. When the switch turned on - was it a gradual increase in the numbers that you saw over years, or was it rapidly up to a consistently high level?
O’ROURKE: I think the first year, and the next few after that, they were quite common around here.
CRAWFORD: So, it increased fairly quickly?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, fairly quickly.
CRAWFORD: It went from none to ...
O’ROURKE: Exactly. It went from one season ... I had that wee boat for eighteen years before I bought the Tequila. So, it just went from one season to all of a sudden the next year they just appeared. And then after that, there was quite a few of them around.
CRAWFORD: And mostly Level 3? Showing Interest when you saw them?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Maybe the occasional Level 1 Observation or Level 2 Drive-By. Any with Intensity? Any White Pointers come up and really give you a go, one way or another?
O’ROURKE: No, no. Except for that time I was cleaning in Deadman's here.
CRAWFORD: Alright, let’s separate that out, because right now if we're just focussing mostly on the Titi Islands ...
O’ROURKE: Just out of the Bay here, the number of times I've seen them - they come round, circle round the boat. But there was no aggressive behaviour from them that I picked up, you know? No bumping of the boat, or anything else. They just circled around, and maybe when I was cleaning a skeleton they might have been maybe cruising by and snatching onto that, I don't know. But there was no aggressive behaviour that I saw. Never, never, no.
CRAWFORD: Any ultra-curious stuff, like poking their heads out of the water?
O’ROURKE: No, no. I never seen any fish do that. Pretty close to the boat, and fin out of the water, But never actually any contact.
CRAWFORD: Or the head up with the eye out of the water?
O’ROURKE: Not really, not that I can remember. I don't remember any eyeballing going on at all.
CRAWFORD: Ok. Did you ever see any White Pointers within either Halfmoon Bay or Horseshoe Bay? See them yourself?
O’ROURKE: Not right in Halfmoon Bay, but just around the corner at Deadman's Beach. Just around the point here, where we use to stop and clean fish.
CRAWFORD: Deadman's was a cleaning station?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Several people used it?
O’ROURKE: Yep. And that's when I did have an encounter with one. He come up and [schneckled??] on to the back of the rudder.
CRAWFORD: Let's lay that one out now. Roughly when was this?
O’ROURKE: Ah, that was probably ... this would have been way before the Shark diving cages were anywhere around.
CRAWFORD: Late 1990s, 2000s?
O’ROURKE: No, no. When did I first see it, we reckoned? It was about 2005. So, it was a few years after that, a couple of years after that. We were cleaning gear, cleaning in Deadman's ...
CRAWFORD: You got to Dead Man's Bay. Were you cleaning fish on your way there?
O’ROURKE: Possibly, could have been. No, actually ... the [Hilda J??] didn't have an auto pilot, so I always used to just steam, and then I'd stop.
CRAWFORD: So, you weren't cleaning on the way. This gets to the whole idea about whether the White Pointers follow the fishing boats. But in this case, it potentially would have been less of an issue, because you motored there directly without cleaning en route?
O’ROURKE: Yep. Stopped. And then he come around.
CRAWFORD: He came around even before you started cleaning at Dead Man's?
O’ROURKE: Well, you pull straight up, anchor up, and then you start cleaning. I didn't pull up, and look for a Shark, you know? You're busy. You pull up, and you start cleaning. On the [Hilda J??], I used to stand out at the back of the boat - I had my cleaning tub there. I'd be facing aft, and this fish was swimming around then.
CRAWFORD: When you first saw it, it was Level 3 - doing the circling?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. And then he come up, and grabbed onto the rudder. Had it with quite a bit of force. That was the only aggressive time I've had with those Sharks. Then the same thing happened, in the same place, the next year. I don't know if it was the same fish. But the same thing - I stood in the same area, cleaning a fish ...
CRAWFORD: A year later, and the same thing happened to you?
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep. And this fish come up and [whack!] onto the back of the rudder. Gave it a shake and carried on.
CRAWFORD: Carried on circling, or carried on away?
O’ROURKE: I don't know if he carried on circling. He might have just buggered off somewhere. Maybe he busted a tooth, and went to see a dentist or something. Because it was the bronze rudder.
CRAWFORD: Were there scrape marks on the rudder afterwards?
O’ROURKE: Yep. There was a wee scrape mark on the rudder. I noticed when I put it up on the slip, not long after that.
CRAWFORD: Ok.And those encounters were both at Dead Man's Bay? That was a cleaning station for several fishermen?
O’ROURKE: Yep. A few of us used to call in there, and clean our fish.
5. WHITE POINTER ENCOUNTERS - EXPERIENCES OF OTHERS
CRAWFORD: During those early days, do you remember the old-timers saying anything about the White Pointers at all? About places you needed to be careful, or certain times?
O’ROURKE: No. The only thing I can remember is old [Davey Waitiri??] who was fishing a lot around Ruapuke way. I think he might have seen bigger Sharks around there, possibly. I remember him telling me a story about when his Father had the boat that he ended up with, the [Rex??]. They were steaming along, and his Father felt a bit of tug on the wheel or something. [chuckles] When they put it up on the slip, there was this big ... it was like a big fish had grabbed onto the rudder.
CRAWFORD: That was while they were steaming?
O'ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Not anchored?
O’ROURKE: No. That's what they said. I mean, it was quite a big boat. It was probably a chain-drive kind of thing.
CRAWFORD: It was an older boat?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was quite an older boat. She's not around anymore, the Rex. But I remember him telling me that story. And when they put it up on the slip, there had been a bit of a gouge on the rudder. Where this big fish must have come up, and had a bit of a honk on her. That's when he was just a boy.
CRAWFORD: Any teeth embedded?
O’ROURKE: I can't remember if it was a tooth embedded there, or if it was just a big bite mark there.
CRAWFORD: They didn't actually see what did it?
O’ROURKE: No. But they reckon ... the Old Man felt this little tug on the wheel when they were steaming along. [chuckles] Well, that's the story. I don't know, but it’s possible I suppose. And especially if there's bite marks, in what would have been probably a wooden rudder too.
CRAWFORD: Ok. I'd like to know what you've heard from other people, especially before the cage dive operations started out there. Were there other people fishing around the Titi Islands as you were?
O’ROURKE: Blue Codding? Yes.
CRAWFORD: Did those other people generally have the same kind of experiences you had?
O’ROURKE: I think so, yeah.
CRAWFORD: Did anybody describe any notable or different experiences?
O’ROURKE: As in aggressive behaviour?
CRAWFORD: Doesn't have to be, but it could be.
O’ROURKE: I've heard of one of those White Pointers taking a Mollymawk. You know, coming out of the water, and snatching a Mollymawk. I've heard of one of them grabbing onto the front of a boat. They must have been stationary, maybe.
CRAWFORD: Grabbing the keel?
O’ROURKE: The front of the boat, the bow - snatched onto that. So, that's quite aggressive. This boat must have been just stationary.
CRAWFORD: Do you remember who that was?
O’ROURKE: That might have been Johnny Leask.
CRAWFORD: Any other instances that might have been Level 4s? Were there any incidences with the Pāua divers that you heard of?
O’ROURKE: I heard about one Pāua diver, there was a story that they'd swum past and there was half a Seal there.
CRAWFORD: That would have been a Drive-By, plus some extra evidence. Were there Pāua divers working the Titi Islands back then, back in the day?
O’ROURKE: Yes, yep.
CRAWFORD: Did Pāua divers start to see more of the White Pointers when you guys, the Codpotters, noticed that increase?
O’ROURKE: I cannot tell you that. There was one guy I know, he did see one.
CRAWFORD: I was just wondering because when they're diving, they're not dealing with struggling fish on a line or fish cleaning.
O'ROURKE: No.
CRAWFORD: They're just freediving in the water, harvesting their Pāuas.
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: So, I'm wondering is it maybe even possible that the Cod fishermen had more interaction and more reason for interaction? That they would have seen the increase in White Pointers - before the Pāua divers. I'm just trying to put it all together.
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
6. EFFECTS OF CAGE TOUR DIVE OPERATIONS
CRAWFORD: When do you recall that Shark cage diving started in and around these parts? How many years ago, do you figure?
O’ROURKE: I would have thought about five years ago, those guys started up those cages. But you said what - eight years ago?
CRAWFORD: It was after Clinton Duffy from DOC was here, doing his tagging on the White Pointers. At this point, we're in the middle of a two-year period where DOC has granted permits to the cage dive operations. We're just at the beginning of Year 2. But before Year 1, there were no permits required. There was nothing saying you could or couldn't do that.
O’ROURKE: So those guys just stepped in, and away they went. There was no permits.
CRAWFORD: Originally, both Peter and Mike operated a little bit here and a little bit there in the region. And then they both naturally gravitated to Edwards Island.
O’ROURKE: 'Cause this is where all the sightings were.
CRAWFORD: It wasn't just the sightings. They also tried berleying around different places in the region. They say it was a combination of consistency getting the White Pointers to the cage dive boat, and of boating conditions. Depending on the wind, they had good options for anchoring in the lee at Edwards. When the permits came into effect, it said "You can only do cage tour dive operations immediately around Edwards Island. Not any place else." When you are out there in the Titi Islands, do you ever see the cage dive boats doing their thing?
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: They show up, they anchor - then what happens?
O’ROURKE: They berley. Are they allowed to berley now?
CRAWFORD: Yes. It's allowed in the permit.
O’ROURKE: They aren't allowed to feed them, are they? So obviously, they chuck that berley over the side. Probably get their punters ready in wetsuits and that. I've never been aboard, but I can imagine. And then they sit and wait. And wait for a Shark to come around.
CRAWFORD: I don't think they go into the cage until the White Pointers arrive.
O’ROURKE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. They sit around in wetsuits and berley up.
CRAWFORD: And when a White Pointer does come around, into the cage they go. The important thing that you said was, berley as an attractant. You also said - and I think it's one of the things that most people don't realize - that under the conditions of the permit, they are not allowed to actually feed the White Pointers. Back in the day, before the permits, they could. But that was part of their business model, in terms of whether you need to feed the White Pointers in order to have them stay engaged around the cage. Obviously, they need to have the Sharks come close. It’s not as if they're necessarily trying to provoke them into a feeding frenzy or something. Regardless, the current permits prohibit feeding. It's a fine mince berley only, now.
O'ROURKE. Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That is basically what the cage dive operations in this part of the world are like. Now we're going to focus on the effects of those operations. First question - do you think there's an important and lasting effect of the cage dive operations on the White Pointers? Or on the risks of White Pointer interactions with Humans?
O’ROURKE: Let's put it this way - if I was a Pāua diver, I wouldn't be too happy about it.
CRAWFORD: Why not?
O’ROURKE: Yeah, sure - they put them in a cage, they drop them into the water. And I think everybody thinks that same thing "You can't get me, but here I am."
CRAWFORD: You think the White Pointers see the Humans inside the cage?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. It’s a bit of a tease "You can't get me, but here I am." Is that steering the Shark in a way that he can't get that guy there - but he does see a Pāua diver over there or something, getting his Pāuas? And he thinks "Well, I might have a go at you now." But is there any facts? Off the top of my head, I'd be thinking "Yeah, if I was a Pāua diver I wouldn't like it." Doesn't worry me 'cause I'm not a Pāua diver. Maybe you think that the Shark's not really that interested in that diver. As in, nobody's been bitten yet. And he's not interested in the guy in the cage. But he's gonna have a bit of a poke, and he's maybe naturally curious. But yeah, I'm getting back to it. If I was a Pāua diver, I wouldn't like that. I'm just trying to think off the top of my head. Wouldn't anybody have that sort of answer, Steve? Wouldn't anybody think like that? To say that, no it’s got nothing to do with a Shark wanting to go for a Pāua diver, after he's just seen that. There's that possibility.
CRAWFORD: You asked an important question. You said something like "Wouldn't most people think that there was a concern?" There are some people who are quite strong in thinking there is a concern. And there are other people who have similarly strong thoughts, that there is no real concern. So, there are a variety of different opinions.
O’ROURKE: For sure.
CRAWFORD: Part of my job here is to break the issue into its parts, so we can understand more clearly what the concerns are.
O’ROURKE: Yep.
CRAWFORD: Let's start with the simplest part. Do you think that White Pointers would associate the smell of food - which is what berley is, it’s not actual food but the smell of food. Do you think that the White Pointers would associate the smell of food with the place, Edwards Island? That's another way of asking, do you think that there are more White Pointers around Edwards Island now, because of the Shark cage dive operations - than would have been there, if there were no cage dive operations?
O’ROURKE: I don't think so, no. Is there more Sharks around Deadman's Beach, because we clean our fish there - than there would be if we weren't cleaning our fish there?
CRAWFORD: That is an extremely good question. Do you think there are more White Pointers at Dead Man's? More than there would be if fishermen didn't clean their fish there?
O’ROURKE: Well, these cage divers are going there because they're finding more of a concentration of Sharks there, aren't they? So, they've been going there, there, there - but they've found if they stick around Edwards, you've probably got a 90% chance of seeing a Shark. More than they would, if they were over at Te Marama's or Bench Island.
CRAWFORD: That's a good observation, and a lot of people haven't made that link. Remember when I said, in the early days - even before most people knew what the hell was going on - the cage dive operators poked around and tried here and there. And they found more White Pointers around Edwards Island, than around the other places they tried.
O’ROURKE: So, whether they're berleying up there or not, there's a concentration of Sharks there, because that's why they're going there.
CRAWFORD: Would White Pointers that had experienced cage dive operations, hang around Edwards Island more than White Pointers that might also happen to be in the region that had not experienced the cage dive operations? Would the ones that have smelled the berley stick around Edwards Island more?
O’ROURKE: And wait for tomorrow, for that cage diver to come back? The regularity of a boat coming in each day?
CRAWFORD: Not the boat. The smell of the food and the place. Don't worry about the boat right now. Let's imagine that we could just magically dump berley at that location, without even a boat being around. Would over time the White Pointers associate that place with ...
O’ROURKE: A feeding station? Yeah.
CRAWFORD: But would they hang around there more?
O’ROURKE: I think he would, wouldn't he?
CRAWFORD: Remember I said I'm going to start simple and grow more complex? Now we're going to add a boat, but it could be any boat - not specifically the cage dive boats. Just any boat. Do you think that the White Pointers would associate the smell of food, with the occurrence of a boat? So, if another boat came in - any boat - that they would go up and check out that boat? Respond more than it would have, if hadn't experienced the cage tour diving operations?
O’ROURKE: Possibly, yes.
CRAWFORD: Have you heard of anybody going out to the Titi Islands, or Edwards Island in particular, just being there without any fishing or anything like that - and the White Pointers still come around them?
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: Do you think that was happening because there were more White Pointers around in general? Or do you think it’s happening because the White Pointers that have experienced the cage dive operations made an association between the smell of food and boats in general? Not Peter's boat or Mike's boat in particular - just the presence of a boat in general?
O’ROURKE: But they were coming and checking our boats out before the Shark divers.
CRAWFORD: That's why your experience is so important here, because you have history there before the operations. What I'm saying here is - are they more frequently checking out boats now, because of the cage dive operations?
O’ROURKE: I don't know. I'd have to have a wee think about that.
CRAWFORD: That's fine. Here's another important question. Some people have said that the White Pointers can, in some way, distinguish Peter's boat or Mike's boat, the cage tour dive operator's boats specifically.
O’ROURKE: I would believe that, yeah. Certain vibrations and that.
CRAWFORD: Could be motor vibrations or sounds. Some people have said even the colour of the anti-fouling paint on the hull, or whatever. The idea that the White Pointers have the capability to discriminate and learn that the smell of food is associated with those specific cage dive boats.
O'ROURKE: Yep, yep. Quite possible.
CRAWFORD: Yes, it’s possible. But do you think it’s probable? Do you think that it is likely?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. I can imagine they're probably very smart animals.
CRAWFORD: Why do you think they would be able to make that kind of association? Do you have any reason to think that they would be behaving with specific regards to those specific boats? Have you ever heard of situations where the White Pointers were responding to the cage dive boats at different locations when they weren't cage diving?
O’ROURKE: Well, put it this way ... not that I've ever been Tuna-ing, but apparently some boats catch Tuna, and some boats don't. Is it a vibration thing or something? You know what I'm trying to say?
CRAWFORD: I do. You're not the first person to bring that up. But let's bring it back more to Anthony O'Rourke's experience.
O’ROURKE: My experience, when I had the smaller boat, the [Hilda J??] - they were always around it.
CRAWFORD: Always around when you were Codpotting?
O’ROURKE: Yep. Always had these Sharks hanging around. When I moved into the next boat that I've got now, the Tequila, I used to see the odd one around that first year I had it. And then maybe ... I don't know, maybe something’s gone wrong with the boat, maybe there's a wee electrical leak or something that's coming off that boat. 'Cause they don't circle around the Tequila anymore.
CRAWFORD: They used to - but not now?
O’ROURKE: They used to, but now they don't. I think I've got a wee electrical leak or something. Something that pisses them off, and they don't come to the surface and circle round. But the first year I had it, they did.
CRAWFORD: Why do you think it might be an electrical issue?
O’ROURKE: Just a feeling. I've heard that they are very sensitive to electricity or something like that, isn't it?
CRAWFORD: If there was something electrical ... when you talk about a leak on a fishing boat like the Tequila, how might an electrical leak happen?
O’ROURKE: I'm not too sure about that. Something to do with my electronics or something. Something's not quite wired up right. Like on my rudder, there's a sacrificial zinc between the two metals.
CRAWFORD: Explain to me what that is.
O’ROURKE: Well, when you get two metals in the water, they react. Something to do with the electricity between them. I'm not too sure about the whole deal. So, what we do is, we'll put a sacrificial zinc - which is an anode - bolt that on, and that will disintegrate between the metals.
CRAWFORD: It will disintegrate faster than the rudder metals that are on either side?
O’ROURKE: Yep, yep. So, we use these things there it’s called electrical ...
CRAWFORD: Sacrifice. That this thing degrades faster, to protect the other metals?
O’ROURKE: Yeah. I'm not too schooled up on it.
CRAWFORD: But there's something electric going on in your boat, in terms of the anode and cathode flow of electricity?
O’ROURKE: Yep. So, they don't hang around the Tequila anymore. I have seen them from a distance - like when we were handlining a while ago. And I've seen them come up, and it would be two or three fathoms underwater and I've seen a big flash. But they don't come up round the surface, and circle round. Which is all good, ‘cause I don't need White Pointers circling around when I've got a whole lot of people handlining. So, it’s worked out well. But I do believe they're probably very sensitive to that sort of thing. I don't think it’s the colour of your antifouling.
CRAWFORD: There are going to be people reading through this O'Rourke transcript, and they're going to read about this observation, and they are going to say "Oh. Maybe there's something here. Maybe there's something we could actually use, or learn more about."
O’ROURKE: Yeah.
CRAWFORD: There's something else that we need to follow up with, just before we move on. You said that not only was it the difference between the [Hilda J??] and the Tequila, but even for the Tequila itself - there was a time that the White Pointers were coming around your boat, and then a change and a time they did not. Was there a change in the Tequila, before and after kind of thing? Did you get a rudder repair, or did you change something else?
O’ROURKE: No. Just the wee leak I might have somewhere through the boat, which I've got to get an electrician to look into. I do know the zinc on the back of the rudder frizzes out pretty quick. I've got to keep an eye on it.
CRAWFORD: Ok. The next question is about Humans in the cage. Do you think that the White Pointers associate the smell of food with the Sharks' visual or the chemosensory or the electromagnetic sense of a Human submerged in the water? Such that, if they see a Human in the water someplace else, that they are more likely to pay more attention to it?
O’ROURKE: To that particular Human?
CRAWFORD: No, Humans in general. Any Human.
O’ROURKE: Humans. Well, here I go back to it. Nobody's been bitten yet, have they?
CRAWFORD: No. But remember that Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, Level 4? Do you think that a White Pointer that has experienced the cage tour dive operations ...
O’ROURKE: He's going to go over and snag himself a Pāua diver?
CRAWFORD: Not necessarily. What I'm saying is, if that Shark normally would perhaps see, but never approach - that it might now approach? Or if that Shark would have otherwise done a Drive-By, but now it moves up to Interest or Circling? Or what would have been a Level 3 gets bumped up to a Level 4 - because of the White Pointer having associated the smell of food with the presence of Humans?
O’ROURKE: Because of the berley in the water?
CRAWFORD: Yes, because of the berley smell from the cage dive operation, and association between that smell and Humans.
O’ROURKE: Yes, it’s quite possible.
CRAWFORD: I know it’s possible. I'm asking for Mr O'Rourke's opinion. Do you think it’s likely? And you're allowed to say you don't know, if you want.
O’ROURKE: He’s probably a very smart fish, that Shark. He's not that silly.
CRAWFORD: Why do you figure that White Pointers are smart? A lot of people think they're just a plain old fish - nothing particularly bright about them.
O’ROURKE: Well, they've evolved millions of years to be there, haven't they? They must have some sort of smartness in them, that they've evolved to be here today. So, for him to not make the distinction between a Human and a Seal - it doesn't seem like he'd be that silly. They must know the difference between a Seal and a Human. When Humans have been attacked, it’s maybe a curiosity thing. Don't tell me he mistook that Human for a Seal. I mean, it's possible ...
CRAWFORD: But do you think that exposure to cage diving would have an effect on increasing the intensity or number of times they would interact with a Human on or in the water, later on?
O'ROURKE: I don't know.
CRAWFORD: Ok. That is a perfectly acceptable answer.
O'ROURKE: I know what you're trying to get at. But if you know what I'm trying to say ... I don't think he's that stupid a fish, that he can't make the distinction between a guy in a wetsuit and a Seal. Do you think that's gonna make him more - that he's going to go over there, and snap onto that Pāua diver?
CRAWFORD: That is ultimately the question in the news right now. That's why the Pāua Dive Association is taking DOC to court about the cage dive operations. That is exactly what they're saying.
O’ROURKE: Well, if it was ... this Shark diving's been going on for eight years, you say. So, if it was going to be such a big association and really point the Sharks into going to more of an association with that diver, with that food ... don't you think there'd be a whole lot of attacks by now on Pāua divers? You know, I'm just saying off the top of my head. The statistics of saying, "Well, since this burelying's going on, all of a sudden these Pāua divers have been hit by these Sharks." But at the moment, nobody's been bitten - not that I know.
CRAWFORD: Your mind is going a mile a minute, here Anthony. And you're doing the same kind of thinking that I'm doing, and that other people are doing. And you just opened up another door. Given the fact that the cage dive operations have been happening for roughly eight years, there are a couple of important factors that relate to what the effect would be - over the longer time period. It's very smart that you bring that up. Within the season, how many times do the White Pointers that come to the cage dive operations, how many of them are repeat customers? If you are a Shark that's just moving through Foveaux Strait, and it’s a one-off visit then you're gone - I think most people, including Scientists would say, the association wouldn't likely be that strong. But if for whatever reason a White Pointer experiences the cage dive operation over and over and over again - that repeated experience could be a very important factor in trying to figure out what the individual risks would be. But these White Pointers are going off, some of them to very great distances, to very different locations - and then coming right back here which means one year, after another, after another - you can get the accumulation of these association effects. It might be the case that maybe in Year 1 you don't see any association effects, maybe it’s not until Year 3. But that's a very important factor you raised there about exposure through time. Sorry, sometimes I go off on these little digressions.
O’ROURKE: No, it’s all good, it’s all good.
Copyright © 2020 Anthony O’Rourke and Steve Crawford